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The Hour Of Temptation

Revelation 3:10," Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." What event is this verse referring to and does it happen pre-tribulation or post-tribulation?

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 ---mima on 8/19/10
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irrefutable proof? ok,so if Jesus came back before the tribulation would He stand back and let "the Tribulation" take place? sometimes commonsense screams out in these blogs for a chance to be heard,its sad!
---richard on 11/18/10


Angels preach the gospel after the rapture,there is also the two witnesses and the elect of Israel ( maybe also a few left behind,as yet unsaved "christians" too? ).The N.T tells us that Jesus preached through Noah before the flood.So just on that limited basis the end comes at the end,simple when there is no axe to grind ( with which hairs are no doubt being split by many,by that one manipulation of a verse ).
---richard on 11/18/10


"Please let me see your irrefutable proof that the Return of Christ is at the end of the Tribulation. " (Mark Eaton)

I gave you the Scriptures. Did you not read them?

"Sola Scriptura, please."

Why are you keep insisting on man made traditions?

"the Parable of the Tares is about unbelievers and believers growing up next to each other in the church, not the end times."

Not according to Jesus (Matthew 13:36-40). Who should I believe? You or my Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/28/10


"What are you talking about?" (michael)

You claimed that Saint Epharaem the Syrian (who lived in 4th century) taught a Pre-Tribulational Rapture, and posted a quote proving it. However, it was not Saint Epharem who wrote that, but Psuedo Epharaem, and it was written in the 7th century (per most Scholars). It doesn't teach a Pre-Tribulational Rapture if his other writings are taken into consideration. So much for your googing.......

NOW, do you understand?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/28/10


Since Ive last posted, Ive heard an incredible message on Jewish wedding customs and how they relate to the wedding of the church to Christ. Since the Jews got their wedding customs from the Lord, its very likely that the Lord will follow his own ideas.

The father stating his price for his daughter. The son paying that price for his bride. The son leaving to prepare a place for his bride at HIS fathers house. How long he is typically gone in doing so before he returns to call his bride to him. Very interesting stuff indeed!

Itll give you goosebumps! :D

---JackB on 8/27/10




//I simply defended a Saint' reputation from being slandered either intentionally or unintentionally by Michael e.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/27/10 //

What are you talking about?
---michael_e on 8/27/10


"Go to the place recomended above but search out the other information that is there also." (Elder)

I did. I find the arguments against Pseudo Epharem's suppose Pre-Tribulational belief compelling. In either case, one must admit that the orthodox doctrine concerning the Second Coming of Christ in the Early Church was not Pre-tribulation and Scriptures doesn't support.

" Remember, don't let the net provide your spiritual training either"

I never do. I wasn't the one who first recommended googing anything. I simply defended a Saint' reputation from being slandered either intentionally or unintentionally by Michael e.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/27/10


\\After the rapture, which takes place before or midway of the seven year tribulation period All public witnessing will be stopped.\\

Wrong in both sentences.

The Rapture comes at the END of the Tribulation.

And the Gospel will be preached to all nations, THEN the end will come. That's what Jesus said. Does He count?
---Cluny on 8/27/10


"Google "Rapture Ready Origins of Pre-Trib Rapture, Pseudo Epharem"."
Ignatius on 8/26/10
When some get the information that makes their point seem valid they stop searching. Go to the place recomended above but search out the other information that is there also. Remember, don't let the net provide your spiritual training either
---Elder on 8/27/10


Just because a verse says AFTER it may not mean what you want it to mean.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/10

HMMMMM???....

Lets see...Maybe it means what it saids!
---JOhn on 8/27/10




I did. It ACTUALLLY proves that the Second Coming of Christ occurs at the end of the tribulation. That is what Jesus said (Matthew 24 & the Parable of Tares).
---Ignatius on 8/26/10

Show me your proof. I have shown you some of mine.

Please let me see your irrefutable proof that the Return of Christ is at the end of the Tribulation. Sola Scriptura, please.

And BTW, the Parable of the Tares is about unbelievers and believers growing up next to each other in the church, not the end times. Jesus told this parable after He told the Parable of the Sower. It is about the people, not the times.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/10


After the rapture, which takes place before or midway of the seven year tribulation period All public witnessing will be stopped. There will be many come to Christ after the rapture but they will come because of witnessing that took place before the rapture took place. When the new believers attempt to witness or refuse to deny Christ their heads will be chopped off.
There is great urgency to witnessing. Should you want or desire to test yourself, as concerns your lifting up God to others you have but to look at your witnessing. Are you witnessing? Do you know how to go about witnessing? You can check yourself.
---mima on 8/27/10


//EXPLAIN THE GREAT COMMISSION.
Do we witness until the coming of Christ or...
Do we witness until 7 years before the coming of Christ?//

(the so called great commission)
Matt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples..
Mk 16:Afterward he appeared unto the eleven

Which one of these 11 Disciples of the Nation of Israel, that never left Israel,(Acts 8:1) are you?

Our "Great commission" 2 Cor 5:17-19 Reconciliation
---michael_e on 8/27/10


Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,.... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, ....
---John on 8/26/10

Sorry, but you neglected to read this verse which is the tribulation connection to your verse...

Matt 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name"

These are the "birthpains".

Just because a verse says AFTER it may not mean what you want it to mean.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/10


//It was started by a witch called Margaret McDonald ... popular since it creates mega churche$$$ filled with Carnal Bourgeois Pseudo Christians//
Can you prove this Biblically?
---michael_e on 8/26/10



That is an Irrelevant and convoluted argument.

The argument is whether or not Pri Trib is Biblically true.

I just showed you how it is a Heresy with several direct words of G-d

Jesus Christ said directly several times in JOHN "ON THE LAST DAY".

Show us where Jesus is wrong please?

EXPLAIN THE GREAT COMMISSION.
Do we witness until the coming of Christ or...
Do we witness until 7 years before the coming of Christ?

NOW..."Can you prove this Biblically?"
---JOhn on 8/26/10


"Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." (michael e)

WRONG!

It was not written by Saint Epharaem the Syrian, but Pusedo Epharaem, and it was written much later, many scholars date in to the 7th century.

The fact that you have just lied or was misinformed proves how desperate Rupturists are.

Have you read ANY of the Saint's REAL writings?

Google "Rapture Ready Origins of Pre-Trib Rapture, Pseudo Epharem".

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/26/10


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\\Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
---michael_e on 8/26/\\

St. Ephraem the Syrian is venerated throughout all Eastern Christian Churches, regardless of Christological confession, as the "Harp of the Holy Spirit" for his beautiful theologically rich hymn and prayers.

However, on this point he taught imprecisely, and NO Eastern Church has received that teaching.
---Cluny on 8/26/10


Michale e

You too can google "Pseudo-Ephrem". There has been several articles disproving the assertion that he, whoever he was, held a Pre-Tribulational mindset.

"Read them for yourself" (Mark Eaton)

I did. It ACTUALLLY proves that the Second Coming of Christ occurs at the end of the tribulation. That is what Jesus said (Matthew 24 & the Parable of Tares).

"Or more "traditions"."

Sola Scriptura is your tradition. Too bad you can't see that or don't want to.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/26/10


//Sorry my Bible doesn't have "The Gospel of Epharem" So some guy in 373 is your final authority?WOW!
My point was you can google what you want to believe, like Epharem.
Does your bible have Margaret McDonald?

//I listed what Jesus Christ Himself said. Are you going to ignore him???MATT 24:29,30 //
Absolutely not, are you going by the bible or google?

//It was started by a witch called Margaret McDonald (Google it). A seance attended by John Darby passed to Scoffield who brought to America in his study bible, Very popular today since it creates mega churche$$$ filled with Carnal Bourgeois Pseudo Christians//
Can you prove this Biblically?
---michael_e on 8/26/10


Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
---michael_e on 8/26/

Sorry my Bible doesn't have "The Gospel of Epharem" So some guy in 373 is your final authority?WOW!

I listed what Jesus Christ Himself said. Are you going to ignore him???MATT 24:29,30

Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,.... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, ....
---John on 8/26/10


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\\It was started by a witch called Margaret McDonald (Google it). A seance attended by John Darby passed to Scoffield\\

I wouldn't go so far as to call her a witch......
---Cluny on 8/26/10


For those of you who believe that Revelation 3:10 refers to a pretrib rapture - "I will also keep thee" , Then see the use of the same word in John 17:15. Look at the context and the meaning. Revelation 3:10 does not support a pretrib view.
---mike on 8/26/10


You can google anything you want to believe.

One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
---michael_e on 8/26/10


The events described by Jesus Christ (Matt 24) and Saint Paul refers to the Second Coming of Christ that will occur at the end of the Tribulation.
---Ignatius on 8/25/10

Conjecture on your part. Or more "traditions".

Joel 2, Isaiah 13, Zech 14, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Rev 6 all describe signs in the heavens or sky, the sun does not shine, the moon is as blood, the stars fall from the sky, and the whole earth sees Jesus in the clouds.

Read them for yourself, don't take someone's word for it. Then you will see the harmony of the Scriptures and see that the Revelation Seals are BEFORE the Tribulation starts.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/26/10


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PRETRIB IS A HERESY!

It was started by a witch called Margaret McDonald (Google it). A seance attended by John Darby passed to Scoffield who brought to America in his study bible, Very popular today since it creates mega churche$$$ filled with Carnal Bourgeois Pseudo Christians.

It's a Great $ell to these Fakes/Apostates who do not want to suffer, as other believers did in scripture.(Apostles, Prophets, Jesus)

Tribulation is for believers, Wrath is for the wicked.

The word derives from Tribul. A sled used to separate the wheat from the chaff.(testing faith)

HERE IS WHAT JESUS SAID...
MATT 24:29-31
JOHN 6:39-54/11:24/12:48/1715

PAUL...
2THESS 2:1-5

OT...
DAN 12:1-3

CASE CLOSED!!!
---JOHN on 8/25/10


"I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Return of Christ which satifies all of the Rapture and Second Coming scenarios. Read Joel 2, Matt 24, and Rev 6, the sixth seal." (Mark Eaton)

The events described by Jesus Christ (Matt 24) and Saint Paul refers to the Second Coming of Christ that will occur at the end of the Tribulation.

Pre-Tribulation Rapture ideology is not the same as the Second Coming of Christ.

"Orthodox "Holy" tradition says that John the Baptist preceeded Christ into Hades to preach salvation to the captives. I find no reference to this in the Scriptures."

Sola Scriptura is your doctrine, not Scriptures. We DON'T need to play by your rules!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/25/10


Except for what Christ Himself said, of course.
---Cluny on 8/25/10

Pray tell, what you are referring to?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/25/10


//But what would be the purpose of a post-tribulation rapture? //

I do not know what it would mean to others, but I separate it from the 2nd coming of the Lord. Therefore, i don't believe in a pre, mid, or post trib "rapture", but i do believe that we will be raptured in the 2nd Coming.

what would be the purpose of pulling people who say they believe in Jesus from the winnowing fork before Jesus is done separating the wheat from the chaff?

//"mima, do you feel conident enough to take a sentence that he spoke to one church to apply to every church?" //

why do you believe He is addressing all saints when he spoke this to one church?
---aka on 8/25/10


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\\To answer you, I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Return of Christ which satifies all of the Rapture and Second Coming scenarios. \\

Except for what Christ Himself said, of course.
---Cluny on 8/25/10


That is why I am Orthodox.
---Ignatius on 8/24/10

To answer you, I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Return of Christ which satifies all of the Rapture and Second Coming scenarios. Read Joel 2, Matt 24, and Rev 6, the sixth seal. The event is the same.

Orthodox "Holy" tradition says that John the Baptist preceeded Christ into Hades to preach salvation to the captives. I find no reference to this in the Scriptures.

Is this the kind of "traditions" you place so high? How high do you hold these sacred traditions? Are they on even footing with the Scriptures?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/25/10


Mark Eaton,

In another blog you told me "By the way, I believe in a pre-Tribulation Return of Christ." The whole point of our discussion is your belief in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture ideology, which is man-made.

So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

"Please make sure the traditions you are following are traditions started by Christ"

That is why I am Orthodox.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/24/10


You can believe what you want.
---Ignatius on 8/23/10

I have told you what I believe.

Why do you continue to talk to me about the Rapture when I do not believe in a separate event either?

My disagreement with you is not about the Rapture, its about your "traditions".

Please make sure the traditions you are following are traditions started by Christ. Otherwise, you are following the commandments and teaching of men.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/24/10


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"Yet God DOES rescue the godly from trials and tribulation. Look at Lot. His story is relevant to the Revelation tribulation. God was going to destroy the cities and yet God waited until Lot was RESCUED before He destroyed them. " (Mark Eaton)

And yet God did not "ruptured" Lot and His Family, but they REMAIN on Earth.

The Lord is able to preserve those He loves by means of His presence. This alone is enough to clam storms and feed multitude.

No need to invent a man-made doctrine. Sorry, I will follow Apostolic Tradition, which only teach a Second Coming of Christ, not the belief that He will come again two more times. You can believe what you want.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/23/10


"mima, do you feel conident enough to take a sentence that he spoke to one church to apply to every church?"
---aka on 8/23/10

Really I do not know how to answer this question my inclination is to say yes.

---mima on 8/23/10


---aka I have a question for you. Many people believe in a post- Tribulation rapture.
But what would be the purpose of a post-tribulation rapture? If the church(an impossibility in mind) would be required to go through the tribulation before it is rapture out what would it escape from?
---mima on 8/23/10


mima, do you feel conident enough to take a sentence that he spoke to one church to apply to every church?
---aka on 8/23/10


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And your point is?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/19/10

You have pounded the "Pre-Trib Rapture fantasy" over and over and over, yet God DOES rescue the godly from trials and tribulation. Look at Lot. His story is relevant to the Revelation tribulation. God was going to destroy the cities and yet God waited until Lot was RESCUED before He destroyed them.

And what is the purpose of the Revelation tribulation?

The blog question gives it. "to try them that dwell upon the earth".

As a believer, you do not dwell on the earth, your citizenship is in heaven with God.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/23/10


"The tribulation 'is' "the hour of temptation".
---joseph on 8/20/10

I believe this statement is correct.

Now consider Revelation 3:10,
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

One can easily understand why I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.
---mima on 8/23/10


Aka, okay, thanks.
---ger.toshav on 8/21/10


Aka, there is currently a Philadelphia Church of God. Is that what you're referring to?
---ger.toshav on 8/19/10

no, i am referring to the church in the third chapter of Revelation. Rapture theorists use this verse as if Jesus was talking to every saint in every church.
---aka on 8/21/10


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"What event is this verse referring to?"
The seductive deception of the spurious messiah.
"does it happen pre-tribulation or post-tribulation?"
The tribulation 'is' "the hour of temptation".
---joseph on 8/20/10


"Interesting choice of words "rescue" don't you think? " (Mark Eaton)

And your point is?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/19/10


The Lord is able to preserve those He loves by means of His presence. This alone is enough to clam storms and feed multitudes.
---Ignatius on 8/19/10

I believe the verse you are looking for is:

2 Peter 2:9 "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment"

Interesting choice of words "rescue" don't you think?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/19/10


Did you know that all seven churches of Asia Minor were active, living Orthodox Churches until 1922?

At that time, a population exchange arranged (i.e., forced) by the League of Nations ordered all the Orthodox Christians (except for Constantinople) out of Turkey, and all the Turks out of Greece.

Of course, since then, mahometans have begun returning to Greece and building mosques, but the Christian population of Turkey, especially the Phanar, continues to dwindle.
---Cluny on 8/19/10


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No Pre-Trib Rapture here. Man-made doctrine.

The "hour of temptation" may refer to the period of last days tribulation. If so, the "hour" suggests the brevity of the period, which Christ said would be shortened for the elect's sake. Christ pray that God will keep his Apostles from evil, but to not take them out of the world (John 17:15).

The Old Testament is filled with accounts of those whom God allowed to undergo trial and temptation (i.e., Job).

The Lord is able to preserve those He loves by means of His presence. This alone is enough to clam storms and feed multitudes.

In IC.ZXC
---Ignatius on 8/19/10


Verse 10. Because thou hast kept the word of my endurance
signifies because they have fought against evils, and then have
rejected falsities. That the word of endurance signifies spiritual
combat, which is called temptation, is plain from what next
follows: I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which
shall be, for he who is tempted in the world is not tempted after
death. Spiritual combat, which is temptation, is called the word of
the Lords endurance or patience, because in temptations the Lord
fights for man, and he fights by means of truths out of his Word.
---simon on 8/19/10


Aka, there is currently a Philadelphia Church of God. Is that what you're referring to?
---ger.toshav on 8/19/10


i hope you are in the church of Philadelphia.
---aka on 8/19/10


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