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Does Prayer Change Things

Does prayer change things? This has always been an age old question? Do our prayers change the foreknowledge of God?

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-- Ginger :

again out of love, how could she have had the things in her heart and talk to God and God answer? You and I both know he would not.-- Ginger

Sister, I share always & again in Love, Miche Apologized for thinking that the Foreknowledge of God could be changed, but in light of her recent views on 8/11/10 of thinking the contradictory speculation of God's Word was OK, brings into question the sincerity of her apology and who she really received her answer from...

... B/c if a person Truly received from the Lord a answer saying His Foreknowledge would never Change, then WHY would they still believe it's OK to contradict & speculate about the Foreknowledge of God's Word? You & I both know they wouldn't.
---ShawnM.T. on 8/14/10


-- Ginger :

You did compare her asking God to the conversation Eve had with satan--Ginger


Sister, I was sharing in Love one of the first lessons taught in the Bible of the destructive nature from the contradictory speculation of God's Word!!!

Miche took it upon herself to not Hear the Spirit of what I was sharing and listened instead only to the tangible fact that Eve had a conversation with the serpent and compared that with the conversation she stated she had with God.

Now why would a person only listen & compare themselves to the tangible instead of receiving the Spiritual lessons being shared in Love?

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---ShawnM.T. on 8/14/10


-- Miche :

Shawn, How could you think that was what was in my heart when I asked God?--Miche

Sister, If you can honestly say when you asked "You didn't believe man's freewill has anything to do with his Choices", then you have my Deepest Sincere Apologies & I Ask for your Forgiveness for the response of my thoughts in the second half of my last post on 8/12/10!!!

...... BUT if you truly believe that man's freewill has nothing to do with his choices, then how could your heart even fathom to speculate in prayer about Hezekiah having the ability to choose to not pray... when you know he did pray??????

Feel free to post your response to any thread I'm on
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/14/10


Shawn,
From what I read as an outsider, she asked God.

She did not speculate anything.


You did compare her asking God to the conversation Eve had with satan in the garden.

The last I checked brother, the word "what" entails a question not speculation.
If it had been specultaion do you think God would have shown her that what you taught her lines up with his word? No, brother.
Because the Bible tells us to try and test the spirits to see if they be true. She did and you were right and she agreed.
I ask you again out of love, how could she have had the things in her heart and talk to God and God answer? You and I both know he would not.
---ginger on 8/14/10


Trav, I love Scripture and the reason I study it. You mentioned I gave no Scripture reference but the reason you did not see it is because you look to provoke,
"So when God looks down upon the Cross, He sees us, believers, "united in death with His Son, crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and raised with Christ to newness of life, and even more, to position us with Christ in God" in a new heavenly position. Where we can see from His view point." All are Scripture references, look them up.
So you thank God for provoking His messengers, well let me say, because of your blindness and lack of hearing, it was not God who sents you to provoke others.
God does not bring division, sinful people do.
---MarkV. on 8/14/10




Miche, in this case you are very wrong. I do not know what motivates you to make something up like you did when you accused Shawn of saying you had a converstion with satan. Again you entered the enemy as to your defense. You twisted what he said. You do want to sound like you are a victim, and want sympathy from others so that they can come to your defense as if you have been battered. As I said before to you, even though you do not believe, I will continue to pray for you. That in God's foreknowledge, He has seen you make things right. It is between you and God. As Dan said, whatever decision you make, God knows already. You can incite more trouble or you can make things right. It's all up to you.
---MarkV. on 8/14/10


Every Christian should have a storehouse of first-hand evidence that prayer changes things. If you cannot point to events in your own life that have occurred in answer to prayer, then you need examine your own relationship with Christ. These events form the witness that God expects us give others, not just the experiences of others.

As for foreknowledge, although His is perfect, it is actually irrelevant, since God is outside of time and can move foreward as well as backward in it. Thus, in answer to a current prayer, God can go back in time and set events in motion that will occur in the near future.
---jerry6593 on 8/14/10


-- Miche :

Shawn... Stating I had conversation with devil as Eve did.--Miche

Sister, Now that's just a Lie... So don't try to make yourself out to be a victim who's getting unjustly jumped all over!!!

You were speculatively praying for something that you know God had not Predestined, when you asked 'What would have happened if Hezekiah had not prayed'.
BUT Hezekiah did pray as God had Foretold us... and what could have happened has happened since it was suppose to happened the way it happened and could not have happened any other way than the way God has Foreknown it to happen.

Miche, You've done nothing wrong but to believe that it Ok for you to contradict God's Word by speculating.
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/13/10


-- Ginger :

Sister, I'm just sharing, not correcting. Miche's opinion of God Foreknowledge has lined up, TBTG, but I'm now sharing something completely different which is the destructive nature of speculating about God's Word, which at this moment she doesn't understand but she didn't understand the non changing Foreknowledge of God either until that was shared with her : so the word you were looking for is persistent!!!


--- Miche :

asking God how and why he answers prayer?--Miche

Sister, There's nothing wrong with asking God how & why, but it's a completely different matter to contradict, through speculation, what the Lord said come to pass.

Grace Unto You Both & Peace Be Multiplied
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/13/10


Shawn, yep it's me.

Brother, what has happened to you?
Saying what you said to miche?
She asked and God gave her the answer. You should be humble and thankkful that she took your correction about the forknowledge of God, and how God answers prayer, yet you keep on.

When did you become so proud?
That is NOT the Shawn I left on these blogs 2 years ago.
Shameful, just shameful.
---ginger on 8/13/10




Dan, yes he did insult me.
How would you like if you were told that you were speculating simply by asking God how and why he answers prayer the way he does?
Shawn has said that I was speculating.
I was not. I asked God a question.
Speculating is coming to a conclusion without asking God.
I asked God.
I was compaired to Eve and what she did in the garden with satan!
That is NOT what I did.
You can say and believe what you want. I believe we should pose EVERY QUESTION, no matter what it is, to God and seek his answer.
There is no sin in that at all. No speculating, just asking.
I have been wrongly accused. That is very simple and easy to see.
---miche3754 on 8/13/10


Miche, you are not being insulted, you are being corrected. And you will not take correction, with God's glory in mind, your own pride. I will pray for you and hope that you at some point in time, speak for God's glory and not make something your own personal glory when you answer. As the question ask, it will not change the foreknowledge of God because He already knows what you will do. You do not have to answer to me or Shawn, but to God. As I speak, God already knows what you will do. Make sure you do the right thing.
---Dan on 8/13/10


Trav, You are still of Adam's family, making jokes and sarcastic remarks to those whom you despise. Do the millions of Jews dying in the ovens come to your mind?
---MarkV. on 8/13/10

No, they don't bother me. GOD sorts,justify's and revenge is his if due. This is your hangup.

Now if scripture makes you mad. You might try scripturally verifying your statements.
When you make a long teachery diatribe with a cute story and no scripture, you are inviting "truth" in scripture.
If by my offense/rebuke you see truth...would you still be mad or bless me?
I bless the man that provoked me to prove him wrong. GOD sent me a provoker. I thank GOD for my provoking.
---Trav on 8/13/10


Trav, your not able to see because you are behind the fence looking through a knot hole. All you saw was Israel go by and the rest you missed because people block your view. You were not able to see the whole picture and still don't. Not that you don't want to see the whole parade, but that you are not able to. You have not been called by God to go up and see the whole picture. You haven't been taken from Adam's family. Becuase you are not united in death with His Son, crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, or risen with Christ into a new life, in order to be ask to go upstairs. You are still of Adam's family, making jokes and sarcastic remarks to those whom you despise. Do the millions of Jews dying in the ovens come to your mind?
---MarkV. on 8/13/10


Shawn, How could you think that was what was in my heart when I asked God?
All I can say is that grieves my spirit.
You accuse me yet the fruit of what you accuse me of isn't there.
You say those things about me just because I asked God and he answered me.
You answer me kindly on other blogs as long Im doing the learning and you the teaching. As soon as that changes, you say I am guilty of those things.
You say God bless you and such, well, God has shown me that you might know his word and can teach it, but there is no love behind the words you speak here. They are empty.
Otherwise you would not say what I asked God was speculation and accuse me of such horrible things. What I asked God was just a question and he answered me.
---miche3754 on 8/13/10


He could see what went before, what's passing now, and way up the street what's coming. ---MarkV. on 8/12/10

I want to see this parade. Adam,is counting on it.
6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live, and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
---Trav on 8/12/10


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Part 3: Shawn has always answered from God's perspective, from God's view point. And he understands that all the perticulars are included in God's whole picture. Prayers, chastisements, all have their own perticular place in the whole picture that is a "now" to God. Paul revealed that it was God's purpose to take man, of Adam's race, to the Cross in order to deal with the "I" principle that stands in opposition to God. So when God looks down upon the Cross, He sees us, believers, united in death with His Son, crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, and raised with Christ to newness of life, and even more, to position us with Christ in God in a new heavenly position. Where we can see from His view point.
---MarkV. on 8/12/10


To everyone, I wanted to make clear why I said to Shawn he was looking at things from God's perspective so you can see why I said what I did.
I made an example to show what I mean:
There is a little boy who knew a parade was going to go by his house, but he was not allowed to go out to see it. He was restricted behind a fence on his yard, he could only see the parade go by through a knot hole on a board of the fence. Then he heard the voice of his big brother calling from the upstairs belconey. "Come up here." When the boy went upstairs and looked out, he could see everything from one end to the other. He could see what went before, what's passing now, and way up the street what's coming. It's was like living in a new world.
---MarkV. on 8/12/10


Part 2:
All men in Adam live unto themselves, relating to life's happenings to self. Instead of enthroning God, Adam enthroned himself by deliberately eating of the forbidden fruit. From that time everything has been out of order for Adam's family, (us) By attempting to be ultimate himself, man seeks to use God and relate all His works for his own desires. God expresses man's predicament this way: "Destruction and misery are in their ways" not as a result of their ways but inherently 'in their way's" But God through the work of Christ on the Cross, has put an end to the old race of Adam. 2 Cor. 5:14-15). As Christians should be seeing things from the eyes of God, looking at the whole picture, not from our view point.
---MarkV. on 8/12/10


-- Miche :

You were given one correction, speculation, and you made that into a mountain of accusations.---Dan

Sister, Dan is right!!!

BTW~Speculation is a lie that is believed, and it was the cause of the 'Fall'.

1)The pleasure of a lie combined with the pleasing lust of the eyes... Miche's pleasure to speculate about if Hezekiah didn't pray(which is a lie) was pleasing to her eye.

2)The lust of the flesh... Miche's thoughts of Hezekiah not praying supported the fleshy lust that man has freewill.

3)The pride of life... Miche desired to believe during man's life he has the freewill to deny what God has Foreseen.


When you ask amiss you're seeking something other than God's Will.
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/12/10


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Dan,
I did take it. Taking correction and taking insults are 2 different things.

Shawn corrected me about HOW prayer changes things. I accepted. Then he turned around & accused me of worldy pleasures comparing me to Eve.

When I said he and Kath were right then stated how I asked God, Shawn jumped all over me. Stating I had conversation with devil as Eve did.

That, brother Dan, is an insult.
I apologized to him, he should apologize to me.
Why am I being falsely accused?
I asked God what would have happened if Hezekiah had not prayed and God said that G he will accomplish all things and his word does not come back void. God answered me.

Dan, why are you jumping all over me when I did nothing wrong?
---miche3754 on 8/12/10


"The destruction of Speculating was the first lesson taught in the Bible. Eve's mind give into the serpents subtil way of speculating, by Adding & Taking Away from what she was already Foretold by God... which lead to the 'Fall'."- Shawn


You said I was speculating just like Eve.
No speculating here Shawn, but a lie that was believed.

How can you call me praying and asking God seeking his will, justifying worldly pleasures?
I didn't say I was Eve. You did.

I am just going to leave this alone because you are ranting and raving and accusing me when I didn't do anything wrong. God can fight this battle for me.
God bless you Shawn.
---miche3754 on 8/12/10


Miche, you are a women who will not take correction, indicating that you also must have lots of problems at home if you are married. You must be in control at home and your husband a complete failure. If not married, then with your family or friends. I have counseled many couples and that is a big problem. Your apologies are meaningless when you continue to argue the same thing you apologized for. A sign of someone who wants to be in control. You were given one correction, "speculation," and you made that into a mountain of accusations. For the sake of Christ, you should stop, and listen.
---Dan on 8/12/10


-- Miche :

Sister, I'm sharing one of the first lesson taught, and you're arrogantly claiming I'm comparing you & God to Eve & Satan... All I can say is PLEASE!!!

Miche you're no Eve, and don't make such absurd claims about God... just to try in justify your worldly pleasures of speculating about His Word.

We ask in Faith, nothing wavering. He that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind & tossed. Let not that man think he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

So, Don't disillusion yourself. Your not asking in Faith for God's Will to be Done through your speculation about His Word. It only causes your prayers to be tossed to & fro over what His Will has Proclaimed of Hezekiah praying.
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/12/10


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By the way Shawn, Speculating is NOT what caused the fall.
A lie combined with The lust of the eyes...
the tree was pleasing to the eyes of Eve.
The lust of the flesh...Eve thought the trree looked good for food.
The pride of life...Eve desired to be just like God.
All this caused the fall, Shawn.
There is none of this, Brother Shawn when I ask God questions.
There is nothing wrong with me asking him if they had not done what they did, what would have happened LORD?.
I ask these questions because I am seeking GOD's will. not satan's.
God always answers.
Why is it that you always think when someone asks God questions, they are speculating? Why are you falsely accusing me?
---miche3754 on 8/12/10


Shawn, we are talking about individual things here. Individual prayer. Individual relationship with God.
We have the promises as Kath explained so brilliantly.

You are accusing me of adding to God's word when I did not.
I was speaking on a personal level not general.

My personal experience on how God reveals things to me is not the same as it is with you or other people. It is a personal relationship within the promises that God has given us.

How can you compare a conversation between me and God to the one between Eve and Satan? Do you even realize what you said?
There is no lust of the flesh , eyes, or pride of life when I ask God things. Its about his will.

All I can say is .....WHAT?
---miche3754 on 8/11/10


-- Miche :

Sister, Clearly you do not know what it means to Speculate about God's Word. Speculation is to Add or Take Away from God's Word which He had Foretold has/would happen!!!

The destruction of Speculating was the first lesson taught in the Bible. Eve's mind give into the serpents subtil way of speculating, by Adding & Taking Away from what she was already Foretold by God... which lead to the 'Fall'.

Hezekiah prayed and the Lord added 15 years to his life. To speculate after the fact, 'What if Hezekiah didn't pray, would he still have had 15 years added to his life', is nothing more than not Trusting God's Foreknowledge and trying to Add & Take Away from what God has Foreseen & Proclaimed about His Word.
---Shawn.M.T on 8/11/10


No Kathr, it is you who is stirring the pot, by supporting Miche when she was wrong. I did not say one mean word to her, and she apologized, but you seem to do stir the pot all the time with your hateful answers to others. You have not learned to be quiet and just listen. You want to yell so you can be heard. I even supported your answer one time when someone called you a name. I do not remember the blog. You accused someone then of stirring the pot. Everyone can get along if they can control their tongues. You are not able to do that.
---Dan on 8/11/10


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Shawn,
There is nothing wrong with speculation...asking questions, wondering.
It is when you do not seek God in the matter at hand that it becomes a problem.

In my case it is always a part of the process of learning what God wants me to learn.

And God showing me what he needs me to see.
I don't see why you seem to have a problem with the way God and I communicate(for lack of a better word).
Do you really think we aren't supposed to ask questions of God to find his will?

My Bible tells me to knock seek and ask. I am sure yours does too.
---miche3754 on 8/11/10


-- Miche :

Sister, You've voiced you expressed yourself wrong, but I still read your wrong expression correctly for what it was which is Speculation!!!

I'm not sure if you're apologizing for expressing your speculation which you now feel is wrong... & /or b/c you didn't explain your statement of wondering if Hezekiah had not prayed would God still have saved him, was your process with the Lord.

In either case it's still speculation. I didn't misunderstand your statement for a question in need of answering, but was bringing to your remembrance again that our minds are to be transformed & renewed from worldly speculation of God's Word b/c God doesn't deal in contingency plans. That mind set delays our ability to receive.
---ShawnM.T. on 8/11/10


Dan, I had no problem with Shawn's answer.
He simply took what I said wrong because I expressed it in the wrong way.
I have no problem at all saying sorry when I am wrong. It was my fault because I didn't properly explain myself in the first place. So, it was not Shawn's fault and I was not upset or mad at him.

Thank you Kath.
I see Dan is not used to us hashing it out and eventually coming to an agreement or agreeing to disagree (mosly agree though,
:-)).
By the way, I really liked your last post too. Great scripture !!!
---miche3754 on 8/10/10


Miche, I see now that you have apologized. That is a good beginning. I have followed many blogs to see if God has something to reveal to me. I listen and learn alot from others and only a few times have I answered anyone. I noticed that when Shawn wrote what he did, you did not like his answer. Speculation is a terrible thing. And he was correct in what he said. You have done good answering now the way you did.
---Dan on 8/10/10


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Miche, as I can see, DAN has not contributed to this thread in any way.

Dan, people who like to stir the pot are those who bust into threads without any noticeable participation and just attack without even saying WHY they make comments. Many times it's personal and vindictive.


I see from your last 20 posts, you do seem to do this.

The blog question was not concerning how anyone listens, but was about prayer.

Miche, like anyone, has a right to express their beliefs. We can agree to disagree. And OFTEN we learn through discussions.....maybe not right that minute.....
---kathr4453 on 8/10/10


Prayer can change things in our lives and others. I believe. But we have to be doing the will of God. Everything is done according to God's will and way and not ours. If we are praying evil and soulish prayers, God does not hear those type prayers. God is not a "genie" who grants our every wish. He is too great and mighty to be used in this way. Selfish prayers are not in line with God's will. If we are living in absolute sin, prayers may not be answered. But I do believe God hear sincere prayer. Whether saved or unsaved. Humility,sincerity, faith moves the hand of God.
---Robyn on 8/10/10


Dan, may I ask what you are talking about? Just in case you haven't notice, I have apologized several times to many people on many subjects. So I am not sure who or what you are reading. But that is okay too. Please tell me what message you are trying to give me that I supposedly am not receiving? Like i said, sometimes in these blogs things can be misunderstood. I have done it before and so have others. If you feel I have been prideful in any way, please forgive me. On a different note, may I say that you should take a look at some of my few blog posts, maybe then you will see you are trying to correct something that isn't even there. Thank you and God bless
---miche3754 on 8/10/10


Miche, what I have noticed is that when someone gives help, you do not like to be corrected so you fight back to clear yourself. There is nothing wrong with learning. No one knows all. We are better serving the Lord in love. Pride is sin because it is a restrainer to believers. It keeps us from learning what the Holy Spirit wants to reveal. My message is in love.
---Dan on 8/10/10


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Here are some great scriptures to keep in mind!

Exodus 2:24
And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Psalm 105:8
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Psalm 106:45
And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

Luke 1:72
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant,
---kathr4453 on 8/10/10


Dan, not angry at all.
It is difficult to portray love in just words here on this site. Especially in only 125 words or less.
It gets frustrating for me when I can't seem to get out what I want to say. If I was angry, brother, why would I apologize for not being able to communicate properly with Shawn? Why would I put the blame on myself? Because it was my fault for not properly explaining myself.

Kath, that last post was amazing sis!

Shawn, I apologize again if I didn't explain myself properly. God bless you and Kath and everyone else on this site!
---miche3754 on 8/10/10


Here is my own personal experience. Romans 12:1-2....after we are saved, we surrender totally to God...end result..that we may KNOW the perfect will of God. THEN we go through trials..JAMES. As we go through these trials God's purpose is we LEARN HIS WILL, that we may be perfect and entire lacking nothing. BUT as baby Christians we don't know how, what to pray, until we are grounded in HIS WORD which reveals HIS WILL. SO the Holy Spirit intercedes in us through us according to HIS WILL. We mature to have the mind of Christ..

Now as we mature we are grounded more and more in the PROMISES of His will, word, Covenant promises.
---kathr4453 on 8/10/10


Yes, and God can change His mind. PRAY. Ask God or tell Him your preferences....Getting to know God not just through the word of God, but getting to know God because you love Him. Now, don't misunderstand: All prophecy's which are recorded in the Bible will take place. But, here, I am assuming that you are speaking of us individuals in everyday life. Ok?
---catherine on 8/10/10


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Miche, why do you have to get angry? what motivates you to get angry so fast? you should ask God to reveal that problem to you, and it will make you a much better sister, live and learn with love.
---Dan on 8/9/10


My point is Shawn, I didn't need you to answer it.
God already had.
I did read my posts.
I was putting my thoughts that I had in the process of the revelation down in these blogs, how God revealed it to me and the questions I asked
Is that wrong? I don't think it is.
Do you think God won't answer that, too?
Again, we have had this same discussion before and I explained this before.
Sometimes the questions that I asked God when learning end up here on the blogs. If we do not seek and ask, God will not reveal it, right? Maybe me putting it here will help someone else who asked those same questions. Sometimes I don't know any other way of explaining it. I apologize if it comes out wrong or is misunderstood.
---miche3754 on 8/9/10


-- Darlene_1 :

I shall never see that verse on prayer... as you do.... based on Strongs saying OUGHT means NEEDS, MUST or SHOULD BE.--Darlene

Sister, :-) Slow down and listen to what your sharing... Those meanings are for Ought NOT What !!!

So, According to Strongs Rom.8:26 can be read... We know not what we should pray for as we NEED, MUST or SHOULD BE.

Darlene, You're giving the meanings of 'Ought', and for some reason are trying to replace the word 'What' with HOW in Rom.8:26... and this is why you'll never See nor Hear the Lord clearly in Rom.8:26.


BTW~SOUNDS LIKE they think God won't change anything, is not polite, it's assuming!!!
---Shawn.M.T on 8/9/10


-- Miche :

If I was speculating, I would not have answered my own question.--Miche

Sister, Just b/c you answer your own question doesn't mean you were not speculating... Your own answer was still one of speculation!!!

Your answer was "I think that if not, God would have still effected his plan since he knows the path."--Miche

Speculation only begets more speculation, in the form of questions & answers of things which didn't happen the Way God's Foreseen Plan Effected Creation!!!



FYI~You should reread your post B4 posting b/c all post are swiftly Heard by me before carefully sharing a slow response that's without wrath :-) James 1:19

Thank You & God Bless.
---ShawnM.T. on 8/9/10


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God answers according to His Covenant promises. In the Old Covenant, it is if you will then I will. The New Covenant is "I WILL". However even in the OT, a promise is a promise regardless. Many times God will test US to. I believe Moses was tested. God's unconditional covenant was promises to Abraham, and Moses reminded God of those Promises. Not that God forgot, but the God tested Moses and Moses Prayed according to God's will....


God works in us both to will and do of His good pleasure. I see the Holy Spirit working in us what we ought, that is pray according to God's will.
Possible Hezekiah was tested teh same way...maybe he prayed in bitternes reminding God he had no son...

Any thoughts?
---kathr4453 on 8/9/10


Shawn, please read all of my posts.
I had already answered my question. I appreciate the advice but it was not something I needed an answer to.
If I was speculating, I would not have answered my own question.

I also believe you and I have had this same discussion before.

I am a very patient person, so, I am repeating myself.:-)
Please read all of my posts before you answer. In fact, read it a few times before you do. I do that myself to keep from assuming and 90% of the time it works unless I don't understand.
Thank you and God bless.
---miche3754 on 8/9/10


ShawnMT I shall never see that verse on prayer,Romans 8:26,we know not what we should pray for as we ought,as you do, because based on Strongs saying ought means it needs,must or should be. If it said we don't know what to pray for period,then I would agree,but it doesn't,it adds as we ought and when you put those meanings for ought it becomes how we should pray not what we should pray there's a big difference. I didn't assume anything about some saying God doesn't change,I was being polite in stating it that way,it had been said here and previous Blog by several and I disagree. Bible is full of God's changes including from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. We shall never agree so I wish you the best and I shall leave. Blessings to all.
---Darlene_1 on 8/9/10


I do not think so.
---Yvonne on 8/9/10


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Shawn T, those were great answers you have given. I know that when you answer you answer from God's perspective. For if the acts of man are in themselves uncertain, God must then wait until the event has had its issue before making His plans. In trying to convert a soul, He would be conceived of as working in the same manner that Napoleon is said to have gone into battle, with three or four plans in mind, so that if the first one failed, He could fall back upon the second, and if that failed, then the third and so on, a view which is inconsistent with a true view of His nature. He would then be ignorant of much of the future and would daily be gaining vast stores of knowledge. But God is Omniscient, who knows all things.
---MarkV. on 8/9/10


-- Miche :

It also makes me wonder what would have happened if Hezekiah had not asked for God's Will be done... Would God still have saved him?
---Miche


Sister, :-) Don't give yourself up to "Speculation". It will never bring you Peace & only leave you beside yourself... b/c what could have happened has happened since it was suppose to happened the way it happened and could not have happened any other way than the way God has Foreknown it to happen.

We know all things work together for the good of those who Love God. So instead of speculating, Pray that the Blessings of God's Will be revealed to you so you may Praise & Walk in the Grace of them!!!

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/9/10


Thank you Shawn. It was revealed to me like that because I asked God about it and spoke with my church teacher. He explained it wonderfully.

I had an idea that it was that way. I was just tripped up by the way you and Kath had explained it. I didn't understand. For that I apologize to both you and Kath. You were both trying to explain it and I just was not getting it. It happens sometimes.

So really it is us praying as Christ told us to in the Lord's prayer. That God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
It also makes me wonder what would have happened if Hezekiah had not asked for God's will to be done. Would God still have saved him?
I think that if not, God would have still effected his plan since he knows the path.
---miche3754 on 8/8/10


-- Darlene_1 :

Sister, Actually you assumed on 8/6/10 sounds like they think God won't change anything

No one said God won't change anything. The Foreknowledge of God's Omniscience does extend to prayers & our Salvation in Christ. God renews the spirit of our minds but His Foreknowledge doesn't change.

God FOREKNEW(not pre-picked or excluded) who shall be Saved & who won't BTFOTW when He Chose to Predestine His Create. Eph.1:4-14,Rom.8:28-30,1Peter 1:2


BTW~Romans 8:26 does mean we know not WHAT(not How) we should pray for as we ought... b/c previously Rom.8:24-25 shared we're Saved by Hope THAT WE SEE NOT, and this is WHAT we know not what we should pray for as we ought!!!
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/8/10


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ShawnMT,my belief,God has Omnipotence & Omnisience. I said God's foreknowledge doesn't exclude any from being saved. He doesn't prepick ones and throw away the rest. My prayers aren't outside anything of Gods,they are in line with God's guidelines. Mark 11:23,24 For verily I say unto you,That whosoever shall say unto this mountain,Be you removed and be you cast into the sea,and shall not doubt in his heart,but shall believe that those things which he says shall come to pass,he shall have whatsoever he says. Therefore I say unto you,What things soever you desire,when you pray,believe you will receive them,and you shall have them. Romans 8,26-for we know not what we should pray for as we ought-(should-obligation),means,don't know how to pray.
---Darlene_1 on 8/7/10


Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song
, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

28 bowls indicates that He hears all prayers and some prayer is held. Held until when? It seems when we learn to sing a 'new song' recognizing God's will as opposed to our own.

Prayer will change you one way or the other.
---aka on 8/7/10


-- Miche :

I think this essentially goes back to praying for God's will to be done.
To know this we must be in the Spirit to Hear that still small voice that tells us what should be done. What Choice to make.

It is like the Bible tells us God knows already what we need and want but we still have to pray and ask.
We have not b/c we ask not.
So when we pray and ask what He wants for us, He reveals it and changes our situation to what He already Wills and Knows.
---miche3754 on 8/7/10

Amen~Sister~Amen, Through prayer we're renewed in the spirit of our mind, TBTG, so we may Prove what is that Good, Acceptable & Perfect Will of God !!! Eph.4:22-24, Rom.12:2

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---ShawnM.T. on 8/7/10


probably when done frequently and with the right attitude the best thing about prayer is it changes us.
---tom2 on 8/7/10


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Cluny, Shawn T, Allan great answers. Allan gave a good reason why the changes were done to Hezekiah, what looks to man like a change, is not really any change. Even the answers of prayers are already included in the plan of God. They look to man like God is continuing to change, they are but inducements God uses to get the results He already had planned from the foundation of the world. God is Omniscience who knows all, and never learns something new,
"Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus "before time began," but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ,"
---MarkV. on 8/7/10


Could it be God already knew what Hezekiah would ask, and already knew even before Hezekiah asked what His answer would be.
---kathr4453 on 8/6/10

Yes he did know.

I think this eccentially goes back to praying for God's will to be done.
To know this we must be in the spirit to hear that still small voice that tells us what should be done. What choice to make.

It is like the bible tells us God knows already what we need and want but we still have to pray and ask.
We have not because we ask not.
So when we pray and ask what he wants for us, he reveals it and changes our situation to what he already wills and knows.
---miche3754 on 8/7/10


yes i agree also Darlene Cluny did give a good analogy...........Cluny i do think you may be tuning into the Good Lord !
---Lea on 8/6/10


-- Darlene_1 :

Sister, The Omnipotence & Omniscience of God's Foreknowledge He's Declared is the Eternal NOW He experiences of ALL THINGS(not just somethings) past, present & future... and Saving Faith is undermined only when you don't Trust & Believe in it!!!

Your Faith seem to believe(your prayers) and other things are outside of God's Trusted Omniscience, when we know not what we should pray for anyway.

WE'RE CALLED TO PRAY with the substance of things Hope for, evidence of things unseen of God's Foreknown Glory in Christ, and it through this Saving Faith we wait with patience for those prayers to be answered, as the Spirit helps our infirmities by making intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
---ShawnM.T. on 8/6/10


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Earl,either I misunderstood Cluny or you misunderstood both of us. Cluny wasn't avocating foreknowledge and I'm against it,if it means only forechoosen saved. Gods foreknowedge knows who will come to him through his son Jesus who he gave as the lamb to die for the sins of the whole world. Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and you shall be saved,and thy house. Romans 3:22 Even the righteous of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe,for there is no difference. Romans 10:9 if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,and shall believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you shall be saved.
---Darlene_1 on 8/6/10


-- Mike :

Brother, God doesn't want our suffering, He is Forgiving when we pray in Faith with Hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it as the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
---Shawn.M.T on 8/6/10


I do Know that Prayer is my lifeline to God and i sure could not go a day with out being in his presence.I would feel empty if i didn't talk to my Lord on a daily basic. I had rather talk to him than any human being on this earth, because he loves me like no other that i know and he feeds me daily bread, he encourages me, loves me unconditionally. And when i have a need i take it to him sometimes he answers right away some times he doesn't do i get discouraged, yes i do but he has never let me down yet. And Yes Prayer does change things, this is how we communicate to God. We talk to each other why not spend quality time in his Presence.
---Lea on 8/6/10


Darlene and cluny.Pickey,pickey,:D.I could have said,Is God not omniscient?
But then you might have said foreknowledge is more appropriate.
---earl on 8/6/10


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my prayers did not change my emotional trauma.
if this statement is true, then this is what god wants for us - to suffer & add more punishment for our suffering bec of our SIN
---mike on 8/6/10


I doubt somewhat that anything really convinces God to change his mind about anything. But habitual prayer certainly changes for the better the one praying!
---ger.toshav on 8/6/10


This question is basically limited to the subset of prayer's types made to try to influence God on one way or another. This category has exceeded limited effectively.

You can't change God grand skeme of things, you may be able to alter a non critical event out come in some way and that is about it. Basically what was meant to happen is going to happen. If there is a critical node out come involved forget it, it will not be changed.
---Friendly_Blogger on 8/6/10


Cluny that was a wonderful explanation,and makes more sense than foreknowledge belief. To all of who adhere to foreknowledge in salvation and prayer. Food for thought. If God operates on foreknowledge,if not on list can't be saved,your view. Now saying his forknowledge extends to prayer and whats going to happen and sounds like they think God won't change anything even if we ask/pray,you can't put God in a box,what I see you doing is undermining your faith. Name and claim it is what you're doing too,you'll never receive anything from God that you can't pray and have faith for. Hebrews 11:6 but without faith it is impossible to please him,for he that comes to God must believe he is,and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
---Darlene_1 on 8/6/10


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I believe foreknowledge means He KNOWS the beginning from the end. God had foreknowledge of Calvary, yet Calvary wasn't experienced until 2000 years ago. Isaiah 53 didn't happen until 2000 years ago. If Israel had repented would there be a Calvary, would God have changed His mind?

Matthew 6:8b
8: b for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Here in Isaiah 65 we have something yet future, yet God already knows how and what He will answer.
Isaiah 65:24
And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer, and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Could it be God already knew what Hezekiah would ask, and already knew even before Hezekiah asked what His answer would be.
---kathr4453 on 8/6/10


Something to think about.

It is important to remember that during this "extra" 15 years, Hezekiah had a son named Manasseh,who became king at age twelve. Why is this significant? Manasseh was in the linage of Christ who was pre-ordained before the foundation of the world
1 Pet. 1:19-20.

Matthew 1:10 says, "Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, and so on.

Without Hezekiah's extra 15 years, Manasseh would not have been born( his only son) and Christs lineage destroyed.

It would appear to man that God changed His mind. This shows God did not change his original plan or mind.

Also note Hezekiah never asked for healing.
---Allan on 8/6/10


-- Cluny :

Our prayers may be an ingredient

Brother, No may be about it : Prayer is an ingredient God has Foreknown to be in His Receipt of Creation!!!

Isaiah comes to Hezekiah telling him God says to take care of his affairs b/c he is going to die. Hezekiah prayed unto God and before Isaiah even left, the Lord said to Isaiah turn & tell Hezekiah I have heard his prayer and will Heal & added 15 years to his life. 2Kings 20:1-6

What God had Foreknown & Declared in the End form the Beginning doesn't change. It's the Nature of man's mind that changes from knowing God has heard their prayers.

BTW~God's Eternal NOW is Him experiencing ALL THINGS(not just somethings) past, present & future.
---ShawnM.T. on 8/6/10


Prayer changes things. Look at the Patriarchs of the Bible (Abraham, Moses, etc.). They were able to change God's mind on things simply by asking Him in prayer. For example, Abraham asked God to spare lives during the time of Sodom and Gamorrah, and God spared the lives of those that were righteous. With the state of America and the World, we can do the same in prayer. Yes, prophecy has to be fulfilled, but we also have the power to change God's mind. We are the watchmen on the wall that must sound the trumpet (intercede for our nation), and if we don't then God will hold us accountable as well. Like the saying goes, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
---Leslie on 8/6/10


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\\Your prayers do not change the foreknowledge of God.\\

"Foreknowledge" is a bad word to use in this context.

It implies that God has experienced some things in the past, some He experiences in the present, and anticipates other things in the future.

Rather, all is the eternal NOW to God.

He sees reality as it really is, not the way we do as a parade of successive events.
---Cluny on 8/5/10


Exodus 32:11-14 records a tremendous prayer of intercession, that of Moses in pleading to God that Israel not be destroyed for their idolatry. This led to God aborting a pre-announced judgment. (God makes it very clear that He will - or at least wants to - destroy Israel)

Then come Moses' prayer, Exo 32:11-14, where he gives three reasons why God should not destroy the people:
---Lea on 8/5/10


2 Kings 20:1-6 Hezekiah
v1, Isaiah comes to Hezekiah and tells him that God says for him to take care of his affairs because he is going to die.
v2 and 3, Hezekiah prayed
v4, 5 and 6, before Isaiah even left the Lord had answered Hezekiah prayers
God told Isaiah to turn around and tell Hezekiah that he heard his prayers for healing. God healed him and added 15 years to Hezekiah's life.

If you don't believe me, go and read it for yourself.
---miche3754 on 8/6/10


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