ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Signs Of The Rapture

Do these Scriptures refer to the rapture? First Corinthians 15:51-52. 52-"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Join Our Christian Penpals and Take The End Times Signs Bible Quiz
 ---mima on 8/18/10
     Helpful Blog Vote (4)

Post a New Blog



"....there should be no difference" (StrongAxe)

And there is no difference concerning the views of the Early Christians and Orthodoxy. The Apostolic Tradition has remain unchanged in Orthodoxy.

In manner of fact, all the Churches which have Apostolic lineages and even many Protestant agrees with what the Early Christians taught concerning the Second of Christ. Pre-Tribulational Rapture is a Evangelical fable.

"But if most of their traditions have become corrupted, why should we follow them?"

For the same reason why most here follow them when it comes to Christological doctrines and canonization of the NT. Why would one trust them selectively?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/22/10


\\1) They get updated and improved over time (like fine wine)
2) They degrade and get corrupted over time (like rusting iron)
3) They remain unchanged.

If the first is true, 21st century Christians are better than 5th century Christians.

If the second is true, 5th century Christians were better than we are. But if most of their traditions have become corrupted, why should we follow them?\\

Can you PROVE that 5th century traditions are corrupted, Strong Axe?

Fifth century traditions are less likely to be corrupted than 21st century traditions.
---Cluny on 8/23/10


isn't part of service to Christ to die for Him...physically if need be?

if you prepare for the "rapture", are you prepared for any tribulations. do you think the "Great Tribulation" will be preceded by no tribulation?

prepare for tribulations...and you will not be wrong.
---aka on 8/23/10


Ignatius:

Many people find it hard to differentiate between the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, and often get confused about both you and Cluny in that regard.

The protestant notion of tradition is the early Church had developed certain traditions, which were written down in scripture as witnesses to the future. Down through the ages, many Church traditions became more and more distorted, while the scriptures remained mostly unchanged (except for a few insignificant copyist errors).

So, to return to authentic early church traditions, it was necessary to go back to the scripture, and reject any "modern" Catholic church traditions disagreeing with scripture, or which had no scriptural basis whatsoever.
---StrongAxe on 8/23/10


Elder:

You are not getting it, as you are not getting many other things.

For 1,700 years or so (from the 1st century through the 18th century or so), those who studied the Scriptures more than you or I (notice, I have included myself here) did not teach your fable nor interpret the passages such as 1 Thes 4:16-18 as Rapturist do. That means that your doctrine is only 200-300 years old. Your doctrine doesn't even go back to the Protestant Reformation. That is different from saying only "some" didn't.

"...catching away doctrine...it is older"

You are right. The Second Coming of Christ (the Rapture, Parousia) is very Apostolic, but not a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/23/10




Elder: "It is all right there in the Bible." Agreed! The Bible is the only common ground for our discussions. So please provide a scripture that describes a general "rapture" before Jesus' 2nd coming, I'd like to see it. (Remember, it must have the words "caught up" or something similar in it.)
---jerry6593 on 8/23/10


Elder-

I am not even Catholic. You see? You know very little.

"...why do you use modern doctors?"

But we are not talking about medicines. We are talking about Apostolic Tradition. Are you saying that the Early Christians DID NOT receive "the Faith once delivered to the Saints" (Jude 3), but ONLY 21st century Evangelicals?

Are you claiming that YOUR interpretation and doctrine is right, but those who were closer to the Apostles were wrong?

Remember Elder, your interpretations or doctrine was NOT universally accepted nor taught for 1,700 years. Are you claiming that Satan prevailed against the Church?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/22/10


Are these the facts Elder is talking about?

---Ignatius on 8/22/10

They are the facts I have been talking about.

Your discussion with StrongAxe has been enlightening. His opinions mirror mine. I am not arrogant enough to believe I have more enlightenment than early believers did, neither do I believe they had all truth. Your quote about they were closer to the Apostles is like saying you know George Washington better then the next generation after us, even though he lived centuries before us.

By the way, I believe in a pre-Tribulation Return of Christ. The "parousia" you keep quoting like it is a sacred word. Jesus in His presence, returning to the Earth just prior to the seventh seal being broken
---Mark_Eaton on 8/22/10


Ignatius
You want us to believe that you know Scripture yet you represent the Catholic Church. If there is better knowledge 1700 years ago why do you use modern doctors?
Next you haven't traced the catching away doctrine back far enough. It is older that 1700 years. There are those over, 2000 years ago, who also teach salvation is not in Jesus Christ. Should we follow them also?
You claim you present facts but you can't even get the time periods correct. You don't even know who the church/bride or Friends of the Bride are. Your biblical time periods are so incorrect it is no wonder you cant see. The church is not in all time periods.
---Elder on 8/22/10


Elder-

Isn't that what you and other 21st century Evangelicals are doing? Since you have a corrupt Escgatology and wish to avoid the Tribulation, you seek out something that fits your desire/fear and then you call it doctrine (Pre-Tribulation Rapture ideology).

I am not only one who condemn your doctrine and interpretation of certain passages.

Why can't you admit that for 1,700 years or so, those who studied the Scriptures more than you or I (notice, I have included myself here) did not teach your fable? But YOU spiritually discern Scriptures?

Oh Elder, I and others here had presented you with the FACTS, but you ignore them. Too bad.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/22/10




Ignatius:

None of the Apostles were live in the fifth century. One can look at traditions in three ways:

1) They get updated and improved over time (like fine wine)
2) They degrade and get corrupted over time (like rusting iron)
3) They remain unchanged.

If the first is true, 21st century Christians are better than 5th century Christians.

If the second is true, 5th century Christians were better than we are. But if most of their traditions have become corrupted, why should we follow them?

If the third is true, there should be no difference between the validity of 5th century Christians and modern Christians, regardless of how far removed from the Apostles we or they are.
---StrongAxe on 8/22/10


Let's rationalize this:

1) Scriptures ONLY teach a Second Coming of Christ. The Christians of the first centuries understood what the "Parousia" was and awaited with Joy.
2) Scriptures such as 1 Thes 4:16-18 and Matthew 24:1-44 talks about the Second Coming of Christ (not Pre-Trib Rapture), and has always been interpreted that way for 1,700 years or so.
3) In order for the Rapturists ideology to be correct, one must believe, contrary to Apostolic Tradition, that Christ will come two more times (before the Tribulation and after).
4) Matthew 13:24-30,37-43 places the Rapture AFTER the Tribulation.
5) The Parousia is a climatic event in Scriptures.

Are these the facts Elder is talking about?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/22/10


Strongaxe-

But you forgot one crucial fact. The Christians from the 1st-5th century were CLOSER to the Apostles. 21st century Evangelicals are not. I will trust them, and besides, most here trust them when it comes to Christological doctrines and canonization of the NT, whether they realize it or not.

By the way, it is very arrogant and naive to believe that Christian Theologians, Scholars, Historians, Bishops, Presbyters, Deacons, Monastics, etc, of the first 1,700 years (Pre-Tribulation Rapture ideology is very modern) or so of Church History were all wrong and 21st century Evangelicals got it "right". None of the Ancient Apostolic Churches in the East believe in this fable.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/22/10


\\it can be equally naive to assume that 5th century Christians were necessarily more enlightened and superior to 21st century Christians.\\

Ahhhh---but they are closer in time and culture, to say nothing about language, than those of the 21st century, consequently are more likely to understand what the Apostles were talking about.
---Cluny on 8/22/10


The definition of "lie" is surely something like "deliberate untruth". and not "mistaken opinion"
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/22/10


" They are not part of the Church " (Elder)

So let me get this straight. During the Tribulation, many will be "saved" and "come to Christ", and be called Saints (God's Children), but will not be part of the Church, The Bride of Christ? Did you made a typo or were you just playing with us?

And who said that the OT Saints were not part of the Church? Give Book, Chapter, and Verse.

"you have your mind made...why confuse you with the facts."

Isn't your mind up? And what are the "facts"? You have yet to post any facts. I think the Christians BEFORE you got the facts! Oops, I forgot. They weren't "spiritually discerning" Scriptures! But YOU are?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/21/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Software


Ignatius and Cluny:

While it is naive and arrogant to assume that 21st century Christians are necessarily more enlightenened and superior to 5th century Christians, it can be equally naive to assume that 5th century Christians were necessarily more enlightened and superior to 21st century Christians. Back then, as well as now, we have all been seeing through a glass darkly, and our knowledge and interpretations were and are imperfect.
---StrongAxe on 8/22/10


There is one and only one general "rapture" of the saints mentioned in scripture. It is found in 1 Thes 4:13-18, and is inextricably tied to the visible, audible, glorious second coming of Jesus (v. 16). There is nothing "secret" about it. It involves both living and newly resurrected dead saints. The scripture (1Cor 15:51-52) you refer to also describes Jesus' 2nd coming.

If anyone can produce a scripture that describes a general "rapture" before Jesus' 2nd coming, I'd like to see it. (Remember, it must have the words "caught up" or something similar in it.)
---jerry6593 on 8/22/10


Ignatius, at least you didn't dispute the fact that you lied. Thanks. But still you are like so many. You seek out something that fits your desire and then you call it doctrine. anyone that shows the truth of a matter is condemned by people like you. We have all seen you do it in the past to others.
PS if you are so intelligent I can consider my lack as a blessing.
God bless ignoramus.
---Elder on 8/22/10


"You will notice that I don't use those little letters either to show how much I know." (Elder)

And how much you know is very little.

Like I have many times before, I will trust the interpretation of the Christians that lived in the first millennium of Church History above Mark Eaton or yours. They studied Scriptures more than you and I, yet they did not see a "Rapture" of the Church between Revelation 3:22 and 4:1 or interpret passages that speaks about the Second Coming of Christ as referring to a magical event that will occur before the Tribulation.

So for 1,700 years or so, Christians were not "spiritually discerning" Scriptures? Is that what you are trying to sell us?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/21/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Advertising


"Elder want us to believe that he is spiritually superior than them. How arrogant of him.
In IC.XC."
Ignatius
You completely lied when you made the above statement. I guess in your mind it would be arrogant to tell you that the word "Saint" doesn't always mean Church/Bride of Christ. There were Saints in the O.T. They are not part of the Church. There are people getting saved and becoming Saints throughout the Tribulation that are not the Church.
Of course you have your mind made up so why confuse you with the facts.
You will notice that I don't use those little letters either to show how much I know.
---Elder on 8/21/10


David the Mark of the Beast will not be issued until the Tribulation. We are in pre-tribulation time now. What do you, or anyone, think the sign of the beginning of the Tribulation is?
The Mark will not be issued before the Man of Sin "reigns" and the Holy Spirits removes His restraint and is taken out of the way.
It is all right there in the Bible. Speculation creates confusion.
---Elder on 8/21/10


"It is amazing how many answers and comments made on these blogs are more Internet based than Bible based. " (michael e)

I agree. Those on this blog who believe in the Evangelical fable of "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" are basing their belief not on the Bible, but man made doctrines and interpretations.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/21/10


\\Two intelligent Spanish Jesuits, Luis de Alcasar (1554-1613) and Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) each came out with two different interpretation of the end times, one futuristic view and other Praeterist view, in the past.\\

Whatever sins various popes might have, denying that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (the main sign of Antichrist) is not among them.

Jack Chick used to be a hard core dispensationalist, until he claimed to have discovered that the pre-trib rapture was cooked up by a Jesuit in the bowels of the vatican.
---Cluny on 8/21/10


Send a Free Funny Ecard


Cluny, sorry to disagree on pre trib and post trib. To counter the Protestant believes that the Pope was the antichrist two Jesuits asign by the Roman Catholic Church at the Council of Trent by papal leaders to counteract Protestainism and bring defectors back to the mother church. Behind close doors they decided ways to be done, not only through the Inquistion and torture but also through theology. What kind of theology? By reinterpreting the prophecies about the "man of sin" the Little horn, and the beast.
Two intelligent Spanish Jesuits, Luis de Alcasar (1554-1613) and Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) each came out with two different interpretation of the end times, one futuristic view and other Praeterist view, in the past.
---MarkV. on 8/21/10


It is amazing how many answers and comments made on these blogs are more Internet based than Bible based.
Remember the commandment of 2 Tim 2:15, STUDY, I believe most would agree it means study the word, and not the Internet.
---michael_e on 8/21/10


"I'd rather trust 5th century Christians"(Cluny)

My point exactly. One can see how how entrenched, convenient, and arrogant Protestant theology is. When the Early Christians disagree with Protestantism, Protestants conclude that it must be the Early Christians who are wrong.

Mark Eaton, Elder, and others, would like us to believe that they and other 21st century Evangelicals are more "spiritually discerning" that the Early Christians. That they know Scriptures more than them, even though many of them were theologians and defended the Church against Christological heresies.

Elder want us to believe that he is spiritually superior than them. How arrogant of him.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/21/10


The Pre-Trib fable is one of the most dangerous teaching in the church today.

Why?
Because if a believer thinks they will be taken before the tribulation, what will keep them from receiving the Mark of the Beast?

If they do not recognize they are in the tribulation, they also will not recognize the Mark of the Beast.


---David on 8/21/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Eating Disorders


//Yet, we don't see the Church/Bride (which is the body of NT believers) after Ch 3:22 until ch 21:9.//

In rapture theory, there is a lot of human reasoning based on a few scattered verses. When I play hide-n-seek with my kids and hide in the closet, it does not mean that I am not there until I am found.
---aka on 8/21/10


Pre-trib rapture wasn't even heard of until 1830 or so, when given in supposed revelation by Margaret MacDonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland, a woman also into seances and table tipping.

It was popularized by John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren (who have since repudiated it) and his disciple C. I. Schofield (whose family life resembles that of Benny Hinn).

You will find no trace of it in any old Christian writings.

I'd rather trust 5th century Christians than 19-20th century Christians, myself.
---Cluny on 8/20/10


"we don't see the Church/Bride (which is the body of NT believers) after Ch 3:22 until ch 21:9. " (Elder)

Yes, we do:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. " (Revelation 13:7)

"A "discerning believer" will see the Rapture between 3:22 and 4:1. Too bad you can't or won't."

The Early Christians did not, and I doubt that you are more discerning than them.

It is very strange that such a important doctrine was missed for 1,700 years or so by those who study Scriptures more extensively than you. Perhaps they read a different set of Scriptures?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/20/10


Elder, the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
---Cluny on 8/20/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Travel Packages


"That's because spiritual things are spiritually discerned, Elder. You are not spiritually discerning them."
Cluny
That is easy for you to say to try to make your point. Yet, you haven't outlined the events in the Revelation correctly.
The Tribulation ends in Rev 20. Show us where the rapture occurs after that. You can't because it doesn't.
Yet, we don't see the Church/Bride (which is the body of NT believers) after Ch 3:22 until ch 21:9.
A "discerning believer" will see the Rapture between 3:22 and 4:1. Too bad you can't or won't.
We see a new city coming down in ch 21:2. That is not a rapture. The city is coming down not going up.
---Elder on 8/20/10


Cluny:

Steveng did not use this comment to avoid the debate, but said "This is a frivolous debate. But if you must, let's reason this out". Also, he AGREES with you that there's no pre-tribulation rapture.

The Bible itself mentions frivolous debate on several occasions:

1 Timothy 1:4 (also Titus 3:9)
"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."

Isaiah 58:4 (also Romans 1:29, 2 Corinthians 12:20)
"Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high."
---StrongAxe on 8/19/10


very good, steveng.

ironically, i feel more peace knowing what He promises and what I have to endure through Him than knowing what He promises and being taken away from the privilege of suffering for Him at the last second.
---aka on 8/20/10


"not the inspired Word of God." (Mark Eaton)

No one said they were. However, you have 27 books in your NT and believe in four Gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke, and John) BECAUSE of the ECF's who canonized the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, I take the interpretation of those who came after the Apostles, in Apostolic Succession, over yours any day!

"My faith is built upon the Words of Christ and the inspired writings of His Apostles."

Nay, your Faith is built on how you interpret Christ words and the writings of His Apostles. You interpret Scriptures the way you see fit.

Again, why should I follow YOUR man made doctrines and interpretation?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/20/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Credit Repair


"The judgments in the Revelation are from the very hand of God."(Mark Eaton)

And this is a good enough excuse to create a whole new doctrine (Pre-Trib Rapture) that none of the Early Christians, including the Holy Apostles, believed? That was not part of Apostolic Tradition?

The only doctrine the Early Christians receive through Apostolic Tradition was the Second Coming of Christ and they interpret passages such as 1 Thes 4:16-17 as referring to that event, not some magical event that will occur before the Tribulation.

Now, over 2,000 years later, you want to tell us they were all wrong and we should interpret the passages the way YOU do because you have to defend your precious Evangelical fable?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/20/10


Cluny's position can be proven quite easily.

Look at the Thousand year Reign.
Who will be in Thousand year Reign?
Those who are killed.(Revelation 20:4)

How are they killed?
They are beheaded.

Why were those folks beheaded?
Because They did not receive the mark of the beast.

When is the mark of the beast received?
During the tribulation.(Revelation 13:15)

Now since the Thousand year Reign is the "First Ressurection", the return of our Lord Jesus has to be after the Thousand Year reign.
---David on 8/20/10


"Do these Scriptures refer to the rapture?"
Yes, rapture in the sense of the ecstatic joy the redeemed will experience at our Lord's return.
---joseph on 8/20/10


\\The view of a Rapture/catching away after the tribulation judgement doesn't make sence.\\

That's because spiritual things are spiritually discerned, Elder. You are not spiritually discerning them.

**This is a frivolous debate.**

Subjecting an idea that one cannot actually refute to mockery is a standard tactic of those who cannot refute it.
---Cluny on 8/19/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Products


This is a frivolous debate. But if you must, let's reason this out.

First, There is only One Judgement Day, not two. If people are raptured at the beginning, judgement has been pronounced, because the Christians were taken and the evil people left on Earth.

Second, There are only two resurrections, not three. If there was a pre-trib rapture, there would be three resurrections - one at the beginning of the tribulation period, one at the end of the tribulation (to bring up the Christians and converted ones), and one at the end of the thousand year period. It's written that blessed are those who rise during the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 8/19/10


Third, Godly men and women in Scripture were never raptured, but were protected by God while still on earth. Noah and his family, David and his friends, the Israelites during the plagues, etc. The Christians during the tribulation period will be protected the same way by the mark of God. All humanity is in the same boat and will experience the same thing, but Christians are protected.

Fourth, Why have a tribulation if the Christians were taken up and the evil left on earth? Many Christians believe that they would rise before the tribulation to escape Gods wrath. But why would the dead be taken? Can the dead feel the wrath of God on Earth if theyre dead?
---Steveng on 8/19/10


\\Do you also believe that a physical Millenial Reign of Christ is a myth?\\

No. A heresy. It was rejected by the Second Ecumenical Council (which defined the Deity of the Holy Spirit). That's why the Nicene Creed contains the words, "Whose Kingdom shall have no end."

\\The writings of early church fathers should be considered the same as the Jewish Midrash. Interesting but not the inspired Word of God.

My faith is built upon the Words of Christ and the inspired writings of His Apostles.\\

Just how would you know what the Words of Christ and his apostles are without these fathers whom you reject out of hand?

Jesus Himself said His Kingdom was NOT of this world--which is all a millennial kingdom is.
---Cluny on 8/19/10


Hi y'all :) How can anyone ignore the verses in 2nd Thessalonians that talk about the anti-Christ coming first, along with the apostacy of the church? It's in a large part of chapter 2 of that book, I don't see how anyone can get around those verses, just wondering and God bless :)
---Mary on 8/19/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Divorce


"The view of a Rapture/catching away after the tribulation judgement doesn't make sence. That is because the bible doesn't teach it that way." (Elder)

It would not make sense if only if the Rapture/Catching away IS a separate occurrence than the Second Coming of Christ. Yet if one had any knowledge of Scriptures and Church History, one would know that Early Christians only knew and excepted the Second Coming of Christ, not two separate future advents of Christ.

The Early Christians DID NOT interpret this passage as referring to a coming of Christ prior to the Tribulation, but ONLY to Second Coming of Christ. Why don't you? Too caught up in modern day Evangelical children books?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/19/10


Besides all the Scriptures posted by Pre-Trib Rapture DOESN'T teach that doctrine and the Early Christians understood those to refer to the Second Coming of Christ not a magical event that will occur before.
---Ignatius on 8/19/10

It is easy to see you believe in an Orthodox faith. Do you agree with their teachings that the Church has replaced the nation of Israel in many OT prophesies? Do you also believe that a physical Millenial Reign of Christ is a myth?

The writings of early church fathers should be considered the same as the Jewish Midrash. Interesting but not the inspired Word of God.

My faith is built upon the Words of Christ and the inspired writings of His Apostles.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/19/10


No Pre-Trib Rapture here. That is YOUR ideology.
---Ignatius on 8/19/10

No, your ideology says there is NO Millenial Reign, that is, if you are of Orthodox faith. Amillenialism.

You deny the very words of Christ to keep to that ideology. Why, does it not fit your theology?

Jesus told his Apostles Himself that they would reign with Him.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/19/10


What will be different, except a more intense persecution? Do YOU really think God will make a exception because you and others are too afraid to endure trials and tribulations, intense as they may be?
---Ignatius on 8/19/10

Have you even read the Revelation?

Persecution comes from the hands of other people and our enemy, the devil.

The judgments in the Revelation are from the very hand of God. This is not persecution, this is judgment, and from God.

Why would Almighty God include His beloved, whom His Son died to purchase, in His own judgment?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/19/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Marriage


"1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You don't actually think it means BEFORE the Tribuation, do you? Please say where it says that."
Cluny
Hey, how about you telling us where it doesn't say that!
The view of a Rapture/catching away after the tribulation judgement doesn't make sence. That is because the bible doesn't teach it that way.
It would sort of be like taking Lot out of Sodom after the fire fell or Noah building the Ark after the flood.
---Elder on 8/19/10


\\Does pre-tribulation sound better to you now?
---mima on 8/19/10\\

The English hymnist Isaac Watts wrote "Am I a Soldier of the Cross?" which contains these lines:

Shall I be carried to the clouds on flow'ry beds of ease,
While others fought to win the prize and sailed through
bloody seas?

The Rapturist replies, "You'd better believe it!"

Right, mima?
---Cluny on 8/19/10


Mark Eaton-

What will be different, except a more intense persecution? Do YOU really think God will make a exception because you and others are too afraid to endure trials and tribulations, intense as they may be?

That is why the Pre-Trib Rapture theory (which is a very modern doctrine) is so comforting to many. The idea that we should suffer for Christ' sake is too much to comprehend.

Besides all the Scriptures posted by Pre-Trib Rapture DOESN'T teach that doctrine and the Early Christians understood those to refer to the Second Coming of Christ not a magical event that will occur before.

Why should I believe YOUR modern interpretation and doctrine?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/19/10


These events refer to what will happen on the same day as the rapture.

Other references:
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
---francis on 8/19/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Consolidation


"The Apostle Paul believed he would be alive when the Rapture came and included himself in the 'we who are left". Why?" (Mark eaton)

Sure, Saint Paul and the Early Christians really believe they were living in the End Times. Many thought that Nero was the Anti-Christ.

"This confirms my belief that the Rapture cannot be at the end, very few believers are left ALIVE. "

And what is your point? The Early Christians understood the passages as referring to the Second Coming of Christ, not a Pre-Trib Rapture.

"God would 'keep us from the wrath to come'."

No Pre-Trib Rapture here. That is YOUR ideology.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/19/10


Jesus prayed at the Mystical Supper, "Father, I pray You do not take them out of the world, but keep them safe from the evil one."

And in Matthew 13, in the parable of the wheat and tares, the wheat is NOT gathered 7 days (or 1007 days, if you'd rather) before the harvest.
---Cluny on 8/18/10

I have heard you make these statements before. You are mistaken about both of them.

On your first point, let me tell you who Jesus is praying for at the time he says this. His Apostles. He does not mention the followers of the Apostles (the church) until later in the prayer.

In Matt 13, is about the Kingdom of God, not the end times. The reference to the "harvest" is a reference to the judgment.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/19/10


\\One of the reasons why the rapture cannot be post-tribulation or mid-tribulation is this fact. \\

OTOH, if you read the words of Jesus, it's clear that THESE facts mean the Rapture is post-trib.

You believe what you want to believe, mima.

I'll believe our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ and His holy Word.
---Cluny on 8/19/10


mima, you are using human reasoning and not biblical reasoning. i know that the blood sacrifice of Jesus replaced the Law with grace. but, the unbelievers still want blood...the law. it does not say in scripture that anyone has to take the mark. it says mark will be forced upon us.

guess what happens when one refuses the mark. the law kicks in, blood is shed, and that person is sacrificed. To them we die...to Christ we live.

were any of the martyrs that suffered death "raptured" before they died? rapture is not a logical progression from the scriptures.
---aka on 8/19/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Refinancing


One of the reasons why the rapture cannot be post-tribulation or mid-tribulation is this fact. Those who go through the tribulation will be forced to take the mark of the beast. And we can be certain those who take the mark of the beast are doomed to hell! Therefore we can be certain that chirst's church cannot take the mark of the beast and therefore cannot possibly go through the tribulation. Does pre-tribulation sound better to you now?
---mima on 8/19/10


Where it says in Revelation that saints are waiting impatiently for their deaths to be avenged is troublesome. It implies that it's okay for Christians to be impatient and to crave vengeance. That doesn't sound like what Jesus taught...
---ger.toshav on 8/18/10


In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Theres a reason why a trumpet is mentioned. There are trumpets in Revelation.

There are only a handful of places in the NT that trumpet is even mentioned. Im not sold on PREtrib rapture. I believe its MIDtrib after the partial judgements are over, men still havent repented and all heck is about to break lose down here. We are taken and the 144k are sealed. Suggesting bad stuff is about to happen.
---JackB on 8/18/10


\\seek the indwelling of the Holy Spirit this way you will understand Gods ways and not your own interepation of the Holy Bible.\\

I do, and that's why I reject pre-trib pre-mill dispensationalism.

If you took your own advice, you would likewise reject it, too.

||1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.||

You don't actually think it means BEFORE the Tribuation, do you? Please say where it says that.

The passage is clearly talking about AFTER the Tribulation, not before, especially when you compare it with Matthew 25:31 ff.
---Cluny on 8/19/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Franchises


The same way Christians since the first century made it through intense persecution for the sake of Jesus Christ.....through God's Grace and Mercy.
---Ignatius on 8/18/10

So in your opinion, the first century persecution is equal to the Great Tribulation?

I am sorry I cannot agree with that thinking. According to Jesus, this will be the WORST time this planet has ever known. Such misery we cannot comprehend. Can you imagine darkness so vast that people will long for death? Can you imagine being stung by "locusts" for 5 months so badly that you want to die? Can you imagine 1/3 of the earth's population being killed by angels?

You nay-sayers do not comprehend what the Great Tribulation is all about.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/19/10


It's easy:
---StrongAxe on 8/18/10

This confirms my belief that the Rapture cannot be at the end, very few believers are left ALIVE.

The Apostle Paul believed he would be alive when the Rapture came and included himself in the 'we who are left". Why?

Accordng to the Revelation, God will come very close to ending all life on planet Earth during the Tribulation.

Perhaps Paul did not know about the Tribulation. If he did not, then Paul's statements seem in error. I believe Paul did know and wrote in his own way that God would "keep us from the wrath to come".
---Mark_Eaton on 8/19/10


Mark_Eaton:

It's easy: if you refuse to take the Mark of the Beast, you'll either starve to death, or be beheaded - then you'll join saints before who are waiting impatiently for their deaths to be avenged.

Whether or not the pre-trib rapture theory is true, over-reliance on it can have certain bad side-effects. In particular, during times of extreme persecution, many believers say "This worse than ANY persecution that has gone on before. This HAS to be the tribulation!" - and when it isn't, and they have to go through it, they can lose their faith. On the other hand, those who expect to have to endure it will endure normal tribulations equally well without having to worry about whether "this is the Big One".
---StrongAxe on 8/18/10


Yes, but there is no such thing as the popular science fiction "Left Behind" series. In other words, Holy Scriptures does not teach Pre-Tribulation Rapture ideology

The Early Christians understood that passage as referring to the Second Coming of Christ. The notions that are found in the Left Behind science fiction books, Tim LaHaye (and other modern Evangelicals) interpretation on Revelation is completely not part of Apostolic Tradition, but are man-made doctrines and interpretations.

If you want to know the Truth in Holy Scriptures and a complete refutation on this man-made doctrine, I suggest you read A Rumor of War: Christ' Millennial Reign and the Rapture of the Church by Dennis Eugune Engleman.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/18/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Lead Generation


Cluny
very good!
what is it said!
having eye!

but blessed!
---TheSeg on 8/18/10


Why are end-time christian so vain to think that they will escape the end-time tribulation when all christians throughout all of earth's history went through their own tribulations?

The love of the people in the world have waxed cold - that's including christians. The tribulation is to separate the christians from the people who say "Lord, Lord" and "Lord, haven't we done..." Most of you on these blogs will give up your faith when face-to-face with real tribulation. So put on the whole armor of God by meditating on the words of Christ only, not on man's philosophies and their wrong and shallow answers built on man's thoughts and ideas. Colossians 2:8-10
---Steveng on 8/18/10


\\I am always amazed by this statement.

Just how do you expect to make it through the Tribulation? \\

If I die as a martyr for Christ during the Tribulation, is that such a horrible thing?

Jesus prayed at the Mystical Supper, "Father, I pray You do not take them out of the world, but keep them safe from the evil one."

The Rapturist prays, "You don't listen to Jesus! You take us out of this world!"

And in Matthew 13, in the parable of the wheat and tares, the wheat is NOT gathered 7 days (or 1007 days, if you'd rather) before the harvest.

In fact, what gets taken away first?
---Cluny on 8/18/10


"I am always amazed by this statement." (mark eaton)

I am even more amazed how many disregard Apostolic Tradition and believe the science fiction of the Left behind series.

"Just how do you expect to make it through the Tribulation?"

The same way Christians since the first century made it through intense persecution for the sake of Jesus Christ.....through God's Grace and Mercy.

What? Do YOU really think God will make a exception just because some are too sacred to endure till the end?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/18/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Mortgages


this is for Friendly Blogger and Cluny.

seek the indwelling of the Holy Spirit this way you will understand Gods ways and not your own interepation of the Holy Bible.Without his power you will never understand the word.Ask God for wisdom as well.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

now does this look like we are staying here in the New Jerusalem?And the Church will be taken out first before the Tribulation just like he took his children out of Egypt.
---Lea on 8/18/10


1 THESSALONIANS 4:16 FOR the LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,and with the trump of GOD, and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first,
1 THESSSALONIANS 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the cloulds, to meet the LORD in the air, and so shall we ever be with the LORD.( Christians came up with the word rapture from the word CAUGHT UP)
---RICHARD on 8/18/10


"But remember that the Rapture FOLLOWS the Tribulation. It does not precede it.
The Rapture, Resurrection, and Last Judgement are nearly simultaneous events."
---Cluny on 8/18/10
Just for clairty again.... Is this the same Cluny who has said on other blogs that there is no Rapture?
Since the end of the Great Trtibluation is marked by Jesus' victory over Satan's final revolt what are saints raptured to in this view?
---Elder on 8/18/10


But remember that the Rapture FOLLOWS the Tribulation. It does not precede it.
---Cluny on 8/18/10

I am always amazed by this statement.

Just how do you expect to make it through the Tribulation?

If you take the Mark of the Beast you will not be in the Rapture. If you do not take the Mark of the Beast, you will be killed and will not be in the Rapture. If you are killed by one of the Bowl judgments you will not be in the Rapture. Do I need to continue?

By my reckoning, there are will be more people killed than there will be left alive. Seems funny to have a Rapture when only one or two people show up.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/18/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Personal Loans


\\And that is not necessarily where God hangs outs.\\

Can you tell me where God is NOT?
---Cluny on 8/18/10


to those who are convinced of a pre-trib rapture...yes.

to those who are not...no.
---aka on 8/18/10


The problem with RAPTURE is a loaded term strictly associated with Heresy and nothing else and should never ever be associated with any legitimate Christian concept. Chuny is right in there is a lot going on very short sequence and some things concurrently the resurrection of the dead in new reservation bodies, Last Judgment, creation of a new Earth and a New Jerusalem and guess what you don't go anywhere because that New Jerusalem is where you are going to spend eternity right here on the New Earth. And that is not necessarily where God hangs outs. No one lied to you just did not know how to understand the scripture correctly.
---Friendly_Blogger on 8/18/10


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.