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Jesus Comes Back For Dead

Why would Jesus come back for us if we go to heaven when we die?

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 ---jerry6593 on 8/28/10
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Axey: You seem unsure of the truth of the Bible. Say it ain't so!
---jerry6593 on 9/12/10


Strong Axe, You're right there's no "absolute" guarantee that every writer was 100% accurate in his report, it's a judgement call, based on what is a most logical and reasonable conclusion to draw for your own peace of mind and the least doubts! Taken on "faith" (the assured expectation of things hoped for...) "Hope" is necessary as a part of faith. "If a person has something does he still hope for it?" Faith, hope and love go together as part of a Christian's walk!IMHO.
Being of the majority opinion is not my strong suit!
---1st_cliff on 9/9/10


1st_cliff:

While the fact that Jesus and the Apostles quoted from several old testament scriptures indicates that they held them in great esteem, that does not necessarily per se "prove" they were inspired, as they also quoted from apocryphal books not in our canon (for example, Jude quotes 1 Enoch), and Paul even quoted several pagan Greek philophers.

Also, the fact that some contemporary historians (such as Josephus) acknowledge Jesus as real, that doesn't prove that the four canonical gospels tell the right story about him, since there are other non-canonical gospels that also talk about Jesus but in ways that contradict the four. Mere historians give us no way to tell which set of gospels is right and which is wrong.
---StrongAxe on 9/8/10


Jerry, You know from my posts that I'm with you on that subject!

Strong Axe: Secular history and the Gospels indicate that Christ was real and did the things written about Him
Jesus and His (chosen) Apostles quote from the OT scrolls to confirm it's testimony.
From that I conclude it's truthfulness because the chance of "one person" fulfilling all the prophecies about Him is astronomical! So it was not by chance but by design! True?
So it becomes eyewitness testimony and not just "scripture words"
Can any other religion make that claim?
---1st_cliff on 9/8/10


Cliff: I think the best evidence of the Jewish mindset on the state of the dead, as well as Lazarus' state in death is given by the maid Martha in conversation with Jesus over her btother' death.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jesus had already confirmed that Lazarus was asleep, and now He confirms that:

Joh 11:25 ... I am the resurrection, and the life:

Note that scripture records no tales of heaven's glory by Lazarus.
---jerry6593 on 9/8/10




1st_cliff:

I do not presume to have the wisdom, nor the authority (nor the audacity) to make such a declaration - and nobody else here has those either.

You said: God declared what words He said and had them written down.

Yes, but we have only the scripture's own word for that (and scriptures of other religions say very similar things too). If aren't sure that scriptures are reliable, you have a chicken-and-egg problem. You can't use unreliable scriptures to prove that those same scriptures are reliable.

How do we know which scriptures to trust? Thousands of years of tradition! If we throw that out, we're forced to rely solely on our own finite and personally biased opinions.
---StrongAxe on 9/8/10


Strong Axe, Something to ponder,if you say you "research" everything,
The Rich man and Lazarus (parable?) that fundamentalists lean so heavily on, to prove "life after death"
Fact #1 Luke was not Jewish, but Greek
Fact#2 He was not an Apostle
Fact#3 No record of him ever meeting Jesus personally
Fact#4 No other bible writer backs up this story
Fact#5 At the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses a matter will be established
Q.. where did he get this (weighty)story that gives credence to soul's immortality?
cont...
---1st_cliff on 9/7/10


Strong Axe, Not that callous but,do you or anyone have the authority to "declare" any writings "inspired"?
How do you judge "inspired"?
Because someone "says so"?
God declared what words He said and had them written down.
He spoke "audibly" to prophets of old he does not and has not in 2,000 years.
We have sufficient information for salvation, what more do we need?
Oh yes some imagine He speaks to them, but ...well ..I'll just leave it at that!
I've lived a long time..but I'm not as gullible as I used to be!
---1st_cliff on 9/7/10


1st_cliff:

So are you're saying that the New Testament is not Inspired Scripture, but just a bunch of (sometimes wise) stuff a bunch of guys who hung around with Jesus (or with other people who hung around with him) happened to write down, and should be judged in the same way we should scrutinize other books we find in a Christian bookstore?
---StrongAxe on 9/7/10


Strong Axe, There are many things to consider when discussing "The Bible"
In man's 6,000 year history, how long has the common man had a "bible"?
When Jesus sent out the evangelists (circa 34ce) and said "Make disciples" They had No NT! (in fact no bible)They had Jesus' words fresh in their minds. Were Paul's writings necessary for salvation then?His "organization" of "churches?
From this I glean that the OT is really "inspired scripture" While the Gospels tell of Jesus' ministry!
Is more necessary? It was sufficient then.
And it's sufficient now!
---1st_cliff on 9/7/10




1st_cliff:

If you ever read any of my posts, you would see that I advocate always researching things (like the Bereans in Acts 17:10-11) rather than just blindly believing what somebody tells me.

However, one yardstick all Christians believe in is that the Bible is a (if not the) foundation for their faith. If you can't rely on the Bible as being true, what more sure authority do you use to judge the Bible?

(This is not a rhetorical question, but a fundamental question of Biblical epistemology - and not one that is easy to answer.)
---StrongAxe on 9/7/10


Strong Axe, Are you your own person? Do you rely on others to tell you what to do?
When you read the newspaper do you reject all of it because some columnist errs?
Be in control, do your own research,following others is just too confusing!
Ever do a jig-saw puzzle? Every piece must fit to complete the picture.Some look the same but don't fit. Same with Christianity,it's not all black and white.
Most are content to let others do their thinking.
My mind will not accept that which is illogical or unreasonable!
---1st_cliff on 9/7/10


1st_cliff:

Nevertheless, you disagree with some things Paul taught. This means that you think it's reasonable to disregard some of his teachings.

Once one opens this particular can of worms, one must ask: just WHICH of Paul's teachings must one follow, and which ones is one free to reject? And if Paul's New Testament writings are subject to such selective "divine inspiration", how about any of the other epistles? How about the Gospels? Where does it end?
---StrongAxe on 9/6/10


Jerry, According to my "New Compact Bible Dictionary" by Zondervan under "Pharisees" pg.454 says They believed they were the ONLY interpreters of God's word.
The doctrines of the Pharisees included predestination.They also laid much stress on the immortality of the soul and had a fundamental belief in spirit life,teachings which usually caused much controversy when they met the Sadducees who just as emphatically denied them. That the souls of the wicked were detained forever under the earth while those of the virtuous rose again and even migrated into other bodies (Josephus antq.18.1)
---1st_cliff on 9/6/10


Strong Axe, I don't believe in "burning any of Paul's writings" He was a brilliant orator/lecturer.
I just contrast his method and message with Christ's.
Paul set up churches in Asia Minor with a myriad of rules (dos and don'ts)typical pharisees style (laws)
His "in the body-out of the body absent from the body" smacks of immortality!
Jesus sent His disciples out in 2s saying "make disciples" not churches. He freed us from the laws!(I doubt he was "inspired" by God) Just zealous!
Jesus taught "resurrection from death" not a joining of body and spirit/soul which are supposedly still alive somewhere!
---1st_cliff on 9/6/10


At death only the spirit ascends up to Jesus who gave it, but your body and soul remain behind until the rapture, as in the valley of dry bones (Ezk.37:1-14) and as Jesus raised Lazarus (Jn.11:14-44). Pleas Read- Daniel 12:1-3 + I Thessalonians 4:15-18.
---Eloy on 9/6/10


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No where in Paul's writings do I see the immortality of the soul doctrine. That doctrine comes from outside sources that seek any little thread to hold their belief together from the Bible instead of letting the Bible teach them. Paul writes:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality

Paul shows here his position. Not immortal soul. But resurrection from sleep.
---Samuel on 9/6/10


1st_cliff:

If you believe the teachings of Paul are unreliable, what yardstick would you suggest that we use to determine just which parts of the New Testament are inspired by God, and which ones should be removed and burned instead? It must be a fairly narrow one, since Paul wrote more than half of the New Testament.
---StrongAxe on 9/5/10


cluny: Is this verse in your Bible?

1Ti 6:16 [God] Who ONLY hath immortality


Cliff: I don't think that the error is with Paul or that the Pharisees believed in the immortality of the soul (they believed in the resurrection and the "putting on" of immortality at that time - at the "last day"). Remember, Paul wrote the verse above.

The difficulty is not with Paul's beliefs, but in understanding his writings. Even Peter admits such difficulty:

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
---jerry6593 on 9/6/10


Cluny, No, I have no authority,but I know how to read,study and whether or not I'm being bamboozled!
I have faith not credulity!
I don't accept things just because somebody "says so" or writes it down on
"holy paper"
Do you know how many religions there are in this world? All claiming to be the "right road"?
The Koran,Book of Mormon, Vedas,Talmud etc all claiming to be "holy writings" with millions of followers.
They will not read the bible because they have found their faith.
I dismiss things "only" after I investigate!
---1st_cliff on 9/6/10


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\\Cluny, Yes those verses are in my bible also, written by Paul who like all Pharisees believed in the immortality of the human soul which, as far as I'm concerned disqualifies him as an apostle!\\

So, 1stCliff, you seem to feel that some parts of the New Testament are not trustworthy, and on your own authority you decide who is qualified to be an apostle and who is not.

Do I understand you right?

Or are you speaking ironically?
---Cluny on 9/5/10


Cluny, Yes those verses are in my bible also, written by Paul who like all Pharisees believed in the immortality of the human soul which, as far as I'm concerned disqualifies him as an apostle!
It's not unusual for converts to bring along some baggage from their former religion!
---1st_cliff on 9/5/10


Jerry, is this passage in your Bible?

2 Cor 5

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
---Cluny on 9/5/10


cluny: "And when you die, Jesus comes to receive you to Himself"

Talk about extra-biblical! Where do you find that in the Bible - 10 Billion second comings!

Look who else believes in soul sleep:

Joh 11:11,14 .... Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. ... Lazarus is dead.

Absent from the body... This expression is used several times by Paul and is equivalent to our "though I'm absent from you physically, I'm with you in spirit."

1Co 5:3 For verily, as ABSENT in body, but PRESENT in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present,

2Co 13:10 Therefore I write these things being ABSENT, lest being PRESENT I should use sharpness
---jerry6593 on 9/4/10


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Cluny:

That is true. However, at the same time, the mother could easily have child-proofed the socket so the child could not hurt itself.

This would be even more telling if the mother was herself an electrical engineer and designed the socket in such a way that the child was endangered, rather than putting it out of the child's reach.

In Eden, God could spare an angel to keep Adam and Eve out of the garden after they sinned, but he couldn't spare one to keep them away from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, even knowing full well that they would otherwise go for it?
---StrongAxe on 9/4/10


Cluny, OK the sign says speed limit 60mph,cop stops you,says you were doing 80
fine is $200. Is this punishment for disobeying the law or just the consequence of your actions?
Eating the forbidden fruit didn't harm A & E,like an electric shock, but the act of disobedience did because there were consequences for their actions that God warned them in advance.
Mom says "stick your finger in the socket and I will spank you" The shock is a consequence but the spanking is punishment!
A & E were "punished" for disobedience,affecting all future generations!
---1st_cliff on 9/4/10


\\If I were already with Jesus in heaven, why would He need to came again and receive me unto Himself to take me to where He was???\\

And when you die, Jesus comes to receive you to Himself (God willing).

How does "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" fit in to your soul-sleep (or soul-extinction) model?
---Cluny on 9/4/10


cluny: "I simply told you what He will do, and you rejected sound doctrine."

Sorry, cluny, but sound doctrine is NOT what you told me, but rather what the Bible tells me. The Bible says:

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where am, there ye may be also.

If I were already with Jesus in heaven, why would He need to came again and receive me unto Himself to take me to where He was???

Sound doctrine indeed!
---jerry6593 on 9/4/10


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\\Like I said before, what god wold hold juveniles responsible for bringing the downfall of mankind ,due to not fully understanding the consequences of their action???\\

You're not getting it, are you?

God was not holding out punishment, but merely saying what the result of Adam's sin was.

It's the same way a mother will tell her child, "Don't stick your finger in the light socket. You will hurt yourself."

So, when the child sticks his finger in the light socket and gets a shock, did the mother punish her child by electricity? Or was she warning him of the consequences?
---Cluny on 9/4/10


Cluny, I read (excerpts) St.Symion's "First Created Man" and he said "Adam and eve were created as innocent CHILDREN"
Like I said before, what god wold hold juveniles responsible for bringing the downfall of mankind ,due to not fully understanding the consequences of their action???
This is absurd!
One of God's atributes is "justice".
That would not be "just"!
---1st_cliff on 9/3/10


BTW. St. Symeon's homilies on the Sin of Adam are available on line for free from several sites.
---Cluny on 9/3/10


Does not God's state" behold I make all things new" in the Bible?
---mima on 9/3/10


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To clarify and expand on what I said, WE will need our restored bodies to be complete human persons.
---Cluny on 9/3/10


\\Are you saying that God needs our rotted, burned, destroyed bodies to make us whole? If He can speak matter into existence on earth, why can't He do it in heaven? \\

God doesn't NEED anything.

I simply told you what He will do, and you rejected sound doctrine.
---Cluny on 9/3/10


cluny: "To raise our bodies from the dead and reunite them with our souls, so we will be whole (but glorified) human persons again."

Are you saying that God needs our rotted, burned, destroyed bodies to make us whole? If He can speak matter into existence on earth, why can't He do it in heaven?

The fact of the matter is that we are not in heaven, but asleep in the grave on earth. That is the only way this scripture makes any sense.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where am, there ye may be also.
---jerry6593 on 9/3/10


\\I would like to see the definition of "undeveloped innocence" according to Orthodox teaching.\\

Read THE SIN OF ADAM by St. Symeon the New Theologian.

As I have said about other Orthodox teachings, this is strong meat for many of the spiritually immature people here, especially those who don't even yet believe that Jesus is God Incarnate.
---Cluny on 9/2/10


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Cluny,Mom used to say "You can't put an old head on young shoulders" Even our laws differentiate between adults and youths!

I would like to see the definition of "undeveloped innocence" according to Orthodox teaching.

To give the command to obey or die would necessitate "full understanding" even in primative cultires!
---1st_cliff on 9/2/10


\\Cluny, You were equating the innocence of A & E with that of babes who had not reached their potential 8/29/10 therefore not mature enough to grasp the meaning of God's command!\\

No, I didn't.

Undeveloped innocence is not the same thing as infancy.

Nor is it the same thing as maturity.
---Cluny on 9/2/10


Jesus has a specific role and that is to deal with the evil of the devil his hosts and mankind that disbelieved and that can only be done in the manner revealed.

What is wrong with the King of Kings and Lord of Lords coming back in full glory to put to shame all those who disgraced him and did not believe who he was?

Can't think of a more spectacular and Glorious Display when the saviour returns to repatriate those who have been faithful, what a wonderful moment that will be, I pray I will be privileged to be a part of this
''wouldn't you''
---Carla on 9/2/10


Cluny, You were equating the innocence of A & E with that of babes who had not reached their potential 8/29/10 therefore not mature enough to grasp the meaning of God's command!
In other words God held them responsible for something they did not fully comprehend!
You said this is what "Orthodoxy" teaches,right?
---1st_cliff on 9/2/10


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\\A mistake by "babes", who never understood, caused the downfall of man??\\

Please tell me where and when I said that Adam and Eve were babes.

Quote my exact words, please.
---Cluny on 9/1/10


Cluny:You're saying that God gave A & E a command that they never fully understood,but held them accountable to it??
Where's the justice in that idea?
A mistake by "babes", who never understood, caused the downfall of man??
What kind of god pulls a stunt like that??
---1st_cliff on 9/1/10


\\Cluny, "Orthodoxy teaches that Adam and Eve were created in an undeveloped state of innocence"
That's philosophy not truthy\\

Philosophy means "love of wisdom", so this is truth.

**truth is that they were mature enough to understand that their action would be their demise!**

No, they weren't. That's the whole thing. Angels knew the consequences of their rebellion. Adam and Eve didn't.

\\"Good" meant perfect..Jesus said "There's none "good" but God"\\

Make up your mind. YOu seem to be contradicting yourself about equating "good" and "perfect"--a distinction the Bible itself makes.
---Cluny on 9/1/10


Cluny, "Orthodoxy teaches that Adam and Eve were created in an undeveloped state of innocence"
That's philosophy not truth..truth is that they were mature enough to understand that their action would be their demise!
"Good" meant perfect..Jesus said "There's none "good" but God"
---1st_cliff on 9/1/10


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\\You err,
---Cluny on 8/30/10
I did not err at all
---francis on 8/30/10\\

Maybe not according to the half-way Karite Judaism you practice.

But you do if you're talking about Christianity.
---Cluny on 8/30/10


You err,
---Cluny on 8/30/10
I did not err at all
---francis on 8/30/10


\\How can you possible say that the ultimate goal is not living with christ?
What would heaven be, what would eternal life be, what would salvation be, without christ in it?\\

Did you even read all of what I said, francis?

It's not simply "being with Christ," in a static sense, but dynamic--growing more and more like Him in the next world, without the things in this world to distract us from it.

Did you think we'd simply be frozen at the same spiritual level?
---Cluny on 8/30/10


CLUNY what are you doing?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

How can you possible say that the ultimate goal is not living with christ?
What would heaven be, what would eternal life be, what would salvation be, without christ in it?
---francis on 8/30/10


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\\If being with Christ is the best and untimate goal, why take the dead from glory and bring them back to the sin, and sick and pailful world?
---francis on 8/30/10\\

You err, knowing neither the scriptures nor the power of God.

The ULTIMATE goal is having our souls rejoined with glorified bodies and continuing our theosis in the world to come.

Even in the next world, our lives are not static, but dynamic.

But this is strong meat that a lot of people, such as those who try to live under Jewish law, are not ready for.
---Cluny on 8/30/10


Why would Jesus come back for us if we go to heaven when we die?

And to add to that, why would the apostles be raising people from the dead who are already with Christ?

If being with Christ is the best and untimate goal, why take the dead from glory and bring them back to the sin, and sick and pailful world?
---francis on 8/30/10


\\It is my firm belief, based upon Scriptural and historical evidence, that Christ Yeshua already returned on or about 70 A.D.\\

And nobody noticed? What happened to "Every eye shall see Him?"

**Cluny, Define "glorified human" and scripture that says so!**

See 1 Cor 15 about "this mortal putting on immortality"--about how "we shall be changed."

**This is what God purposed ,he pronounced it "good" You're saying it was not good enough?**

Good is not the same thing as perfect. Orthodoxy teaches that Adam and Eve were created in a state of undeveloped innocence. A baby is "perfect" as far as he goes--but he's not what he will grow into.
---Cluny on 8/29/10


Jerry, that is a very insightful question!

The truth is that before Christ's resurrection, no one went to Heaven. Those who were faithful when they died went to "Abraham's bossom" while those that died in "sin" went to "Hell". Think of both these places as a "holding tank" for souls, if you like.

Notice that Christ Yeshua went to preach to these people in the nether regions immediately after his death on the cross.

It is my firm belief, based upon Scriptural and historical evidence, that Christ Yeshua already returned on or about 70 A.D.
---Higgins on 8/28/10


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Higgins' reply to Jerry (Part 2)

It is then said, in the New Testament, that blessed are those that die in Christ from now on, referring to the fact that Christ had prepared a place for us in Heaven sometime between His death and Resurrection on or about 30 A.D. and His Second Coming on or about A.D. 70 (just prior to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple).

Now those who have died in Christ since A.D. 70 no longer have to wait in "Abraham's bossom", because Christ has already prepared a place for us in His Heavenly Kingdom, but had not even began His Heavenly construction campaign during the time of His ministry on earth or even at the time of the writings of the Gospels.
---Higgins on 8/28/10


Higgins' reply to Jerry (Part 3)

So, to bluntly answer your question, Jerry, Christ came back already and took those who had died victoriously in Christ. Those generations after Christ's return in A.D. 70 have no need of a resurrection because they can go straight to their reward, whereas those in earlier years had to wait until a place had been prepared for them.

Indeed, most Christians and churches do not understand Scriptural and historical fact. They look at one side of the coin and neglect the other completely, which leads to misunderstandings and poor scholarship.

You, however, noticed a contradiction between popular doctrine and Scripture and placed it under the microscope. Thank You!
---Higgins on 8/29/10


Cluny, Define "glorified human" and scripture that says so!
Adam was "perfect" enough to live forever (had he not sinned)and be fruitful and fill the earth and have dominion over the animals .
This is what God purposed ,he pronounced it "good" You're saying it was not good enough?
---1st_cliff on 8/29/10


So many Scriptures. Jesus wants to give us a new body. A body like His. Over in Phil. 3:21...Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body. Now, on with the spirit of man....His body will soon dissolved into dust, and his spirit, or the breath of his life, will return unto the God who originally gave it [Ecc. 12:7]....That is, if you are saved. If you are lost your spirit goes to hell. Spirit>>[the inner man].
---catherine on 8/29/10


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"Why would Jesus come back for us if we go to heaven when we die?"
Jesus does not "come back for us", He 'physically' comes back to us.
---joseph on 8/28/10


God created man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul.
Note:God did not put a soul into man,
At death the body returns to the dust and the Spirit (or breath of life) returns to God.
Note: the Bible does not say that the soul returns to God.
There follow two resurrections:
1. Those asleep in Jesus rise at His 2nd coming and are joined by those alive in Jesus. Together they receive their reward and are lifted up to meet their Savior, after putting on immortality.
Note: The 2nd resurection is not important for this question.
---Pierre on 8/28/10


To raise our bodies from the dead and reunite them with our souls, so we will be whole (but glorified) human persons again.
---Cluny on 8/28/10


Because this is false teaching of us going to heaven immediatly. Look at John 3:13. It says no one but Jesus came from or went to heaven. Until the ressurection we will "sleep" in our graves. God breathed life (a.k.a. souls) into us, he takes away. too many people are relying on old time traditions instead of reading the scriptures for what they are.
thankyou for asking this question.. maybe some eyes wil lbe opened to the truth that no one today is in heaven until the ressurection.Also some will be in heaven & most wil lreside with Jesus on the new Earth. No I am not a Jehovah's Witness. Yes I do believe in New heavens & a NEW Earth.
---Candice on 8/28/10


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