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Is If Faith By Works

In (James 2:17-18) James talks about Faith by works. This is a very confusing when you consider what Paul taught. Just what is Faith by Works?

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Paul was essentially saved on the road to Damascus, when he had a vision and his life was changed or he decided to change his life. It was probably glaringly obvious to Paul that this divine intervention in his life was not because of his works. Nevertheless, when we look at his life after that event, it is filled with mighty works. I think Peter and James seemed to emphasize works because Paul so strongly emphasized grace and faith. Indeed some of their writings seem to directly address issues raised about Paul's teachings. It seems obvious that Paul taught strongly against the necessity of the "old" works (old testament ritualistic practices), but yet he also seems to teach strongly about living a good and proper life.
---chris on 9/21/10


I think we become overly concerned regarding works because we think works have to be a big deal and planned activities. A Christian Believer is designed for good works. They do not need to be extravagant. A smile on your face when you would rather be doing something else is an encouragement and a good work. Taking care of family is a good work. Giving a person a ride somewhere. Going out of your way for a stranger is a huge work:). Jesus said that "when you do it for the least of these, you do it for me"....a cup of water? Good works but not necessarily fancy. Also, its all in the attitude "love". However, the Bible does teach that some will have no works but will be saved. 1st last/last1st.
---jody on 9/21/10


Kathr:

Jesus was speaking of HIMSELF counting the cost. Shame on you again.

Revelation 22:17 "The spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' And let the one who is thirsty come, let the one who wishes take the water of life WITHOUT COST."

It seems you have an issue with scripture, not me. Jesus would say shame on you again.

I'm sorry to have to tell you that you have followed men rather than God. The petals are falling off your T.U.L.I.P., and you're attempting to reattach them with Elmer's glue.
---James_L on 9/21/10


Hebrews 11 is PERFECT to show faith does not live alone. I absolutely LOVE each and every one of these examples of Faith in action.

JamesL scoffed at a statement, grace is free, but will cost you everything. It will. We are told to consider the COST. It will COST you everything in this world, just as Moses was placed as an example. Egypt represents the world.

Galatians 6...we are crucified to the world and the world to us. John says it's the lust of the flesh, the eyes and the pride of life..and is of the devil.

You CAN"T have both worlds, or serve two masters.
---kathr4453 on 9/21/10


There are 4 types of faith: (1) saving - for salvation (NO works required), (2) general - after salvation, the Bible says we have ALL been given a measure of faith (this is the faith that requires work), (3) fruit of faith - faithfulness (requires work), (4) gift of faith - God's faith to do miracles (requires work). The first faith does NOT require work, but the other three do require work. Faith with work is putting feet to your faith. If God asks you to do something, the work you do is in your obedience to do it. That is faith with works.
---Leslie on 9/20/10




///Most people have to learn who the speaker was talking to.
The original Apostles where speaking to the Jews only because that was their instructions from Jesus when he was here on earth---Royal on 9/17/10///

Amen Royal, it makes all the difference.
---michael_e on 9/19/10


When James is speaking of "faith by works" he is simply stating that works are the outward appearance of the faith that is within.

When we act according to the faith that is within us, others see our good works and it glorifies God.

Lord bless you all.
---trey on 9/18/10


Most people have to learn who the speaker was talking to.
The original Apostles where speaking to the Jews only because that was their instructions from Jesus when he was here on earth.
Here is what Jesus told the Canaanite woman

(Matt 15:21 [NET])
After going out from there, Jesus went to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

(Matt 15:22 [NET])
A Canaanite woman from that area came and cried out, Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is horribly demon-possessed!

(Matt 15:24 [NET])
So he answered, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Royal on 9/17/10


Faith that does nothing is not faith. It is an statment. That faith is like the love of a person who tells the girl he will love her tonight.

It is phoney. True love and true faith are both revealed by actions.

The thief on the cross had not time to do any works. But he spoke and professed his faith in JESUS. So he is saved.

But if he had gotten off the cross and lived and went back to his old ways it would have shown that he was lying.

We are saved by Grace alone. But Grace never lives alone.
---Samuel on 9/17/10


for he looked to the reward.

He looked to THE Reward...not A reward.
---kathr4453 on 9/16/10




JamesL Moses did not value the treasures of Egypt..but the RICHES that are IN CHRIST, Christ Himself.

Thus, Hebrews 11:24-26 is surprising, By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaohs daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,esteeming the reproaches of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked to the reward.


buy of me Gold TRIED in the FIRE that you may be rich....
---kathr4453 on 9/16/10


Kathr:
In typical MacArthur fashion, everything in your last post sounded neat and clean, but can't be demonstrated from Scripture. Have I not gone to great lengths to show context, word definitions, similar passages in other books and such? But all you've done is ask accusing questions without answering any from Scripture. That is, unless you're taking one out of context. Rhetoric

Did you not read Hebrews 11? Moses was looking to the reward. But you're even holier than that great saint. Keep reading. Jesus endured suffering FOR THE JOY SET BEFORE HIM. But you're more pious than Christ Himself? He who began a good work? Study it, please. That's talking about the collection of money to further the gospel. Shame on you again.
---James_L on 9/15/10


Dead faith has no aliveness.

We will be judged with things in the body and out of the body. Jesus aliveness in me, His resurrection life in me, continuing to work in me, He who began a good work will continue....I WILL NOT BE REWARDED FOR. To GOD be the Glory!! Thank YOU Jesus for all you are, have done and will do!

JamesL are you only motivated by rewards, getting something for what YOU think you do? You think you should be rewarded for Christ breaking the power of sin in you? Justification does not break the power of sin. Jesus didn't save you to leave you in sin.

James is talking about SIN...a loose fleshly tongue, worldliness, refusing the fellowship of His sufferings!! and then some.

God is MY REWARD!!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/15/10


Kathr:
"Faith without obedience is dead faith!!! Counterfeit faith!"

Now that we're back the the original passage in question, shame on you. Dead doesn't mean counterfeit, or fake. James' analogy is a dead body. Where do you get the idea that a dead body is a counterfeit body? If you have a dead battery in your car would you say it's a fake battery? Only if it was fake when you put it in. Do you know what faithful means? It means faith that is full. That's the thrust of this passage. We will be judged (2:12) to determine the fullness (alive-ness) of our faith, not the reality of our faith. Then we will be rewarded based on the fullness of our faith. Dead faith will not be rewarded.
---James_L on 9/14/10


JamesL we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I know from my own personal experience that for many yeas I believed myself to be saved. Yes, I believed all that one is to believe to be saved. HOWEVER, something was terribly missing...a personal intimate relationship of growing in the grace and Knowledge of Him, of KNOWING the fellowship of His Sufferings and the POWER of His Resurrection.

O didn't OBEY Romans 12:1 & 2 total surrender after salvation, so that I could know God's will or Romans 6-8 and Galatians 2:20-21 of having Christ formed in me, He living through me. In Galatians Paul is talking to already Christians about GROWING Spiritually, THIS is the obedience of living by faith after salvation.
---kathr4453 on 9/15/10


Kathr:
"ROM 16:25-26 says, 'Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel... made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.'"

"Again we find that we cannot separate faith from obedience."

You are misreading into that passage. Have you read Romans 1:5? "we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among the Gentiles"

Paul is saying that faith IS obedience. Faith is the work of God. It's obededience because we do not reject the gospel. Try reading John 6:27-29 "Do not work for food which perishes, but for food which endures to eternal life...What shall we do to work the work of God?...that you believe in Him whom He has sent"
---James_L on 9/14/10


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The gospel has as clearly identified faith with obedience as it has identified unbelief with disobedience. ROM 16:25-26 says, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith."

Again we find that we cannot separate faith from obedience. If a person is walking in disobedience, he is walking in unbelief. Faith without obedience is dead faith!!! Counterfeit faith!
---kathr4453 on 9/14/10


1 Peter 1:3-5
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

JamesL , are you still saying sanctification is rewarded with rewards?
---kathr4453 on 9/14/10


Kathr4453:
You're right that James' teaching compliments Paul's. BUT, not in the way you think. Paul taught that a man is made righteous APART FROM works. Various bibles word it different - without, irrespective of, etc. What Paul said is that whether you have works or not, faith in Christ's atoning work is ALL you need to go to heaven. We are FREE from the Law (of Moses). James is telling us that we will be judged by the Law of Liberty (2:12). There is nothing in Scripture that says we will be judged twice. So this judgment James mentions is at the Judgment Seat of Christ - For Rewards

Then 2 verses later, He asks whether faith by itself will save us. From what? FROM JUDGMENT. From losing our rewards.
---James_L on 9/13/10


Several problems with your view:

It is developed from the preconceived notion that only good people go to heaven.

It makes a mockery of God's intelligence. The commands and exhortations carry a natural understanding that we may not obey.

It reduces all the warnings in the New Testament to mere hypotheticals, which again makes a mockery of God's intelligence. All those warnings are written to Christians.

It fails to make a distinction between the spirit and the flesh, which shows a complete misunderstanding of the new birth and resulting new creation. We are now a completely sinless spirit dwelling in corrupt flesh.

It leads to erroneous statements like "the gospel is free, but costs you everything"
---James_L on 9/13/10


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Faith by works = putting action to your faith, putting feet to your faith. When God asks you to do something that is hard to do, you do it out of obedience, knowing that God will take care of you. For example, if God asks you to move to the poorest part of Africa, you obey knowing He will take care of your financial needs.
---Leslie on 9/13/10


James teaching on works complement, not contradict Pauls teaching on faith. While Pauls teaching concentrate on our justification with God, James teachings concentrate on the works that exemplify that justification. James was writing to Jews to encourage them to continue growing in this new Christian faith, Just as Paul encouraged Gentiles in Galatians.
James emphasizes that good actions will naturally flow from those who are filled with the Spirit and questions whether someone may or may not have a saving faith if the fruits of the Spirit cannot be seen, much as Paul describes in Galatians 5:22-25. Gal 2:20-21, along with being crucified to the world and the world to US. James also states friendship with this world are enemies of God!!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/13/10


James, Read all concerning rewards.

ALL run but only ONE win? Corinthians...so Paul says I buffet my body and bring all into subjection, that I have not run in vain.

Paul also said I have FINISHED my course, I've run the race, there is now laid up for me a Crown...He's not taking about his sanctification, but His CALLING as a preacher of the Gospel.

Jesus said, if you give one of these a cup of water, you will be rewarded.

If you receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, you will receive a righteous man's reward.

James we are SANCTIFIED ONCE AND FOR ALL through the body of Christ.Hebrews. God sees us as Sanctified NOW, positionally. James is now talking about experientially through suffering!
---kathr4453 on 9/13/10


1 THESSALONIANS 1:3 Remembering without
ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and labour of love, and patience of hope --------
GALATION 2:16 KNOWING that a man is NOT JUSTTIFIED BY WORKS OF THE LAW ------

( WORKS are obeying the laws of GOD. But by doing this work, that we do, DOES NOT get us save.)
---RICHARD on 9/12/10


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Kathr4453:
"Sanctificatin is the work of Christ in you conforming you to His Image. NO SELF EFFORT WORKS can sanctify you. Nor does God RERWARD YOU for HIS work in you!!!"

"JamesL, Paul in Corinthinas explains rewards a Gold silver and precious stone OR wood hay and stubble. The latter will burn yet that person will still be saved."

Those are YOUR words above. Would you care to explain how you can make two contradictory statements like that and still have the conficence to assert your next few gems of gibberish? If all the good works are none of our doing, and God doesn't reward us for his work, what is a reward for gold, silver, gems? Will some of God's work burn as wood, hay and stubble?
---James_L on 9/12/10


Kathr4453:
"NO SELF EFFORT WORKS..."
"believe me"
(again, your words.)

But here are some of Jesus' words:

"Beware practicing YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS before men

"But when YOU give to the poor...your Father who sees what is done in secret WILL REWARD YOU."

When YOU pray...your Father who sees what is done in secret WILL REWARD YOU."
(Matt 6:1-7)

Hmmm...I'm not sure about anyone else, but I prefer Jesus' words to yours.

Maybe you should put a little less effort into dividing the word and get back to just reading it. Leave the dividing to those who are more capable.
---James_L on 9/12/10


James, Jesus came to breaking the power of sin in us,we are SAINTS..set apart. He said BE YE HOLY for God is Holy and without HOLINESS NO ONE will see the Lord.

Sanctificatin is the work of Christ in you conforming you to His Image. NO SELF EFFORT WORKS can sanctify you. Nor does God RERWARD YOU for HIS work in you!!!

Those whom God has Justified He has Also GLORIFIED. If He's Glorified you, believe me He has Sanctified you.

ALL CHRIST WORK is a perfect 7, Includes,

Justification =7
Sanctification =7
Glorification =7

Self salvation,(6) Sanctification,(6)glorification(6) fall short!
WORKS to be rewarded might be witnessing to Lost souls or just plain RIGHTLY DIVIDING the Word of TRUTH!!!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/11/10


Kathr4453:
//JamesL, Paul in Corinthinas explains rewards a Gold silver and precious stone OR wood hay and stubble. The latter will burn yet that person will still be saved.//

You are correct, believers will be judged according to our works (sanctification) to determine rewards. If all our works are burned, we will suffer loss. SAVED (without sanctification) as one escaping through flames, with no rewards


//There is no such thing a true salvation without SANCTIFICATION!!!//

Not sure what "true salvation" is, but it is apparently not the same salvation that Paul taught. You just contradicted the previous scripture you referenced.
---James_L on 9/10/10


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JamesL, Paul in Corinthinas explains rewards a Gold silver and precious stone OR wood hay and stubble. The latter will burn yet that person will still be saved.

James is talking about sanctification through SUFFERING Chapter 1..our trials and testings bringing perfection..of which Paul re-iterates in Philippians 3. The fellowship of His Sufferings, our identification with Him.Phil 2 Keeping this mind in you that wa also in Christ Jesus...

Abraham suffered in being asked to sacrifice Isaac, as a TYPE of God laying Jesus on the alter as well.

There is no such thing a true salvation without SANCTIFICATION!!!

Christ came to save, sanctify and Glorify...not just save!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/9/10


James' epistle is addressed to the Jews of the dispersion (James 1:1)
1. Acts 8:1 -Persecution was launched against the Hebrew church at Jerusalem (about the time that James, the brother of John, killed, Acts 12:1).
2. Acts 11:19 - These believers scattered kept their Hebrew orientation and kingdom hope.
The book maintains the context of law keeping in the practical walk of the believer.
1. James 2:7-10, 4:11 - By way of example.
2. Acts 21:18-24 This was the mind set of James.
3. Gal. 2:1-19 - The contention that clearly denotes the differences in the kingdom and grace dispensations, and the differences between the Twelve and Paul.
---michael_e on 9/8/10


James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Keyword is 'shew', as to others, for God already knows the heart and has sealed you with the Holy Spirit.
Show others your faith by works?
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
James 3:17-18 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
---micha9344 on 9/8/10


//Just what is Faith by Works?//

Simply put, IF you do somthing THEN God will do something.
Good example: IF you repent and are baptised, THEN you will recieve the HS.

If you don't adhere to 2 Tim 2:15 (rightly divide) James will confuse you.
James 1:1 writes, "to the twelve tribes"...

Rom. 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek".. Paul writes to all.
---michael_e on 9/8/10


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Kathr4453:

Actually, James is not talking about initial salvation, and he's not talking about a "continual way of life resulting from salvation" either. The tragedy of section headings in modern bibles is that people start reading AFTER the context is shown.

Back up to verse 12, James is talking about the Judgment Seat of Christ (rewards). Verse 14 asks if we show up for rewards with faith by itself, can we be saved from losing our rewards? obviously, no. Our rewards will be based on faith PLUS works. Go ahead, read it.
---James_L on 9/8/10


Homer, in James, please take the word WORKS and replace it with OBEDIENCE or actions. James uses the word works where Paul uses the word obedience...They are both saying the same thing...just using different words..however the definition is exactly the same no matter what word is used. If you think it means works of the Law...where in the law does it say we are to sacrifice our children on an alter..or lie to our neighbors?

Paul agrees with that as well in Romans 16:24-27 stating FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH to all nations.

Faith WORKS through LOVE. AND Jesus said IF you LOVE ME you WILL OBEY ME!!!

James is not talking about initial salvation, but a continual way of life resulting from salvation.
---kathr4453 on 8/27/10


Romans 8:29
God knew before hand (proginosko) who would believe! Its God decision to conform these people to the image of Christ. He calls those people, he justifies them and glorifies them.

1 John 1:12
But as many as received him, to THEM (who? those that received him!) gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

When do we get this power? Once again... AFTER we believe!

Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
---JackB on 8/21/10


The Book of Life is written, God knows who are saved, He knew from the beginning of time.---micha9344 on 8/19/10

So by this statement you are saying Yes, that you do believe in Predestination as taught by Calvin.
Thanks for responding, this info will be helpful when I respond to you.
---David on 8/20/10


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One supports what they believe in.
If we are believing the true Word of Elohyim-Yeshua-Jesus Christ, you will support that belief.
Jesus will know you.
Luke 24:44-49
---char on 8/20/10


This is how I understand it.
The Book of Life is written, God knows who are saved, He knew from the beginning of time.
He knows what influences we will have, what decisions we will make, and what time we will make them. He guides our paths for His will, both believers and unbelievers.
Believers have the Holy Spirit on which to rely on for our daily walk in righteousness.
Do we mess up? Yes...
Did God already know and had it planned around His will? Yes...
God has it all mapped out.. we can just see horizontally. When we get a glimpse of the vertical, the view is breath-taking.
God doesn't want robots, but that means some will decide otherwise. He still knows and is heart-broken.
---micha9344 on 8/19/10


-The other option is God did not know.
-Is that what you are saying David?---micha9344 on 8/18/10

Micha
We know that God knows the Future, as evidenced by his Prophets, but is an individuals future predestined as taught by John Calvin?
From your earlier statement I thought you believed as John Calvin believed.

I was trying to figure out the direction you were going when you made the comment,
"God already knew Abraham's actions before he made them."

Are you a predestination teacher?
Just want to know.
---David on 8/19/10


//The Word of Elohyim produces fruit-from Elohyim.// char

you can't argue with that can you? :~)

Praise Elohyim!
---aka on 8/18/10


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//then would God find the need to test Abraham's Faith,(Hebrews 11:17) why then would God need to test us if the outcome is known? //

To test does not only mean to quiz. It also means to prove.

For God to know the outcome is to say that He knows all possible outcomes given the proper ingredients and execution.

If i mix water, all purpose flour, an egg, and a little heat, i am going to get a pancake. If I execute right, I know the outcome.

Since God knows the ingredients (Abraham and his faith and a little heat). He will know the outcome because He knows how to execute. The outcome proves (tests) Abraham and us.
---aka on 8/18/10


-The other option is God did not know.
-Is that what you are saying David?
Jeremiah 20:12 But, O LORD of hosts, that triest the righteous, [and] seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.
1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature, because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth, for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
-Label me what you will.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
---micha9344 on 8/18/10


I don't see it as confusing, Homer.

True faith in God produces GOD'S works.
We are told that we are the body of Christ. His hands, his feet, I am sure you are getting the picture here.
BUT Christ is the head.

The head tells the body what to do.
That is the kind of works that James talks about.

A good example of works without faith and what happens to that work is found in 1 Corinthians 3.
Many believe Paul is talking about when we get to heaven but he is not is talking about the work we are doing for God now.
If Christ is the foundation, it will make it through the fire. If not, the work is burned up.
---ginger on 8/18/10


God already knew Abraham's actions before he made them and knew his heart. ---micha9344 on 8/17/10
Do you have a verse that supports this statement?

Micha why then would God find the need to test Abraham's Faith,(Hebrews 11:17) why then would God need to test us if the outcome is known?

Your statement supports John Calvin's teachings, are you a follower of Calvin?
---David on 8/18/10


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-David you're still backwards.
Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
-It was Abraham's faith in God and His promises that produced good works and obedience which then was counted as righteousness because of his belief.
God already knew Abraham's actions before he made them and knew his heart.
Faith before works.
Works because of faith.
Obedience because of faith.
Not obedience to gain faith.
Not obedience nor works to gain salvation.
Works and obedience are the evidence of salvation through faith to the outside world for God already knows the heart.
---micha9344 on 8/17/10


The do nothings and the figless tree is condemned. God says, "If you believe, act and do my commandments, else you be lying lip-server only. Why call you all me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? If you all love me, my commandments keep. The Command is, Go preach to the lost, make disciples of all nations, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty, be a friend to the friendless, a father to the fatherless, heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons, love the stranger and love your enemies. Thus let shine your light in the sight of persons that they may see your good Works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
---Eloy on 8/17/10


///deceiving themselves. James 1:22 says, "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." Our works are an outward expression of the fulness of our hearts, and of our joy in the Lord, or our lack thereof.
---tommy3007 on 8/14/10 ///


Amen.
---char on 8/17/10


Your works won't save you. Only believng in Yeshua-will.

The adversary has another word-instead.
The Word of Elohyim produces fruit-from Elohyim.
The adversary convinces' the World to believe in words and then do not give Jesus Christ(Word) the glory.
Ex:
"Do not to others what yo would not like yourself"-Confucius'Analects 12:2
"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.'-Buddist Udana Varga5:1
"this is the sum of duty:do naught unto others what you would have them do to you."Hindu Mahabharata5:1517

When you believe in the word(Christ)-Eloyhim Works through you--you-produce fruits of His Spirit.(Gal5:22)
He alone gets the Glory.

Rom3:2 Where is the boasting?
---char on 8/17/10


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You must believe in the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ-or you are still just working-serving what you believe as truth.(idolatry)
_YOUR WORKS will not save you.

Rom3-(all)Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is Christ Jesus:Whom God hat set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His Blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God...
Rom 7:6
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law,did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERD FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
---char on 8/17/10


you don't work to gain faith.
faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
---micha9344 on 8/16/10

(Romans 2:13)
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

Notice the above verse does not say that the hearer of the law will be declared righteous, but it is the doer of the law who will be declared Righteous.

Declared Righteous? What example did Paul give as one who was declared righteous?
(Romans 4:3)
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Wasnt it Abrahams obedience to God which God counted unto Abraham as faith?
(Hebrews 11: 17-19) & (James 2:23)
---David on 8/17/10


David, I do not see it either.
you have added to tommy's statement making it not his anymore.
faith does not equal good works.
good works are evidence of faith.
you don't work to gain faith.
faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
---micha9344 on 8/16/10


David, I did not read that in tommy's response.---aka on 8/16/10

Here is his response, do you see it now?

IF their "salvation experience" (Salvation)doesn't produce good works (Faith) in them, they are deceiving themselves.---tommy3007 on 8/14/10
---David on 8/16/10


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Att:Jim
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and He will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at His right hand, Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.
---Lea on 8/16/10


David, I did not read that in tommy's response. Tommy, I agree with you. James calls it works, Paul calls it fruit. The parable of the sower and the seed seems to indicate that faith is a continuing process, and it either grows and produces or it dies.

Scripture is God-breathed. If it is in their, it is their for a reason, and there is no error. Remember, God knows how to separate the wheat from the chaff. So, James may be addressing 12, God is talking to the new creature in Christ.

and if this verse causes problems, maybe we need to take a look at ourselves and see what God is really saying and not rely on our understanding of works.
---aka on 8/16/10


so let us say you lost your job & you have faith that you will have another.
but if you don't start sending resumes, polishing your interview skills, wearing business clothes just sitting down & waiting for the employers to call you you will not get a job. your faith is dead.

another is if you have faith in having a relationship but is not 'proactive' in interacting, then your faith is dead

abraham did not sit down when god called him to go to a land. he stood up & walked to the promise land.

that is what christians think of faith. sit down & everthing will work out itself.
---mike on 8/16/10


This is a good example of "text out of context---tommy3007 on 8/14/10

Tommy
Every clearly written verse is "out of context" if it doesn't go along with one's doctrine.
With that said, let me show you that what you believe is wrong.

From what you said in your post, you believe that Salvation comes before Faith.
How can this be when Paul said that we are saved by Grace through our Faith?
If we are saved by Grace through Faith, how could Salvation come before Faith?
---David on 8/16/10


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Its very simple. Your faith in Christ brings the Holy Ghost into your heart and HE is the cause of your good works. Your heart is changed by Him and the works are a result of that transformation.

So FAITH does save. But its the OBJECT of your faith that determines whether its the right faith. If its in YOUR ability to follow Gods laws, you will fail miserably and spend eternity separated from Him. If its faith in Gods promises thru Jesus Christ and HIS power to change you, then its a proper faith.
---JackB on 8/14/10


Well, don't get confused: The faith is dead, being alone. As the worthlessness of well-wishers reveal their selfishness, so barrenness in a professing believer's life exposes his insincerity>>>James is referring to specifically to the faith which is claimed, not the genuine brand.
---catherine on 8/14/10


//James talks about Faith by works// James 1:1.. to the twelve tribes..
The book of James is full of legalism. James mentions grace twice, from a legalistic standpoint. Never mentions the Body of Christ, salvation, the blood of Christ or the resurrection.
Paul talks about faith + nothing from trhe dispensation of grace standpoint. He gives us the the Gospel 1 Cor.15:4 He was given the message for the BoC
They address two different people.
James, the nation of Israel.
Paul the BoC
---michael_e on 8/14/10


more_excellent_way is correct.
John 6:28,29 "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?". "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent".

Anything other than this is self-works which is not what God is looking for.
---Haz27 on 8/14/10


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This is a good example of "text out of context." James said, "I will show you my faith 'by my works.'" A person can say they are saved all they want, but, IF their "salvation experience" doesn't produce good works in them, they are deceiving themselves. James 1:22 says, "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." Our works are an outward expression of the fulness of our hearts, and of our joy in the Lord, or our lack thereof.
---tommy3007 on 8/14/10


***please do not muddy up the gospel and lead Homer astray. ---JIM on 8/13/10***

The doctrine of faith without works is what has led me astay Jim. David seems to be able to prove what he says, and all he says is clearly written in the Bible. If you have a problem with what David teaches you are the one who muddies up the gospels.

David how does this faith by works cause me to trust in God the way Abraham did?
---Homer on 8/13/10


Works to gain faith is of the devil.
---mima on 8/13/10

Really Mima?
So you honestly believe that James is of the Devil?
Interesting, I was not aware of that.

(James 2:22)
"You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did."
---David on 8/13/10


I agree mima........
---JIM on 8/13/10


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Rom 3:28 "Therefor we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law"
What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that wich it is not in his power to do for himself.
Works of law cannot atone for past sins. Justification cannot be earned. It can be received only by faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ. To be justified without works mean to be justified without there being anythinng in ourselves to merit justification.
Conclusion: although obedience to the law is not the means of justificaton, a person who
beieves that he/she is justified still keeps the law, not because he/she wants to be saved but becaue he/se is saved.
---Pierre on 8/13/10


Works to gain faith is of the devil.

Works that are caused by faith are of God.
---mima on 8/13/10


David said:"The goats in the parable are those who believe that they shall enter into Heaven with a Faith without works"

please do not muddy up the gospel and lead Homer astray. This is not what that means.
All believers(only believers)will be judged at the judgement seat of Christ for what they have done(not unbelievers). Their salvation is not in question here..only rewards that they will receive.
What your talking about above is the final judgement. The righteous and the unrighteous.
---JIM on 8/13/10


Maybe this is an example for the False Teachers blog.
James does not say "faith by works." He said he would show his faith by his works (v18). James would display his faith in his works. Works do not produce faith. Work can prove/display the faith that is there.
The subject in this passage is not faith by works. The subject is about displaying faith.
It is so easy to be/get confused when we leave one word or part of a sentence out.
Your salvation, if you have it, should produce works. That is what James is teaching.
---Elder on 8/13/10


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Good question Homer,I had hoped to continue this conversation.

Just what is Faith by Works?
Faith by works is the action taken by the believer, because they trust in the word of Jesus Christ.
Homer, we are saved by Grace through Faith, and that Faith must be in the word of Jesus Christ.

Notice the parable in (Matthew 25:31-46).
In this parable, who does Jesus say will enter into the Kingdom of God, Those who did something, or those who did nothing for the downtrodden?

If you believe what Jesus says in this parable, what shall your actions be?
You will Love your brother, not just in word, but in action.
The goats in the parable are those who believe that they shall enter into Heaven with a Faith without works.
---David on 8/13/10


It says in Romans 5:10, "while we were still enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son." If that's true, then we are saved neither by our faith nor by our works....
---ger.toshav on 8/12/10


Who said that faith and works were opposite, or even mutually exclusive?

This is a false dichotomy made by Martin Luther.

BTW, James's words about works (which simply echo those of Jesus in the Gospels) are why Luther called his letter the Epistle of Straw and didn't accept it as canonical. You see, it contradicted Luther's pet believe in justification by faith ALONE (which word he gratuitously inserted into his translation of Romans).
---Cluny on 8/12/10


Both Faith and Works are important but you have to put them in the proper order.

God chose all of the members that were ever going to be in his family prior to creation and rejected other people. He has the insight to know who truly loved him before you were ever born. Your faith is the recognition that God chose you to be in his divine family with Christ as your co-sibling. God adopted you, Christ dying on the cross paid for your salvation. Because of your adoption into the family of God You wish to follow Gods plan for you life and this involves works. It is very simple if you truly understand the order of events.
---Friendly_Blogger on 8/12/10


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It is probable that James was writing to Jewish believers who were still following the Torah. Thus works would have been very important to him, and to them. There was conflict between the respective followers of James and Paul, as illustrated in Paul's letter to the Galatians.
---ger.toshav on 8/12/10


Faith & works do work together.
If you need a job & you have faith you'l get one. Do you think the job will come knocking at your house door?, No, you use works to go out & seek.
---Lawrence on 8/12/10


Satan has really done a number on Christianity. Words have become meaningless. Satan has made the words we use simply become JARGON/"lingo" and nobody really thinks about what they ACTUALLY MEAN.

If your belief (FAITH) is so strong,....WHY ARE YOU WORKING?

JESUS did all the works necessary...

John 6:28
"What must we do, to be doing the works of God?".

All we must do is TRUST that what Jesus did is sufficient for our salvation and let His works be manifest in us (John 9:3). We are to simply REST in Jesus.
---more_excellent_way on 8/12/10


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