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Scriptures For Always Saved

Is 'Once saved, always saved' a biblical teaching? Please show the scriptures.

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 ---scott on 8/23/10
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"Tell me what you feel like inside. Holy and just? Righteous? I think not!" - MarkV

This was a question given to you in a hypothetical situation. about how you would feel after throwing your dog a ball, telling him to go get it, HOLDING HIS TAIL so he couldnt get it, then KICKING him repeated for not doing as you command.

How would you FEEL after doing such a thing? Holy? Righteous? Just?

This is the portrait you paint of God with your doctrine. One who commands us to do things, holds us back from doing them, and them condemns US for not obeying!

That is not just and you know it. No scripture twisting will make it seem so.
---JackB on 8/30/10


Ginger, God does not have it wrong, you have it wrong. We might as well call all missionaries back home because as you say, every single individual has heard about Christ and His gospel. You took one passage and contradicted with another, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved. How shall they call in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:13,14), or in other words, how can the heathens possibly be saved when they have never heard of Christ who is the only means of salvation?
As I said before, discussing godly matters with you serves no purpose, so I dust my shoes off and move on.
---MarkV. on 8/30/10


You are a reformer?

So are you saying God has had it wrong all these years and he has suddenly shown only you the "light"?
Not so, brother.

I have given scripture, Kath, JackB, Shawn, and many many many others and who is that will NOT listen?
It is certainly not I.
Now you have stooped to throwing accusations at me just because I disagree with you.
I know the word of God MarkV, and half YOUR interpretation of it is false.
You must remember that out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses. And you have received that yet it is you who still does not believe. And you who still argues with the CLEAR word of God.
---ginger on 8/30/10


Also MarkV,

This is not about my common sense. That does not even matter to God. We are talking about what his word says.
God takes FOOLISH things to confound the wise. So I am not even claiming to have common sense or be wise according to GOD's word. I am foolish in my own knowledge.
BUT God says that by his grace, salvation has APPEARED TO ALL MEN.
So, no one has an excuse.
NO ONE.
How does one argue with such clear words from God?
I could understand brother if it was a parable. But this is not a parable. It is not hidden.
Yet again, because I don't agree with you, I am the one that is wrong?
Ask yourself why this is always the way with you?
---ginger on 8/30/10


Ginger, I do not have to be a Calvinist, of which I am not, I am a reformer, to know that not everyone has heard the gospel of Christ. Your remarks are become just like the rest. It seems that when most of you cannot come out with any Scripture, to debate, most of you begin to start making many remarks, while I put Scripture down for you, you completely agnore it, and make more remarks. Just say you don't believe it. I don't believe what any of you say, and I explain why. I don't make remarks against you, are ask you if you are saved, or holy, or righteous. I expect for you to be righeous already.
---MarkV. on 8/30/10




Ginger, you are a subburn person who will not listen to simple common sense. We have missionaries because many have never heard of Christ. To think that every single individual has heard of Christ is not only rediculous but insane. You want to make something false be true. The gospel goes out to all mankind in general, but not every one has heard of Christ. Why have missionaries if everyone single individual has heard of Christ and the gospel Truth. You refuse to listen to common sense, for the purpose of arguing against me. Any more truths is useless. So I will move on, and leave you peace.
---MarkV. on 8/30/10


Tit 2:11 For the GRACE of God that BRINGETH SALVATION hath APPEARED to ALL men.
-LG3

Great job!

MarkV, brother, calvinism has caused you to look at scripture HIS way NOT God's.
GOD says in this very verse that HIS Salvation has appeared to ALL men. They have no excuse.
Why are you arguing with the word of God, brother?
Please open your eyes and stop belittling the power of God.When God says every knee shall bow and tongue confess, it is no lie. When he says that he sent Christ to tesify to ALL men of HIM, he did exactly that.
We have no excuse. God has sent testimony of HIMSELF. That he is real. So, we have no excuse.
---ginger on 8/30/10


LG3, the grace of God does go out to all men. Everyone in the world enjoys the gracious things of God. Even the unsave receive what believers receive with the exception of salvation. The rain falls on them too not just us, some live more confortable lives then us. Rich with money great homes, but the things they have are only temporary. Ours are eternal. Salvation is by Grace through faith. Unbelievers have no faith.
---MarkV. on 8/30/10


Jack B, don't lose your purpose, and begin accusing. You can debate without that. Here is an answer to your question,
"counted the blood of the covenant a common thing" To reckon Christ's blood as something "common" is the same thing as saying that it is unclean or defiled (9:13) and implies that Christ was a sinner and a blimished sacrifice. Such thinking is truly blasphemous. "Blood of the covenant" Christ death inauguraed or ratified the New Covenant. "By which He was Sanctified" this refers to Christ, in that He was set apart unto God (John 17:19) where it states, "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the Truth."
---MarkV. on 8/30/10


Jack B 2: the words (He was sanctified) cannot be those who insult the Spirit of Grace, or those who trampled underfoot the Son of God. Only Jesus and those who trust in Him by faith are sanctified and anyone who loves the Lord will never trample the Son of God.
You also said,
"Tell me what you feel like inside. Holy and just? Righteous? I think not!"
I give you the Truth and you reject it not by giving me Scripture to show me I am wrong but with slanderous remarks. Yes, I am righteous, because of Christ. Not by my own works am I saved. Nothing I did was deserving of salvation. You hate that I am and you show it by your remarks. Instead of been thankful I am save, you are angry.
---MarkV. on 8/30/10




Tit 2:11 For the GRACE of God that BRINGETH SALVATION hath APPEARED to ALL men.

Says "hath" not "shall". The grace of God has appeared to all men.

hath appeared
Hath appeared ( & #949, & #787, & #960, & #949, & #966, & #945, & #769, & #957, & #951,)
Only in Pastorals, Luke, and Acts. In the active voice, to bring to light, show.

This is the Scripture disputed, even though it is very clear what has appeared and to whom it has appeared. I provided the Greek definition to "hath appeared" just in case someone would want to say that "appeared" doesn't mean "appeared".
---LG3 on 8/29/10


Jack B, 2:
It's not until God's Word comes with power that the lost receive saving faith because it will come with the Holy Spirit and full conviction:
"For we know, (you should know) brothers, loved by the God, that He has chosen you, "because our gospel came to you not only in Word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction" (1 Thess. 1:4-5).
"And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, "so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live"
(Deut. 30:6).
Your heart has to be circumcise by God for you to love the Lord. Without God's circumcism you will never love God.
---MarkV. on 8/29/10


Millions resist the gospel, God did not granted them faith when they heard the gospel. Phil 1:29 - MarkV

Where does it say in the scriptures that God has WITHHELD the things necessary for any man to do that which God requires?'

Post it! Or stop accusing the Lord of being cruel. Punishing someone in eternal fire for not having the ability to do what you command? That is simply cruel and unjust and you know it, Mark.

Throw the ball, tell the dog to go get it, HOLD HIS TAIL so he cant , and then kick him repeatedly for not doing what you commanded?

Tell me what you feel like inside. Holy and just? Righteous? I think not!
---JackB on 8/29/10


I noticed you never addressed the scripture I gave , Mark. Is it your intention to ignore it and then later claim that noone gives you any scripture directly refuting predestination to salvation as you quite often do?

Who is sanctified by the blood of the covenant, Mark? All men? Unbelievers? Only believers?

Please answer this one question.
---JackB on 8/29/10


"This should be an interesting discussion."
Yes it should be, and you and MarkV do it so well. I enjoy your debates, both of you bring very valid point to the table and leave it to the reader to come to their own conclusions. You both debate without being, or becoming, offensive towards one another, and hopefully without being offended. Well done.
---josef on 8/29/10


Jack B says,
"unbelievers who were intellectually convince of the gospel---
Oxymoron...they are either convinced or unconvinced, not both!"

Been convinced and having true faith in Christ are two different things. Millions resist the gospel, they have not been given faith. Phil. 1:29 "For it has been granted to you (believers) that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake"
Then Jack said,
" Attracted to Christ by the gospel but didnt convert. If thats not a clear cut case of resisting the Holy Ghost, then idk what is. He brings the truth.
Millions resist the gospel, God did not granted them faith when they heard the gospel. Phil 1:29
---MarkV. on 8/29/10


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Hebrews 10:26-29

For if we sin wilfully AFTER that we have RECEIVED the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Yes, of course! The unbelievers sanctified by the blood of the covenant!
Wait! Huh?

This should be an interesting discussion.
---JackB on 8/28/10


Scott 3:
in (Heb. 6:4-6). The phrase "Once enlightened" is often taken to refer to Christians, and the accompaning warning taken to indicate the danger of losing their salvation if "they fall away" and "crucify again for themselves the Son of God". But there is no mentioned of their being saved and they are not descibed with any terms that apply only to believers (such as holy, born again, righteous, or saints). The problem arises from inaccurately identifying the spiritual condition of the ones being addressed. In this case, they were unbelievers who had been exposed to God's redemptive truth, and maybe even made a profession of faith, but had not exercised genuine saving faith.
---MarkV. on 8/28/10


Believers---
a given

unbelievers who were intellectually convince of the gospel---
Oxymoron...they are either convinced or unconvinced, not both!

unbelievers who were attracted by the gospel and the person of Christ but who had reached no final conviction about Him.---
Attracted to Christ by the gospel but didnt convert. If thats not a clear cut case of resisting the Holy Ghost, then idk what is. He brings the truth.

1 Cor 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
---JackB on 8/28/10


How can you argue with ginger? I think that she has it on both ends, there.
---catherine on 8/28/10


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JackB, enjoyed your last post. I have thought of the same things.

I found my answer in Jeremiah 3.
God says he will wait for Israel to return.

So, I believe that most will not come back, but I also believe that some will return to God because he is waiting for them.

The ones who never come back, well, scripture says they were never part of us.
---ginger on 8/28/10


Scott, Hebrews addresses three distinct groups of Jews. Believers, unbelievers who were intellectually convince of the gospel, and unbelievers who were attracted by the gospel and the person of Christ but who had reached no final conviction about Him. Failure to acknowledge these groups leads to interpretations in consistent with the rest of Scripture.
1. Believers-believing Jews suffered rejection and persecution by fellow Jews (10:32-34) although none as yet had been martyred (12:4) The letter was written to give them encouragement and confidence in Christ, their Messiah and High Priest. They were an inmature group of believers who were tempted to hold on to the symbolic and spiritually powerless rituals and traditions of Judaism.
---MarkV. on 8/28/10


Scott 2:
The second group addressed were Jewish unbelievers who were convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who had not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. They are intellectually persuaded by spiritually uncommitted. These unbelievers are addressed in such passages as (2:1-3, 6:4-6, 10:26-29, 12:15-17).
The third group addressed were Jewish unbelievers who were not convinced of the gospel's truths but had had some exposure to it. Chapter 9 is largely devoted to them see ((v's 11, 14, 15, 27, 28).
---MarkV. on 8/28/10


It does appear to be addressed to Jewish Christians (3:1, 6:1)

I've always believed as long as man doesnt deny the Lord who bought him that he is saved forever. God never gives up on us! He is faithful!

But if once they are made partakers of the Holy Ghost, they turn to other gods (as Solomon did) or reject the blood of Christ and go back to Judaism, they cannot return because that would be recrucifying Christ for their sins again! (Heb 6:4-6) My interpretation of this could be off. Its always been a rather confusing set of verses for me.

Im sure youve all run across people who say they were once Christians but stopped believing and converted to another religion. They have no desire to come back.
---JackB on 8/27/10


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Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
---steven-rem7000 on 8/27/10


Just my opinion here.
---JackB on 8/27/10

It may be just your opinion but from my reading of the Bible I find to be correct. Well said and clearly followable.
---mima on 8/27/10


Let me emphasize again, that the people to whom the Book of Hebrews is written to is unsaved Jews and NOT believing Jews.

If you think this verse applies to Christians, you have misinterpreted this verse.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/10

Mark,

More than Half of the book of Hebrews warn us not to fall away from the grace we received in the New Covenant.
---Ruben on 8/27/10


//everlasting life is given to those who 'exercise faith' in God's 'only begotten Son'.///
Exercising faith in Him?--Jesus asked-Who do you say I AM?
Is 45:23
God and Saviour,[there is] none beside Me. Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth,for I AM GOD, and [there is] none else. I have sworn by Myself, the WORD is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Is He just a begotten Son?
Just man?-
an other Angel? or
Just a Prophet?-
God is Spirit-His Word is what He spoke-The Word became flesh.
Immanuel means God with us-not-who is like God.Gods' Word-strenght-is equal to Him-He swore by it-confirms it-performs it.
---char on 8/27/10


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\\//Let me emphasize again, that the people to whom the Book of Hebrews is written to is unsaved Jews and NOT believing Jews.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/10

Amen Mark_Eaton, the title kind of gives it away
---michael_davis on 8/27/10\\

Wrong.

Since when were any of the Epistles written to non-Christians?
---Cluny on 8/27/10


scott is on a plane kauai bound
---scott on 8/27/10


I disagree with MarkEaton's belief that the letter to the Hebrews was written to 'unsaved' Jews. It's clear the letter was written to Hebrew speaking Jewish Christians living in Jerusalem and part of 'the congregation that was in Jerusalem'- Acts 8:1 also 12:1.

The inspired author of Hebrews (evidently Paul) refers to those he is writing to as his 'brothers'- Heb.13:22,23. Paul is thus writing to believing Christians- his brothers, not to unsaved Jews.

From accounts in Acts, the congregation in Jerusalem regularly suffered persecution from 'unsaved' Jews. God thus saw it necessary to provide Jewish Christians in the Jerusalem congregation with needed encouragement and reminders to remain faithful. Thus the words at Heb.10:26,27.
---David8318 on 8/27/10


Scripture warns us of the possibility of our names being blotted out of the lambs book of life, and yet tells us there is no condemnation for those in Christ, and that He shall lose nothing, neither can we be separated from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

ALL must be true then. The names are in there "from the foundation of the world" (Rev 17:8). The only conclusion I come to is that all men have their names written in this book (since Christ tasted death for every man - Hebrews 2:9) until they reject the Savior that enabled their names to be in the book in the first place. Their names are then blotted out.

You cant blot something out of a book that was never written there to begin with. Just my opinion here.
---JackB on 8/27/10


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//Let me emphasize again, that the people to whom the Book of Hebrews is written to is unsaved Jews and NOT believing Jews.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/10

Amen Mark_Eaton, the title kind of gives it away
---michael_davis on 8/27/10


In God's eyes, they have trampled upon the Son of God and...esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of Jesus. (Vs 29)
---scott on 8/25/10

Let me emphasize again, that the people to whom the Book of Hebrews is written to is unsaved Jews and NOT believing Jews.

All the people that have built a doctrine on this one verse completely miss who the author is writing to.

If you think this verse applies to Christians, you have misinterpreted this verse.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/10


Isn't that the whole point? If a Christian must 'face God's judgment', they obviously have lost out on salvation. So Christians are not OSAS.
---David8318 on 8/25/10

NO, NO, NO.

The author is not speaking to Christians, he is speaking to unsaved Jews. The author of Hebrews always speaks in a third person about believers. See in the same chapter..

Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified"

In considering the audience, you will see that without the High priest sacrifice for sin, if the unsaved Jews do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus they will face God's judgment.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/27/10


'Now that they know that Jesus paid for their sins they must accept HIS sacrifice or else face God's judgment.' Eaton- 8/25/10.

I think what he is sayin here is that since Christ tasted death for every man and died for the sins of all men, if a person chooses to reject Christ and stick with the law of sacrifices that is the SIN mentioned here. Not the inadvertant sin of a follower of Christ.
---JackB on 8/27/10


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//Regarding John 3:16, everlasting life is given to those who 'exercise faith' in God's 'only begotten Son'.///
It is hearing the True Word of God the faith comes by-and hearing is given Rom10:17--God Himself--confirms His Word.(1Cor 2) Your eyes are opened to the scriptures and you declare what has been confirmed by God-(Holy Spirit)

The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ Proves Christ He is eternal-satan has been defeated.
Believers-stand firm and do not waiver.
Reading the Word -your mind is renewed you become a New Man-In-Christ Jesus.
It is not necessary for man to teach you-
1Jn3:26-29--ye need not that any man teach you.
Stay in His Word(Christ) and you will continue to be saved unto the end from deception.
---char on 8/27/10


at one time I thought once saved always saved, but now I do not. I did a tea about the lambs book of life. I found the scripture about becareful that your name may NOT be blotted out of the lambs book of life. So I think you need to do more than just pray a prayer once, and think you will go to heaven.
---Thula on 8/26/10


Mike- Regarding John 3:16, everlasting life is given to those who 'exercise faith' in God's 'only begotten Son'.

Everlasting life will be lost if one decides to stop exercising faith in God's Son.

As the resurrected Jesus said to the congregation in Smyrna at Rev.2:10, 'Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.'

These Christians did not have the 'crown of life' whilst they were still alive in the flesh. They had to die faithful.

This is consistent with Jesus' words at Matthew 24:13, 'But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.'

Paul also showed a Christian could be 'disqualified' from receiving the 'incorruptible crown'. 1 Cor.9:24-27.
---David8318 on 8/26/10


There's no acceptance with God and no salvation to eternal life except through faith in His Word-Holy Spirit-God Almighty.Gods'Word in Flesh--Immanuel,God with us.Gods' Word living in us Now-Holy Spirit.Salvation means Salvation-because of the death of Jesus(Son of Man)we our redeemed from death into life. Christ the Son of God who is eternal. As Son of Man and Son of God He is the first born of every creature-establishing The New Beginning of Life everlasting. The very Word that spoke all things into existence. He did not create Himself-nor was he created-He is the creator in Spirit-Creators Word in Flesh-and not the exact image but The image of God-in Flesh.Col 1(all)vs 15 Who is the image of the invisble God the Firstborn of every creature
---char on 8/26/10


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MarkV- Can you provide 'explicit' statements from God or Jesus which say a Christian could never be induced to lose his faith, or 'once saved, always saved'? Are there explicit statements to this effect?

I've produced explicit statements from Jesus Christ-

'But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.' Mt.24:13.

'Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.' Rev.2:10.

And from Paul who said-

'I myself should not become disapproved ('disqualified' RSV) somehow.' Disqualified from the race to obtain that 'incorruptible crown'. 1 Cor.9:24-27, Rev.2:10.

These few are explicit (and there's more). Where are yours?
---David8318 on 8/26/10


I have seen MANY Christians being ensnared, deceived, believing the devil's lies and living for their fleshly desires.

They were once saved. They have strayed so far from the Lord, doing evil things like living in fornication with men, divorcing and marrying another man because she didn't feel satisfied in regards to intimacy with her first husband.

If there's no repentence, Jesus said, "Unless ye repent, ye shall perish." That is not just for unbelievers. 1John 1:9 says, IF you confess your sins, He is faithful and just to forgive you. Try and get a Christian who has sinned to admit their in sin, it doesn't happen, at least not with the ones I've tried to help. So Once saved, always saved is a MYTH. A FALSE doctrine.
---anon on 8/26/10


"You do not understand that the warnings to all Christians are inducements to keep them save, not that they will be lost." MarkV

This is a glaring contradiction.

Why are 'inducements to keep them save[d]' necessary if a Christian remains 'saved' regardless of how he lives his life, if his salvation can't be 'lost'? Please explain.

Your word 'keep' is contradictory to your assertion that a Christian is OSAS.
---scott on 8/26/10


Mike..I agree....some people seem to think that your everlasting life can be reduced to days,weeks,months or years.
---JIM on 8/26/10


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Read very carefully the words of John 3:16. If salvation can be lost, then John 3:16 cannot be true. When someone gives me everlasting life, and I manage somehow to lose it, then it was not everlasting to begin with. Let the word speak. Read slowly and carefully.
---mike on 8/26/10


David, your presuppositions causes you to think a person can lose salvation. Salvation is never mentioned that it is lost. If you can provide passages to that effect I will read them. You use passages that seem to imply someone can. Implicit statements are not facts. Only Explicit statements are. You do not understand that the warnings to all Christians are inducements to keep them save, not that they will be lost. In fact the whole new Testament warns Christians, about many things, false prophets, teachers, the Pharisees, and those who will try to deceive the Elect if they could, but a genuine believer, is not deceived. Explicit statements clearly tell us that God, in some passages, or Jesus, will sustain us. Now those are true.
---MarkV. on 8/26/10


This question is asked because of failure to understand the cross work of Christ.
.
2 Cor 5:17
When Christ died 2000 yrs ago all our sin was still future. He paid for all sin,
Titus 1:2
Eternal life is a promise from God, who, cannot lie

Eph 1:6 .
God hath (past tense!) made us ACCEPTED in the beloved (Christ).

Rom 4:5 ,Eph 2:8,2 Tim 1:9,Titus 3:5,Gal3:3
We aren't saved by good works. We have been saved by grace through faith.

2 Cor 1:20-22,Eph 1:13,Eph 4:30
The seal of the HS is the guarantee of our redemption in Christ by God.

Eph 2:6, Col 3:1-4
From God's viewpoint we are seated already in the heavens.

Christ has made us eternally secure IN HIM
---michael_e on 8/25/10


Mark Eaton- Regarding Heb.10:26,27 I believe scot got it right in the first place and that your comment 8/25/10 doesn't contradict scot's use of Heb.10:26,27 but supports it!

'Now that they know that Jesus paid for their sins they must accept HIS sacrifice or else face God's judgment.' Eaton- 8/25/10.

Isn't that the whole point? If a Christian must 'face God's judgment', they obviously have lost out on salvation. So Christians are not OSAS.
---David8318 on 8/25/10


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"Jude 1:5 - Saved...not spiritually saved." MarkV (2)

Jude's warning would be pointless if Christians did not face a danger similar to that of those Israelites. Jude was not questioning the value of Jesus' sacrifice. That sacrifice has saved us from Adamic sin, and Jesus will protect those who exercise faith in him.

But we can lose that protection by doing what was done by many Israelites who were saved from Egypt. We can deliberately choose to disobey God.

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live..." Deut 30:19
---scott on 8/25/10


Saved from deception of false doctrine- enemy's word-instead of truth.
If you believe in the death and Complete Resurrection of Jesus Christ-Son of God-Son of Man----you will declare and support-being deliverd from deception.
As your mind is renewed with the True Word of God-line upon line-percept upon percept.--If not --you are deceived by another word-instead-and on the wrong path.

Matt24(all)Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you: and you shall be hated for MY NAME sake...
Vs13 because he that endure unto the end, the the same shall be saved.And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations,then shall the end come
---char on 8/25/10


Mark_Eaton,

Yes, sacrifice but specifically related to 'willful' (hekuseos) sin.

Willful sinners do not commit an isolated sin in a moment of weakness - the kind of mistakes we all make. They make a practice of sin. Their sins are intentional. The Bible in Basic English: [They] "do evil on purpose." Their sins are not the result of ignorance, they have an accurate knowledge of the truth about God's will.

The sacrifice of Christ covers the sins we commit because of our imperfection. (1John 2:1,2) But those who practice sin without repentance show that they have no regard for this precious gift. In God's eyes, they have trampled upon the Son of God and...esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of Jesus. (Vs 29)
---scott on 8/25/10


mima

What do Christ's words (to his believing disciples) mean to you?

"He who endures to the end will be saved." Mat 24:13
---scott on 8/25/10


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"Jude 1:5 - Saved...not spiritually saved." MarkV (1)

You are ignoring the context of Jude's statement regarding salvation and overlooking the reason that he made it.

"Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." Jude 3

As a warning, Jude then cites the example of the Jews (vs 5) "Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe."

Cont.
---scott on 8/25/10


///The above speaks of the faith of Jesus Christ.
---mima on 8/25/10///

Amen.

It is believing the true Word of God-not another-instead.

God alone knows His Word-Sent it in Flesh.
Jn1:1-15
Teaches it-confirms it-wants us to declare it and support it.
Faith in it-supports it.
Our flesh because dead to sin-once exposed and repentances of it is made.
We Praise Him for His mercy and Grace.

Christ is eternal-Word without ceasing-proven by the Resurrection.
---char on 8/25/10


"He who endures to the end will be saved." Mat 24:13

MarkV, Read the context of Jesus' words in Matthew..

He is talking to his believing disciples.

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." 24:9

"Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another..." vs 10

"Many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." vs 11

"And because [of] iniquity...the love of many shall wax cold." vs 12

"But [with that expectation in mind] he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
---scott on 8/25/10


MarkV- Regarding 1 Cor.9:27, I agree the 'race' Paul referred to involves a preaching activity, but Paul significantly associated the race with obtaining 'an incorruptible' crown (verse 25). This incorruptible crown I believe is representative of immortal life in heaven.

The resurrected Jesus said to the congregation in Smyrna at Rev.2:10, 'Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.'

Paul had to finish the race without being 'disqualified', just as the Christians in Smyrna had to 'prove themselves faithful to death' in order to receive an incorruptible 'crown of life'.

If they didn't remain faithful to death they would lose out on obtaining the 'crown of life'.
---David8318 on 8/25/10


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MarkV- 1 Cor.10:12, 'Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall', comes on the back of Paul's warnings in the previous 11 verses. Warnings to Christians not to fall into the temptation of idolatry and immorality as did 23000 unfaithful Israelites.

Verse 11 reads, '...they were written for a warning to us.'

What use is a warning if Christians could never 'fall'? Verse 12 would make no sense.

Verses 13 shows God does not take the temptation away, but 'with the temptation, he will make the way out'. Thus it is up to the individual Christian to take advantage of that 'way out' in order to 'endure it'. If they didn't, they could 'fall'.

Verse 14- 'Therefore... flee from idolatry.'
---David8318 on 8/25/10


Scott, your intepretation of passages are incorrect, you gave,
"...though you were once...fully informed, that he who saved a people out...of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." Jude 1:5 RSV" The passage nowhere indicates the people were spiritually saved, they were saved from Egypt's bondage. God destroyed them for not believing.
Second you gave,
""He who endures to the end will be saved." Mat 24:13
Here is an answer to that one,
"Everything God does will endure forever" He saved you.
Third, Phil. 2:12 is addressed to the saints, but v. 13 say's "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure"
---MarkV. on 8/25/10


"No, it's a question of faithfulness, loyalty and obedience."

Okay let us say the above is true.
Question,
How are you doing on your faithfulness?
Have you always been loyal?
Is you're obedience perfect?

On the other hand let us say what I believe is true.
Yes God has always been faithful.
Yes God has always been loyal.
Yes God has always been obedient.
The above speaks of the faith of Jesus Christ.
---mima on 8/25/10


Heb 10:26, 27
---scott on 8/25/10

Your understanding of this verse is incorrect. This verse does not apply to salvation directly.

The word "sacrifice" is the key to this verse. In speaking to Jews, the listeners would have known about sacrifices, specifically the yearly atonment for sin. In the same chapter the author tells us that Jesus has "offered one sacrifice for sins for all time".

In the verses you quote, the author is saying once the listeners have learned the truth of Jesus's sacrifice, there can no longer be a High Priest sacrifice for the atonement of their sins. Now that they know that Jesus paid for their sins they must accept HIS sacrifice or else face God's judgment.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/25/10


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"Puts the burden of assurance on we humans." mima

No, it's a question of faithfulness, loyalty and obedience.

If you are suggesting that salvation is something owed to Christians without the continual demonstration of those things, I'd say that view runs contrary to Jude 1:5, Mat 24:13, Phil 2:12 and Heb 10:26, 27, etc.
---scott on 8/25/10


This statement,

"I'd say salvation is assured as long as we remain faithful." Puts the burden of assurance on we humans. Question, are we human stronger than God? Are we holding onto God or is God holding on to us. Humans can not guarantee eternal anything but God can provide(and has) a guarantee of eternal life.
---mima on 8/25/10


Peter,
I'd say salvation is assured as long as we remain faithful.

"I desire to remind you, though you were once...fully informed, that he who saved a people out...of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." Jude 1:5 RSV

"He who endures to the end will be saved." Mat 24:13

"Therefore...as you have always obeyed, so now...in my absence, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Phil 2:12 (Addressed to the 'saints' or holy ones - Phil 1:1)

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment..." Heb 10:26, 27
---scott on 8/25/10


My understanding-Jesus death as Son of Man/God provided fleshs-death to sin- Resurrection provides us new life.
Christ only needed to fulfill-once-satan is defeated.
The Resurrection proves He is Eternal-Word never ceased.
Luke 24:39-53
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have."
vs 45 Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures, And said unto them, 'Thus it is written and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preach in His name amoung all nations, beginning at Yerusalem.
Our sins' exposed---line upon line---precept...
---char on 8/25/10


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Scott: I can only say that I think the WAY you wrote it 'once saved, always saved' is true, but NOT the 'once believed he/she was saved, always saved'.

God knows, even from before we are born, whether we will be saved. But we do not, and neither does anyone else.

The question of whether God forgives us for a while (when we repent for a while) and then condemns us again (when we fall away) or whether He never forgives.....?

I know not, but if forgiveness is not present at our death, even if it was present, it is useless at the end of all
---Peter on 8/25/10


David, the passage you gave do not say you lose salvation.
1 Cor. 9:27 is a metaphor from the athletic games. He began by saying that people who run a race have to run it all in order to receive the prize. And when he says, "but I discipline my body and bring it into submission, lest, when I preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." Disqualified from preaching. Not losing salvation.
Second you give 1 Cor. 10:12, but forgot to give v.13, "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man, but 'God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it"
---MarkV. on 8/25/10


often the debate of losing one's salvation is motivated by fears of finally
1)being accepted by God
2)being rejected due to habitual sin
Here, a) while God's love unendingly welcomes the one repeatedly finding himself failing in the fight against flesh, to keep trying, reassuring there is pardon available,
b) it will be the ultimate legal case against the one who slights the ultimate remedy to use it a license to accept sin in one's life.
Living a pure life is not easy (so we need to keep trying until we learn to do it right, precisely why Jesus' blood is efficacious to forgive) but that is no reason to succumb to the flesh.
---hop on 8/24/10


Here are a few more:
I Thes 5:23-24
Psalms 94:14
Jer 32:40
Rom 11:2 (both Jew and Gentile)
John 10:28
I Cor 1:8-9
1Thes3:13
1 Pet 1:5
Mal 3:6 (sons of Jacob = elect family of God)
Rom 8:30
Can a child of God become a child of the Devil? We should not confuse relationship (Father and son relationship) with fellowship (following Christ, and being obedient to the Father).
We may be disobedient, but we are still our Father's child. If you are a disobedient child do you believe you will be happy?
---trey on 8/24/10


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Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption
John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all, and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Rom 8:38a-39b For I am persuaded, that neither...nor...shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
---micha9344 on 8/23/10


Jesus is "the author or source of 'eternal salvation' to all who obey Him." Hbr 5:9
"By his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]." Hbr 9:12
"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]," Hbr 2:3
May "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that you may know the hope of 'His' calling, and the riches of the glory of 'His' inheritance in the saints...the exceeding greatness of 'His' power to us-ward who believe according to the working of 'His' mighty power". Eph 1:18,19
---josef on 8/24/10


There is None.
Just like the Man - made trin relig - org's churches beginning with the rcc & her daughters came up with easy believism, no works salvation, the sinners prayer teachings that came from here 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15. They'l use faith - believe scriptures & make a salvation doctrine out of them. Matt.15 v 9.
---Lawrence on 8/23/10


No, because people have a daily choice to either keep their salvation for right, or leave their salvation for sin. And many leave Christ and backslide into sin and fall from grace, rather than continue on and walk daily with the Lord, and some whom leave their salvation never repent and return to the Lord but instead they go down to their grave with their sins.
---Eloy on 8/23/10


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"Some people think OSAS is the same as, "Once PRAYED, always saved."
---Cluny on 8/23/10

How interesting you wrote this like this.

When we consider John 6:37 says,"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT.
---mima on 8/23/10


I suppose it depends on what you mean by "saved."

Some people think OSAS is the same as, "Once PRAYED, always saved."
---Cluny on 8/23/10


"But he who his joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) If someone is "joined" together with the Holy Spirit, I'd say this joining is almighty so it cannot be broken. And if God has made us obedient by nature of His love, how can we have the nature to choose to leave Him?

But saying a copy-cat prayer does not get this.

And our "free will" that can sin is separate from God. But Jesus makes us "free indeed", He guarantees in John 8:36. So, the "free will" of self is not truly free, and Jesus says "let him deny himself," in Luke 9:23. So, we must not continue to function in our self's free will.
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/23/10


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