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Works Evidence Of Salvation

Are good works the results of salvation or a means of gaining and maintaining salvation? Are good works an essential evidence of salvation?

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 ---mima on 8/26/10
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I agree Samuel. It is people's hard hearts that keep them from hearing the word of God. Their conscience has been seared because of all the wrong doing they have done.

I believe Francis posted the scriptures for it.

I tried to explain the reason why some men accept the Gospel and others don't to Donna66, but sadly I was ignored. Oh well. No harm no foul.

BUT.....

I am still waiting on what MarkV and Christan SAY the Gospel is.

Are they going to answer or are they afraid?
If it is fear...well that certainly does not come from God does it?
---ginger on 11/2/10


Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Deuteronomy 28:28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
Romans 11:7-8 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear,) unto this day.
2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
---micha9344 on 11/2/10


Please define works.
Maybe that will help.Is it our own works being a good person according to our own standard or is it the work we know it is God working through us?
I think maybe God has worked with us before. As children we are innocent-(maybe not all but I like to give the benefit of the doubt) that pureness of trust allowed us to just do things with an innocent heart-without a second thought.
Blindness to evil and just be us as children.
Define gentile...define jew.
We act on what we beleive.
---char on 11/2/10


GOD does not blind anyone nor did He give up on Jews. Thousdands of Jews come to JESUS all the time. Humans blind themselves to truth and choose to believe a lie. Both Jew and Gentile and many who call themselves Christians but who do not follow GOD do this everyday.

The Great deception is coming but people give themselves over to lies every day in preparation for this final event.
---Samuel on 11/2/10


The great "blinding of the Gentiles" has not taken place yet. The introduction of this blindness will be the acceptance of the great deception(the believing of a lie) which apparently takes place in its finality just before our closely after the rapture.
---mima on 11/2/10




The Jews were blinded so they could not see.

John 12:36f When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them (the Jews).Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:"Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn,and I would heal them." Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.
---leej on 11/2/10


Best I have on God " blinding gentiles" is this:

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:
---francis on 11/2/10


I know this is a little off topic but can anyone provide scripture where God has blinded the Gentiles the way He blinded the Jews to Jesus Christ?
---JackB on 11/2/10

No JackB there are no scriptures making this statement. NOW markv doesn't understand the Covenants in the Bible, and has made up his own to accomidate his beliefs, therefore cannot rightly divide the word of truth to begin with.

If you build on a faulty foundation, you will have a faulty outcome!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/2/10


I know this is a little off topic but can anyone provide scripture where God has blinded the Gentiles the way He blinded the Jews to Jesus Christ?
---JackB on 11/2/10


Amen lej.

I loved both of those posts.
I am still waiting for MarkV and Christan's answer of what they believe the Gospel is.

Are they going to answer?
---ginger on 11/2/10




What is the Gospel?

I believe that the definition is given briefly in -

1 Cor. 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand,By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
---leej on 11/1/10


Francis, A-men.
---Eloy on 11/1/10


Who are the elect?

The word elect means to choose. It is given to Christians because they are "chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," #2Th 2:13.

in the New Testament, it denotes a human community, also described as believers, saints, the Israel of God, regarded as in some sense selected by Him from among men, objects of His special favor, and correspondingly called to special holiness and service.
---leej on 11/1/10


Amen Linda..If that is not the Gospel then what is the Gospel according to what MarkV and Christian believe? I am still waiting on an answer from them. Wondering if I will ever get it.
---ginger on 11/1/10


If Jesus, speaking to the disciples, said that these signs shall follow them that believe and that was only relegated to the disciples of that day (as Mark stated on the healing blog some time ago), then we can be assured that Jesus, speaking to those believing Jews in that day in Luke 8, has nothing to do with us. According to Mark, "disciples" in the gospels means only the 12 then while "believing Jews" in those same gospels means the "elect" now. That is so inconsistent as to be humorous if it wasn't so fallible. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, the Word says. Mark says He only died for the elect. Who is wrong? The Word of God?
---Linda on 11/1/10


Eloy, your preaching your opinion again. What you say is not Truth of Scripture. Of course faith that produces no works is not true faith in Christ. Everyone knows that already. For True faith brings out good works from us since we are in Christ, but we do not get the glory, God does. What you are looking at is the work of man and not the work of God in man.
So true Christians do not say what you say they say,
"sinners say, "Faith without works is a gift of salvation.
---Eloy on 11/1/10"

. You are wrong again. True Christians say
"For by grace you have been save through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is a gift of God-not because of works, least any man should boast"
---Mark_V. on 11/1/10


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Eloy 2: And of course when you say sinners, you are speaking of believeers like me who oppose what you say. You are really not speaking about those who are none believers, since they don't say a thing about the gifts of the Spirit. So putting us with them you yourself sin, when you say such things. And then you tell everyone you are sinless. So again, you preach sinlessness and that is a false doctrine. You preach works for salvation and that too is also a false doctrine.
---Mark_V. on 11/1/10


Mark, Jesus was talking to the believing JEWS in Luke 8:10.

If Jesus spoke in parables so that *some* Gentiles wouldnt understand (current day) then why did the HOLY GHOST lead men to explain the parables in the word of God? That makes no sense unless it was only intended to be a secret to JEWS of THAT day.

If you recall from reading Romans, God has blinded the Jews to Christ because they seek righteousness by the law and NOT by faith. The just shall live by faith.

Therefore, any JEWS who believe in CHrist have had the blinders removed by the Father (as Jesus explained to Simon Barjona - Matt 16:17). If God didnt release *SOME* Jews from their blindness, the Gentile world would not know Jesus Christ to this very day.
---JackB on 11/1/10


God says, "Faith without works is dead":
sinners say, "Faith without works is a gift of salvation.
---Eloy on 11/1/10

So nice, had to give it twice
---francis on 11/1/10


Ginger, nonChristians whom have "religion" deceptively think that they have "Christ", and confuse these two different things as being the samething. And so they easily separate their religion from their daily sin, and just take out their religion once a week on Sunday in church or whenever convenient, and then they put their religion away again to continue living out their sinuous and Christless life. Jesus told the religious man in John chapter 3, "You must be born-again". For all the religion in the world cannot save a soul.
---Eloy on 11/1/10


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Mima,
God says, "Faith without works is dead":
sinners say, "Faith without works is a gift of salvation.
"God's commandment is Do My Works, the commandment is not do nothing and I will give you my salvation: for every fruitless branch is accursed and will be gathered together and thrown into the fire, and none of them will be given my salvation: for thus says the Lord, when you do nothing for me, you receive nothing from me. And when you teach persons to disobey my commandment, I will take away your part out of my Book of Life, and out of my holy city."
---Eloy on 11/1/10


Well, If Eloy is not telling the true Gospel, Markv and Christian...WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?

Eloy, I agree with you but I would like to know really what MarkV and Christan believe the Gospel is.
Hopefully they will both answer.

Also, Francis, Kev, Rhonda, Leej and Eloy, great comments. Micha that scripture you gave was wonderful too!
---ginger on 11/1/10


MarkV, yes I preached the gospel to you, as verbatum: "there is right and wrong, light and darkness, the life of Christ and the dead-existence without Christ, the saved and the condemned, the fruitful and the barren, those who do the works of Christ and they who do nothing, there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun, there are they whom go to heaven and there are they whom go to hell. The dead branches are gathered up and cast into the fire, the salt that loses its savor is cast out and trodden under foot of men, the candle hidden under the bushel has no light to shine."
---Eloy on 11/1/10


Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

If you are going to be anywhere near effective in being able to baptise and teach others what Christ has commanded of us
you have to be someone that people can respect. And that certainly would reflect upon what your works have been and are. In that sense, good works are an essential evidence of salvation, particularly that of others.
---leej on 11/1/10


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Amen francis

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

We are saved by grace of God through our faith , not of ourselves or by works ...good works cannot gain salvation Eph 2:7-9

Works as "evidence" of salvation? one does not prove their salvation to any man although by our Works they may know us as Gods ...Works glorify the Father in Heaven Titus 2:7, Matt 5:16, 1Pet 2:12
---Rhonda on 10/31/10


Eloy,
you said,
"MarkV, you will not understand the gospel from Christ that I preach, because you harden yourself against the truth, and in the place of truth you are given nonTruth. The gospel is clear to those whom acknowledge it:"
Eloy, you were not preaching the gospel of Christ. You were just speaking your opinion that was in your mind, and when you wrote it, you made a few mistakes, so I answered you to question what you said. I did not see one Scripture with your answer to indicate you were preaching the gospel. You were just letting out steam as always when someone questions you.
---Mark_V. on 11/1/10


1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
---micha9344 on 10/31/10


No matter how you look at it. Salvation is given only to THOSE WHO OBEY.

Now if you want to call obedience work, go ahead.God cals it LOVE. But rest assured that those who do not obey will find neither grace nor salvation.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
---francis on 10/31/10


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MarkV, you will not understand the gospel from Christ that I preach, because you harden yourself against the truth, and in the place of truth you are given nonTruth. The gospel is clear to those whom acknowledge it: there is right and wrong, light and darkness, the life of Christ and the dead-existence without Christ, the saved and the condemned, the fruitful and the barren, those who do the works of Christ and they who do nothing, there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun, there are they whom go to heaven and there are they whom go to hell. The dead branches are gathered up and cast into the fire, the salt that loses its savor is cast out and trodden under foot of men, the candle hidden under the bushel has no light to shine.
---Eloy on 10/31/10


Eloy, you make no sense with your statements. First you say,
The condemned souls lie and blaspheme saying, God's grace is given to the nonWorking disobedient sinners:"
All condemn souls are all descendants of Adam. They do not believe in God period. They do not believe in Grace in the first place so how can they say what you said?
Second you say,
"My grace is given only to the obedient and working saints:"
His Grace for salvation is given first, then they obey. Why would they obey before they knew about His Grace? The lost don't know about His Grace, so how can they obey? You make no sense. A person obey's because he is saved.
---Mark_V. on 10/31/10


Eloy, you commented - "Noah finding favor with God was because he was obedient..." What you have commented demonstrates that you are a "works monger", in short, one has to work to earn salvation which is not grace according to Paul (read Romans and Galatians 3 & 4.)

The order when one receives faith from God is he will believe in every Word that comes from the mouth of God, like Noah.

A Christian is one that does good works (because it's already been prepared for him by God - see Ephesians 2:9) BECAUSE he's already been saved by "grace through faith".

The other is, you have to do good works to be saved. Hence, "Noah finding favor with God was because he was obedient..."
---christan on 10/31/10


The Geneva New Testament Translated out of Greek by Theodore Beza (who of course has been charged as ''Calvinist'', ''hyper-Calvinist'',''inventing limited atonement'' & c.) at Titus 2:11, For the grace of God, that bringeth saluation vnto all men, hath appeared,. note 5 immediately explains,

The eight admonition belonging to all the godly, that seeing God calleth all men to the GOSPEL, and Christ hath so iustified vs, that he hath also sanctified vs, we must all of vs giue our selues to true godlinesse, and righteousnesse, setting before vs a sure hope of that immeasurable glory: which thing must in such sort be beaten into their heads, that the gainesayers also must be reproued, by the authoritie of the mightie God.
---Kev on 10/31/10


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The condemned souls lie and blaspheme saying, God's grace is given to the nonWorking disobedient sinners: But contrary to this lie God says, My grace is given only to the obedient and working saints: So whom should we believe? the lying and condemned sinners? or believe the Most High God, whom is the Creator and the Judge of all the earth?
---Eloy on 10/31/10


Words are merely the result of one's salvation.

Consider -

Romans 4:3f For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,and whose sins are covered, blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.
---leej on 10/30/10


My point to Francis was that he was speaking for works of obedience, Noah's own works, bringing him to salvation. Which if it was the case, salvation was no longer by the grace of God but by man's grace towards God.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/10

Noah did not buld the ark to obtain grace, he obtained grace FIRST then his work proved that he had grace.

Noah did not build the ark first, he had FAITH first that God would send rain, then he worked.

We work ( whatever work means to you) Because we have faith.
---francis on 10/30/10


The result of salvation is Jesus Christ. HIS name is salvation.
Its all Jesus Christ. Its your faith in HIM and HIS works that saves. period....
HE IS THE ONLY WAY.
---duane on 10/30/10


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Christian, Noah finding favor with God was because he was obedient, A DOER, not because he was disobedient and a nonDoer. All the favored of God are destroyed with the nonfavored ones if the favored one refuses to obey and do God's Work as Commanded. If Noah would have refused God's Commandment to Work, he would have been condemned with the rest of the disobedient NonWorkers. The Ark he worked to build saved him, not a nonproduced ark. Just as the figless tree is condemned, and God Commands all to go out into his vineyard and Work, ALL whom disobey get nothing from God but that which was entrusted to them will be taken from them and given to others bringing forward the fruits: and the nonWorking are thrown into everlasting fire and damnation.
---Eloy on 10/30/10


Mima, God Commands us to Do Good Works, and our salvation or condemnation is determined by our obedience or disobedience to his Command. God commands all:

Be perfect- Mat.5:48, Heb.10:14, I Thes.5:23
Be righteous- Deut.6:18, Mat.5:20, II Tim.2:19
Be good, and bear good fruit- Mat.12:33, Mat.5:44, James 4:17, 3 John 11
Be obedient- Deut.13:4, Jer.7:23, Rom.6:16
Sin not- Psalms 4:4, John 5:14, 8:11, Rom.6:12, I Cor.15:34
Be clean- Isaiah 1:16
Be pure- James 4:8, I John 3:3
Be holy- Lev.19:2, 20:7,26, Gal.5:16, I Thes.5:17, John 14:20.
Lie not- Lev.19:11, Col.3:9
Bless, and curse not- Mat.5:44
---Eloy on 10/30/10


Francis, the whole matter of who we are and what we do as Christians is by "the will of God"
If we do anything that is good, obedience, helping others, sacrificing ourselves for someone, and many more things, it is by the will of God. I speak to you and others today, by the will of God. If you notice when Paul spoke many times he would say, "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God"
We understand that all we do in obedience is by the will of God. Without the will of God we would be doing our will.
If you read the New Covenant God says,
"and I will put a new Spirit within them, and take the stoney heart out of their flesh,
---Mark_V. on 10/30/10


Genesis 6:7,8 - "And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."

James 2:26 - "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Man can do all the "good works he wants to justify his salvation" but if you are not born of the Holy Spirit by the will of God, "...all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)
---christan on 10/29/10


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Cluny, what you are saying is that Scripture indicates that when man got together with those who were saved, they were considered saved themselves. Ok, now how does that have anything to do with Noah? Salvation is by the Grace of God through faith, in both Old and New Testaments. The gospel message never changes. We know it is not by works or merits. That is obvious. Since the word of God says, that if it is of works, it is no longer Grace.
My point to Francis was that he was speaking for works of obedience, Noah's own works, bringing him to salvation. Which if it was the case, salvation was no longer by the grace of God but by man's grace towards God.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/10


---Mark_V. on 10/29/10

Noah did not just have FAITH.
He worked he BUILT THE ARK

Hebrews 11:7 By FAITH Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, PREPARED an ark to the SAVING of his house, by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

If Noah did not build the ark could we really say he had faith, or believed God?
---francis on 10/29/10


MarkV, francis, and Eloy--remember that "saved" had an entirely different meaning in a Jewish or OT context from what it means among most American evangelicals.

Generally in Jewish thought, one is not saved or redeemed individually, but by being part of the saved, redeemed people.
---Cluny on 10/29/10


Francis, since you agree with Eloy and say that you like reading the Truth every so often, can you take us to where it says that Noah was saved because of his works before or after..I see you like after, so can you provide the Truth from Scripture?
---Mark_V. on 10/29/10


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Noah was not saved before he worked to build the ark, but after, after obeying God's Commandment to Work.
---Eloy on 10/29/10

Every now and again, I see a post that just tells the truth. This is one of them.
---francis on 10/29/10


Noah was not saved before he worked to build the ark, but after, after obeying God's Commandment to Work.
---Eloy on 10/29/10


Kathr, if what you say is true this time and you spoke alot without Scripture, then why didn't that change happen to you? Why all the hate? Why hasn't there been no humbleness? Where is the love of Christ for your brother or sister, or your fellow man? Why do you call those who don't agree with you, who give you Scripture in which you never answer for, stupid? Is that the evidence you are talking about?
When you said,
"Good for you Linda, the more they talk the more they reveal their stupidity."
Is that the change you were talking about?
Slandering anyone that will not agree with your comments?
---Mark_V. on 10/29/10


mima CHANGE is the evidence of salvation. Being crucified with Christ is the evidence of salvation. now the fruit of the spirit is love joy peace longsuffering etc, and continues to say..and those who are Christs have crucified the flesh.


CHANGE/FRUIT comes only to those who identify in His death and resurrection life. Crucified with Christ, raised a NEW or CHANGED creature.

Hate turns to love, peace, longsuffering and patience. You know murder is not a fruit of the spirit.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


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//You DO NOT work for your salvation, BUT BECAUSE of your salvation---
wivv on 10/26/10//
Amen, could not be plainer
---michael_e on 10/28/10


A Christian WILL produce good fruit. No exceptions...not so he can "stay" saved, but because he IS saved.


No point lecturing those who claim "Christianity" while living a sinful lifestyle. These people need the Gospel,as sure as any unredeemed person anywhere.
---Donna66 on 10/28/10


No work, then no salvation: workless souls are condemned, and not saved.
---Eloy on 10/28/10


Mima, "love" is an action verb: feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. Because by obeying the command of the golden rule, you are ministering salvation to the one in need: but if you disobey the command, and let others perish, than how can you have any salvation for yourself? The do nothings, have nothings, for only the doers are saved.
---Eloy on 10/28/10


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"You DO NOT work for your salvation, BUT BECAUSE of your salvation." Only God can judge accurately if a person is saved or not - works does not determine this. However, if a Christian claims to be saved and does nothing - there seems to be room for evaluation. James 2:17-18 (NASB77)
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, "You have faith, and I have works, show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
---wivv on 10/26/10


[A]. Good works are a result of salvation. [B] You cannot work your way into it. My goodness, folks, please get a-hold of that! I am sure this is why my mom cannot figure out why she's in hell. Good works, never been bought, saved, through God's Blood. She was never raised from the dead. God and myself had a conversation about her. I speak the truth. Pleaseee. [c]. As I have stated in A. Evidence. [d] Good works are not proof that one is saved. Many do good works, still go to hell. Note: I had to look over this question, three times.+
---catherine on 10/25/10


Thanks MarkV.
My thoughts-
The Face of God-Yeshua.
Those who believe in the Word of God-Come face to face with the Father-In-Christ-Covered by the Glory of the Son in the presence of the Father.
Become heirs through Christ in-righteousness.
Only because of the Works Christ has done-We rest.Knowing His Work is sufficient for us.
Jn 10:38
Rev 14:13
For this we have peace-our labour is of The Holy Spirit-within us-Word of God-confirmed.
Rom 3 (all)
Because of His Love for us we labour in Peace(In-Christ)knowing it is because of His Works-not our own-that we are saved.
Rom 3:20---But Now---a difference from Then--
Where[is]boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay:but by the law of faith.
---char on 10/18/10


Char, I really liked your answer. Tommy3007 answer also. I will post yours again,
Good work are good works.Many people have them-however-the works of the Holy Spirit (God and Word-Christ- within you)working through you as your mind is renewed with the Word of God-produces fruits of the Spirit. This is the New Man in Christ. This is the shadow of us in our life within the Everlasting.
He alone gets the glory"

What David is talking about are man's own self-righteous works, that don't include Christ. And they do not get you anything. For anything without faith is sin. A genuine believer's works are those that are led by the Holy Spirit in a believers life, as their minds are continually renewed.
---MarkV. on 9/14/10


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// IF a person is a Chistian, they will exhibited this grace by producing "fruit"
---wivv on 9/4/10 //

amen, makes sense
---michael_e on 9/11/10


Here's an old saying, "You don't work FOR salvation, you work BECAUSE of salvation" Salvation is 100% grace on God's part and 100% faith on man's part.

Romans 11:6 (ASV) But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. Philippians 1:11 (ASV) being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are through Jesus Christ .... IF a person is a Chistian, they will exhibited this grace by producing "fruit"
---wivv on 9/4/10


mima, is dying as a martyr for Christ during the Tribulation because you REFUSED to take the Mark of the Beast such a horrible way to end your life?

As I've said elsewhere, the wounds of the martyrs and confessors will be among the ornaments of heaven.
---Cluny on 8/27/10

Very good point Cluny!!
It will be those who die for Christ during the tribulation that will Reign with Christ for 1000 years. (Remember to the Lord,a day is like 1000 years)

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
---David on 8/28/10


\\--David, question, is it correct to say that if the church goes through the tribulation the church would have to take the mark of the beast?
---mima on 8/27/10 \\

mima, is dying as a martyr for Christ during the Tribulation because you REFUSED to take the Mark of the Beast such a horrible way to end your life?

As I've said elsewhere, the wounds of the martyrs and confessors will be among the ornaments of heaven.
---Cluny on 8/27/10


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---David, question, is it correct to say that if the church goes through the tribulation the church would have to take the mark of the beast?
---mima on 8/27/10

Sadly (and I say this in tears) most will Mima.

Remember what the Lord said, "When I return will I find faith on Earth?"

Why would the Lord say this?
It's because most will not have enough Faith and will deny our Lord, as did Peter.
That is why the story of Peter's denial is in the Bible, as a warning to those who think that they will endure.

Many claim to have Faith, but they must ask themselves, is my Faith greater than one who denied Jesus after witnessing all those miracles?
---David on 8/27/10


"If Jesus comes after the Tribulation, the Church must therefore go through the Tribulation.
Correct?"
David on 8/27/10
The word "elect" (Matt 24:31) is Greek. It means "select and/or chosen" in all New Testament uses. Since Matt 24 is about the Tribulation this is speaking of "chosen ones" in the Tribulation. These folks were not part of the Church/Body of Christ. If they were the word Church would have been used.
Also the word heaven (v31) here means the abode of God.
The generation that shall not pass away until they see these things (v34) is also the Tribulation era people. They may be alive today. They are not Saved or part of the Church/body of Christ.
---Elder on 8/27/10


---David, question, is it correct to say that if the church goes through the tribulation the church would have to take the mark of the beast?
---mima on 8/27/10


David rightly divide the Word of Truth. Matt 24 is about Tribulation Saints not Church age Saints. ---Elder on 8/26/10

Correct, it is about those who go through the Tribulation.
You Read might want to read (Matthew 24) again, especially verse 29-31 in the KJV.
Jesus clearly says in those verses that he comes AFTER the Tribulation.

If Jesus comes after the Tribulation, the Church must therefore go through the Tribulation.
Correct?
---David on 8/27/10


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This question came out of a phone conversation that I had this morning.
This man also expressed the opinion, which I agree with, that after one has salvation a person does not have to do anything to remain saved.
---mima on 8/26/10


So that would mean..... that you both disagree with Jesus Christ.
(Matthew 24:13)
"He who stands firm to the end will be saved."
---David on 8/26/10
Actually, David, you should have quoted from James 2:17-18, where James speaks of "faith without works" as being dead. You don't have to work to maintain your salvation, but, your works do prove the validity of your salvation.
---tommy3007 on 8/27/10


"(Matthew 24:13) He who stands firm to the end will be saved."
David
David rightly divide the Word of Truth. Matt 24 is about Tribulation Saints not Church age Saints.
---Elder on 8/26/10


This question came out of a phone conversation that I had this morning.
This man also expressed the opinion, which I agree with, that after one has salvation a person does not have to do anything to remain saved.
---mima on 8/26/10


So that would mean..... that you both disagree with Jesus Christ.
(Matthew 24:13)
"He who stands firm to the end will be saved."
---David on 8/26/10


OBEDIENCE to God's word is essential evidence of salvation: Forgiveness, showing Mercy to others, turning the other cheek, abstaining from all forms of fornication, not committing adultery, the lust of the flesh-denying it and walking by the Spirit to put the deeds of the flesh to death.

OBEDIENCE is much more important than good works. What do you consider GOOD WORKS?

How about OBEDIENCE to God's word, isn't this the result of salvation by loving God with all of your heart, soul, mind, will and emotions?
---anon on 8/26/10


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This question came out of a phone conversation that I had this morning.
This man also expressed the opinion, which I agree with, that after one has salvation a person does not have to do anything to remain saved.
---mima on 8/26/10


Good work are good works.Many people have them-however-the works of the Holy Spirit (God and Word-Christ- within you)working through you as your mind is renewed with the Word of God-produces fruits of the Spirit. This is the New Man in Christ. This is the shadow of us in our life within the Everlasting.
He alone gets the glory-
---char on 8/26/10


I like to express it this way:
We are not saved by good works but we are saved unto good works.
---Bruce5656 on 8/26/10


For faith - Godly works - salvation All work together like hand in glove.
---Lawrence on 8/26/10


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The most fundamental is the repentance from sins since they are evil. The one who is in evil cannot do good works because evil is not in the business of doing good. Thus, cleaning up one's own house from sins is most fundamental, since from the clean house clean or good works will flow automatically. God Bless.
---simon on 8/26/10


Change lives is the evidence of salvation.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 6:9 neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
---francis on 8/26/10


Which is the most important ingredient in a cake?

Which is the most important leg of a three-legged stool?
---Cluny on 8/26/10


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