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Who Is The Holy Spirit

What or who is the Holy Spirit?

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 ---scott on 7/31/10
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Warwick, Ex 3:14 (1)

Since it appears that you are unwilling or unequipped to discuss the Hebrew and Greek of Ex 3:14 and John 8:58 (no doubt why you've pulled out the French?) and rather attempt to beat up on the Witnesses (You were caught dishonestly misrepresenting their 'footnotes' from the very beginning) let me just remind you that many non-Witness translators agree with them. Perhaps you can discredit all of them with a discussion of their footnotes.

"I will be what I will be." MO.
"I Will Become Whatsoever I please." Rotherham

Cont.
---scott on 8/10/10


Warwick,

Since you brought up the French you might be interested to know:
Note Not "As God" - just God.

"L'Eternel dit Mose: Vois, je te fais Dieu pour Pharaon..."
"The Eternal said to Moses: You, - I am making you God for Pharoah..." Ex 7:1, French: Louis Segond (1910)

"Et l'ternel dit Mose: Vois, je t'ai fait Dieu pour le Pharaon..."
"And the Eternal said to Moses: You, - I have made you God for the Pharoah" Ex 7:1, French Darby

It's just a title. Sharing the same title is no indication of equality.
---scott on 8/10/10


Warwick John 8:58 (2)

"I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham." Salkinson and Ginsberg, NT in Hebrew

"I existed before Abraham was born." The Authentic New Testament, Hugh J. Schonfield

"[O]r, I have been," (margin) NASV, editions of 1960-1973. (Later removed!)

"I was before Abraham." The New Testament In The Language Of Today, William G. Beck

"I was alive before Abraham was born." The Simple English Bible, 1981

Also see: The Living Bible, Kenneth Taylor, 1971, The Concise Gospel and The Acts, Christianson, 1973, The Original New Testament, Schonfield, 1985, The Complete Gospels Annotated Scholars Version, Miller, 1994.
---scott on 8/10/10


The Word of Elohim has gone out from within Him-Within Him existed-now exist-never ceases to exist.
Elohim[Powers]spoken.
The Word became flesh-two fold-(Word in Flesh)Flesh ceased and resurrected-Word of Elohim-is life and never ceased.
Elohim speaks-those who believe what His has spoken-believe and bearwitness by confessing As The Word in Flesh witness-repeats and performs the Word spoken.
Elohim accomplishes all He said He would.
The Flesh that Housed His word ceased and was resurrected-by Him.(Holy Spirit)
Elohims Word---never ceases-Immanuel-Christ-Yehoshuah-is eternal.
Proven as stated:
"I am the Beginning and the End"-These words became flesh-repeats as witness-the word spoken from beginning.Is 46:10
---char on 8/10/10


The Holy Spirit is The third person of the Trinity through whom God acts, reveals His will, empowers individuals, and discloses His personal presence in the OT and NT....The term "Holy Spirit" in the OT is found only in Ps. 51:11, Isa. 63:10-11. References to the spirit of God, however, are abundant. In one sense the Spirit of God is depicted as a mighty wind. God uses this agent in two ways as a destructive force that dries up the waters [Hos. 13:15] as the power of God in gathering clouds to bring the refreshing rain [1 Kings 18:45]. "Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of hosts" [Zech:4:6]. Sometimes, the Spirit came upon individuals mightily and altered their normal behavior.
---catherine on 8/10/10




Scott you are wrong John 10:33 is the Jews reaction to exactly what Jesus claimed. Jesus says "my Father, I give them eternal life, I and the Father are one, I am God's Son, the Father is in me and I in the Father" "Again they tried to seize him..."

Jesus' did not call them Gods but gods. He did not say they were The God 'Ho Theos', as Thomas called Jesus. See Psalm 82:6 "I said you are all gods ('Elohiym') a title used of God and of men e.g. those holding the office of Judge, acting as God's representatives, like Moses! Jesus was goading them! But they were not fooled as Jesus had said, in a number of ways, that He is God.

Christ is not blaspheming by calling Himself God because God calls Him that.
---Warwick on 8/10/10


///If you are referring to the Son of God (the Word) at what point did he come 'from within' the Father?///
In Beginning---
-Heb 11:13 ...the worlds were framed by the Word of God
Gen1:3(within this time-frame)
And "Elohiym[Powers]"said...light exist and light existed,
Before spoken----
Jn1:1
In the Beginning was the Word....

///But none of these names implied that the possessor was himself God.
---scott on 8/9/10///
Completely agree-Only Jesus Christ-Immanuel-God with us-is Yehovah's Word in flesh.
Jn1:1-And the Word became Flesh...

There is no other-name that is named- and no other that can declared this fact.


---char on 8/10/10


Scott, the notes I referred to are in the NWT reference Bible, as I said! You musn't have a copy!

Exodus 3:14 NWT reference Bible "..God said to Moses "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be" from Hebrew 'Eh-yeh Asher Eh-yeh' admitting this is 'ego eimi ho on' in Greek. The verse continues "I shall prove to be has sent you" which is a translation of the same Hebrew 'Eh-yeh' which as the notes show is 'ego eimi' in Greek- 'I am' in English

The Kingdom Interlinear (1969 and 1985) both agree that 'ego eimi' means 'I am' in English. And it admits that Jesus used 'I am' about Himself. Therefore when Jesus called Himself the 'I am' the Jews desired to kill Him for blasphemy, for good reason-to them!
---Warwick on 8/9/10


Scott, the NWT translates 'ego eimi' as 'I am', referring to Jesus 18 times, but not at John 8:58!

But your Interlinear translates 'ego eimi' as 'I am' including John 8:58! This deception was obviously done as honest translation shows Jesus is the 'I am' of Exodus 3:14.

Likewise John 14:14 has been deceitfully mistranslated. Again your Bible does not agree with your Interlinnear which says "If ever you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do. But the NWT Bible reads "If you ask anything in my name I will do it." The Interlinnear shows we can pray to Jesus. However the JW's say we must not pray to Jesus so they have incorrectly translated their own Interlinnear, removing the first 'me.'
---Warwick on 8/9/10


Scott, translations convey meaning not word for word. Consider the following: "Qu'est-que c'est cette maison?- literally 'What is it that it is that house?' Thankfully translators render this as 'What is that house?'

Likewise 'like' is added to give correct meaning. Moses was a falible sinful man, summoned and dismissed by Pharoah. Nonetheless God performed wonders through Him. The idea God was actually calling Moses God is an invention of desperation.

Notice Moses was taking instruction from Jesus at Exodus 3:14.

1 Corinthians 10:4 speaking of Moses et al "..and drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
---Warwick on 8/9/10




"I have made you like God to Pharoah" does not make Moses God-"like" does not mean one and the same.." Ex 7:1 Warwick (1)

Do your homework, look at the Hebrew. The Hebrew text does not say "like" God, it simply says "God". If so what is the Hebrew word for "like" at Ex 7:1?

Moses does share this exact same title (Elohim) with Jehovah. But they are not both the Almighty God are they?

Words such as "like" or "as" are translational choices based on an understanding of the context and the relative meaning of the title. But the 'parent' or 'source' language [Hebrew] just says "God".

Cont.
---scott on 8/9/10


"I have made you like God to Pharoah" does not make Moses God-"like" does not mean one and the same.." Ex 7:1 Warwick (2)

There are other examples. John 10:33 describes the Jews as saying "We are stoning you for blasphemy because you...make yourself God" (their claim, not his). But notice Jesus' response to them. it's most enlightening.

"Is it not written in your law, [citing Ps 82:6] I said: - 'You are gods'?"
[Note- Not 'like' gods]...

Further Christ said "If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came...Do you say to me I blaspheme because I said, I am - God's Son?"
---scott on 8/9/10


Scott, Exodus 7:1 "I have made you like God to Pharoah" does not make Moses God-"like" does not mean one and the same, the opposite. God can say this as readers already know what like and God mean.

To answer your question "Does sharing the title 'Elohim' with Jehovah make Moses the Almighty God?" No because Moses does not share the title with God.

Neither is Moses the Creator, the Redeemer, the Alpha and the Omega, the I am, the God. But Jesus is Almighty God because these are all the definite article, exclusive titles.

As my earlier blog proves your own JW literature shows Jesus called Himself "I am" of Exodus 3:14 and they desired to stone Him for blasphemy.
---Warwick on 8/9/10


"From beginning confirms the Word came from within Yehovah. Char

If you are referring to the Son of God (the Word) at what point did he come 'from within' the Father?

Immanuel-

It was not unusual for Hebrew names to include within them the word for God (theophoric names) or even an abbreviated form of Gods personal name. For example:

Eliathah means God Has Come
Jehu means Jehovah Is He
Elijah means My God Is Jehovah.
Samuel means: "Name of God"

But none of these names implied that the possessor was himself God.
---scott on 8/9/10


Scott-//examine how the 'title' itself- 'God' (Elohim) is used throughout the bible.---"No other God beside me" Ex 20:3. But angels and men are referred to as God(s).///
(Titled-gods)

Understood-However-I agree with MarkV.
The context from beginning confirms the Word came from within Yehovah.
By the context written-and from the perspective it was written in.Moses name Means "drawn" but Jesus/Immanuel-Name/title means-God with us.Immanuel is given title and Name of Yehovah for all Mankind-because-He is the Word of Yehovah in flesh.Moses was given the title used to Pharoah(only)-He spoke the word but was not the Word.
Jn 1:1 In the Beginning-God (Yehovah)Word before it proceeded out of His mouth-is Spirit.
---char on 8/9/10


//The Jews clearly knew Jesus was claiming to be the I AM = God. Thus in V.59 they went to stone him for blasphemy!
---Warwick on 8/9/10//

Agree-Amen.
---char on 8/9/10


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Warwick (1)

Hopefully you've had a nice long talk with your 'friend' about the "footnote...which says the Hebrew for the name of God here is properly rendered into Greek as "Ego eimi" "I am."

Not there is it?

That lengthy footnote includes: "The reference here is not to God's self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others".

Ehyeh asher ehyeh= "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be"

Notice vs 12 (just 2 verses earlier) where your Holman Bible renders 'ehyeh' "I will certainly be..." Not I am.

While vs 14 is a 'designation', God's name appears in the very next verse "...Jehovah..sent me to you."
---scott on 8/9/10


Warwick (2)

While the Greek Septuagint (LXX) renders Ex 3:14 as "ego eimi ho on' this is not the statement made by Christ at John 8:58.

If Jesus were claiming the divine title, the Greek words "Ho On" would be included as in the LXX for Ex 3:14.

But Jesus instead just used "ego", the simple pronoun "I" and "eimi", the simple verb "am". "Eimi" can also be translated "was" or "have been" according to Strong's Concordance.

"I was alive before Abraham was born!" The Simple English Bible

"I have existed before Abraham was born." Moffatt
---scott on 8/9/10


///"Are you saying His Words are not equal to Him?" char-///Not sure what you mean by this.///

Yehovahs' Word existed within Him(beginning)proceeds out of His mouth-(spoken by prophets)and becomes Flesh on earth-(Christ)then returns back without void(Resurrection).Is 55:11,Jn1:15,Jn 14:16
Yet,from what I am seeing in your explanations(?) you don't believe-Yehovahs Word is equal to Yehovah when His Word became flesh.(Immanuel-God with us Matt 1:18-26)Yehovah is Spirit-In the Beginning-He spoke-His Word proceeded out Proving who He said He is(I am-I am)Ex 3:14,Jn 14:11-20.In the beginning-was the Word.The death and resurrection Proved,believing in Yehovahs Words(Christ)gives eternal Life.1Cor 15:45,Jn 17,Jn7:14-Gen3:15-Rev20:10
---char on 8/9/10


"Are you saying His Words are not equal to Him?" char

Not sure what you mean by this.

If this is your question- The scriptures are clear that 'God so loved the world that he sent his Son' (the 'Word'). And he is (and will continue to be) all of the things that your reference from Isaiah includes.

Observing mankind's struggle with sin and death before coming to earth as the long awaited Messiah, then sacrificing his precious life for us and returning to heaven in glory after his resurrection is awe-inspiring to contemplate. (And fully supported in scripture).

Our everlasting lives are dependent on faith in Christ and in his ransom sacrifice. This is truly an undeserved kindness.
---scott on 8/9/10


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Context- MarkV

Yes. Since the Hebrew text clearly says "I will make you God to Pharaoh" we have to examine what was happening at the time those curious words were spoken...the context.

We also have to examine how the 'title' itself- 'God' (Elohim) is used throughout the bible.

The OT reveals Jehovah in strictly monotheistic terms. "No other God beside me" Ex 20:3. But angels and men are referred to as God(s).

So there must be some relative or qualitative way that the 'title' can be used.

Regarding Moses the Geneva Study Bible says that this indicates:

"I have given you power and authority to speak in my name and to execute my judgments on him."
---scott on 8/9/10


Scott, didn't know you were speaking about Ex. (chapters) 4-10 since you also gave Ex. 7:1. Another thing, the chapters have their own context depending on what is said in the passages. But in your statement of 8/8/10 you said,
"But the context (Ex 4-10) reveals that Moses acted as Jehovah's spokesperson, as a representative with great authority over Pharaoh."
And then you said on 8/9/10,
"Does sharing the title 'Elohim' with Jehovah make Moses the Almighty God?"
First you said, as Jehovah's spokeperson, and now you say, sharing the same title. So was he sharing the same title are was he speaking as Jehovah spokeperson? He was not sharing the same title, he was a spokeperson for God.
---MarkV. on 8/9/10


Agree with Mark V. within this context you have not explain---
scott on 8/7/10
///Since Christ Jesus said: "My Father, which gave them to me, is greater (meizon) than all..." (John 10:2)///

Here is how it is written in NWT--
Jn10:28-30
And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means Ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them OUT OF MY HAND. WHAT MY Father has given me is something greater than all other things and no one can snatch then OUT OF THE HAND OF THE FATHER.I and the Father are ONE.

The Word of Yehovah comes out of His mouth and are performed by Them in Flesh-Yeshua-to be return back to Him without void.
---char on 8/9/10


Scott you endeavour to seperate God's word from God. How can anyone show disrespect to the word of God without it showing like disrespect to God. Not possible.

In Biblical terms only God can be blasphemed. Therfore as the the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed He is God.
---Warwick on 8/9/10


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char,

MOST GREAT is the One True God!

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
---aka on 8/9/10


MarkV,

I don't claim to be the 'smartest guy in the room', never have...far from it, but in all honesty, I have no idea what you just posted.

If you dismiss my conclusion about the context of Ex 4-10 (read my post again- 4-10 not 4:10) - chapters four through ten - seven chapters of Exodus) then what is your enlightened answer to the question:

Why did Jehovah 'God' (Elohim) call Moses "God" (Elohim)?

Do you agree with Warwick's conclusion that "Identical titles mean they are one and the same"?.

Does sharing the title 'Elohim' with Jehovah make Moses the Almighty God?
---scott on 8/9/10


Scott, Kingdom Interlinear Translations (1969 and 1985) show Jesus referred to Himself in John 8:58 as 'ego eimi' (I am.)

The 1984 NWT Bible reference regarding Exodus 3:14 translates the Hebrew Eh-yeh Asher Eh-yeh as "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be. It further says this is : "God's own self-designation,... Gr, ego eimi ho on, 'I am The Being," or, 'I am The Existing One', ... 'I am Who I am.'"

The above JW publications together tell us that in calling Himself 'ego eimi' (I am) Jesus was calling himself by God's own self-designation.

The Jews clearly knew Jesus was claiming to be the I AM = God. Thus in V.59 they went to stone him for blasphemy!
---Warwick on 8/9/10


Scott,
///The context reveals that, though Jehovah and Moses shared the exact same title, they were certainly not (by any stretch of the imagination) the same or equal.///

Understood-however-
Yehovah declares the Name and title given to His Word soon to be flesh as Immanuel-God with us.Are you saying His Words are not equal to Him? He confirms His Word spoken out of the prophet-Child born unto us-Everlasting Father-Mightly God etc...
Yehovahs' Word-is eternal everlasting.
Yeshua proves it-by performing every Word spoken.
Yehovah Word in flesh-named and called Immanuel-God with us. The Word inspired down to each letter.
---char on 8/9/10


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Scott your answer to Char had no meaning. First Exodus 4:10 is not saying what you said,
"But the context (Ex 4-10) reveals that Moses acted as Jehovah's spokesperson, as a representative with great authority over Pharaoh." in fact the context is speaking about how Moses was complaining he was slow of speech and slow of tongue. He was afraid to do what God told him to do. God put him streight when He told Moses, that it is Him, God, who made man mouths, who makes the mutes, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind. Not to be afraid of the duties God was going to send him to do. Yet Moses still didn't want to go do what God told him so God got angry with him.
---MarkV. on 8/8/10


Scott, 2: And then you also gave Exodus 7:1, in which no one could conclude, unless they wanted to, that God was making another God. "as God" is not saying another God or a God, but as a God to Pharaoh. He was going to pocess the power and authority which we know was only for a time to complete his duties. God could have done it Himself if he so wanted, but wanted to display to all people that He was the true God not like the gods they worshipped.
---MarkV. on 8/8/10


The Holy Spirit is not an "it". The Holy Ghost Person is "He". He is God. Also called the spirit of God, the spirit of the Lord, and the spirit of Christ, the breath of God, the breath of the Lord, and the breath of Christ. Sometimes he is called Siloah, meaning "Sent". The Holy Spirit Shiloh is called by the personal pronoun "He"(Isaiah 40:13, John 14:26, 15:26, 16:7,8,13-15). Please read Genesis 1:2, 2:7, Matthew 1:18, John 20:22,23.
---Eloy on 8/8/10


Warwick,

You boldly asserted: "To 'stand/sit at God's right hand'...means He is equal with God...ancient custom...signal their equality." Warwick

Christ said "to sit on my right hand and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father." 20:23 KJV

It shall be given.

Are you suggesting that Christ said it 'shall NOT be given' by the father for whom it is prepared? This is silly.

You're just miffed because you were caught with your theological pants down...again.
---scott on 8/8/10


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"You would have us believe that disrespect for the word of God is not disrespect of God!" Warwick

Ding, ding, ding. Winner! Winner!

Exactly the point. Blasphemy or disrespect for the word of God would absolutely show disrespect for God but...

...It certainly does not make it God.

Neither does blasphemy against the Holy Spirit make it God.
---scott on 8/8/10


Scott the Holman Bible dictionary says "in the Biblical context blasphemy is an attitude of disrespect that finds expression in an act directed against the character of God." Therefore to disrespect the character of God or His word is blasphemy. Therefore if the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed, He is God.

You would have us believe that disrespect for the word of God is not disrespect of God!
---Warwick on 8/8/10


"What context are you referring to?" Char

The context related to titles and those who share them.

There is no difference between the Hebrew word 'Elohim' (God) as applied to Jehovah and 'Elohim' (God) as applied to Moses. (Ex 7:1)

If, regarding Moses as 'Elohim', we had no knowledge of the context, we might conclude that Moses is equal to or the same as Jehovah.

But the context (Ex 4-10) reveals that Moses acted as Jehovah's spokesperson, as a representative with great authority over Pharaoh.

The context reveals that, though Jehovah and Moses shared the exact same title, they were certainly not (by any stretch of the imagination) the same or equal.

Context is key.
---scott on 8/8/10


The Holy Spirit is the breath of God
---mike88874 on 8/8/10


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Scott you wrote: "disciples are spoken of as being at Christ's right hand"

I repeatedly asked "Chapter and verse." Eventually you said it was a future prospect. according to Christ, quoting Matt 20:23 which does not speak of them being at Christ's right hand-request rejected, no prospect at all.

BTW to be seated positionally at Jesus right and left (e.g. last supper) does not signify equality but honour. See Luke ch.14- don't ask for these positions...

Conversely "seated at the right hand of God" signifies Jesus, God the Son, alone holds the position of equality and power. No one is seated at his right hand or left. In Stephens vision (future prospect ) no apostles are seen.
---Warwick on 8/8/10


Context, context, context.
---scott on 8/7/10
///Since Christ Jesus said: "My Father, which gave them to me, is greater (meizon) than all..." (John 10:2)///

Here is how it is written in NWT--
Jn10:28-30
And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means Ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them OUT OF MY HAND. WHAT MY Father has given me is something greater than all other things and no one can snatch then OUT OF THE HAND OF THE FATHER.I and the Father are ONE.


Scott-What context are you referring to?


---char on 8/7/10


aka.joseph/Warwick/Mark.V
Do we agree?
Yehovah:God
Yeshua:Word of God
Holy Spirit:Father and Son as One-in Spirit

Blessings to you.
I know My own words,Thayer's word...etc...-all Words of clay....
Yehovah Word is spoken and performed-proceeded out of His mouth-became flesh-according to Yehovah-Himself-will not return void.
Yehovah is complete-He declared-speaking His Word the End from Beginning.

Satan will not confess nor believe this.
All Is accomplished by Yehovah-Himself,through His Word in flesh(Yeshua)-confirmed and agreed in Spirit(The Holy Spirit).
And YES...He is a jealous God-Why else would HIS WORD IN FLESH PERFORM ALL that is instructed to Mankind?----Praising Him-He gets the Glory.
---char on 8/7/10


"There is only one conclusion: The Holy Spirit first has to be God to be blasphemed..." Ernest_1

"[be] sober-minded, chaste, workers at home, kind, being in subjection to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." Titus 2:5 KJV, ASV

Perhaps there is another conclusion to be drawn after all...unless the "word of God" ("the Gospel" *) is also God.


* Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
---scott on 8/7/10


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Scott and David,
I believe you truly love Yehovah.
But I have not seen within your explainations using The Word of God-How all glory through The Word of God does not go back to the Father.
Nor have I witnessed you acknowledging the resurrection of Jesus Christ-only His death.(Is 55:11 word return without void)
God is Spirit-His Words became flesh-He confirms His Word-Now through His counsel-
The Holy Spirit with us Now.
This is Is 9:6-7

unto us a child is born----What is the childs name?-Yeshua
He will be called Everlasting Father--why?
For humanity to believe in Christ-is believing Yehovah Word is definitive-Forever.He becames Father to them.

Believing what Yehovah said is true-that would be-Yeshua.
---char on 8/7/10


HOLY SPIRIT: A fully Divine Person in the Godhead?

We all need to reread prayerfully and humbly what Jesus had to say in Matthew 12:31-32:

"All blasphemy" - against God the Father or Son will be forgiven, - but not that against the Holy Spirit!

There is only one conclusion: The Holy Spirit first has to be God to be blasphemed like Father or Son, but a separate different Person in the Godhead from either Father or Son and certainly NOT inferior!

We can't afford to be mistaken on this serious subject.
---Ernest_1 on 8/7/10


Warwick- your illustration still fails. So you believe that two men are the same age, share the same power and think exactly the same just because they share the same tile- 'King'?

That's what you are saying if you're using this illustration to prove that Jesus is God in Acts 7:55.

Jesus seen standing at God's right hand doesn't make him equal with his Father anymore than seeing two Kings standing next to eachother make them equal.

The fact that they are of the same 'substance' is obvious. Just as two Kings are obviously human! But they are 2 distinct individuals with different thoughts, ages, names etc...

You can't explain your illustration any further because you'll only dig yourself further into a hole.
---David8318 on 8/7/10


'Meizon' - John 14:28

In Addition to Thayer, Strong's Concordance provides this meaning for Meizon:

"Greater, larger, elder, stronger"

The KJV renders Meizon (according to Strong's) "elder" 1 time, "greater" 34 times, "greatest" 9 times and "more" 1 time.

Again I ask:

Since Christ Jesus said: "My Father, which gave them to me, is greater (meizon) than all..." (John 10:2)

...Is he saying that the Father is only 'positionally greater' and not better (according to Warwick) than 'all'?
---scott on 8/7/10


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"Identical titles means they are one and the same". Warwick

Really, where do you get this stuff? In all seriousness you might consider thinking these assertions through to their logical conclusion(s).

Jehovah is God (Elohim)

Moses is called God (Elohim) ex 7:1

Satan is called the God of this world or age. 2 Cor. 4:4

All three (and more) share this title.

Also both Father and Son are 'Saviors" but men also have been given this "identical title" Johash or Jeroboam at 2 Kings 13:5 see also Neh 9:27 and Judges 3:9 ASV, YNG, DBY

Obviously none of these are 'one and the same'


Context, context, context.
---scott on 8/7/10


scott,

i see.

i work with two other auditors with the same rank. we each have the same authority, but we have given each other the power to decide certain things based upon our unit's needs. Our work relationship is synergistic. On our own, each of us are good, but together as one we are really good.

it is not that Christ cannot, it is because for the sum, which is greater than the individual parts.
---aka on 8/6/10


Scott no double talk, only what the dictionary says.

You attempt to use John 10:29 to force your case that Jesus is not the God, but John 10:25-39 contradicts you: e.g. "I know them, and they follow me, I give them eternal life...no one can snatch them out of my hand... I and the Father are one. Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy,because you, a mere man, claim to be God...the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp."
---Warwick on 8/6/10


No David identical titles means they are one and the same. As the Dire Straits song said "Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong."

Jesus, the Creator, Redeemer, the Alpha and the Omega is the one and only God. That He sits at God's right hand is another way of saying this.

I used the example of the two earthly kings to help you understand. I do not know how to more simply explain it.

I admit that much about God is a mystery, as Scripture says. That God can be eternal, living outside of time is indeed a mystery but that is what Scripture says. Do you believe the Creator started with nothing and made everything? How did He do it David? If you cannot explain it then maybe it didn't happen right?
---Warwick on 8/6/10


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How is it the Father is greater?---Who spoke?---what did he speak?---Words.
His Word proceeded out of His mouth.
Where did they come from?--the Father.
Who's words are they?---the Father.
Who's word became flesh?---the Father.
Jesus is the Word of God in flesh-In covenant-He is Father.

Jn10:28-30
And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means Ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them OUT OF MY HAND. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things and no one can snatch then OUT OF THE HAND OF THE FATHER.I and the Father are ONE.
---char on 8/6/10


BTW Scott my research indicates Thayer (among modern lexicons) is alone in defining 'meizon' as: "those who surpass in nature and power, as God." He is contradicted by Scripture e.g. Philippians 2:6-9 where Paul speaks of Christ's incarnation "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."

That the Alpha and the Omega, Creator, Redeemer, the I am, is in very nature God is a statement of the obvious. In this light John 14:28 is saying
that the Father is positionally (but not in nature) greater that the Son who "made himself nothing."
---Warwick on 8/6/10


//And trinitarians have not explained why, if equal, this 'decision' could not be made by Christ.
---scott on 8/6/10///
Do Words decide or are they spoken?
Who's Word is spoken?
Who's Word became flesh?
God's.

Yeshua-Immanuel-God with us.
Yehovah Savior.
His Word will not return void-
---char on 8/6/10


'Greater' / 'Better', Warwick's semantic double-talk:

"My Father, which gave them to me, is greater (meizon) than all..."
John 10:29

Is the Father only 'positionally greater' (not better) than 'all'?

Meizon itself can mean either "greater in nature" or "higher in position." Thayer, p. 395

Thayer specifically lists John 14:28 ("the Father is greater than I") under the heading "those who surpass in nature and power, as God."

In this same category Thayer lists John 10:29 (above) which is clearly something qualitatively better (of a higher nature) than everything.
---scott on 8/6/10


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So Warwick, your use of the 'two Kings' illustration on the other thread IS about sharing the same name. Despite your protestation, 'What in the world does age, name, etc have to do with equality?' (8/3/10), you now believe names do matter because you say, 'Therefore having identical titles they are one and the same' (8/4/10).

I've heard of people changing stories after a week or so, but you change tack from one day to the next!

Your illustration fails because Kings of ancient times did not always share names. Neither do Jehovah and Jesus.

And you show your true Neo-Platonist identity by saying God and Jesus are equal in 'substance'. This is the only way you can explain the trinity- through Hellenic philosophy.
---David8318 on 8/6/10


aka.joseph,

I was paraphrasing my own comments to Warwick (8/3/10, 8/4/10) regarding Matt 20:23.

Since Christ said "No one has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man," (John 3:13 NASB) being at Christ's 'right hand,' was a future prospect. But it was a prospect according to Christ himself. (Matt 20:23)

But if there was to be a specific position for the apostles (or whomever) it was not Christ's decision to make.

The point: Warwick stated that 'sitting/standing' at the 'right hand' indicated equality. (8/3/10) Obviously not true.

And trinitarians have not explained why, if equal, this 'decision' could not be made by Christ.
---scott on 8/6/10


David, you claim the Holy Spirit is not who Jesus said He is. Jesus said,
" But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, "He" will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning"
The Helper is the Holy Spirit and that He is a He. Those are from the very words of Christ. I believe you have also a problem with what Christ says when He call's Him "allos" which means another, which means another of equal quality and not "heteros" another of a different quality. Therefore the Holy Spirit is designated by Jesus Christ as equal with Himself, God (1 John 2:1).
---MarkV. on 8/6/10


-Amen.
//Mat 12:32 (ESV) And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.-aka joseph on 8/5/10//
Jn 4:22-26
...But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,for the Father seeketh[such] to worship Him. God [is]Spirit and they that worship him must worship [Him] is spirit and in truth..

The Holy Spirit is the absolute condition of God. He is Father to Those who worship Him-in truth.
We worship Him in truth(His Word-Jesus Christ-as ONE-IN SPIRIT-SPIRIT OF TRUTH)
Jn 4:23,16:13,18:37,2Cor 6:7
Holy Spirit Bears Witness to His Word-Spoken.
---char on 8/6/10


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Scott, the other blog was closed, but I wanted to ask you the verse(s) in scripture that say "disciples are spoken of as being at Christ's right hand..."

I could not find that in Scripture, but I did come across this: Mat 20:23 (ESV) He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."

Mat 12:32 (ESV) And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
---aka on 8/5/10


The Holy Spirit is God-with us Now-confirming His Word.
---char on 8/5/10


The HS is part of the Godhead. Acts 5:3-4
The HS played an active role in creation Gen1:2
The HS is a personal being. Eph. 4:30
Receiving the HS is referred to the new birth John 3:5-7.
The HS is the source of truth. John 15:16-17
The HS is God living in and around those who believe. Math. 18:19-20
The HS is a comforter. Acts 9:31/Math 10:19-20.
The HS is a "prayer-coach" Rom 8:26-27
The HS is a "worship" and "speech coach" John 4:23-24/Acrs 1:8
---Pierre on 8/4/10


FWIW, "to pnevma" is NEUTER in Greek. ---Cluny on 8/2/10

I really do not know the point you are making, Cluny.

The Greek word for spirit- 'pneuma'- on the other hand is neuter in gender and is properly translated "it". ---David8318 on 7/31/10
---aka.joseph on 8/2/10


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If it makes sense to you to personify the holy spirit, then do. If not, then don't.
---ger.toshav on 8/3/10


\\...now, I hear that the use of 'pneuma' for the word 'spirit' is an 'it'. John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. The sentence uses "pneuma" (it) yet the is a conjunctive sentence that uses 'him' instead of "it" (ESV)
---aka.joseph on 8/2/10\\

FWIW, "to pnevma" is NEUTER in Greek.
---Cluny on 8/2/10


I have heard that Jesus does not teach "hell fire". He mentions it various times in Scripture. Mat 18:9(even in ESV).

I have hear Jer 7:31 be used as a verse that speaks out against "hellfire" when it is clearly about child sacrifice.

...now, I hear that the use of 'pneuma' for the word 'spirit' is an 'it'. John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. The sentence uses "pneuma" (it) yet the is a conjunctive sentence that uses 'him' instead of "it" (ESV)
---aka.joseph on 8/2/10


aka.joseph

The bible uses language that personifies lots of things that are of course not actually persons.

Truth dies- Jer 7:28

The land cries out- Job 31:38-40

We can lie against the truth- James 3:14 KJV, RSV

"Justice is turned back, and righteousness stands far away, for truth has stumbled in the public squares, and uprightness cannot enter." Is 59:14 ESV

Are truth, land, justice, uprightness and righteousness persons?
---scott on 8/2/10


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The Holy Spirit is God. God has a Spirit and God is Holy (God's Spirit is Holy) so we call Him Holy Spirit, or God's Holy Spirit.

He is One of Three in God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

We pray to God in the name of Jesus and the Holy Spirit abides in us and executes God's plan for our lives.

At least this is the way I understand Holy Spirit. We are to reverence Him just as we do Jesus and God. For the three are one. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." Since the HS is part of God (it's God's Spirit) there is no separating God and His Spirit which is Holy.
---Donna5535 on 8/2/10


The Spirit of Christ, he is the Holy Spirit Shiloh.
---Eloy on 8/1/10


--John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Under the rules according to some here, God is also a(n) "it".

--John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

I did not know that ANY PERSON can be birthed by an "it".

--John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
---aka.joseph on 8/2/10


"What or who is the Holy Spirit?"
The Holy Spirt is the Father's Spirit, His Divine Inspiration and Insight, set apart for the enlightenment of man.
---Josef on 8/1/10


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The HolySpirit sent by Jesus was to act as a 'parakletos'. John 16:7,8.

When John recorded Jesus words the Greek word he used- 'parakletos'- is in the masculine gender. So John used masculine personal pronouns (he, him) to describe what the HolySpirit would do.

So in describing the 'parakletos' as "he" at Jo.16:7,8 it is conforming to rules of grammar and not expressing a doctrine.

The Greek word for spirit- 'pneuma'- on the other hand is neuter in gender and is properly translated "it".

Thus HolySpirit- it is God's active force He used at creation (Ge.1:2), and He continues to use to carry out His will and purpose.
---David8318 on 7/31/10


Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.
---micha9344 on 7/31/10


The holy ghost/spirit is Gods active force or his power dwelling in you. Never a human being. the reason "he" is in there is because at the time the translators didn't have a proper noun for "it".Also Jesus isnot the HolySpirit because when he left he said he was leaving a comforter with us which is now the holyspirit.
---candice on 7/31/10


Darlene,If you were to read psalms 104 you may see that the holy spirit is the life giver of all kiving matter.In proverbs 8 you will read of the wisdom of the holy spirit.The holy spirit is the very same that gives birth to all living things year after year after year and will always do this.The holy spirit is within everyone maintaining life and giving wisdom and pointing man Godward if it can albeit it is frequently rejected.No man can live if not for the holy spirit.Spirit maintains it's creation .The spirit of truth's leading is always confused with the holy spirit.The two are somewhat difficult to divide their differences except for when they begin functioning as did the spirit of truth at pentecost.
---earl on 7/31/10


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Earl is that New Age thinking. Life exists because of the Spirit of life which goes back to God when we die,not Holy Spirit. That isn't the Holy Spirits,Holy Ghost and they are the same,job at all. The Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost has always been to empower human beings for the work of God. In the Old Testament,under Old Covenant the Holy Spirit was only given to Prophets,Priests,and Kings. The Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost is a he,God sent to humankind to empower people for service to God,for them to be used by God. New Testament,under the New Covenant the Holy Ghost is given to all servants of God who ask and surrender,for him to dwell and move through them for the work of God. He is the Comforter,and Spirit of Truth.
---Darlene_1 on 7/31/10


The holy spirit is the universe spirit.This spirit was present at the time of creation of our universe.It should not be confused with the spirit of truth that became present at pentecost.However, most all people recognize only one spirit influence in their lives and usually call it God's spirit.If this spirit were to remove itself from the universe all known creation here will dissappear as indicated in Proverbs as the spirit of wisdom stated- which is a part of the holy spirit.The holy spirit provides us with a consciousness to think and reason .We function with in it and have our being.But it is God who administers personality-that which we identify ourselves and others.Life does not exist without spirit.
---earl on 7/31/10


The Holy Ghost Is Jesus Christ.
The Father - Son & Holy Ghost Is Jesus Christ.
Colo.2 v 9 Is Jesus Christ.
---Lawrence on 7/31/10


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