ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Can Lay People Baptize

Is it permissible for a layperson to baptize someone?
Can a man baptize himself? Why or why not?

Join Our Free Penpals and Take The Baptism Bible Quiz
 ---mima on 8/24/10
     Helpful Blog Vote (6)

Post a New Blog



\\//This is how the first generation of Christians understood them. They were closer to the Apostles (in time, culture, and language), so they had a good idea what the Apostles were talking about.
In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/30/10//
This is an OPINION\\

Are you DENYING that the first generation of Christians were closer in culture, time, and language to the apostles, and claiming this is merely an opinion?

Are you saying that YOU--at 21 centuries and thousands of miles remove--understand them better than their initial contacts?
---Cluny on 8/31/10


//This is how the first generation of Christians understood them. They were closer to the Apostles (in time, culture, and language), so they had a good idea what the Apostles were talking about.
In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/30/10//
This is an OPINION
---michael_e on 8/31/10


fire is the latter 'baptism' or emersion that will cause our works to shine or be burnt up.
1Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
The foundation being Christ- baptized by the HS.
The building being works of, not for, salvation- baptized by fire.
---micha9344 on 8/31/10


"Opinion and scripture are different" (michael e)

You are right. That is why I do not follow your opinions. I follow Holy Scriptures, and how it has been interpreted by the Church for the past 2,000 years.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/30/10


Master John Calvin's excellent book "Institvtio Christianae religionis (The Institution of the Christian Religion)" answers these questions and many more.
---Kev on 8/30/10




//...the Truth will prevail...// - ignatius

I 100% agree with what you said.


Now, please address what I wrote to tom2 on 8/25/10. Is not the Word and the baptism of the Holy Spirit the bottom line in our life?

One more thing before this is shutdown (75)...Matthew 3:11 "...[Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

Could you explain what fire is?
---aka on 8/30/10


//This is how the first generation of Christians understood them. They were closer to the Apostles (in time, culture, and language), so they had a good idea what the Apostles were talking about.
In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/30/10//

Opinion and scripture are different
---michael_e on 8/30/10


aka,

You forgot one crucial fact. Despite the faults of Saint Peter or Saint Paul, they preached the Apostolic Faith uncorrupted. Or do you believe they err in any of their teachings?

The point is that the Apostolic Faith WILL be taught, despite the faults of Bishops/Presbyters (etc). The Holy Spirit guides the Church. And when one Bishop or Presbyter enter into heresy (which is what happen in all the Christological controversies of the 4th-7th centuries) and many followed, the Truth will prevailed (which is what happen in the Christological controversies of the 4th-7th centuries).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/30/10


"God gave you a complete book a book to syudy, whether you want to accept it or not is up to you." (Michael e)

Yet, this "complete book" (that doesn't have 66 books by the way) needs interpretation (Acts 8:27-33). This is why God set of offices in the Church for this purpose.

"Thought or scripture?"

Scripture. This is how the first generation of Christians understood them. They were closer to the Apostles (in time, culture, and language), so they had a good idea what the Apostles were talking about.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/30/10


//Now I have question for you. Why should I follow your 21st century interpretation rather than following the interpretation given by the first generation of Christians?
In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/29/10//
You shouldn't follow my or anyones interpretation. God gave you a complete book a book to syudy, whether you want to accept it or not is up to you.

//Unless the context says otherwise, it IS water baptism.
---Cluny on 8/30/10//
Thought or scripture?
---michael_e on 8/30/10




Unless the context says otherwise, it IS water baptism. -Cluny on 8/30/10

to Judaizers and proselytes.
---aka on 8/30/10


\\2. When was anybody other than John, then the 11 commissioned to Baptise.\\

Try Acts 8. This describes baptisms done by Philip the Deacon.

\\Every time baptism is mentioned in the bible , people automatically say "water.
all, baptisms are not water.\\

Unless the context says otherwise, it IS water baptism.
---Cluny on 8/30/10


Ignatius,

yes, i trust the Holy Spirit to work where and when He can. Pre-Holy Spirit, Peter denied Jesus right before the Crucifixion even after identifying Him as the Messiah. However, he was with Jesus for three years. Post-Holy Spirit, Peter was caught in hypocrasy (or Paul is a liar). Either way, both men were fallible. All men are.

Are we perfect when filled with the Holy Spirit? Paul, who we know was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9) wrote about his difficulties with his flesh (Romans 7). He even goes as far to say that sin is still in hime despite being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe the Spirit can be greived?
---aka on 8/30/10


Michale e)

2) You are right, some passages refers to the Baptism of (or "in") the Holy Spirit (Christmation) however, nearly all the time "Baptize" or "Baptized" is recorded in the New Testament, it is referring to the Mystery of Water (Holy) Baptism (or in the case of the gospels, the Baptism of John).

3) The Scripture you mention is Eph 4:5 and IT IS referring to Holy Baptism. That is how the Early Christians understood the passage, and I doubt that you are more enlighten than them.

Now I have question for you. Why should I follow your 21st century interpretation rather than following the interpretation given by the first generation of Christians?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/29/10


Michale e

1) Holy Scriptures makes it clear that the God has set up offices (e.g., Bishops/Presbyters) (a layperson is someone not in these offices) in the Church to correctly teach and interpret Holy Scriptures.

I suggest you read Saint Paul pastoral letters. The Church leaders, like our earthly father, must be obeyed in matters of the spiritual life, with humanity (1 Peter 5:5). They deserve double honor from the laity (1 Tim 5:17).

Saint Peter also recognized the Clergy (1 Peter 5:5).

Also read Acts 20:17-35. Bishops [Clergy] are shepherds in the Church of God [to the flock, Laity]. Understand now?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/29/10


1. Where is "layperson" mentioned in the Bible?
2. When was anybody other than John, then the 11 commissioned to Baptise.
Every time baptism is mentioned in the bible , people automatically say "water.
all, baptisms are not water.
Paul mentions only 3 instances where he baptised, likely Jews, since water baptism is a Jewish tradition.
3.Paul who The ascended Christ commissioned to take the gospel of grace to the world, called the body of Christ, says one Lord, one faith, one baptism, no water mentioned.
---michael_e on 8/29/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Bankruptcy


aka

"the Faith? Do you mean faith in Jesus Christ or faith in Orthodoxy?"

There is no difference.

"Do you mean every man that is Orthodox is called to be a teacher?"

Read Eph 4:11/James 3:1

"Do you mean that the teachers authorized by God are infallible?"

The Church is infallible. Bishops/Presbyters are called to proclaim the Apostolic Faith through their Anointing by Apostolic Succession. And the Apostolic Faith will be taught despite any clergy member falling into heresy. Don't you trust the Holy Spirit?

Don't you agree that the Fathers were guided by the Holy Spirit to canonized the NT?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/29/10


//...Do you deny this?// No

//And God's word is in Orthodoxy, uncorrupted. We been defending the Faith for 2,000 years!//

the Faith? Do you mean faith in Jesus Christ or faith in Orthodoxy?

also...

Do you mean every man that is Orthodox is called to be a teacher?

Do you mean that the teachers authorized by God are infallible?

---aka on 8/29/10


\\Anyone who is genuinely filled with the Holy Ghost as is found in the book of Acts the 2nd. chapter and verses 1-4 has the authority to baptize in the name of Jesus\\

Where did you get that idea?

You can not deduce it from the context.
---Cluny on 8/28/10


"no...God's interpretation is the only Word that really matters. The is only one Teacher...so Jesus says." aka)

Very True. Don't forget......

God sent men who have teaching authority within the Apostolic Church (Acts 13:1). Saint Paul recognized teachers as gifts of God to the Church (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11). This authority has transfer to successors of the Holy Apostles (1 Tim. 5:22, 2 Tim. 1:6, 2 Tim. 2:2, Titus 1:5). These teachers are given by the Lord to help us correctly understand and obey Holy Scripture.

Do you deny this?

And God's word is in Orthodoxy, uncorrupted. We been defending the Faith for 2,000 years!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/28/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Cash Advance


Anyone who is genuinely filled with the Holy Ghost as is found in the book of Acts the 2nd. chapter and verses 1-4 has the authority to baptize in the name of Jesus ( not in the titles Father, Son and Holy Ghost), but in the name of Jesus, For there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.Acts 4:12.
---Fahlyn on 8/28/10


//St. Peter disagrees with you.//

Act 10:47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

It seems St. Peter was struggling with Judaizing. Gal 2:11-21.

If you want to bapitize in water, then baptize in water. it's not gonna hurt. to immerse yourself in tradition takes the power of man. to be filled with the Holy Spirit takes the power of God.

//at least you admit that water baptism washes away sins!//

If you allow me to clarify...the jews had a ritual that was symbolic of washing away sins, which was just a shadow of things to come.

as i said before, you have the freedom. do what you think is right.
---aka on 8/28/10


Ignatius, I did not complete my sentence.

//Is YOUR interpretations what matters aka?//

no...God's interpretation is the only Word that really matters. The is only one Teacher...so Jesus says.

//Orthodoxy has got it right for the past 2,000 years.//

The Word has got it right from the beginning says St. John + the last 2000 years.
---aka on 8/28/10


Acts 10:47 is not a very good arguement for Peter disagreeing.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
---micha9344 on 8/28/10


Send a Free Smiles & Hugs Ecard


///"This statement by Epharaem the Syrian is a definite pre-trib rapture statement." IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/28/10 ///
I didn't say this. This is a GOOGLED statment.

I am simply stating if a person wants to find something on google that agrees with what he believes, he can find it.
As far as reading Epharem's writings, I would rather read the Apostle Paul's epistles, something that applies to me.
---michael_e on 8/28/10


BTW--at least you admit that water baptism washes away sins!
---Cluny on 8/28/10


\\Man can baptize with water to wash away sins temporarily (a shadow of things to come). Only God can baptize with Spirit to wash away sins permanently.
---aka on 8/28/10\\

St. Peter disagrees with you.

Acts 10:47.
---Cluny on 8/28/10


Ananias did not baptize Saul. Ananias did as Jesus instructed and laid hands upon Saul so he could regain his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus came to baptize with Fire and Spirit.
Fire (purification process) started on the road to Damascus. The baptism of the Spirit was in Damascus after Paul regained his sight.

Man can baptize with water to wash away sins temporarily (a shadow of things to come). Only God can baptize with Spirit to wash away sins permanently.
---aka on 8/28/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Credit Counseling


"This statement by Epharaem the Syrian is a definite pre-trib rapture statement." (michael e)

It was not written by Saint Epharem in the 4th century (but rather by a unknowed writer in the 7th century), and it does not teach a Pre-Trib Rapture. Have you read his other writings? Have you even read the genuine writings of Saint Epharaem the Syrian?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/28/10


//Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thes 2:15)In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/28/10 //
Very good Ignatius, Could not agree more. The tradition & doctrine taught by the Pauline epistles was never taught before Paul received the Gospel of Christ to deliver to the Body of Christ.
---michael_e on 8/28/10


In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/28/10
You are missing the point on googling.
I put no more trust in googling Margaret McDonald, "Saint" Epharaem or Psuedo Epharaem, than mickey mouse.
you can find what ever you WANT TO BELIEVE.
BTW. this was googled, which I wouldn't give 2 Cents for.
Epharaem the Syrian who wrote in 373 AD that: "For all the saint s and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." This statement by Epharaem the Syrian is a definite pre-trib rapture statement.
---michael_e on 8/28/10


"Holy tradition made by Holy men? " (Michael E)

Yes!

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thes 2:15)

"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." (2 Tim 2:2).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/28/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Relief


Numbers 21:4-9 tells about the brass serpent, which had an important funciton then and also was an important symbol of Jesus (cf.John 4:14-16). But when the Israelites started worshipping it, God commanded it to be destroyed (2King18:4).

The animal sacrifices also had their symbolic function, but when it was fulfilled (John 19:30/Matt.27:50-51), they were abolished (cf.Hebr.10:1-4).

The Bible describes the sacrifice of Christ as a COMPLETE one, ENOUGH to atone for the sins of all men and to save them (Hebr.10:14). We need no additional means of salvateion - like the brass serpent or animalsacrifice. The same way, baptism is NOT a sacrament. The REPENTANCE is what is important, not actually who baptizes.
---ann on 8/28/10


Per the question: This is one of those biblical situations where we caution ourselves to the best practise available, and so putting conscience at ease and the devil no toe-hold. I mean, can you get yourself baptised by the clergy, with ceremony, with witnesses? Then do so! Less fortunately, are you worried that you might see death before seeing a clergyman, then use who you can, you'll undoubtedly use the most righteous man you can find. For Peter said, 'Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?', and also the eunuch said, 'What prevents me from being baptised?'. For if death was imminent and you were not baptised, and without friend, would you not use the spit from your mouth and baptise yourself in the name of the Trinity?
---John_II on 8/28/10


aka,

Good, because Orthodoxy has got it right for the past 2,000 years.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/27/10


//Acts 9:10.
---Cluny on 8/27/10//
Do we surmise Ananais baptised Paul?

//We DON'T have to play by your rules!
In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/27/10//

Holy tradition made by Holy men? And BTW you don't have to play at all.
---michael_e on 8/27/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Settlement


\\\\Who baptized Saul? What authority did he have?\\

//The Apostle Ananais, who was one of the Seventy//
Scripture or thought?
---michael_e on 8/27/10\\

Acts 9:10.
---Cluny on 8/27/10


"Scripture or thought?" (michale)

Holy Scriptures is part of Holy Tradition. That Ananais was one of the Seventy is Tradition. And before you get all Sola Scriptura on us.....

Sola Scriptura is your doctrine, not Scriptures. We DON'T have to play by your rules!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/27/10


\\Who baptized Saul? What authority did he have?\\

//The Apostle Ananais, who was one of the Seventy//
Scripture or thought?
---michael_e on 8/27/10


//Is YOUR interpretations what matters aka?//

no
---aka on 8/27/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Distance Learning


\\Who baptized Saul? What authority did he have?\\

The Apostle Ananais, who was one of the Seventy.
---Cluny on 8/26/10


Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
-To whom do these verses apply?
John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
-Who are/were His disciples? 12? 120?
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Who baptized Saul? What authority did he have?
---micha9344 on 8/26/10


"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body",

"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea,"
---michael_e on 8/26/10


"
Who baptized Jesus? Was he not a lay person at the time? Is not the only requirement a disciple of Christ?" (obewan)

1) Do you know the difference between the Baptism of Saint John the Forerunner and Holy Baptism under the new covenant?

2) Saint John the Forerunner (who was a Nazarite) was the last Old Testament' Prophet.

3) In every instance of the New Testament, we do not find the disorganized format your church do every Sunday, but rather, we witness Holy Baptism being performed by either Bishops, Presbyters, or Deacons only. According to Early Christian texts (1st-8th centuries) this were the norm.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/26/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Education


\\Who baptized Jesus? Was he not a lay person at the time?\\

Nope. John the Baptist was the son of a priest, and therefore a priest himself.

\\Is not the only requirement a disciple of Christ?\\

Where did you get that idea?

Can you show me ANYWHERE in the Bible where baptism was not performed by an apostle (or their successors the bishops), presbyter, or deacon?
---Cluny on 8/26/10


In Acts it tells us that the Holy Spirit Baptism is done by the "laying on of hands" by someone who already has been Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

In rare cases, the Holy Spirit will and can show up and Baptize someone without the laying on of hands, but usually it's done by an anointed person who already has the Holy Spirit Baptism.

Water Baptism: I would assume you can dunk yourself in a pool of water because when you go under the water, you're symbolizing death to your old way of life. When you come up from the water, that represents a new life you want to start in Jesus.
---anon on 8/26/10


\\Who baptized Jesus? Was he not a lay person at the time?\\

Nope. John the Baptist was the son of a priest, and therefore a priest himself.

\\ Is not the only requirement a disciple of Christ?\\

Where did you get that idea?

Please show me one place in the Bible were Christian baptism was not administered by an apostle, their successors the bishops, a presbyter, or a deacon.
---Cluny on 8/26/10


"so, by what your saying is that it does not matter what scripture says. it matters how the orthodox church interprets it and church teaching is what matters despite scripture.
---aka"

Holy Scriptures is a product of Holy Tradition. We have been interpreting Scriptures correctly for the past 2,000 years and have defended the Apostolic Faith from heresies, especially the Christological heresies of the 4th-7th centuries.

Who do you think preserve Scriptures and canonized it?

Is YOUR interpretations what matters aka?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/26/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Home Equity Loans


Even if people ARE baptized, they may NOT be saved. Just read what John told the pharisees when they wanted to be baptized. He called them sons of Satan (vipers), not sons of God...(Matt.3:7-10).

And even if people ARE NOT baptized, they may be saved. Just read what Jesus told the man hanging on the cross beside him (Luke23:39-43).

The big difference was REPENTANCE! The willingness to die from one self and a life in sin, and open for Jesus to live inside - cf.Gal.2:20! So baptism in itself never saves anyone, it only helps us to understand the importance of repentance - if we want to be saved :)
---Ann on 8/26/10


Who baptized Jesus? Was he not a lay person at the time? Is not the only requirement a disciple of Christ?
---obewan on 8/26/10


"
Yes. And they do it every Sunday at our church. Parents baptize their children, friends baptize their friends, and youth leaders baptize their youth. They let the people choose who they want to do the ritual.
---obewan"

What a non apostolic and disorderly church you attend obewan.

It is truly sad how many churches have fallen away from Apostolic Tradition. Your "make up" church is a prime example.

In IC,XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/26/10


\Cluny, that is what it means to the Orthodox church, maybe.\\

What it means in the Orthodox Church is what it means, period.---Cluny on 8/25/10

so, by what your saying is that it does not matter what scripture says. it matters how the orthodox church interprets it and church teaching is what matters despite scripture.
---aka on 8/26/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Interest Rates


\\Cluny, that is what it means to the Orthodox church, maybe.\\

What it means in the Orthodox Church is what it means, period.
---Cluny on 8/25/10


\\Yes. And they do it every Sunday at our church. Parents baptize their children, friends baptize their friends, and youth leaders baptize their youth. They let the people choose who they want to do the ritual.\\

In other words, obewan, you just make up your own church as you go along.

There is no hand, eye, or foot. Everybody is everything.

This is NOT the model given in the Scripture.
---Cluny on 8/25/10


" You do NOT have to be a Pastor or Layperson to perform baptism or have communion." (Leslie)

Prove it using Scriptures alone. If not, please kindly admit that this is your opinion.

"Jesus told ALL of his disciples (which is us as Christians today) to baptize people in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This means that ALL Christians can baptize people."

No, Jesus told his disciples or apostles the command to baptized, not every believer. This is why in every instance of the Bible, we only see those who part of the Clergy (Bishops/Presbyters/Deacons) baptizing others.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/25/10


Yes. And they do it every Sunday at our church. Parents baptize their children, friends baptize their friends, and youth leaders baptize their youth. They let the people choose who they want to do the ritual.
---obewan on 8/25/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Internet Marketing


//Some believe there is only one baptism//

There are three Baptisms in Matt 3:11,
Matt.3:11 I(JOHN) indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he(JESUS) that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Water was real Holy Ghost is real, fire must be real)


(Israel stayed dry)
1 Cor.10: And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

(Paul and the Boc, No water)
Eph.4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

1Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit(HS) are we all baptized into one body,(BODY of Christ) whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
---michael_e on 8/25/10


Baptism and Communion are two rites that Jesus gave ALL Christians to do. You do NOT have to be a Pastor or Layperson to perform baptism or have communion. Jesus told ALL of his disciples (which is us as Christians today) to baptize people in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This means that ALL Christians can baptize people.
---Leslie on 8/25/10


Some believe there is only one baptism

Others know that there are two baptisms.

Scripture Mayhugh 3:11.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

The one baptism by the Holy Ghost and fire does not automatically follow the water baptism. If that were so all would speak in tongues.
---mima on 8/25/10


Cluny, that is what it means to the Orthodox church, maybe.

John did not say "He will baptise you with Fire or Spirit." Using your logic, we do not receive Fire or the Spirit until the Final Judgement.

Jesus judges us with eternal presence of the Father (Heaven) or eternal separation from the Father (Hell). Jesus baptizes with Fire (used in purification) and Spirit.

You can come to Christ and be immersed in the fiery trials for purifiction, and He will immerse you in the Holy Spirit.

Or you can ignore it, in which case He will judge you to the fires of Hell at the Last Judgement.
---aka on 8/25/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Life Insurance


\\the regulations that many churches have implemented over the years have no scriptural validity,God does not require a doctriate in divinity to baptize,or be in the ministry,romans 15-8,and 15-16 clearly state we are all called to evangilize.there were no early christians with doctriates.and no need of them today either.\\

Don't forget that the Apostles had the BEST training and ministry ever.

Even St. Paul had the best theological education of his time.

Furthermore, evangelization is one thing, and ministry in the Church is another.

The latter the NT clearly limits to Bishops, assisted by Presbyters and Deacons.
---Cluny on 8/25/10


\\man's ceremony (public or private) v. God's will (public or private)...the only baptism that matters is baptism through Fire (purification) and Spirit.
---aka on 8/25/10\\

Wrong,

Obviously, you do not know what "baptism of fire" means.

Here it is in simple terms:

You can come to Christ through the waters of Baptism, and He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Or you can ignore it, in which case He will baptize you in the fires of Hell at the Last Judgement.
---Cluny on 8/25/10


tom2,

Let's say that there is a man who is on his death bed and who never heard about Jesus. You skillfully and heartily show him scripture. A sense of peace comes to him as he confesses Jesus as the Savior. However, because you are not ordained, he did not hear the official church view, you did not teach him church doctrine, and God forbid you used "sola scriptura", he will not be with the father in eternity.

what you said does not necessarily indicate that you implement a scripture only approach to this question, but the argument of others do seem to indicate that baptism is through Jesus and the church.
---aka on 8/25/10


"the regulations that many churches have implemented over the years have no scriptural validity"

tom2 what a refreshing statement this is. However some of our fellow bloggers may become upset by such truths. Please be careful when penning the tail of truth on the donkey, the donkey of "tradition and bulls".
---mima on 8/25/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Make Money


"the regulations that many churches have implemented over the years have no scriptural validity" (tom2)

Which proves nothing. Sola Scriptura is your doctrine, not Scriptures.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/25/10


John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

man's ceremony (public or private) v. God's will (public or private)...the only baptism that matters is baptism through Fire (purification) and Spirit.
---aka on 8/25/10


the regulations that many churches have implemented over the years have no scriptural validity,God does not require a doctriate in divinity to baptize,or be in the ministry,romans 15-8,and 15-16 clearly state we are all called to evangilize.there were no early christians with doctriates.and no need of them today either.
---tom2 on 8/24/10


Ignatius, thanks for clarifying what you meant by private or public baptism. I misunderstood what you meant and therefore raised the questions of the meaning of baptism, knowing that there are many facets of different opinions. Consequently, I generally don't get into discussions of the "meaning or reason" for baptism for it usually leads to dissension. However, I do focus on the undisputable fact that John the Baptist baptized with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
---Rod4Him on 8/24/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Rehab Treatments


"What does baptism do?" (Rod4him)

1) What does Holy Baptism do according to your belief and interpretation on Scriptura texts?

2) How did the Early Christians (1st-8th century) understood Holy Baptism and Scriptures that teach about it (this is assuming that you have study Church History and have read ancient Christian texts from the time period above)?

The reason I am asking is that there is a vast difference between how many 21st century Protestant Christians understand Holy Baptism and how the first generation of Christians understood it.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/24/10


Cluny, thank-you for post.

What I meant was that Holy Baptism was never seen as "private" (solo) event, but that there were Clergy involved.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 8/24/10


Wasn't it Phillip who baptized the Ethiopian eunich in a "private baptism," because there was nothing to prevent it. Phillip should have said, "No, you can't be baptized now, it must be a public ceremony." To say, //Holy Baptism was never understood as a private ceremony, but rather as a corporate event// is not accurate, although I agree that the general idea was a public statement so everyone knew the believer was following Christ. Furthermore, to say baptism needs to be public raises questions. Is it for show? What does a public baptism do that a private can't do? What does baptism do?
---Rod4Him on 8/24/10


If "lay people" means other ministers in the church, then yes. No they can't baptize themselves to my knowledge.
---candice on 8/24/10


Read These Insightful Articles About Stocks


\\Holy Baptism was never understood as a private ceremony, but rather as a corporate event. \\

Well, it depends on what you mean by "private."

At the actual conferral of Baptism, only the Bishop or Presbyter, Baptizand, Sponsor, and maybe a Deaconess in the case of women being baptized would be present, as the Baptizands were nude.

This is attested in contemporary descriptions, artistic depictions, and the precedent of the Jewish Rite of Mikveh, from which Christian baptism derives.

In any case, it was NEVER administered before unbelievers in ancient times.
---Cluny on 8/24/10


According to Early Church practices, only on rare occasions would a laity baptized another. However, even from the earliest times, the Laity and Clergy were involved in the Baptismal Ceremony.

Self Baptism is not taught in Holy Scriptures, nor was it practiced in the Early Church (1st-8th century). Holy Baptism was never understood as a private ceremony, but rather as a corporate event.

In IC.XC.,.
---Ignatius on 8/24/10


If you baptized yourself, it would be a work.

Instead, you RECEIVE baptism at the hands of another.

The Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and pre-Reformation churches all say that IN AN EMERGENCY (which means imminent danger of death), a layman may baptize, by pouring water if necessary, using the proper formula.

Normally, this is the ministry of the Presbyter or Bishop.

Should the Baptizand survive, he is taken to church for a Priest to say the missing prayers and perform the other ceremonies (oil of the Catechumens, Chrism, Tonsure, etc).
---Cluny on 8/24/10


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.