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Who Was John Calvin

First, what do you know about John Calvin as a person, his behavior, character and life... Second, what do you know about the 5 points of Calvin? Please explain why you believe in it or do not believe in it?

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Good for you Linda, the more they talk the more they reveal their stupidity.


To MAKE up a bogus Covenant of Grace that states Gods loves some and hates others, hand picks some to be saved and others to be lost, picks some to mercy and hand picks others to wrath.

WHERE in the Scriptures is such a Covenant? Their ain't none!!!

Johan the calvinist said in his anger that he KNEW God was a merciful and forgiving God. AND that is what angered Johan... that God's mercy was extended to Gentiles..not God's CHOSEN ELECT Israel ONLY to begin with. That was my point which went over Markv and christian's arrogant heads, TWISTING the meaning of election to mean EXCLUDE!

What a Merciful, loving and forgiving God we have!
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


God has shown man enough mercy and revealed enough truth that man has no excuse.

Christan, your presupposition that you have been shown mercy and others have not is a vision problem. Elitism is a weight that will beset you. God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
---Linda on 10/28/10


MarkV and christian's doctrine say anyone God has mercy on is God's Elect. Now we know God had mercy on a city of Gentile People in the OT, Nineveh, of which we see God's mercy. According to Markv and Christin's doctrine, Nineveh too would be God's ELECT. YET we see nowhere God referring to Nineveh a gentile city as God's Elect. What confusion there must have been to God's TRUE ELECT Israel to now have Gentile City's become God's Elect. and Nineveh didn't even have to convert to Judaesm, or be joined together with them.

So now we have Israel mine Elect AND a Gentile City as God's Elect in the OT.

And LOOK, Nineveh repented of their own free will...

Yet 430 years later God destroyed Nineveh, His ELECT Gentile CITY!!
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


MarkV - it is true that we do not who God has chosen but He did tell us that "we will know them by their fruits". We do not judge these people but it is the Word of God that judges them for what they say.

In John 8:37-47, Christ came up against the children of the devil whom we now know that it was God who created them. This clearly goes against their doctrine that God wants to save everybody and their rejection of sovereign election which is so clearly defined in the Scripture.

But alas, Christ declared, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." So unless God shows mercy and grace like He did to us, we continue to witness this Truth.
---christan on 10/28/10


So I see that "hyper-Calvinist" word is being used more now, please re-read my two posts on 10/25/10 carefully.

The two posts basically ignored on 10/25, concerning that the Geneva Bible was directly Translated out of Greek by Theodore Beza... and also that the KJV translators used Theodore Beza's Greek New Testament for the 1611 KJV. All the while free will KJV-onlyites ironically complain that Theodore Beza was too hyper-Calvinist? It was only brushed aside.


What else can I say?

I'll humbly continue to read the faithful translation of the 1560 Geneva Bible (and the 1602 Geneva New Testament which has the complete original 1599 Geneva notes). Excellent study Bible.
---Kev on 10/28/10




Kev, sorry but John Calvin was a murderer. Don't just read church history, but read all history. Look at all view points.
God tells us in scripture that murderers are not part of him and will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Any doctrine that comes from a murderer is NOT inspired by the Spirit of God, it comes from the father of lies.
JackB, awesome scripture, posts, and sure I'll do the phone thing if it will help, lol

Kath, keep striving sister and telling the truth, you too, Linda.

Alan thank you for the defense and your good eyes!
---ginger on 10/28/10


The elect are already chosen? If they have not yet believed, "it isn't their turn"? If this be true, then why teach since the elect will be saved regardless? Do you, as you so accuse us, suppose to add anything to God's will or timing for any individual by feeding them your gnosis? It would be difficult at best to accept the teaching of anyone whose very effort to convince denies the fundamental structure of the doctrine he teaches....and whose spiritual discernment is such that false accusations are made and members of the body are called dogs and swine. Even the little dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their MASTER'S table. I would take the unleavened crumb of simplicity anyday over a whole loaf leavened with human reasoning.
---LindaS on 10/28/10


Christian, I want to thank you, James L, and others who have posted for the Sovereignty of God and His rights to be Ruler not a spectator in the events of life. I have been at it from the start and though I'm attack personally, it gives me joy to fight for the Truth of the Gospel. In the process they make God impotent, and man "omnipotent." They do not realize that the more they talk, the more they defend the clay over the Potter. And if you notice it is mostly opinions and anger statements with no proof that the will is free. They put Scripture down with wrong meanings to sound religious. My suggestion is don't give up, many are starting to believe the Scriptures given to them.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10


Christian 2: We have no clue whom God wants to reveal the Truth to, so all we can do is present it and let God take over from there. Donna66, you have also done great together with so many others. Thank you also from the bottom of my heart. It does take courage to speak for God. And we know many will hate us for it. It has always been that way. But many have a passion to learn and they will know the Truth and the Truth will set them free. That is Christ. Keep up the good work in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ who tells us, "only His sheep hear His voice" only those who can hear, hear, and only those that can see, see. God is Omnipotent and never stops being Omnipotent for no one. He is immutable and never changes.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10


Amen to that, Linda.

And, Christan, every denomination out there can try to use condemning scriptures to instill fear in those who disagree with them in an attempt to persuade them. Thats how cults are formed.

Its amazing to me that you guys teach election of individuals to salvation before the foundation of the world and yet try to put filter OUT who God chose because people dont see eye to eye with you.

Did denomination have ANYTHING to do with Gods decision? Its like yall dont even apply your own doctrine.

What is important is that we all agree who Jesus Christ is and that we trust Him as our Lord and Savior.
---JackB on 10/27/10




Church doctrine is a carnal argument and you hyper-Calvinists prove that by not being able to look past a man's denomination that you are still indeed babes in Christ. Not the spiritual leaders that you think you are.

This is the biggest contradiction to your doctrine and you especially MarkV are guilty of it:

You said yourself that you were a believer 8 years before you became a Calvinist. But yet you want to judge others because they dont agree with what you say even though we have given scripture against it. If you had died in those first 8 years would you have gone to be with your Lord and Savior?

Do the 'elect' all have to be Calvinists? Are the 'elect' ONLY Calvinists?
---JackB on 10/27/10


Christan, neither Jack, Kathr, nor I have called you or Mark unsaved (dogs) or unclean (swine). For you to
in-SIN-u-ate that we are because we don't ascribe to your doctrine is at the very least Gnostic and at the very most a testimony to the absence of spiritual discernment on your part.
---Linda on 10/27/10


kath4453 The Galatians obviously did not lose their salvation and get saved AGAIN. However they fell. from your post of 10/27

Hey, maybe we DO agree on something after all! (Or did I misunderstand you?) Arminians are the ones that worry about people "losing" their salvation. Calvinists maintain that the believer is eternally secure, thus has no need to get "saved" again. The believer may stumble, is certainly not immune to sin, but their eternal salvation is not in jeopardy.
No one is saved, then lost, then "saved" again
---Donna66 on 10/27/10


Linda S All that is no use whatsoever, if, as MarkV insists, God only allows His chosen to repsond to it all.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/27/10


How much more do you want God to do to make Himself known?

He has revealed Himself to the unbelieving through:
1) the wrath of God revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
2) the conscience of man
3) the creation - the invisible things of Him are understood by the things He made, even His eternal power and Godhead
4) He has given to every man the measure of faith
5) He gave His only Son, who lived a perfect life, died a perfect death to take away sin, and rose again to give us His perfect life.
---Linda on 10/27/10


6) He sent the Holy Spirit to convict man of the sin of unbelief
7) The Holy Spirit empowers the gospel message through a believer to reveal the righteousness of God from the measure of faith to saving faith and confirms His Word with signs and wonders.

Again I ask:
What more do you need Him to do?
---LindaS on 10/27/10


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Children !!!

Slanderous lies??

Kathr has apologised for her mistake, which was a mistake, and not a slanderous lie.

"Then you again lie by insinuating that I said he did not have the Holy Spirit" Mark, really! What did she insinuate?

Mark ... you said replying to Mima's post, "The God of Scripture can only be known by those to whom He makes Himself known, and is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit" and Kathr asked "Is MarkV suggesting Mima is NOT indwelt by the Spirit?"

Hardly a lie!! Just a reasonable query.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/27/10


To my brother in Christ - MarkV, it is seriously pointless to continue our replies to kathr, Linda, JackB...

Christ has told us, "Do not give what is holy to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." (Matthew 7:6)

Our duty as Christians is simply to go forth and be witnesses and testify the Truth. For such, Christ tells us, "And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!" (Matthew 10:14,15)
---christan on 10/27/10


Iohn Caluin was a Christian man that preached the Gospel, truly. He was no murderer. As many anti-Calvinists do love to taunt Protestants by the means of this. Let me share a fact that most people do not know.

Fact: Those who defend KJV-onlyism admit that the KJV translators used Robert Stephani's Greek New Testament (1550,1551) and Theodore Beza's Greek New Testament (1598). Interestingly, Robert Stephani also published Iohn Caluin's book, The Institution of the Christian Religion in Geneva (1559). Even more, Theodore Beza was Caluin's successor.

Robert Stephani, Iohn Caluin, and Theodore Beza... wow! they were all friends and they preached Christ only. It's one Gospel.
---Kev on 10/27/10


//The God of Scripture can only be known by those to whom He makes Himself known, and is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit//
---Mark_V

Interesting quotes from:
The Book of MarkV.

Sounds High and Lofty doesn it?? spoken like a true Gnostic!!!

MarkV, for you to make such a statement about GOD, please back that up with 3 scriptures.


Where is Jesus Christ THE WORD of God in all of this??

Scripture tells us:

God makes Himself known to those who have received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, as Jesus through His death and resurrection life ALONE opened the way to GOD for us.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10


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JackB, I have posted that very passage of Scripture many times in response to the claim that God has to do something else to reveal Himself to man. It goes either overlooked or ignored. Also, in the very same passage that talks about God not willing for any to perish, it also talks about the scoffers who are WILLINGLY ignorant. The Greek definition is the same for willingly in verse 5 and will in verse 9. These scoffers have chosen not to retain the knowledge of God given by God nor to use the God given measure of faith to believe the gospel unto saving faith. For the willingly ignorant, God makes sure they know its not His choice they made. Jesus is the light that lights every man who comes into the world.
---Linda on 10/27/10


//The God of Scripture can only be known by those to whom He makes Himself known, and is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit//
---Mark_V

Everyone knows who God is. Nice try, Mark.

Romans 1:18-20

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse:
---JackB on 10/27/10


Kathr, like always, you were giving another slanderous lie. Nothing new coming from you. Then you again lie by insinuating that I said he did not have the Holy Spirit. I never talked about his salvation, only his comments. Just more lies.
Third, of course I know about casino's, I'm not stupid as you might think. It is common knowledge they have camera's everywhere and watch every area. And common knowledge that if the employees are not doing their jobs and forming circles inside they would get fired. And common sense that if they are speaking in tongues, the employees must be from other nations not able to speak English. You got an amen from ginger, who thinks just like you, you forgot jack.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/10


This could be easily settled and it would prove those those that think we are the same person that they are under a spirit of delusion.

I would be happy to give my cell phone number to anyone to wishes to speak with me. If Ginger and Kathr would be willing to do the same if would end this nonsense. At least would end it if these men of God could admit they were wrong for bearing false witness against us.

Are we given an email address when we sign up to this website? I honestly dont know if its against the rules for me to post my personal email address here.
---JackB on 10/27/10


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These accusations of me being Kathr and whoever else is nothing more than a final effort to deny the truth that is pricking them in their hearts right now.

Defense lawyers do the same thing when they know their clients are guilty, their case is in danger of being lost and they are in desperate need of something to use against the witnesses who saw the crime.

Are you sure you are Gods side by accusing us of something that isnt true just to discredit us?

Are you an "accuser of the brethren"?
---JackB on 10/27/10


For what was it that moved Him to predestine His elect to the praise of the glory of His grace? It was, as Eph. 1:5 tells us, "According to the good pleasure of His will"
The God of Scripture can only be known by those to whom He makes Himself known, and is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/10

MarkV, why do you not quote ALL of Ephesians 1 EXACTLY as Paul wrote, and stop cherry picking a word here and there pasting together an entirely new verse not found in scripture.

Why don't you read the WHOLE and then come to the answer of WHY!! AND what PROOF do you have YOU are one HE elected?

Anyone can claim they are the chosen few. The JW's do too. Only 144,000 saved in that group!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10


Mima, I know I have not agreed with some of your views lately, which is probably why you stop writing me, but I will not agree with you on everything. I might agree on some, and will say so, but not on some others, like preaching the gospel in groups inside a Casino and in tongues, they do not allow groups to teach the gospel inside a Casino especially if employees you are preaching to work there, or in tongues unless those people are from another country and you know their language. Also, in order to be indwelled by the Spirit, you need to be born of the Spirit by God. -----MarkV. on 10/26/10

Sorry, I meant Casino's. Is MarkV suggesting mima is NOT indwelt by the Spirit? So YOU know all about Casino's and what goes on inside?
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10


I never told Mima not to witness in bars, just another slanderous lie, like all the rest. Lies after lies. Only angry opinions with no answer to Scripture. If you knew Calvin teachings, you would know the God of Scripture and not be stripping God of His deity with your false teachings that God is obligated to man.
For what was it that moved Him to predestine His elect to the praise of the glory of His grace? It was, as Eph. 1:5 tells us, "According to the good pleasure of His will"
The God of Scripture can only be known by those to whom He makes Himself known, and is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/10


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Great scripture Kath!
I take it as a complement also...where 2 or 3 are gathered, touching and agreeing God is there in the midst, Amen! Even over the internet. God is good all the time.

MarkV, you are just upset because you have been found out and you just can't stand it.
Donna66, I apologize if I sounded harsh but I really don't like being told who you think I am. I am not Kath or Jack.

Just because we say similar things doesn't make us the same person.
We just happen to study the Bible and follow after the Holy Spirit, not a man or a woman.

Human doctrines are what make us not right with God. I prefer the narrow gate(Jesus) not the wide (some of you are following and don't even see,)thank you!
---ginger on 10/27/10


Well Thank you BOB, that same Spirit is the Holy Spirit! God bless you., we ARE one BODY , our Head is Jesus Christ...not Calvin, ONE MIND and HIS MIND flows down to ours!!!


Donna66, continued. The Galatians obviously did not lose their salvation and get saved AGAIN. However they fell.

What I see as so arrogant with Calvinism is that they EXCUSE themselves from all the warnings! After all, if they do fall, it's because it was God's plan and purpose they do, FOR HIS GLORY they say! That is just garbage. Calvinism takes NO responsibility for their own actions, words, sin behavior or lost souls THEY are COMMANDED to witness to!!! MarkV telling mima it not right to witness to SINNERS in bars etc. Spoken like a true pharisee!
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10


I caught Kathr using another name before and now I too know she is again using other names. My wife also saw that the same words are spoken by all three. And let me say it is the same spirit working in all three.
---Bob on 10/27/10


Conservative Christians generally divide themselves into two opposing camps, the Calvinists and the Arminians. It's an argument as old as the Reformation. DONNA66

As old as the reformation, but never heard of BEFORE THEN!!!

Unfortunately ignorant Calvinists believe those who oppose Calvinism are Arminians..WRONG!!! You can be NEITHER!

The P is also false. Why, because the P rests upon the TULI and it's false assumptions .

WE(Christians) ARE WARNED about false teachers. WE CAN fall from Grace, shipwreck our faith. We may lose our rewards, but not our eternal life! Arminians believe one then loses their salvation.

The Galatians fell from Grace, but Heb 6 states it's IMPOSSIBLE to get saved twice.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10


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JackB and ginger, I don't mind being accused of being you all...actually it does prove one thing. Scripture tells us we are to say the same things..as we do.

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

2 Corinthians 4:13
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken, we also believe, and therefore speak,

Keep up the good work!!!

WE defend the CROSS...they defend a murderer who knew no CROSS!
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10


Donna66, I'm glad that you caught on to how far these people will go when they have the wrong Truth. Trying to deceive others is common to those who do not want to hear about the Awesomeness of God. As soon as they hear that God is in control, they turn over at night planning on what they will say to you for just mentioning the Ruler of this world. Nothing new that I see.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/10


I know right, Jack

Just because we all agree we are supposed to be each other?
Next thing you know someone will say I am you, lol.

I wish they would do the research on what they are basing their belief upon.
Is it truly the entire word of God in its context or is it highly influenced by what a man is telling them to believe?

John Calvin was a bad man. The sad part is he got part of that cruelty from the RCC that created him and he so vehemently stood completely against. He leans to one side while RCC the other. The truth is actually somewhere in the middle...the narrow gate and straight road that is hard to find.
Thats is something they need to truly think about and ponder upon.
---ginger on 10/27/10


ginger:

Not only do the original scriptures not have any "thees" and "thous", they don't have ANY English words in them at all!

Those are used in English, because in Hebrew and Greek, there are separate words for singular and plural "you", as in King James's day (i.e. "thou" and "you") but which have disappeared in modern English. So such words preserve distinctions lost by just using "you" for both. Far from altering what the scriptures mean, they PRESERVE what the scriptures mean.

Also, in Hebrew, masculine and feminine forms are also different for "thou", "you", and "they", even though English loses those distinctions as well.
---StrongAxe on 10/27/10


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//Ginger--- Does kath4453 have you writing posts for her lately?//-Donna66

Dont forget that Im Kathr too ya know.

Poor ol Kath just gets accused of being everyone lol
---JackB on 10/27/10


No, Donna66, Kath does not have me writing her posts for her.
I happen to know for myself who and what John Calvin was. I did the research. I refuse to follow any man's(includes women) teaching without checking it out biblically and historically. The only thing true in TULIP is the "P".
Any religion built on murder(sin), is not from God.
Kev, I asked you to refrain from posting like that because people can't read your post, understand them or answer you back.
Being Christian means putting others before yourself not lifting murderers up as people we should follow.
The fruit produced by John Calvin was bad fruit. Bad fruit doesn't come from a good tree, only bad fruit. Thats how we know biblically he was bad.
---ginger on 10/27/10


By the way Kev, do you understand that the original manuscripts of the Bible have NO "thee's" "thou's", or "thy's" in it?
Do you understand why they put these words in there? Do you understand that they alter what the scriptures mean?
That means they injected what they believe when they copied the manuscripts. It is better to go straight to the hebrew/greek. Though some is in aramaic. When you seek the truth you shall find. When you find the truth you will find that what you believe and what God said is completely different.
I also recommend reading the Bible as it was first written- without verse numbers. You learn true context of everything that is said to us.
---ginger on 10/27/10


Conservative Christians generally divide themselves into two opposing camps, the Calvinists and the Arminians. It's an argument as old as the Reformation.

Calvinists are divided into three groups: the extreme Hyper-Calvinist, the Five Point Calvinists and the Moderate Calvinists. The Hyper and Five Point Calvinists hold to the five points of Calvinism,

T - Total depravity of man.
U - Unconditional election.
L - Limited atonement.
I - Irresistible grace.
P - Perseverance of the saints.

Moderate Calvinists (the largest group) may accept one or more of these five points, but not all. The Hyper, and Five Point Calvinist teaching of limited atonement is generally rejected by the Moderates.
---Donna66 on 10/26/10


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I'm only being exact with the 16th Century English. It was spelled exactly Iohn Caluin.

In 16th Century Latin, Iohanne Calvino.

The thing is, William Tyndale taught exactly the same as Iohn Caluin concerning the Gospel, predestination, civil magistrates & c. I lament that very few Christians see this glorious truth.

William Tyndale truly had the spirit of Christ in him, translated the Bible, and was martyred for his faith.

I only look at William Tyndale and Iohn Caluin as examples. What did they preach? Trust in Iesus Christ only.

(Underlined s, long s)
---Kev on 10/26/10


As pertaining to good deeds therefore, do the best thou canst and desire God to giue strength to do better daily, but in Christ put thy trust and in the pardon and promises that God hath made thee for his sake, and on that rock build thine house and there dwell. For there only shalt thou be sure from all storms and tempests and from all wily assaults of our wicked spirits which study with all falsehood to undermine vs. And the God of all mercy giue thee grace so to do, vnto whom be glory for euer. Amen. (From William Tyndales book, The Obedience of a Christian man)
---Kev on 10/26/10


//No MarkV it is you who gets mad when your false witness is exposed
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/26/10 //

Or you totally ignore the people who have exposed you.
---JackB on 10/26/10


One thing about Christianity...you are CHANGED.
There was NO CHANGE in Calvin. On his death bed, Calvin recanted limited atonement and hoped to be found under the shadow of Christ, praying Christ's blood. ODD seeing that is the beginning of our salvation, not something we say at the end. And too, we are not under Christ's shadow, but IN CHRIST a New Creature.

I've known with Calvin and his teaching, he never saw himself crucified with Christ and raised a New creature having all sin put away.

And none of the points are found anywhere in scripture, unless one manipulates. It appeals to the intellectual mind not the faith of the most simple.

One must STUDY what atonement means to see it is impossible to limit it.

---kathr4453 on 10/26/10


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Ginger--- Does kath4453 have you writing posts for her lately? What you respond to MarkV has the same "tone" as her comments to him. Any mention of "Calvin" or "Calvinisn" is a hot button for her, but I haven't seen her response here.
---Donna66 on 10/26/10


2 Peter 2.9 .. "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (KJV)

Does that really mean as MarkV suggests that God does not want us all to be saved, that He actually decides that he is not going to offer His love to the majority of the human race?

And then punish them for not accepting His love, which He never really offered in the first place?
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/26/10


MarkV Yet again you totally misrepresent those who disagree with you.

"the same people who claim that God cannot do anything unless man permits Him ... " No-one here has ever said that.

You say Peter & Paul etc "taught of God as Sovereign Ruler on the Throne" ... Quite right & all here accept that ... our God is mighty and gracious enough to allow freewill.

"They (Peter & Paul) never taught that God was obligated to man in anyway or form" Nor has anyone here suggested that.

"They get mad because we tell them" No MarkV it is you who gets mad when your false witness is exposed
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/26/10


MarkV,
Try not to put all your eggs in one basket.
No one on this site has ever said anything in protest to the God of the Bible. Anytime anyone has given scripture to you, you call them a liar and argue with God's word. My suggestion to you is to point that finger at yourself only and run your race with patience.
Oh, and stop committing the sin of false witness. It seems there are very few on here who support your view of Calvinism. If they disagree with you they are the ones in sin. That says a lot to me.
The God of the Bible IS Love- AGAPE!
The God you serve is not that if me reading any of your posts is a judge of what Kind of God you serve.
---ginger on 10/26/10


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Frank, the same people who claim that God cannot do anything unless man permits Him are the same people who do not know the God of Scripture. They get mad because we tell them. And fight with every fiber in that carnal mind which continues to be at enmity against God. The twisting of Scripture meaning goes on all the time, why? because they do not understand. Chapter 1,2 and 3 of 2 Peter speak about those people that I mentioned to Micha. "But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed" listen to this? (made to be caught and destroyed.) "speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, and will receive the wages of unrighteousness"
---MarkV. on 10/26/10


Frank 2: you hear them say that it rubs them hard when someone follows the teachings of Calvin, they suppose his teachings are different then Christ. They same teachings of Paul, Peter, John and the Apostles. For they also taught of God as Sovereign Ruler on the Throne. They never taught that God was obligated to man in anyway or form. Is 2 Peter 3:9 talking about God not willing that any single person perish? Not at all. For Peter had already spoken of those who were going to be judge. If God was willing that none of those perish, why were they going to perish? Because they were brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed. They rejected the Truth about God, and the only conclusion is they have the wrong gospel.
---MarkV. on 10/26/10


I understand Kev, but you can put here in plain English..no offense
I utilize more than just one Bible and research the root of what is being said to us by God through his word..Study to show yourself approved.

I don't agree with the 5 points because they don't correctly describe what happens to us when we are saved by Christ. AND the Bible says God's grace is irresistable. He does not force us. He comes to us and asks us to follow him. The 5 say God created some destined for hell when that is not biblical either.
I try not to utilize just verses in the Bible. It was not originally written that way and if you read it with verses in mind you miss the context of what God is really telling us.
---ginger on 10/26/10


The KJV was translated from Theodore Beza's Greek New Testament by Anglican translators, but I must stay away from Theodore Beza's teachings according to free will KJV-onlyites. That makes no sense.

That's why I directly read the Geneva Bible, which was Translated out of Greek by Theodore Beza.

The Pilgrims and Puritans did too.

North America was truly Christian in the 1600s.
---Kev on 10/25/10


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Im tellin ya it just rubs me the wrong way to see Christians praising a man instead of Christ. Even to the point that they would follow the teachings of the man over their own Savior.
---JackB on 10/26/10


Kev, can you PLEASE stop typing like that? It is NOT the Current English language and it is very difficult to read, thank you!

Ok, back to subject, John Calvin was...a murderer.
Anyone who disagreed with what He taught got axed.
That makes him NO different than the RCC back in his day.

God says we shall KNOW if a man is part of HIM by what he says and what he does. If I use the WORD of God as a measuring stick like we are supposed to, that makes John Calvin a wolf in sheeps clothing.
---ginger on 10/26/10


John Calvin was a man just like all others are, not perfect, and also a Catholic who opposed many of their views. The five points of Calvinism were not created by him. They were five points that answered the five points that were produced by the heretic followers of James Arminius. The Arminians objected to those doctrines upheld in both the catechism and the Confession relationg to divine sovereignty, human inability, unconditional election, particular redemption, irresistible grace, and the preserverance of the saints. I believe in the doctrines, not only because God is sovereign and not the one people display, but because God tells us through His Word He is sovereign always. And His nature, character and attributes never change.
---MarkV. on 10/26/10


Iohn Caluin was a wonderful Bible teacher. In fact, Robert Estienne (also known as Roberti Stephani) not only printed the Greek New Testament (1546, 1549, 1550, and 1551 the last in Geneva), he also printed Iohn Caluin's book, Institvtio Christianae Religionis (that is, The Institution of the Christian Religion) in Geneva (1559). Theodore Beza published the Greek New Testament in Geneva, and was a close friend of Iohn Caluin.

Indeed, one of the great ironies is that the free will KJV-onlyites admit their KJV was translated from Theodore Beza's Greek New Testament, all the while complaining that Theodore Beza was too "hyper-Calvinist."
---Kev on 10/25/10


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"But then Paul and JESUS would not feel welcomed in any Apostolic church." (Samuel)

Yes they would because they will find in Orthodoxy God's word being taught (all it right).

"First they would show up on the wrong day then take one look at the icons and charge what are those objects of Pagan worship doing there. "

No, you would. There is a difference. But Jesus Christ and the Apostles will tell you that Holy Icons were part of the liturgical services of the Old Testament Judaism and Early Christians generally did not object to having Christian icons.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/6/10


True Ignatius Luther would not feel welcomed in most of today's churches. But then Paul and JESUS would not feel welcomed in any Apostolic church.

First they would show up on the wrong day then take one look at the icons and charge what are those objects of Pagan worship doing there.

Actually JESUS could choose to be polite and simply try to explain from scripture what is truth. But then scripture as the judge of all truth is not accepted in many churches.
---Samuel on 9/6/10


Stuff like that is why Im glad God led people to translate the Bible.
---JackB on 9/5/10


Who is Paul then? and who is Apollos, but the ministers by whome ye beleued, & as the Lord gaue to euerie man? I haue planted, Apollos watred, but God gaue the encrease. (I Corinthians 3:5-7, 1560 Geneva Bible)


William Tyndale's New Testament, The Prologe To the Romaynes...

Furthermore set before thyne eyes Christes workes and thyne awne workes. Christes workes onlye justifye thee & make satisfaccion for thy sinne/ & thyne awne workes not: that is to saye/ quyeteth thy conscience/ & make thee sure that thy synnes are forgiven thee/ & not thyne awne workes. For the promyse of mercye is made thee for Christes workes sake/ & not for thyne awne workes sake.
---Kev on 9/4/10


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Ya know, I see a bunch of names of men in these responses... all sinners... all saved by the grace of God. None loved any more or any less than ANY other man.

We dont need men to explain Gods word to us. We have the SPirit of the living Christ inside of us and He teaches us all things.

Stop following men. If they are wrong, they will lead you straight into hell. Never set a man upon a pedestal.

1 Cor 3:3,4
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul, and another, I am of Apollos, are ye not carnal?
---JackB on 9/4/10


1509-64>>>A French Thelogian who spread the protestant reformation in France and Switzerland, where he established a strict Cont
---catherine on 9/4/10


Presbyterian government in Geneva. Calvin taught that it was the right and the duty of the state to aid the church, Cont
---catherine on 9/4/10


//The odd thing is, most Protestants do NOT follow the Reformers' advice about piety (by which I mean practical Christian spiritual life).

For example, Jean Chauvin (to give his real name) insisted on weekly communion and the importance of infant baptism.// (Cluny)

Oh, I admit it. Protestants for the most part (if not entirely) have been bombarded with unfaithful teachers that want to flirt with ecumenical movement & c. John Foxe prayed, ''Lorde, Reforme thy Church with perfect doctrine and faithfull teachers.''

There are also many Christians who are Protestants at heart, but have been seduced by Baptists.

The Baptists have lied greatly by saying they go back to John the Baptist while relying on the Anglican's KJV.
---Kev on 9/4/10


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"First we read how that God stirred vp Gildas to preach to the old Brittaines, and to exhorte them vnto repentance" (Kev)

Are you talking about Saint Gildas? In any case, if you study Early Church history and Brittan's history, you would know that Orthodoxy has been there since Apostolic time! Apostle Peter, Apostle Aristobulus, ("Apostle of Birtian"), and Apostle Simon all preached on the Island of Birtian. Later Saints have also visited the place.

Britian does have such a rich history of Eastern Orthodox Tradition, the Apostolic Faith.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/4/10


"For example, Jean Chauvin (to give his real name) insisted on weekly communion and the importance of infant baptism." (Cluny)

True. Protestants generally do not accept the majority of teachings set forth by Martin Luther or John Calvin. As Protestantism moved from the 15th century to 16-18th centuries, more and more aspects of the Apostolic Faith was dropped and new man-made traditions was added. That is why I said in another blog that Martin Luther wouldn't feel "at home" in any modern day Evangelical church.

Not only has Protestants moved away from the Apostolic Faith, but they also have moved away from the teachings/practices/and pity of the Reformers, their forefathers.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/4/10


"
Protestant piety is the true Apostolic Ancient piety.

Augustine, Gildas, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Theodore Beza all preached the doctrine of predestination. It's the same Gospel that Apostle Paul preached." (Kev)

The Bible does teach predestination, just not the version of John Calvin.

The consensus teaching of the Early Church Fathers does not support John Calvin views, thus it is not Apostolic!

Eastern Christianity (Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Ethiopian Orthodoxy, Syriac, Armenian, etc) has never taught what John Calvin taught.

Orthodoxy is the only true Apostolic piety.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/4/10


\\Protestant piety is the true Apostolic Ancient piety.\\

No, it isn't.

The odd thing is, most Protestants do NOT follow the Reformers' advice about piety (by which I mean practical Christian spiritual life).

For example, Jean Chauvin (to give his real name) insisted on weekly communion and the importance of infant baptism.
---Cluny on 9/4/10


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Protestant piety is the true Apostolic Ancient piety.

Augustine, Gildas, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Theodore Beza all preached the doctrine of predestination. It's the same Gospel that Apostle Paul preached.

The Geneva Bible translated out of Greek by Theodore Beza (New Testament 1576) and Theodore Beza's Greek New Testament is fully acceptable.

KJV-onlyites claim that the KJV was translated from Theodore Beza's Greek New Testament all the while hiding the fact that Theodore Beza supported John Calvin's actions in ''De haereticis a civili magistratu puniendis'' (1554).

First we read how that God stirred vp Gildas to preach to the old Brittaines, and to exhorte them vnto repentance
---Kev on 9/4/10


"If that really is true then the KJV's credibility collapses too. " (Kev)

The credibility have already collapse for two reasons:

1) It is not divinely inspired, nor did the translators thought so. It is a translation done by those who were liable to err (and they did). The same with Beza GNT.

2) The KJV Old Testament is based upon the Hebrew manuscripts, whereas Christ, the Holy Apostles, and the Early Christians prefer the Septuagint over the Hebrew text most of the time.

John Calvin and Theodore Beza, both reformers, does not have the final say in Orthodox dogmas/practices. They reflected Protestant piety, not (Apostolic) Ancient Christianity.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/3/10


This is a very great irony. Today, many KJV-onlyites teach ''free-will'', and are against the doctrine of predestination... and cannot bear to hear John Calvin's teachings. If anyone tries to show John Calvin's teachings, the free-will teachers shout, ''John Calvin murdered Servetus in 1553!''

If that really is true then the KJV's credibility collapses too. Seeing that, John Calvin is accused he murdered Servetus in 1553. One year later, Theodore Beza wrote ''De haereticis a civili magistratu puniendis'' (1554) which states John Calvin acted righteously concerning the case and trial of Servetus. (If John Calvin really did murder Servetus, and Theodore Beza supported him) then how can the KJV stand on Theodore Beza's Greek New Testament?
---Kev on 9/3/10


"T" is as in "total depravity", and 2 Timothy 3:13 says, "But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." So, if sinners can become "worse and worse", then scripturally it is right to understand that they are not already totally depraved.

But we have, "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5) This shows me are totally *dependent*.
---Bill_bila5659 on 9/3/10


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The difficulty with that Mark, is that it means that God made men evil, and made some to remain evil.
That means that He punishes them for being as He made them.

Disobedience when they behave as He has decreed?
Just Punishment for behaving as commanded?

Where did our notions of the meaning of the words "disobedience", "just" and "punishment" come from?

They must be Man's evil invention, and all our social conventions of justice must be false.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/2/10


Well, I have read some things in history, about him, but I know people can write things to look the way they want. So, I'm not sure I can really know how John Calvin really was as a person. And how someone is has a lot to do with what a person means by what a person teaches for doctrine. So, basically, now, I possibly have no way of really understanding what his "five points" really meant to him.

But the Bible says, "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21) All evil and good people have come "from the same lump", then, I would say. Are we going to use this to accuse God, or see how much we need to depend on Him?
---Bill_bila5659 on 9/2/10


TULIP 5 points
T -- total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally, that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.

I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation, they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.
---willow on 9/2/10




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