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Martin Luther Loved Mary

If Martin Luther was the main champion of Sola Scriptura - scriptures alone, then why did he believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary and the intercession of saints? He even kept a diary of his prayers to the Virgin Mary.

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 ---leej on 9/8/10
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Cluny -Except for the fact, as Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ Himself said when referring to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that God is NOT the God of the dead, but of the living.

The fact is there is nothing in Scripture that holds we should or can pray to them as even in heaven, they do not have the attributes of God, espcially those of omnipresent, nor do they have the deep love for us that God has.

The above verse usually stops Adventists in their track as they believe the dead are simply asleep. (No such place as hell if the dead sleep).
---leej on 9/21/10


Unlike the Calvinists, Herr Luther did not push to remove statues as he believed they were unimportant, yet he rejected idolism. R.C. 'traditions' say idolatry is to give Divine worship to other than God, but the Bible is more specific. Exodus 20:4-5 and Leviticus 26:1 prohibits making idols of any kind, or bowing to it, including those said to represent God, Exodus 20:4-5, 32:4, 20, 34:17, Deuteronomy 4:12-28. God rebukes both those who use idols, and they who defend the practice, Isaiah 42:8, Ezekiel 14:1-10, Ephesians 5:5. Also, Acts 10:25-26, 14:14-15.
Vanity: Matthew 6:7, 15:9, 1Timothy 1:5-6.
---Glenn on 9/21/10


\\leej, //Some of these beliefs really border on spiritualism or more specifically necromancy - belief in speaking to dead spirits.//

Great observation.\\

Except for the fact, as Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ Himself said when referring to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that God is NOT the God of the dead, but of the living.
---Cluny on 9/21/10


leej, //Some of these beliefs really border on spiritualism or more specifically necromancy - belief in speaking to dead spirits.//

Great observation.
---Rod4Him on 9/20/10


//I talk to her like I talk to Jesus, like I talk to God, she is beautiful.//

This person may not speak for all Catholics, but it reveals how many, if not most Catholics believe.

Talk to Mary, like I talk to God??????

cluny...there's one for you.
---Rod4Him on 9/20/10




Mark.9

[4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
[5] And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
[6] For he wist not what to say, for they were sore afraid.
[7] And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
[8] And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
---toni on 9/20/10


Pedant, you did not read the context of the message to understand that when Matthew said, "vain repetition" he was describing what the heathens did. The heathens. Jesus is not a heathen either. When hypocrites were mentioned in the context, the example given in Matthew 6:5 was "You shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. They will have their reward" "Hypocrites" the word use here had its origins in Gr. theater, describing a character who wore a mask. The term used in the New T. normally described an unregenerate person who was self-deceived. And the reward they will receive is punishment.
---MarkV. on 9/21/10


What Luther was a champion of Sola scriptura, he applied it only to things in Roman Catholicism that he chose not to believe.

For instance, he believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary despite the fact that there are several scriptures that speak of the brothers & sisters of Jesus.

And he even kept a diary of his prayers to Mary believing that she was an intercessors. Fortunately, his followers chose not to continue in that belief.

No wbere in scripture is there a belief that those who have died can or will intercede for us.

Some of these beliefs really border on spiritualism or more specifically necromancy - belief in speaking to dead spirits.
---leej on 9/20/10


Mark //He told us not to do vain repition because the one's doing it were hypocrites//
That is a non sequitur.
Maybe you misundertand what 'vain' means. It does NOT mean vain as in vanity ... which WOULD be hypocritical
Vain repetition means repetition in vain, that is, ineffective. And you don't have to be hypocritical to do something that is useless.
And not all repetition is in vain, anyway
---Pedant on 9/20/10


John Calvin

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

Ulrich Zwingli:

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
---toni on 9/20/10




I love Mary too. I'm not catholic but I do pray the rosary. It has been one of the great'est blessings of my life.

I talk to her like I talk to Jesus, like I talk to God, she is beautiful.
---toni on 9/20/10


Ruben, your comparison between what God says us to not to do, "vain repetition" and what Jesus did are two very different cases. He told us not to do vain repition because the one's doing it were hypocrites. They were praying so that everyone could see how holy they were. Jesus was not a hypocrite, for He was without sin. And when He prayed He did it alone. So when you say Christ prayed the same manner, you made Him a hypocrite, is very wrong. You do not compare Christ with sinful people.
The prayer in Matthew 6:8-13 was a demonstration on what to include in your prayer when you prayed. Here the petition was a model, not merely a liturgy. Of the six petitions, 3 are directed to God (v. 9,10) and 3 towards human needs.
---MarkV. on 9/20/10


\\I said, "it "sounds" like you agree with Mary worship."\\

I know nobody who indulges in "Mary worship" in the sense of giving the Virgin Mary the LATREIA that belongs to God alone.

Do you? How many?
---Cluny on 9/19/10


When I questioned the repetitious worshipful prayers to Mary, your response was, //By the way had you stay on the program you would had listen to them say this prayer several times as well.//

I said, "it "sounds" like you agree with Mary worship." Apparently you weren't clear in what you meant, and I can't read your mind. All you need to do is clarify what you meant. BTW, you did not state your opinion of repeatedly saying prayers to Mary.

Granted, it's a challenge to accurately communicate what one means by what they say.
---Rod4Him on 9/19/10


Marian devotion and doctrines are ultimately about who JESUS is.

But what is the point in discussing these with people who don't even believe that our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ is true God and true man in one person--of the same nature (ousia/substantia) as the Father in His Divinity, and the same nature as ourselves in His humanity?
---Cluny on 9/19/10


\\Rod4Him * when Jesus prayed, He was asking, petitioning, "if the cup could pass?" \\

When Jesus made this request, it says that He REPEATEDLY did so.

Is this repetition vain? Why or why not?

\\We are to ask, but not in chants.\\

Ever been to a synagogue? Scripture readings and certain prayers are ALWAYS chanted.

Jesus participated in these services Himself, and even led them.
---Cluny on 9/18/10


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Why repeat a prayer when it accomplishes nothing at all. What is prayer?

Prayer is communicating with God.
Psalm 17:1
Proverbs 28:9



What is the purpose of prayer?
1 Kings 8:35
1 Chronicles 21:17
2 Chronicles 6:24-40
Jeremiah 14:11
Daniel 9:4
Malachi 1:9

Sample of prayers:
Deuteronomy 9:26
Judges 10:15
1 Samuel 1:27
1 Kings 8:54
Nehemiah 1:6
Isaiah 26:16
Isaiah 29:11
Isaiah 37:15
Jeremiah 32:16-25
Daniel 9:4-21
Jonah 4:2
---Steveng on 9/17/10


Prayer is communicating with God for all our needs.

When a pray is memorized, it is a vain repetition having no meaning, having no needs.

Matthew 6:7


Jesus' sample prayer starts out as a salutation much like you do when getting the attention of a friend across the street.
Matthew 6:9

Asking for...
Matthew 9:38
Matthew 21:22
Matthew 24:20
Matthew 26:39
Matthew 26:41
Luke 22:32
John 14:16
Acts 8:24
Romans 1:9
Romans 10:1
2 Corinthians 8:4
2 Corinthians 13:7
Philippians 1:9
Philippians 4:6
Colossians 4:12
1 Thessalonians 5:25
Philemon 1:4
Hebrews 5:7
James 5:14-18
Revelation 5:8

Are these the prayers of vain repetitions?
---Steveng on 9/17/10


Rod4Him * Reuben, I doubt that Jesus expected the Lord's prayer to be said over and over many times at the same time.


Why not, the four living creature in the book of Revelation did not not rest day or night saying 'Holy, holy, holy(4:8)

Rod4Him * How would you define, "Vain repetitions?"

The once that do not come from the heart.

Rod4Him * It sounds like you agree with worshipping Mary. It's nice that a Catholic will admit it. We disagree that it's appropriate.

It amazes me how some of you read the comments.

Rod4Him * when Jesus prayed, He was asking, petitioning, "if the cup could pass?" We are to ask, but not in chants.

Rev 4:8 disagree with you.
---Ruben on 9/17/10


Reuben, I doubt that Jesus expected the Lord's prayer to be said over and over many times at the same time. I have no issue with saying a similar prayer at different times during the, but not as a chant. Other religions have chants which is very similar to repeating and repeating, thinking that one will make one heard. How would you define, "Vain repetitions?"

It sounds like you agree with worshipping Mary. It's nice that a Catholic will admit it. We disagree that it's appropriate.

BTW, when Jesus prayed, He was asking, petitioning, "if the cup could pass?" We are to ask, but not in chants.
---Rod4Him on 9/17/10


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Sounds like worship to me and vain repetition.

I know...the Catholics call it veneration. No wonder Cathloics think that they are to worship Mary even if that is not their stated position.
---Rod4Him on 9/17/10


Is Jesus also worshiping:

"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words "(Mt 26:44)

or

Mathhew 6:9

"Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name."

Jesus left us a prayer to say all the time:
By the way had you stay on the program you would had listen to them say this prayer several times as well.
---Ruben on 9/17/10


Martin believed that Miriam is the mother of God (not His divine nature), but not Gods creatures, or coredemptrix, mediatrix of all grace, immaculately conceived, intercessor, to be especially venerated, and he rejected that she was worthy of apotheosistic worship as 'Queen of Heaven', Jeremiah 44, etc. Luke 1:28-30, Christians honor her for being Jesus' mommy, but like all sinners, she needed a Savior. Luther did not believe that asking a Saint to pray to God earned any merit, and that Salvation came through receiving what the Lord did at His death (substitutionary atonement), and could not be added to by works.
---Glenn on 9/17/10


MarkV It is interesting that the RCC accepts that it changed the original Hebrew about the heel.

It agrees that the original Hebrew text refers to the heel of the Woman's seed and ascribed the victory to the seed (Jesus)

They agree the Vulgate says it is the Woman's heel that crushes the serpent, and the Victory is ascribed to the Woman (Mary)

The change is justified thus "The reading "she" (ipsa) is neither an intentional corruption of the original text, nor is it an accidental error, it is rather an explanatory version expressing explicitly the fact of Our Lady's part in the victory over the serpent, which is contained implicitly in the Hebrew original"

What nonsense!
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/17/10


One day I flipped to a Catholic channel on TV, and the program consisted of nuns, I assume that's what they were, repeating over and over again..."Hail Mary ..., Hail Mary..." I don't remembe what they were hailing her about. I left the channel and came back and they were still at it.

Sounds like worship to me and vain repetition.

I know...the Catholics call it veneration. No wonder Cathloics think that they are to worship Mary even if that is not their stated position.
---Rod4Him on 9/17/10


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---MarkV has clearly shown the position of the RCC. From their own statements and there are many more that place the RCC in a totally unbiblical position of worshiping Mary.
---mima on 9/17/10


Jerald, the RCC permits the worship of Mary, above Christ. She is to them their Deliverer. And if you go to the RCC website, you will even find why they justify such practice with a passage in Rev. You should do a little searching.
"The resplendent glory of her merits. far exceeding all the choirs of angels, elevates her to the very steps of the throne of God. Her foot has crushed the head of Satan. "Set up between Christ and his Church" Mary, ever lovable and full of grace, always has delivered the Christian people from their greatest calamities and from the snares and assaults of all their enemies, ever rescuring them from ruin." "Ubi primum." 2nd of Feb. 1849. Pope Pius IX.
---MarkV. on 9/17/10


Jerald 2: Now what do we learn from what Pius said?
1. That Mary bruised the Serpents head. Contrary to what Scripture declares that, "He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel" The He is Christ.
2. That she is set-up between Christ and the Church. a mediator between the believers and Christ.
3. That she delivers believers from calamities and from the assults of their enemies and listen to this, ever rescuing them from ruin. Not Christ but Mary.
Now, what do we conclude from all this? That she is a Mediator, and that she bruised the head of the serpent, and that she saves people.
---MarkV. on 9/17/10


Jerald_Archer, I was raised in an Italian family within an Italian neighborhood all of whom were devout roman catholics. I devoted myself to the church while attending catholic school. They taught the bible using the catecism. That is until I started reading the bible itself. Many questions about discrepancies between the bible and what the catholic church taught. I was overly persistant on getting answers. When the school couldn't tolerate me any longer I was kicked out of school and our family was excommunicated from the church. Our family was forced to move out of the community. I was nine years old. Between nine and the time I was kicked out of the house at sixteen, I was abused by my mother, but years later my mom did apologize.
---Steveng on 9/16/10


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leej * Ruben What the moderator says is totally true.

The theory is that Jesus is far too holy for man to approach in prayer so they resort to praying to Mary who they claim is far more loving and understanding than Jesus could ever be.

How's that worshiping?

leej * In one country, they even affixed a figure of Mary to the back of a crucifix.

This sounds and looks like worshiping, would like to know why they have Mary on a crucifix.

leej * And of course, mothers are always more benevolent that fathers - right? So to whom do you turn to for the goodies, Mary or Jesus?

You can do as the servants did in the wedding at Cana, go to her and all she would do is tell you' do whatsoever you tells you'!
---Ruben on 9/16/10


Ruben//What are they doing to be worshiping her?

What the moderator says is totally true.

The theory is that Jesus is far too holy for man to approach in prayer so they resort to praying to Mary who they claim is far more loving and understanding than Jesus could ever be.

In one country, they even affixed a figure of Mary to the back of a crucifix.

And of course, mothers are always more benevolent that fathers - right? So to whom do you turn to for the goodies, Mary or Jesus?
---leej on 9/16/10


Jerald, don't be fooled. There are millions of Catholics that spend more time worshiping Mary than Jesus. It is especially noticeable in the Latin American countries and yes of course it is done with the Pope's knowledge as the Bishops and Priests in those countries are not reprimanded by the Vatican. I have firsthand experience as an evangelist.
---Moderator on 9/16/10

What are they doing to be worshiping her?
---Ruben on 9/16/10


No assumptions made here, I want to see sources. Some individuals worship the Bible, but I don't think that will be too overly addressed here. Interesting.
---Jerald_Archer on 9/16/10


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Jerald, unless you are an minister in Latin America, you are the one that is working off of assumptions. Yes, the Vatican approves of the Mary worship as the Bishops and Priests are not corrected.
---Alan on 9/16/10


Your generalizing without citing references. I am not saying there are people who do not worship her, that is common knowledge in the Church. The Church condemns such action. People who are ignorant of the Church make up their own reality that is fostered by bad reports. The cannot or will not see the truth of matters, or why Mary is venerated. I also am very aware of the practices of Voodoo that use the Saints as "fronts" for the old gods. As a faithful Catholic, you may rest assured there is little that gets past me. I would urge more research in any case.
---Jerald_Archer on 9/16/10


--Thousands including family members. If one spends anytime as an minister in Latin America, they know that Mary worship is alive and well and approved by the Vatican. Most Catholics in the USA don't worship Mary in the same manner, but many do especially on the border states.--

This is a highly erroneous (and presumptive) statement as it is not approved by the Vatican--I should wonder at your sources, not your credentials here--are you a Catholic?
---Jerald_Archer on 9/16/10


Thousands including family members. If one spends anytime as an minister in Latin America, they know that Mary worship is alive and well and approved by the Vatican. Most Catholics in the USA don't worship Mary in the same manner, but many do especially on the border states.
---Moderator on 9/16/10


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\\There are millions of Catholics that spend more time worshiping Mary than Jesus.\\

I know you hate to be publicly disagreed with and challenged, but how many do YOU actually know (not how many do you THINK you know), Moderator?

As I've said, if there are any who give Mary the worship of LATREIA that belongs to God alone, it's IN SPITE OF the teaching of the Church, not because of it.
---Cluny on 9/16/10


Jerald, don't be fooled. There are millions of Catholics that spend more time worshiping Mary than Jesus. It is especially noticeable in the Latin American countries and yes of course it is done with the Pope's knowledge as the Bishops and Priests in those countries are not reprimanded by the Vatican. I have firsthand experience as an evangelist.
---Moderator on 9/16/10


I don't believe what I read on some of these posts...are some people on these forums that misinformed about the Catholic Church? I am glad I am here to correct these errors. They should not be happening today, their is too much reliable information available out there, if you know where to look. Opinions are not truths, but can contain truths. Some Catholics do "worship" her, but they are in error.
---Jerald_Archer on 9/16/10


Steven.
I just corrected another member for the same error you are saying. It's like an epidemic here. Catholics do not worship anything except God. They ask for intercession, and venerate the image of the saint or Mary, just as one would venerate a photo or painting of a loved one. I am glad I found this forum site---a great deal of education needs to be rendered to some members. I find it a privilege to be able to correct error where I find it, and it may even save your souls in some way in the future. Remember, those who hate the Church, hate Christ. Don't be found in that position--here or anywhere. Knowing the truth is essential to knowing Christ Himself.
---Jerald_Archer on 9/16/10


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Jerald_Archer: "too much anti-Catholic myths... Catholics don't worship her [Mary], but honor her..."

On the contrary, most catholics worship her especially catholics from poorer countries. They even pray to her even though she's dead. They ask her for things. They see apparitions of her. They put up statues of her, place worship candles around her, and even kiss her feet. They even build shrines to her.

Mary is also one of the most highly revered women in Islam and even have a whole chapter about her in the Quran.
---Steveng on 9/15/10


\\ He was of course Catholic and Catholics in general exalt, love and deify Mary.\\

mima, if you know ANYONE (Catholic, Orthodox, or Non-Chalcedonian) who has deified the Virgin Mary, made her a goddess, or somehow the fourth Person of the Trinity, know that such a person has done this NOT because of the teaching of their Churches, BUT IN SPITE OF THEM!

Now, mima, how many people do you actually know who have done this?

Be sure you can look into their hearts and discern correctly first. (Bet you can't!)
---Cluny on 9/15/10


There is a little more to it than that. Do some proper research and use valid sources. Too much anti-Catholic myths out there that should not be, being we live in an age where information is available. All people who follow Christ should honor His Mother. He commanded it and gave Her to mankind when He was on the Cross. Catholics don't worship her, but honor her the same as a person would honor their own mother. Christ never refuses Her requests (like at the wedding at Cana). Some just do not understand, but one forgets that She was honored for over 1500 plus years, why would one stop honoring Her now?
---Jerald_Archer on 9/15/10


\\Isnt Mary Medjugore? The apparation that appeared to the children in Bosnia?\\

No.

Medjugore is a CITY in Bosnia where rumor has it some children (now adults) had visions of the Virgin Mary.

However, these apparitions have NEVER been approved as genuine by the local Bishop, and has ordered that there be NO pilgrimage events or anything similar to the place.
---Cluny on 9/15/10


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Martin Luther was a sinner who recognized that he needed a Savior, and in 'grace alone through faith alone', Ephesians 2:8-9. He was influenced by both his Saxon and Roman-Catholic upbringing, and the change(s) in his theological beliefs came over years. He preached the Priesthood of all believers, denying that only the Magisterium could interpret the Bible, but recognized that all Christians were not equally knowledgeable about the Word. He believed in praying, and did not forbid auricle confession, but he knew 1Timothy 2:5. He submitted tradition to the word, not the other way around. Being in Heaven, Martin's creed has now been perfected.
---Glenn on 9/15/10


Yes it is true that Luther loved Mary. He was of course Catholic and Catholics in general exalt, love and deify Mary. But perhaps matched by Luther's love for Mary is his violent hatred of the Jewish people. But of course the Catholic Church can be shown to be anti-Jewish. I once read an article about the fact that Jesus Christ was born a Jew seen to be completely overlooked by Luther.
---mima on 9/15/10


Isnt Mary Medjugore? The apparation that appeared to the children in Bosnia?
---tonne on 9/15/10


Anti-Catholic is Anti-Christ. One cannot be for Christ and deny His One True Church--The Catholic Church. St. Paul warns us of the problems that Sola Scriptura causes, but most anti-Catholic rhetoric is usually caused by ignorance of the truth. Luther did not expect to happen what did--he was only trying to shape up the Church he really did love. It got out of hand, politically. Been "downhill" ever since. He was so disturbed at the results, he believed himself damned.
---Jerald_Archer on 9/14/10


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Chrisitanity is a religion as a pure religion.

Man's religion? Colossians 2:8-10
---Steveng on 9/14/10


Rhonda, all you've done is prove my point.

\\He HATES traditions of MEN .\\

Including Protestant ones like you believe and practice, Rhonda.

\\Martin Luther believed on perpetual virginity of Mary because he was SOLD on this idea by the MOTHER rcc (Rev 17) seeing this idea contradicts Gods Word \\

Actually, this is NOT a doctrine invented by Rome.

It's one held by ALL the pre-Reformation Aposotlic Churches of the east, despite divisions over Christological doctrines--even by those that had NOTHING to do with Rome.

And as I've said, it's pointless to discuss strong meat such as Mariology in front of people who don't even believe that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate (as can be seen from other posts.)
---Cluny on 9/14/10


If you want to hear nasty things said by professing Christians, just look on these blogs for things said about Roman Catholics and Orthodox
******

no ...all one needs to do is look to God ...He HATES traditions of MEN ...the nasty things said about these BRANDS created by MAN have FIRST been said by God ...look to the origin of the HATE not the messengers who believe every Word of God

many BRANDS have mixed truths ...holding on to MANY traditions of man while understanding some truth

Martin Luther believed on perpetual virginity of Mary because he was SOLD on this idea by the MOTHER rcc (Rev 17) seeing this idea contradicts Gods Word ...as for keeping a diary of empty prayers to a dead women he SERVED a dead idol
---Rhonda on 9/14/10


\\Anyone who does not understand the truthfulness of this statement is one of two things willingly blind are just plain ignorant or a third possibility might be a combination of both.
---mima on 9/12/10\\

mima, have you actually READ the Church Fathers, or even Luther? (And I don't mean quotes selected for polemical purposes, either.)

If you want to hear nasty things said by professing Christians, just look on these blogs for things said about Roman Catholics and Orthodox.
---Cluny on 9/13/10


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"
When did the Apostle's paint with a wide brush the condemnation of all jews?"

That's is my point. Such rhetorical style was indeed used by the Prophets (Isaiah 1:4, 10-21) and the Apostles (Despite what we may believe now concerning that style). Some are called dogs and pigs (Matthew 7:6, 15:27, Phil 3:2), Vipers, and other foul words in Holy Scriptures.

The era in which the Saint Chrysostom spoke was given to a particularly trenchant style of rhetoric. The language sed was trenchant, and a method in rhetorical training of the time. The same device was used against a variety of "opponents"(including the empress, if I am not mistaken).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/12/10


Rod4him,

Thank-you for bring in this discussion. Despite the foul languages used by the Apostles and the Fathers towards Jews, Judaizers, and heretics, we shouldn't use them today because we will not convert one person if we starting using words like "cows" "dogs" "pigs" "vipers" "snakes", etc, in relation to that person.

I am not defending the use of psogos, I am just pointing out that this conceit was used, even by those who wrote the New Testament books. The rhetorical device that Saint John Chyrsotom used (which is a rhetorical overstatement) is wrong, but we can't ignore the fact that such psogos can be found in the pages of the OT and NT.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 9/13/10


Rod4him,

But like I said before, Saint John Chrysostom did not hate the Jewish people because of their ethnic background (blood). He even preached against the wrong or violent treatment of Jews.

Even the Apostles used language against the Jews, Judaizers and heretical sects that prompt many today to label them Anti-Semitic or "haters". That's MY point.

One can look at the Prophets, Apostles or the Fathers in different lights. One will say they were Anti-Semitic (even though they were Jews) and full of hate speech, and others will see it differently.

Of course, using some of their language today might "offend" some, so I agree we shouldn't use them.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/12/10


"By John's standard St. Paul would have been condemned for going to synogogues and fasting and going to the Passover." (rod4him)

I disagree. We can certainty find canons in many Early Church Councils, in which the Fathers told the Early Christians to stay away from the Jewish people or heretics, and not to pray/worship with them. But even this can not be seen as Anti-Semitic.

Remember, the Father's main concern was that Early Christians will not get entangle in the Jewish Religion (with their feasts and fasts that brought no repentance) or the Judaizers, and the many heretical sects that existed and they exhorted them to stand firm in the Apostolic Tradition they delivered to them.

In IC.XC
---Ignatius on 9/12/10


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Ignatius,
//But the polemics works of Saint John Chrysostom against Judaizers and heretics were quite normal in his time//

"normal in his time" doesn't make it right. That's my point.

//(and even the Apostle's time).//

When did the Apostle's paint with a wide brush the condemnation of all jews?

//His bombastic rhetoric might not appeal to some today//

Hate speech then, hate speech now.

//but his primary concern was with the Judaizers.//

Probably, however, passion without love. I Corin. 13.

Equating "spiritual entity" to a whole race and condemning it is racist.
---Rod4Him on 9/12/10


Rod4him,

But the polemics works of Saint John Chrysostom against Judaizers and heretics were quite normal in his time (and even the Apostle's time). The Holy Apostles and the Fathers indeed rebuked sharply those who was not following in the footsteps of the Apostolic Tradition, but instead was corrupting the Holy Dogmas with heretical teachings.

His bombastic rhetoric might not appeal to some today, but his primary concern was with the Judaizers. We also remember that the Fathers view "Jews" as the adherents of a religion, as a spiritual entity, not merely as a race.

By these standards, he was not anti-Semitic.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/12/10


"Martin Luther was also antisemitic as were many of the "Church Fathers." umm...not a very Christian attribute."
---Rod4Him on 9/10/10

Anyone who does not understand the truthfulness of this statement is one of two things willingly blind are just plain ignorant or a third possibility might be a combination of both.
---mima on 9/12/10


Ignatius, no doubt that John C. was against Judaizers, but he drew no distinction between the teaching and the person. His sermons, as much as I have read, are void of "forgive them for they know no what they do." By John's standard St. Paul would have been condemned for going to synogogues and fasting and going to the Passover.

Anyone can read his homlies against the jews and get his condemning attitude. This doesn't mean everything he ever said was wrong, but with an attitude like that, I am cautious of other things he taught.

Reading and teaching Galatians teaches everything John was attempting to teach without the condemnation with a wide brush of all the "jews."
---Rod4Him on 9/12/10


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\\By that standard King Herod was a great king.\\

In the series THE NAKED ARCHAEOLOGIST, Simcha Jacobovic (himself an Orthodox Jew, even if he has a clear agenda) says that Herod Agrippa deserves the title "Great" for his building projects (not just the Temple) and politcal acumen.

|| I suppose "the standards of the times" justifies the Crusaders murdering, splitting guts, looking for swallowed jems, and cannibalism.||

Please tell me specifics (time, place, people)of these things you claim, especially cannibalism by the Crusaders.

And all you need to do is to go to the news, even MSM, to find out how mahometans treat Christians today.
---Cluny on 9/12/10


Rod4him,

Saint John Chrysostom was not anti-Semitic. His "Against the Jews" was about Judaizers in his time, corrupting his congregation.

1) The Early Christians, including the Holy Apostles, were against Judaizing Christians who were trying to live in both worlds, and wanting others to do the same. The Fathers at times point this out in there writings (using sharp words at times).

2) The Early Christians, including the Holy Apostles, were against what Judaism was teaching at their time (i.e., rejection of Christ as the Messiah, etc) and used sharp language at times against the Jews.

All this must be taken into consideration when examining a Father's suppose Anti-Semitic attitude.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/12/10


Rod4him,

Google "Was Saint John Chrysostom Anti-Semitic?". There has been several articles (even books) refuting the claims and putting his works into context.

And I am just curious. How MUCH of the writings and exegetical homilies of Saint John Chrysostom, one of the Beloved Father among Eastern Christians, have you actually read?

In many of his homilies, he praised the Jewish Prophets, those Jews (including the Apostles) who accepted Christianity, and even preached, like all of the Church Fathers, against the wrong or violent treatment of Jews.

Read his exegetical homilies. You might learn something. I, and thousand others, have!

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 9/12/10


John Chrysostom, 344-407 A.D. was anti-semitic. I didn't put a quote as anyone can find his sermons on the internet. Also, there's not much reason to discuss his view because it was justified by the statement, "Judge them by the standards of their times, not by ours." That seems to justify appalling behavior. By that standard King Herod was a great king.
If one followed Jesus' teaching, the hatred by some early church fathers and "the church" toward Jews, or muslems for that matter, would not have happened. I suppose "the standards of the times" justifies the Crusaders murdering, splitting guts, looking for swallowed jems, and cannibalism.
I think the modern term is, "Situational ethics."
---Rod4Him on 9/11/10


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\\Martin Luther was also antisemitic as were many of the "Church Fathers." umm...not a very Christian attribute.
---Rod4Him on 9/10/10\\

Can you tell us which of the Fathers? And give specific quotes, Rod4Him?

Judge them by the standards of their times, not by ours.

Better still, don't judge them at all, but try to learn from them.
---Cluny on 9/11/10


Martin Luther was also antisemitic as were many of the "Church Fathers." umm...not a very Christian attribute.
---Rod4Him on 9/10/10

Absolutely. He was awful to Jews because he couldn't convert them. Yes, there was a lot of FORCED terror by those who claimed we are saved by Grace through faith...not by brow beating and hate, which really is RELIGION.

Christianity is NOT RELIGION, but a person...Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 9/11/10


Kev, I understand that people in history could have misrepresented Martin Luther. So, that thing that I referred to, about him saying to kill certain poor people like they were a nuisance, could have been made up.

But it seems there were a number of "Protestants" who got involved in torturing and killing people who did not agree with their doctrines . . . like how certain "Catholics" had done. If this is true, then they came from the same roots, I'd consider.

Also, I read that ones felt their salvation depended on having their doctrines, which would make their forms of words sacramental . . . like in certain "Roman Catholic" religion. Same roots, with reform but not real change.
---Bill_bila5659 on 9/11/10


Martin Luther was also antisemitic as were many of the "Church Fathers." umm...not a very Christian attribute.
---Rod4Him on 9/10/10


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Consider Matthew 5:11, Blessed are ye when men reuile you, and persecute you, and say all maner of euil against you for my sake, falsely. (1560 Geneva Bible)

William Tyndale, a godly Bible translator and holy martyr wrote this important exhortation, ''even so Rochester layeth to Martin Luther's charge the slaying and murdering of Christian men, because they will not believe in his doctrine, which thing Rochester and his brethren have not ceased to do now certain hundred years, with such malice ( & c). And because that all the world knoweth that Martin Luther slayeth NO man but killeth only with the spiritual sword the worde of God such cankered consciences as Rochester hath.''

(The Obedience of a Christian man)
---Kev on 9/10/10


He had roots in the sort of Catholicism that he supposedly departed from. There were "Protestants" who, once they had the power, were able to kill and torture and take property and position from those who did not outwardly conform to their standards. This is what Satanic "Catholic" people did, and so those sort of "Protestants" had roots in the same thing, just branching religiously (outwardly) elsewhere. I read that Martin Luther said something like, just kill all those poor people who were not acceptable to the religious leaders. *If* he really said that, was he an example of how Jesus loves, or someone else?
---Bill_bila5659 on 9/10/10


Luther also preferred Latin as the liturgical language.

Also the first Eucharistic rite that by rubric called for the elevation of both host and chalice was his Formua Missae.
---Cluny on 9/9/10


Sounds like M. Luther was another another that was blindsided by 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15, his mind & conscience sered.
---Lawrence on 9/9/10


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Because they are taught in Holy Scriptures.

FYI, Martin Luther was a interesting guy. He rejected certain books in the Old Testament, and even the New Testament. He was Sola Scriptura to a degree, but He did not agree with the rest of Christians on the canonical status of certain books (James, Hebrews, 2 Peter, Jude, and Revelation). He detested James because He could never reconciled what Saint James taught and what he was teaching.

BTW, Martin Luther also held to Baptismal Regeneration, Infant Baptism, defended the title "Theotokos" to the Virgin Mary, approved of Liturgical worship (i.e., even the used of incense, etc), among other things because He knew they were taught in Scriptures.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 9/8/10


"Luther regarded ceremonies, the use of clerical robes, candles on the altar, the attitude of the minister in prayer, as matters of indifference which may be retained or abolished. In the revision of the baptismal service, 1526, he abolished the use of salt, spittle, and oil, but retained the exorcism in an abridged form. He also retained the public confession and absolution, and recommended private confession of sin to the minister." (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume 7, pg 489).

He also held to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Martin Luther will not feel at home in any Evangelical church. Protestants have derailed from the steps of their forefather!

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 9/8/10


Ulrich Zwingli, who was even more radical than Luther, said that veneration of the Virgin Mary "is inscribed on the deepest recesses of the Christian's heart."
---Cluny on 9/8/10


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