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Was Jesus God In Human Form

When Jesus was on earth was he fully God or fully human, or was he both fully God and fully human, or neither one?

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 ---ger.toshav on 8/1/10
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Cliff you have caught Davids 'disease' he also thinks you have to be the same age to be equal in substance!

Both the Father and the Son are called the identical, specific titles, the definite article, the Creator, the Redeemer, the Alpha and the Omega, the I am, the Lord, the God. Now with you and your son there are two of you, correct?

Are you therefore trying to say there are two persons with the above identical titles, Creator etc? The JW's have a big God and a little God but you promote two absolutely identical Gods!

Do you suggest that two people could be the President of the USA, with the same name, the same qualifications, the same history, at the same time?

Come on admit it, come out, you are a closet JW!
---Warwick on 8/5/10


Earl this topic has been covered many times before.

As regards John. 14:28. Consider 2 Greek words 'meizon' (greater) and kreitton (better). Jesus said the Father is "greater' (meizon) not better (kreitton). Conversely Hebrews 1:4 says Jesus is better (kreitton) than angels. Not just positionally higher, but better in His very nature.

In human terms a countries leader is positionally greater than his fellow men but not better. The same with the Father and the Son.

God's word would not describe the Father and the Son with identical titles (e.g.the Creator, the Alpha and the Omega) if they are not absolutely equal, one and the same God.
---Warwick on 8/5/10


Scott you say that "disciples are spoken of as being at Christ's right hand.."

Chapter and verse please.
---Warwick on 8/5/10


---Samuel on 8/5/10
Amen.
Nice info-Thanks.
---char on 8/5/10


Arkhe - Samuel (1)

In all the writings of John you will find that he never uses arkhe (arch) to mean "ruler" or "leader" but, more properly, always uses arkhon (arcwn).

The Expositor's Greek Testament (trinitarian, of course) tells us that to understand Rev. 3:14 as meaning that Jesus is "the active source" [of creation, instead of the first created person, one must interpret arkhe] "as in Greek philosophy and Jewish wisdom-literature, = aitia or origin."
---scott on 8/5/10




Ironically, "Gehenna" (or "hell fire" referenced in Mt.5:22, Mr.9:47) was the place spoken of in Jer 7:31-32 where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch in "valley of the son of Hinnom" to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. 15:8, II Kings 23:10, Jer 19:6) (jewish encyclopedia dot com)

aka.joseph does not believe people will burn forever. aka.joseph believes that Jesus was using a comparison to the pain and anguish people who are eternally separated from the Father will feel (Luk 13:28) when they are cast out. This is the pain that children felt when they were sacrificed in literal fire.

In Mat 18:9, Jesus says "gehenna" fire and in the preceding verse, he says "everlating fire."
---aka.joseph on 8/5/10


Was Jesus the Creator?

Or was His Father the Creaator?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/5/10


Scott, your definition of 'I am' is a side issue as the Witnesses own study Bible admits Jesus was claiming to be the "I am" of Exodus 3:14, in John 8:58. Their 1984 large-print 'NWT Translation of the Holy Scriptures With References' has a footnote on Exodus 3:14 which admits the Hebrew, translated as "I am" is correctly rendered in Greek as 'ego eimi.' "I am" in the English New Testament.

The 1985 'Kingdom Interlinnear of the Greek Scriptures' reveals that Jesus' words in John 8:58 are this very same 'ego eimi', 'I am'

Therefore these two watchtower publications make clear the connection between Exodus 3:14, and John 8:58.
---Warwick on 8/5/10


First Beginning of Creation uses the word Arche which has two meanings.

) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

Now tie this in with the fact that JESUS is the creator.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
---Samuel on 8/5/10


Warwick,Tell me that you've never seen a situation where a father and son have the same name,title, position etc.
My eldest son has the same name as me,we are of the same substance,but he is not me!
Neither you nor I have ever seen a father and son the same age! (an impossibility)
It was God Himself that uses the human term "Son" and He did/does not deliberately mislead us!
If He wanted to show "equality" he would have used the human term "Brother"
Brother does not "beget" brother (step-brother maybe, but not brother!)
He uses human terms for us to understand and I "get it" perfectly!
---1st_cliff on 8/5/10




Warwick,
On the topic of Trinity doctrine,Jesus also said his father is greater than he is.Places in glory is not Jesus's right to give-remember.
Jesus is a begotten son as God is not sired.remember.
To leave these out is by your intent or oversight?
What may be spiritually true may be cosmologically untrue.
---earl on 8/5/10


Warwick,

Remember when you argued a point about a Hebrew word for several days, never admitting your mistake (and we all make them) then a year later you said that you had just been kidding?

Here we go again.

You asserted that to 'stand/sit' at God's right hand indicates 'equality. This premise is fatally flawed because disciples are spoken of as being at Christ's right hand (unless you're saying that Christ is not God).

I'll check back with you in a year or so and we'll have a good laugh over this one too.

Until then I'll look for you on 'Comedy Central'.
---scott on 8/5/10


"They are both called God" Warwick

So is Moses (plural Elohim) at Ex 7:1. Angels- Ps 8:5/Heb.2:7, etc.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God calls the Father his God. (Four times at Rev 3:12) See also 2 Cor 1:3, 1 Pet 1:3)


Creator or Created?

"He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation" (Col 1:15)

He is "The beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14)

As personified wisdom"The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old." Prov 8:22 RSV

Spoken of as having an origin (Heb- motsaah) at Micah 5:2
---scott on 8/5/10


"I Am" (1)

The Hebrew at Ex 3:14 ("Ehyeh asher ehyeh") literally translates- I will be who/what I will be" Not "I am."

"I am"" (Deut. 32:39) is "ani hu"- This language is not found at Ex 3:14.



John 8:58- "I am" ?

Many translations, based on the Greek as well as the context, render this verse as follows:

"I HAVE BEEN" - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB

"I HAVE BEEN" - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes

"I HAVE BEEN" - "The Four Gospels" According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis


Cont.
---scott on 8/5/10


John 8:58- "I am"? (2)

"I HAVE EXISTED" - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt

"I EXISTED" - NT in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck

"I EXISTED" - An American Translation, Goodspeed

"I EXISTED" - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams

"I WAS IN EXISTENCE" - Living Bible

"I WAS ALIVE" - The Simple English Bible

"I WAS" - Holy Bible - From the Ancient Eastern Text, Lamsa

)"I WAS" - Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed.

"I WAS" - The Syriac New Testament, Jas. Murdock
---scott on 8/5/10


Cliff, what you don't acknowledge is that Almighty God and The Lord Jesus are both given identical titles. Therefore "The Father and I are one" is but a confirmation of reality. Certainly one in purpose, certainly one in substance.

They are both called God, Creator, Redeemer, the I am, the Alpha and the Omega. Can these titles be applied to any apostle, or prophets? You know they can't.

To contradict this you have to show the Lord Jesus is not called by these titles.

I believe the 'fog' which surrounds you is but the natural gloom which sinks upon those who rejects God's word.

Please explain from Scripture, grammar or logic as to why Jesus statement "leaves out the Holy Spirit.."
---Warwick on 8/4/10


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David to assist you in understanding may I repeat the repeated-Both Almighty God and the Lord Jesus are given identical titles in Scripture-Creator, Redeemer, God, the I am, the Alpha and the Omega. Therefore having identical titles they are one and the same. Absolutely equal in substance,the one God. Therefore Jesus words "The Father and I are one" is only confirmation of Biblical reality.

Likewise Jesus words "But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God" Luke 22:69, is just further confirmation of Jesus equality with God.

Can I be Neo-Platonically bent and stand straight at the same time? It's a worry!
---Warwick on 8/4/10


Scott you have hit the nail on the head! You wrote "Either disciples that end up at Christ's right hand are equal to him or your premise is false" The Father has ordained that Jesus sits at His right hand showing Jesus, the Alpha and the Omega etc is God, His equal. Further If the Father was to invite the apostles to sit at Christ's right hand He would be saying they also were Almighty God, but they aren't and He didn't, case closed.

Please excuse me but I am off to the chiropractor to have my Neo-Platonic bent, unbent. You could say I am bent on being unbent.
---Warwick on 8/4/10


micha,
Jo.1.18 and Gen.17.1 .If you commit to saying John is correct then you automatically commit to saying Gen. is incorrect.
If you commit to saying Gen.17.1 is correct then you automatically commit to saying John.1.18 is incorrect.
Remember you are looking for revelation to discover the answer but is the answer in where you are looking?
There can only be one answer ,one truth.One verse will be right and one verse will be incorrect.
---earl on 8/4/10


scott, Says the Lord God Jesus: "To the person who overcomes will I grant to sit with me on my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with Father of me on his throne. When the Son of man will come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then will he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him will be gathered all the nations: and the King will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides sheep from the goats. And the cursed will go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." "For we must all appear in front of the Judgment throne of Christ, that every one will receive the things in body, according to what we have done, whether good or bad."
---Eloy on 8/5/10


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Kinda hard to sit on Christ's left hand since God is there. Will God give up His seat for one of the disciples?
As for Christ's right hand...
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Yet only Jesus and God are titled 'Lord of lords', but there can only be one. Who is your Lord of lords?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time
Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God, walk before me, and be thou perfect.
If these verses are true, Who appeared to Abram and called Himself God?
---micha9344 on 8/4/10


Jeremiah 7:31 tells us what feelings the God of love has toward the practice of BOTH child sacrifice AND the burning of people in fire.

BOTH child sacrifice and burning people in fire is to God, "a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart."

If akajoseph believes God does however burn people in a 'hellfire', then akajoseph is calling God a liar. False religions mistranslate what Jesus said regarding 'Gehenna' (Mt.5:22, Mr.9:47). He did not teach people would burn for eternity.

The Babylonian teachings of Hellfire, trinity and immortal soul, are the identifying characteristics of those people involved with false religion described in Revelation as belonging to 'BABYLON the GREAT'.
---David8318 on 8/4/10


"Hellfire or child sacrifice?" aka.joseph

I'd be happy to share my views on that topic, for what they are worth.
Start another thread and I'll throw in my two cents.

In the mean time, feel free to weigh in on the topic at hand:

"...1,500 years worth of monotheistic thinking that 1st century Christians were expected to believe without explanation."
---scott on 8/4/10


Warwick- we've already established your illustration of the two Kings highlights your Neo-Platonic bent.

You introduced the illustration to describe in your terms how you understood Acts 7:55. It is your understanding a King is invited to stand at the right side of another King 'as equals'.

Not qualifying in what sense you believe they share equality, I disagreed saying no two Kings are exactly the same age or have the same name. You protested saying you never mentioned anything about names or ages. So what is your argument Warwick?

You came to the defense of Ernest 1 who was clearly pushing Neo-Platonist philosophies of 'nature and essence'. So we all know your argument must be based on your Neo-Platonic bent.
---David8318 on 8/4/10


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Warwick, Others can decide for themselves if you've been able to support your premise or not.

You said:"To 'stand/sit at God's right hand'...means He is equal with God...ancient custom...signal their equality." Warwick

And yet Christ said "to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father." 20:23 KJV

Christ didn't say their request would be forever refused. He said it wasn't his decision to make...only the Fathers.

Either disciples that end up at Christ's right hand are equal to him or your premise is false.
---scott on 8/4/10


Saying 'Jesus is God in the flesh', Eloy believes the sacred secret of 'godly devotion' spoken of by Paul at 1 Tim.3:16 was for AlmightyGod to be 'made manifest in the flesh', in order to show 'godly devotion' to Himself, so that He could be 'raised up in glory'.

Why would God need to show 'godly devotion' to Himself? Why would God need to become flesh in order to do so? Where was AlmightyGod before being 'raised up in glory'? Who 'raised' AlmightyGod?

These are of course a few rhetorical questions highlighting the farcical nature of the diabolic triune-trinity mystery.

Jesus is not God in the flesh. Jesus is 'the SON of God' (Jo.1:34), who became manifest in the flesh to show godly devotion to his Creator- Jehovah God.
---David8318 on 8/4/10


"The passage you gave to support you view in Matthew 20:23 referring to the phrase, baptism, here in v. 22 and in v.23 do not appear in the best manuscripts..." MarkV

I didn't include the spurious words about 'baptism'.

The entire verses are not in question just (as pointed out in the NKJV footnote) "NU-Text omits 'and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with.'"

If you're claiming that Matt 20:22, 23 are spurious in their entirety, I'd have to ask for some lexical support for that.
---scott on 8/4/10


Php 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
---jerry6593 on 8/4/10


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Warwick, Is it foggy in here??
Let's clear this up, OK?
When Jesus prayed "that they Father may be one AS WE ARE ONE"
He meant (like you say)
"If you have seen John you have seen the Father"
"If you have seen Peter you have seen the Father"
etc. etc.=Your argument! (rediculous ,right?)
Like I asked -Do you understand "UNITY?"
Nothing to do with titles,names etc.

Besides "I and the Father are one" leaves out the Holy Spirit,does it not?(called slighting)
---1st_cliff on 8/4/10


Scott, for your information the passage you gave to support you view in Matthew 20:23 refering to the phrase, baptism, here in v. 22 and in v.23 do not appear in the best manuscripts as quoted by most of my Bibles. "the baptism that I am baptized with" and again in verse 23 it talks about baptism which do not appear in the best manuscripts. I'm following what all of you are posting and checked your answer to Warwick.
Scott, there is many passages that speak about Christ and His omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience and all the attributes of God in Him. Only one has all those attributes and that is God. There is also many passages that speak of that Christ the Second person, is the full manifestation of God in visible form.
---MarkV. on 8/3/10


Scott,

//What exactly do I 'claim' that I am?//

You have claimed that you are a baptist that studies with JWs.

//Your disdain for JWs clouds your objectivity and reasoning ability.//

Please, do not mix my words. I have disdain for the Watchtower Society and its false doctrine. I have no disdain the people that it deceives and uses.

//Are you not a believer?//

Yes, so if you consider this study, let's go back for a second, because I have not heard your view of some things that I studied. Is Jer 7:31 about hellfire or child sacrifice? Did Jesus ever talk about hellfire?
---aka.joseph on 8/3/10


Scott when a king invited another to sit at his right hand the invited king sat there. When we see Jesus seated at the right hand of God he is there invited to occupy the place of equality.

Almighty God and Jesus given the same titles e.g. the Alpha and the Omega, Creator, Redeemer the I am. Therefore they are one and the same God. For Jesus to say we will see Him seated in this position of equality, His rightful place, is a statement of the obvious. He did not ask a favour of God that He may sit there.

For the apostles/mother to ask they sit beside Jesus is presumption. It does not signify they were equal to God the Son.

The invited king sits there, Jesus sits there, the apostles don't. Request refused.
---Warwick on 8/3/10


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"Scott, despite what you claim that you are" aka.joe

What exactly do I 'claim' that I am?

"you will do better to study with Bible believers than Watchtower advocates." aka.joe

Are you not a believer?

How is that so if you are unable to offer a single response regarding my comments to you about 1,500 years worth of monotheistic thinking that 1st century Christians were expected to believe without explanation.

Your disdain for JWs clouds your objectivity and reasoning ability.

Again, are you not a believer? State your case. Prove that what I've stated is untrue.
---scott on 8/3/10


Cliff when Jesus the Alpha and the Omega, the Creator, Redeemer and the I am, (all titles also given to Almighty God) says The Father and I are one does they are indeed one or are there many who can claim to be Creator, Redeemer,the Alpha and the Omega, the I am etc?

You avoided my pertinent question: Your reasoning declares we can claim identical oneness with the Father that Jesus has.

Therefore you should be able to claim:

"..whatever the Father does, Cliff also does" John 5:19.

"He who does not honour Cliff does not honour the Father who sent him" John 5:23

"He who has seen Cliff has seen the Father" John 14:9.

Can you?
---Warwick on 8/3/10


Cluny -"to sit on my right hand, and on my left..."

Whether that 'traditional' view is true or not, do you agree with Warwick's conclusion: that 'sitting or standing" at Christ's right hand would make them "equal" to Christ, the son of God?
---scott on 8/3/10


scott, i cannot give you one verse that explains the Jesus incarnate is also fully God. But, I can suggest 66 books (chopped up into verses) that do explain it.

As far as Jesus being the 'perfect man'...

A man, who claims to be the Son of God, ("his only begotten Son" -John 3:16), and claims to have a Kingdom that is not of the earth, is either exactly who He says He is, or he is (at bes) a mad-man (and not nearly a perfect man).

Scott, despite what you claim that you are, you will do better to study with Bible believers than Watchtower advocates.
---aka.joseph on 8/3/10


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Warwick, Perhaps the skull is a little thicker than I imagined (you don't need a helmet when you race, right?)
The U.S. Army slogan "an army of one" means there's only one person in the entire U.S. army,right? (according to your reasoning!)
Jn.17 "that they ALL may be ONE in us"
They're all going to be part of God??
A bit like NERVANA huh?
You don't seem to comprehend "unity"(oneness)"That they may be one "in unity! Too simple?? NO, it's just that it doesn't support "trinity" right?
---1st_cliff on 8/3/10


\\"She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom." Matt 20:21

"to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father." 20:23 KJV.\\

Consider this. When Christ was lifted up, and seized the Kingdom of Heaven by force at His Crucifixion, it was given to Gestus and St. Dismas (as their names are in tradition) to sit on Christ's right and left hands.
---Cluny on 8/3/10


Cliff I ignored nothing.

Jesus Creator, Redeemer, I am, the Alpha and the Omega, therefore God, says "the Father and I are one." In John 17:22 He says "that they may be one as we are one." Your reasoning declares we can claim identical oneness with the Father that Jesus has.

Therefore you should be able to claim:

"..whatever the Father does, Cliff also does" John 5:19.

"He who does not honour Cliff does not honour the Father who sent him" John 5:23

"He who has seen Cliff has seen the Father" John 14:9.

Can you?


Obviously 'one' in John 22 does not determine the meaning of 'one' in John 10:30. As you know words are defined by context.
---Warwick on 8/3/10


Warwick, I doubt that the father looks anything like me,altho my wife treats me like a Greek god (burnt offerings)
**"He alone can say the Father and I are one"**
Is not supported in Jn.17 (as I mentioned and you ignored) "That they ,Father, may be one, AS YOU AND I ARE ONE" (one in unison,same as one flesh husband and wife)
Jn.14.9. "No one can see God and live" So seeing the Father and seeing the Son is more of a look-a-like.
Relatives say to me "Your father will never be dead long as you're alive" (spittin image)..this is more of what Jesus was saying! Not indicating that He was the Father .."Our Father which art *IN HEAVEN*"
So did He not say "where" the father was?
---1st_cliff on 8/3/10


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It is proven that Jesus is God in the flesh.
---Eloy on 8/3/10


"To 'stand/sit at God's right hand'...means He is equal with God...ancient custom where one king would invite another to sit on his right to signal their equality." Warwick

"She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom." Matt 20:21

"to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father." 20:23 KJV

Warwick has drawn a conclusion that would make those 'sitting at Christ's right hand' (a privilege that Christ cannot bestow) equal to the son of God.
---scott on 8/3/10


While Jesus was on earth, He was all who God can be while living in a human body. This shows how personal God is interested in being with us, to share with us, like this. But, yes, there are wrong people who use the Trinity to give themselves credibility, so I am not going to judge the Trinity doctrine by who might have adopted it (c: I offer that God made man in His own image, and so man is a family being, personal, with more than one basic family person . . . father, child, and helpmate . . . like how God is three *Family* Persons sharing in Family caring and personal intimacy. Ones not capable of personally loving and of personal intimacy can have a problem with this, and *decoy* us to intellectual and logical issues (c: 1 Corinthians 6:17.
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/3/10


"When Jesus was on earth was he fully God or fully human, or was he both fully God and fully human, or neither one?"
Jesus was, during His sojourn on earth, a human, filled from conception with the 'Divine nature'-the superimposed, inherent character and disposition- of the Father, led acquiescently by the Father's direct Divine influence, inspiration, and guidance.
---Josef on 8/3/10


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Cliff, correct, neither you nor I were there but God was. His word says the Jews wanted to kill Jesus on a number of occasions including John 5:18, 8:58, and 10:30-33. But you know better!

And they did Kill Him, didn't they?

Jesus is given the same titles as God- Creator, Redeemer, the Alpha and the Omega, the I am etc. Therefore He alone can say "I and the Father are one."

If the oneness Jesus shares with the Father (John 10:30) is identical with the oneness believers have with Christ (John 17:21)then you should be able to say:

'He who has seen me (Cliff) has seen the Father?'John 14:9. Can any man or angel claim that?
---Warwick on 8/3/10


David I twice wrote that when Jesus is said to 'stand/sit at God's right hand' it means He is equal with God. I pointed out this term originated in ancient custom where one king would invite another to sit on his right to signal their equality.

But you went on about earthly kings not being the same age and name etc. What in the world does age, name, etc have to do with equality? Absolutely nothing. Your subterfuge ably demonstrates you have no sensible argument, or you would have given it!

Jesus, Creator, Redeemer, Alpha and Omega, the I am, says He will be seen seated at God's right hand (Matthew 26:64) claiming equality with God. And the high priest called this blasphemy-they killed Him for this!
---Warwick on 8/3/10


Yhwh, he God, none else. Yeshuah (Jesus) says: Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I Am. For I am The Lord. I level my life, and I raise it again. I am The Almighty. He that has seen me has seen The Father. And no one always stepped in heaven except he out of heaven came down, the Son of man who from being in the heaven. And Jesus went to them, walking on the sea, and said, Take courage: I am, be not afraid. I am Light to the world. I am from above, I am not of this world: for if you all believe not that I Am, you all will die in your sins. Which of you maligns me of sin? I am the door, by me if anyone enter in, that one will be Saved. I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd gives his life for the sheep.
---Eloy on 8/2/10


aka.joseph, (1)

This is the reason for my question. Consider:

"The Jews were renowned...the Romans thought notorious, for believing in one God. There was complete agreement by the Jews on this point. No compromise would ever be acceptable. And this stand was not the ticket to popularity in the ancient world." The Unfinished Reformation

Jesus Christ certainly understood this ancient monotheistic view held by the Jews, he was a Jew himself.

And when asked by the scribes (Mark 12:28-30) what the greatest commandment was he quotes Deut 6:4 that says God is "one", supporting their historic view.

Cont.
---scott on 8/2/10


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Warwick, ""Why would Jesus grasp at being God when He is God?" Pretty lame statement coming from you!(a little below your intellect)
"I and my Father are one" you're obviously not familiar with Jn.17 huh?
They (Jews) knew what He was claiming?
They knew diddly-squat,What does a "mob" know, only violence .
We had "hooligans" right here this year (G-20 summit) simply bent on causing trouble, Jesus was not "popular" with the masses!
"Any" excuse would suffice!
But you weren't there either! You too like to side with the "popular" evangelicals,in their false(but popular) doctrines.
---st_cliff on 8/2/10


aka.joseph, Consider: (2)

If Christ was introducing a new view of God, this would be THE most difficult concept for first century Jews to grasp. (Believers and non-believes alike).

Paul uses almost the entire 15th chpt of 1 Cor to explain the concept of a heavenly resurrection, Romans Chpt. 4 is dedicated to explaining Salvation by faith.

About fifteen chapters (NT) explain, teach and clarify issues related to Sabbath, food laws, circumcision, the gentile inclusion, etc. All new concepts, difficult to grasp.

Yet if these Jews who believed in one God for 1,500 years were now supposed to understand and worship their 'one God' in a drastically new way...why is there not one single verse that explains it?
---scott on 8/2/10


scott, i am not a proselyte, judaizer, or a Judeo-Christian (which is an oxymoron in itself).

Jews do not believe that the "messiah" is divine. To them, God is absolutely different from humans, and their Moshiach would never become a human. to them, their messiah has not returned yet.

i have no idea what they meant with their shema, but to me it was scripture that could not be fully understood until the life, death, and resurrection of my Messiah, Jesus Christ.
---aka.joseph on 8/2/10


aka.joseph Deut 6:4

This verses is called "the shema". (Shema meaning 'hear', the first word of the verse).

Today practicing Jews recite the 'shema' everyday in prayer. And it was part of daily Jewish prayers for centuries before Christ.

Question- What do you think they meant when they said that God was 'one'...for some 1,500 years before the arrival of the messiah?
---scott on 8/2/10


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Cliff you would have us believe that Jesus, Immanuel, Creator, Redeemer, the Alpha and the Omega, the I am, (all Almighty God's titles) does not mean He is one and the same being as God (same substance and purpose) when He says "I and the Father are one." You jest!

The Jews saying Jesus was making Himself equal to God means they knew what He was claiming. You weren't there but say they got it wrong!

Philippians 2:6,7 shows Jesus "being (present tense) in very nature God" didn't grasp at equality with God (being God) "but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness."

Why would the Lord Jesus grasp at being God, when He is God,
---Warwick on 8/2/10


Was 'God manifest in flesh' at 1 Tim.3:16 to show godly devotion to Himself? Translations who disagree with trinitarians are:

'He was manifested in the flesh'. Holman Christian Standard (Is this the same 'Holman' Warwick likes to quote?)

'He appeared in a body'. NIV

'He who was manifested in the flesh'. ASV

'He was manifested in the flesh'. RSV

The New Living Translation says, 'Christ appeared in the flesh'.

It's Neo-Platonic trinitarian rubbish to say God became 'flesh' to show 'godly devotion' to Himself, and then to be 'received up in glory'. A man was to show 'godly devotion'- that's the whole point! (man is the sinner not God)
---David8318 on 8/2/10


Yes, he is proven to be God in the flesh. "Concerning the Son of him, the coming of the heir of David, down from flesh, marked out the Son of God in power, down from Spirit of holiness, out from resurrection from death." Rm.1:3.
---Eloy on 8/2/10


Warwick, Using the scripture "I and the Father are one"..one what?
This is explained in detail at Jn.17! and it doesn't mean
one person" any more than me and my wife are "one flesh" means one person. (fundamentalists always use this to try to "slick it over") Slickness is not the Christian way!
Jn.5.18* Use a little common sense here*, the Jews "saying" that Jesus was making Himself equal to God does not "Make it so" now does it!
Phil.2.6 "(Jesus)did not consider equality with God something to be grasped"cont..
---1st_cliff on 8/2/10


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Warwick,#2 Likewise at Jn.8.24."that I am the one I claim to be" (He could have said "Ah is the one.." but that would be grammatically incorrect!same at vs 58.
The "I Am" Ex.6 is the shortened definition of God's name YHVH I am that i am, I will be whatsoever I will be,I will become whatsoever I become (the becoming one). Jesus did not use the Hebrew here, but the Greek IAm.The exact same word use by the Apostles when describing who they were!Gr.(eimi) (another "slick" try!)
---1st_cliff on 8/2/10


The predictably ambiguous set of scriptures used by trinitarians.

Trinitarians say Paul at 1 Tim.3:16 wrote, 'God was manifest in the flesh'. This is mistranslated.

Paul discussed the 'sacred secret' of who would show 'godly devotion' to God to the ultimate degree, an act that was 'admittedly great'.

Is Paul saying 'God' showed godly devotion to Himself? To do so trinitarians believe 'God was made manifest in the flesh' to show godly devotion to Himself.

Then, after God shows 'godly devotion' to Himself, 'God was... received up in glory'. A bizarre belief!

Truth- 'The SON of God' needed to show perfect 'godly devotion' to his God & Creator. Thus, 'He was made manifest in the flesh'. Jo.1:14,34, 1 Tim.3:16.
---David8318 on 8/2/10


Yhwh is Yeshuah: Jesus is God. Jesus is Emmanuel: God with us. Know you all that Jesus, he God, none else. Papa yeshuah, the one and only true God, and eternal life. Jesus is my Father, Papa yahwah, yahagahan elohim. Lord Iesous alone is my Lord and my God, he alone is become my Salvation. Jesus is worthy of all worship and worthy of all acceptance. Jesus is my Lord and my Redeemer, The Almighty, he conquered death and hell and the grave. There is none like unto him. Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! for he is worthy to be praised. You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power, now and forever always, Amen.
---Eloy on 8/1/10


"Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given to me, that they may be ONE AS WE ARE." John 17:11. Doesn't seem to be about the trinity....
---ger.toshav on 8/1/10


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1st_cliff, you are right, in a sense, Deu 6:4 does say it all: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God (plural-elohiym), the LORD is one.

All in one and one in all.

I know...save your fingertips...polytheistic neo-platonic, man-made...blah, blah, blah...

Anyway, one verse does not say it all. Genesis 1:1 to Rev 22:21 (of credible scripture) says it all.
---aka.joseph on 8/2/10


Yes Cliff that is why the Lord Jesus, Creator, Redeemer, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Alpha and the Omega, the I am, Lord of the Sabbath says "I and the Father are one" John 10:30.

John 5:18 shows the Jews wanted to kill Him because He was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Likewise John 8:24 "...you shall die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins." Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.

Likewise John 8:58 -shows Jesus is God the "I am."

These verses and dozens more demonstrate the truth.
---Warwick on 8/2/10


God sent some prophets to do some works, & some had failed.

So God robed Himself in flesh 1st.Tim.3 v 16 & came down here to do a work that carnal man could not do.
---Lawrence on 8/2/10


Yes. He lived on earh as a man to be our example. But his death as both atones for the sins of the world and any who want it can become righteous through His death and resurrection.

He as both now intercedes as our High Priest who knows how we feel but is at the right Hand of GOD as an equal representing us to the Father.

Without being both our salvation would not be secure.
---Samuel on 8/2/10


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Hey ,there's only 774,746 words in the bible, hardly enough to cover "trinity" so you have to add some like homoousios, hypo static union, same substance,God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit,trinity etc..to prop up an unscriptural doctrine!
The kicker is the fact that the 1st 4 thousand years of history are completely devoid of any tri-union god!(except in mythology and paganism) Deut 6.4.says it all!
---1st_cliff on 8/1/10


JOHN 10:30 I and my Father are one
---RICHARD on 8/1/10


Amen Cluny, Awesome statement and very true to scripture!!!
---miche3754 on 8/1/10


I appreciate y'all's thoughts on this topic. I guess we'll never know for sure....
---ger.toshav on 8/1/10


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in the beginning was the word,and the word was with God,and the word was God.Jesus was sent by the father to the world,Jesus also said before Abraham was i,am.Jesus also said he saw Satan cast from heaven.The bible plainly teaches Jesus was with his father in heaven, before his birth in a manger.confusing as it may be to the world,Jesus was fully divine ,and fully human,and at the same time.
---tom2 on 8/1/10


He was and is the eternal Son of God:Romans 1:4, "And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:" Heb 4:14, 1 John 3:8 5:20 etc.
He was and is the Son of Man: John 5:27, "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." Acts 7:56, "And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
---Bruce5656 on 8/1/10


I believe Cluny has summed it up very well.

The Lord Jesus Christ was fully God who is spirit, not flesh, and fully man, who is flesh. The two are one, not mingled nor confused, as Cluny writes.

Cluny is correct in writing "Heretics deny this." Don't be lead astray by deceivers with carefull conceived stories.
---Warwick on 8/1/10


"This doctrine, btw, is called the Hypostatic Union."
---Cluny on 8/1/10
Cluny you are one who has pushed the fact that the word "Rapture" is not in the Bible. So you claim it is not real. Now, you use the words "Hypostatic Union" which are not in the Bible either.
Why is one valid and the other isn't.
I am interested to see your spin on this.
---Elder on 8/1/10


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He is not God, he is Gods son. God sent his son here to do His will. When will people start doing accurate research on the trinity & relize it's another RCC adoption of the pagan traditions & of their gods?
---candice on 8/1/10


Jesus was divine and fully human while on Earth otherwise he could not have been the medium for the atonement for the sins of God's chosen Elect.

Jesus's position in the trinity is the Son at the right hand subordinate to the YHWH his father.

Jesus is divine but not a god for the only god is YHWH.
---Friendly_Blogger on 8/1/10


Christians teach the Son/Logos, begotten of the Father in eternity,

Thus, He was fully divine.

In time, He took on the fullness of human nature in the womb of the Virgin and thus His divinity was united to His human nature, without changing, confusion, mingling, or division-- fully human and fully divine, yet remaining one person, the same Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ.

This doctrine, btw, is called the Hypostatic Union.

Thus Christians have taught for 2000 years.

Heretics deny this.
---Cluny on 8/1/10


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