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What Is Willful Sin

What is willful sin as written in Hebrews 10:26?

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 ---David on 9/13/10
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Mark, you are already on record as to what you believe "dead" means. Just about every discussion on election you make it quite clear. Dead means NO life AT ALL.

I hope you dont contradict yourself again.

Im watching you :P
---JackB on 9/26/10


How can you understand what you do not see?
How can you see what you do not understand?

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.

And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.

And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?


Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Blessed is that man!

God Bless!
---TheSeg on 9/26/10


Sin was still within him. What he wanted to do he did not do, and that he didn't want to do he did do. Pretty simple.
---MarkV. on 9/26/10

Pretty simple???
You teach that Dead is not dead, that is not a simple teaching.

(Matthew 7:18)
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Is sin good fruit Mark?
Did Jesus say that a good tree occasionally brings forth evil fruit?

The teachings of Jesus Christ ARE simple, but with yours, one must disavow too much of the Bible.
---David on 9/26/10


David, you go in circles. You read what you desire. What makes you do that? The Spirit? I do not think so, it is the flesh speaking.
Look, the lost have no spirit of God. They sin because they are slaves to sin, doing the desires of their father the devil.
When someone is born of the Spirit, he still has the flesh but now also has the Spirit of God within him. He is called to walk in the Spirit of God but does not alway walk in the Spirit of God. He walks many times in the desires of the flesh. While walking in that condition, he is not walking in the Spirit. He has a battle within him, as Paul described. Sin was still within him. What he wanted to do he did not do, and that he didn't want to do he did do. Pretty simple.
---MarkV. on 9/26/10


Desires do come from the Spirit, but they are good desires. Desires do come from the flesh, they are bad desires. Get that one right.
---MarkV. on 9/25/10

Mark
When you sin, you are doing the desires of the flesh.... correct?
If you are obeying the desires of the flesh, how can you say that you are being led by the Spirit?

If the spirit within you causes you to sin, the spirit within you is not the Holy Spirit.

Oh...And By the way, Paul, like me, died to sin.
(Romans 7:9)
"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
Dead is dead!!!





---David on 9/26/10




David, you are getting yourself all confused with the Scriptures. Desires do come from the Spirit, but they are good desires. Desires do come from the flesh, they are bad desires. Get that one right. When a person is lost, he does the desires of his father the devil. When a person is born of the Spirit he does the desires of the Spirit. When he sins he does the desires of the flesh. The one that has not been redeemed. He is called to walk in the Spirit for that reason. Not because he doesn't remember, but because he many times does not walk in the Spirit. I think the more you answer the more you get confused. Many are answering that can help you, I will let you go David, Hope I helped somehow. Peace
---MarkV. on 9/25/10


What? We have blood, of bulls and goats, or Jesus Blood of the NEW Covenant( Spirit) vs Old Covenant (FLESH). We have LAW vs the Spirit of Grace.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/10

Kathryn
Didn't the Jews have attonement and forgiveness of sin under the animal sacrifice?
(Leviticus 4:35)
---David on 9/25/10


I'm confused. Are YOU saying our desire to sin comes from the spirit?---kathr4453 on 9/24/10

Yes!

The Holy Spirit?---kathr4453 on 9/24/10

No!
(Romans 8:5)
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh,(Sin) but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."(Righteousness)

The desires of a man comes from within their Spirit.
(Ecclesiastes 6:9)
"Better is the sight of the eyes than the wandering of the desire: this is also vanity and vexation of spirit"

Sin starts with Desire.
(James 4:14-15)
"Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin."
---David on 9/25/10


David
If we were sinless NOW then there wouldnt be a need to 'purify' ourselves as we await Christs return.
---JackB on 9/24/10

Well founded statement my friend!

Jack
Look down a few verses at (1John 3:5).
It says there that Jesus came to take away sin.
What does "take away sin" mean?

---David on 9/25/10


David, you said that's what the Pharisees did, the Pharisees were not believers. You are attributing what the lost do to what believers do.
Here is what blaspheme of the Holy Spirit means,
Someone never exposed to Christ's divine power and presence might reject Him in ignorance and be forgiven-assuming the unbelief gives way to genuine repentance. Even a Pharisee such as Saul of Tarsus could be forgiven for speaking "against the Son of Man" or persecuting His followers- because his unbelief stemmed from ignorance (1 Tim. 1:13), "but those who know His claims are true and reject Him anyway sin "against the Holy Spirit-because it is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Christ and makes His truth known to us (John 15:26).
---MarkV. on 9/25/10




Where do you find support for your idea that a believer who sins is blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
---James_L on 9/24/10

James read below.
(Isaiah 5:19-20)
"Let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness"

Who is the Holy One of Israel that counsels?
(John 14:26)
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you.


In Mark 3, this is exactly what the Pharisee's did, which prompted the warning from Jesus Christ.
This is what you do by claiming to be born of God who is Good, and continuing to do evil.


---David on 9/25/10


Well put, Kathr.

Best treatment of the subject yet
---James_L on 9/24/10


David,

1 John 3:2,3

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


If we were sinless NOW then there wouldnt be a need to 'purify' ourselves as we await Christs return.
---JackB on 9/24/10


Why is it WILLFUL SIN? Because you can help it. Because it is clear that we are not to go back under the Law. Anyone who does is WILLFULLY SINNING AGAINST the Known will of God!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/24/10


So David in answer to your question AS WRITTEN IN HEBREWS 10:26, was to Jews, who were having a difficult time making the transition from Law to Grace. Unfortunately many were teaching the Law of Moses to Gentiles, and Paul tells the Gentiles in Galatians those who do FALL FROM GRACE....so the warning is the same.

Christ is the END OF THE LAW...and to practice the old law and mingle it with GRACE is WILLFUL sin, why, because it INSULTS Jesus, it insults the New Covenant, and the Spirit of GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/10


Hebrews 10:26. WHO, what when where how and WHY is this statement made? OH GEE, lets begin at the beginning of the chapter to SEE what willful sin is in respect to the chapter.

Who? TO Jews

What? We have blood, of bulls and goats, or Jesus Blood of the NEW Covenant( Spirit) vs Old Covenant (FLESH). We have LAW vs the Spirit of Grace.

WHEN? After Jesus death and resurrection. ONCE and for ALL.

Where? Temple sacrifices of animals vs Christ our Heavenly Temple and HIS BLOOD.

How? How can anyone go back to the incomplete OLD when we are in the NEW under better promises.

Why? Christ is the END of the LAW. Its Christ and HIS Righteousness or Judgment!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/24/10


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One major flaw in Jack's "Theory" my friends.
The desire to sin comes from the spirit, but the spirit does not sin.
Sin is an action taken because of the desire to sin, and that action can only come from the flesh.
It is the desire to sin that must die, and if there is no desire, there will be no sin.

Jack, Mark and James
Please Try to make your lives fit into the teachings in the Bible, and stop trying to change the Bible to make it fit into your lives.
---David on 9/23/10

David I'm confused. Are YOU saying our desire to sin comes from the spirit? The Holy Spirit? or are you saying Jack said that...I don't see Jack saying that.
---kathr4453 on 9/24/10


David 2: Evil and sin are still present, but the believers sees them in a new perspective (v.16), and they no longer control him. Paul never taught sinlessness. He just didn't speak to believers concerning the flesh, unless he found out they were in habitual sin and he then told them they should walk in the Spirit daily and not in the flesh because then they would identify themselves as the lost. The believers new spiritual perception of everything is a constant reality for him, and he now lives for eternity, not temporal things. James identifies this transformation as the faith that produces works (Eph. 2:19, James 2:14-26). We should look at believers also as new creations, not sinless believers.
---MarkV. on 9/24/10


David,
You still didn't answer my questions. First, where do you find support (in the bible, not in empty philosophy) for your idea that a believer who sins is blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Next, I'd like you to clarify. It sounds as though you are saying you do not sin because you are a new creation. If that's the case, how do you viesw your flesh? Has your flesh been created new already, or is it still sinful and corrupt like everyone else's? That's what we need clarification on.
---James_L on 9/24/10


David, I want you to read the passage you gave in 2 Cor. 5:17 again but read the context concerning what Paul was saying, Read v. 16:
"Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh"
Since Paul's convertion, his priority was to meet people's spiritual needs (Acts 17:16, Rom. 1:13-16, 9:1-3, 10:1). "According to the flesh" Paul no longer evaluated people according to the external, human, worldly standards (10:3). And he goes on to give the passage you gave v. 17. He told them they were new creations, old things passed away, because after a person is regenerated, old values systems, priorities, beliefs, love and plans are gone.
---MarkV. on 9/24/10


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David,
watchu smokin, kid?
Please clarify so we have a firm grasp on the error we need to refute.
---James_L on 9/23/10

(Romans 8:10)
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
What does dead mean to you James?
If Christ is in you, why do you sin, since you are now a slave to Righteousness?

Can you serve two masters?
(Matthew 6:24)
"No man can serve two masters"
If you sin, who is you Master?
Does Christ tell you to sin?

I also think you may have had a relation at the Day of Pentecost.(Acts 2:13) LoL
---David on 9/24/10


Second, read Kathr's last reply.

Then after that, read Kathr's last reply again.
---James_L on 9/23/10

James
You follow Kathryn and I'll follow Christ.
---David on 9/23/10


David,
watchu smokin, kid?

First, have you read the account where Jesus told the Pharisees that every sin would be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I missed the verse where Jesus made reference to them saying they don't sin. ??? Jesus was warning against attributing His miracles to Beelzebub (Satan).

Second, read Kathr's last reply.

Then after that, read Kathr's last reply again.

Then after that, read your bible.

What kind of new creature are you? Have you undergone a trasfiguration? Or resurrection? Reincarnation? Or did you just comb your hair and put on clean clothes? Please clarify so we have a firm grasp on the error we need to refute.
---James_L on 9/23/10


Folks
Many of you claim that you have been born of the Spirit of God and yet you continue to sin.
Do you not understand that what you teach is the very thing that Jesus warned you about?
It is called, Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

If someone claims that they have been born of the Holy Spirit, and they still sin, are they not saying that the Holy spirit is Evil?
(2 Corinthians 5:17)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new.
---David on 9/23/10


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David, the desire to sin comes out of our old man so scripture tells us. This man also know as flesh, our old adam etc. But wait, doesn't romans 6-8 state walk in the spirit so you won't give way to the flesh...

And Paul does say, shall we continue to sin that grace may abound, God forbid,

We died to sin. SIN NEVER DIES, however we died to sin.

But, then again Paul tells us I DIE DAILY. So, it is an ever daily walk, now that we are told sin has no more POWER OVER US.

But that too, it seems, is a choice of obedience to walk, live etc in the Spirit!
---kathr4453 on 9/23/10


Our flesh sins but our spirit does not once it is reborn. Thus making scripture true where it says whosoever is born of GodOur flesh sins but our spirit does not once it is reborn.---JackB on 9/22/10

One major flaw in Jack's "Theory" my friends.
The desire to sin comes from the spirit, but the spirit does not sin.
Sin is an action taken because of the desire to sin, and that action can only come from the flesh.
It is the desire to sin that must die, and if there is no desire, there will be no sin.

Jack, Mark and James
Please Try to make your lives fit into the teachings in the Bible, and stop trying to change the Bible to make it fit into your lives.
---David on 9/23/10


David, I have answered you with Scripture, and you come back with,
"When your life does not match what Jesus taught, you must then find a way around that Truth which will make your teachings the Truth, and his a lie."
How do you know what my life matches to? I said that you take passages out of context and they contradict other passages. To say you are sinless is to say, "you don't come short of the glory of God but all others do"
The Bible says, "All come short of the glory of God" Why don't you read what Jesus said about the heart of men in Mark 7:21-23, and you will see what comes out of the heart of men.
---MarkV. on 9/23/10


Jack, those were very good passages you gave. Paul did admit sin within him. He didn't say he was sinless.
---MarkV. on 9/22/10


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JackB,
You've hit the jackpot!!!

That's exactly what Paul was saying, but too many people fail to see that. I believe Satan did a pretty good number on the church right off the bat with Gnosticism. But we can rest assured that he will not prevail in the end. Glory to God.
---James_L on 9/22/10


For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that do I.

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:



Seems to me that Paul is saying what JamesL did. Our flesh sins but our spirit does not once it is reborn. Thus making scripture true where it says whosoever is born of God sinneth not and also making it true that we sin on a daily basis because of our flesh.
---JackB on 9/22/10


David, there is no denying what Scripture says, but if you took the time to research what is been said through the Grk and Hebrew text translations of words in the context, you would know the real Truth.---MarkV. on 9/22/10

Mark
I say again, Show me where my teachings contradict the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I have already shown where yours do.
Want to see more?

Who is the false teacher, the one who teaches what Jesus taught, or you the one who opposes what Jesus taught?
Your teachings are clearly opposed to what Christ taught.
---David on 9/22/10


David, there is no denying what Scripture says, but if you took the time to research what is been said through the Grk and Hebrew text translations of words in the context, you would know the real Truth. What you do is take some passages at face value, but when you do that you contradict Scripture in other passages. So, it's your interpretation that is wrong. The fact is you still have a sin nature, and will always sin in this life. So to say you are without sin, is to call God a liar as Scripture declares. Only One human being was without sin, and that was Jesus Christ. Even sins of ommission are sins, and when you fail to study the Truth and say you are sinless, you sin. Your Spirit might be sinless but your body is not.
---MarkV. on 9/22/10


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The false teachers went so far as to deny they had a sin nature as you do now. ---MarkV. on 9/21/10

Mark
It is very difficult to show you these Truths when you discount the very words of Jesus Christ.
You say that you believe he is the Son of God, and yet you call him a liar when you do not believe his words.
When your life does not match what Jesus taught, you must then find a way around that Truth which will make your teachings the Truth, and his a lie.

Many times you change the meaning of his words, even though you are warned against this in (1 Timothy 6:4)
"He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions"



---David on 9/22/10


James, when answering about a person, it is talking about our flesh and our New Spirit in us. You are right when you said,
"Before conversion, both are fallen and corrupt. At conversion, our spirit is regenerated, recreated, made perfect, washed clean, sinless, incapable of sin, etc."
That's correct. But when someone claims they are sinless, they deny the need of Christ in their lives as Mediator, Advocate. Second the argument you give is Jesus Christ, we are not talking about Jesus Christ for He was sinless, we are talking about men, who fall short of the glory of God.
We are forgiven sinners. We do identify with Christ as been forgiven, but in great need of Him in our lives. The extreme is to say we are sinless.
---MarkV. on 9/22/10


Mark, I haven't heard anyone deny tha they have a sin nature. What you seem unable to do is separate the flesh from the spirit.

Before conversion, both are fallen and corrupt. At conversion, our spirit is regenerated, recreated, made perfect, washed clean, sinless, incapable of sin, etc.

But our sinless spirit still resides in a corrupt fleshly body.

You referenced Gnostics, who carried Paul's teaching to a heretical extreme. They concluded that if the spirit is perfect and the flesh is corrupt, then Jesus couldn't have had a literal flesh and bone body, being Himself divine. Also that everything spirit is good, everything physical is evil. Both heretically extreme
---James_L on 9/21/10


//For no where does it say they were saved. They were false teachers Jack. False teachers are not save. They are apostates. They know the Truth of the gospel but they themselves have no true faith. If they did, they would not abandon it and teach false doctrines//---MarkV

The more you struggle against the truth, Mark, the deeper you sink into the lie.

Do you realize you just said that Peter nor Barnabas was never saved? They both were in error, teaching men to obey Jewish law as well as have faith. Paul had to correct them. (Gal 2:11-21)

..they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel
---JackB on 9/21/10


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David, sinless, the very same thing the false teachers were teaching in 1 John. The false teachers went so far as to deny they had a sin nature in their lives as you do now. If someone doesn't admits to being a sinner, salvation cannot result in this life (Matt. 19:16-23 for the account of the young man who refused to recognize his sin). Continual confession of sin is an indication of genuine salvation. While the false teachers would not admit their sin, the genuine Christian admitted and forsook it. "Make Him a liar" Since God has said that all people are sinners (ps. 14:3, 51:5, Is. 53:6, Romans 3:10-19,23, 6:23) to deny that fact is to blaspheme God with slander that defames His name.
---MarkV. on 9/21/10


So my question, are you sinless?
---Mark_V. on 9/19/10

Yes it is true,I do not sin, for I can not sin because I have been born of God.

Mark
You must take a long hard look at yourself and ask why you have such a hard time believing what the Bible says.
For you, The whole Bible seems to be written out of context.
If it says something that does not match your experience, it must be out of context.

(John 8:34) & (1John 3:9), for example, both seem to be clear enough, but you must find that they are both out of context.
Why?
Is it simply because they do not match your experience?
If this is the reason, you have made yourself the measure of righteousness.
This disease is called self-righteousness.
---David on 9/21/10


I agree with Jack, Hebrews was written to Jewsish believers who were considering returning to the Law (sacrifices) because of persecution. 6:1 exhorts them to "not lay again a foundation of repentance from dead works (sacrifices) and of faith toward God."

On the sin/flesh debate, you must understand regeneration. A believer's spirit is recreated perfect, and "cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9). Washed clean, born again, divine nature (not gods), new heart, new spirit, made alive in Christ.

Our body (flesh) is still sinful (1 John 1:8-9). It is a body of death (Rom 7:24), but will be regenerated at our resurrection (Rom 8:11).

With our mind, we obey one or the other (Rom 8:5-10).
---James_L on 9/21/10


Jack, your putting your own meaning on the verse when you say,
""They" had already escaped the pollution of the world thru the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It would have been better had they never have known."
Because if you are implying this people were saved, then you have added your own meaning. For no where does it say they were saved. They were false teachers Jack. False teachers are not save. They are apostates. They know the Truth of the gospel but they themselves have no true faith. If they did, they would not abandon it and teach false doctrines.
---MarkV. on 9/21/10


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//The context in 2 Peter is talking about false teachers, who promise others liberty to those who struggled in life. They themselves were corrupted.//

Nice try.

For when they (false teachers)speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

Whether or not the object of vs 20,21 is the false teachers or those who were 'clean escaped' doesnt matter. Its the message given in vs 20 and 21.

"They" had already escaped the pollution of the world thru the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. It would have been better had they never have known.

Luke 11:24-26
Matt 12:43-45.
---JackB on 9/20/10


Jack, your interpretation of 2 Peter 2:21 is a wrong interpretation. You just took the passage without context. The context in 2 Peter is talking about false teachers, who promise others liberty to those who struggled in life. They themselves were corrupted. The verse "turned back from the holy Commandments" was in describing the perversion and defection of the false teachers. They professed the Christian experience (the way of righteousness) Matt. 21:32, and even had access to the true teachings of Scripture. But by their lives they demonstrated that they ultimately had chosen to reject Christ. (Heb. 10:26-31) Such false teachers as Peter was describing were not made outside Christianity, they are always bred in the Church.
---MarkV. on 9/20/10


Jack I do see where you are coming from.
This is where I am coming from:

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

I would say, not in arguement but in fact, that to reject Jesus is to reject God

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Then as many people preach. anything can be a god, which comes back to the first moral law.
If you choose to obey another voice rather than Jehovah, even on something not written in the moral law ( say homozexuality) then you are serving another god(s).
---FRANCIS on 9/20/10


//When is SIN not about the Moral Law?//
---francis on 9/19/10

Why do I have the feeling youre just being argumentative?

Rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ is called a SIN because it is the holy commandment (2 Peter 2:21) given by God , that we believe on him whom He hath sent (John 6:29) Those who do not are committing a sin.
---JackB on 9/20/10


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David 2: If you read the passage correctly in Romans 6:13 you will see that in verse 12 it says, "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lust"
This passage imply's that there is sin in our what? "mortal bodies" that we should not obey it in its lust. What that tells me is that we do still have a mortal body that sins, and that we should not obey it. Because why? verse 13, "We"
"are not to present our members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin," Why does he say that? Because we still can with our mortal bodies.
---MarkV. on 9/20/10


David, you are avoiding my question. You are not answering. You also gave a teaching passage for conduct as I said we are given. Let me say that for once I agree on what Jack said. The context of Hebrews 4 is talking about "the forgiveness of sins" once and for all through Christ. Sacrifice and offerings, burned offering and offerings for sin they did not desire, nor had pleasure in them, this offering were according to the law. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. Yet, He says He comes to do the will of His Father to take away those old offerings that were according to the law and replace it with His own life once and for all on the Cross.
---MarkV. on 9/20/10


(Romans 6:13)
"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life."

Mark
As you know, Romans was a letter written to the church in Rome.
Since the letter was written to the members of the church wouldn't these members be believers?
Since this letter was written to believers,
who is Paul talking about in the above verse that have been brought from death to life?
What makes them different from other members of the church?

---David on 9/19/10


This is not about the moral law. Its about the law of sacrifices vs the death,burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
--JackB on 9/18/10

When is SIN not about the Moral Law?
---francis on 9/19/10


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David, I also ask the question to you in love. You told me you use to be a sinner for 41 years, as if to say you are not anymore. So my question stands, are you sinless? You speak of sinlessness. We all know what Scripture teaches believers, "stay away from sin, you are not one of the lost who do whatever they want." or "You belong to the Lord." The whole New Testament teaches believers conduct, why? Because we still sin. We are forgiven and have a new disposition, and now love Christ, but there is sin in our flesh. Paul called it, "sin within me."
Oh, by the way, Hebrews was written to Hebrews, save and unsave. It's easy to see in the passages who is addressed by the context.
---Mark_V. on 9/19/10


I only heard of One that came that is without sin, the Lord Jesus.
---Mark_V. on 9/18/10

Mark
(Sorry I missed your post yesterday)
I did not say I have never sinned, I lived a sinful life for 41 years before I was born again.
That is the whole point of being born of God, so that through his Grace, we can stand up to Satan and overcome the temptation to sin.
We can not please God in sin, so sin must be removed in sinful man.

That is why (Hebrews 10:4) tells us that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ can take away sin.

One question:
What do you think the verse means when it says take away sin?
It can not be forgiveness, for that was offered under the animal sacrifice.(Leviticus 4:35)

---David on 9/19/10


Look who the book is addressed to.
-JackB on 9/18/10

Jack you make alot of very good points that I agree with, but Hebrews is not so much addressed to the Hebrews as it was written about the Hebrews and the reasons why there was need for a New Covenant.
---David on 9/18/10


For if we sin wilfully after that we have received knowledge of the truth, there remais no more sacrifice for sins...

This is not about the moral law. Its about the law of sacrifices vs the death,burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The willful "SIN" here is rejecting Jesus Christ for Judaism. Look at the name of the book... Hebrews! Look who the book is addressed to. Everything up to that verse is comparing Christ to the old covenant and showing how He is BETTER than animal sacrifice.

If you reject Christ there remains no more sacrifice for sins because the OLD covenant is waxed away already. Its the blood of Christ OR a fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation.
---JackB on 9/18/10


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I believe man/women (Christian men and women) will continue to sin until their death, but not willingly if they are TRULY saved, born again, spirit filled. They will sin, but not will-fully. Does that make sense? ---Donna5535 on 9/15/10

So Sorry Donna for not responding.
No it doesn't make sense to me, but I do understand why you believe it and I do respect you for that belief.

There is something else I want you and other to know about me.
When I engage you, when I challege your belief, I do so out of my love for you.

Jesus always applied questions to those who did not believe what he said, and I only follow in the footsteps of the Master.
---David on 9/18/10


David, What's your point? That you are sinless? I ask the same question to francis who spoke to defend your stance. Is he without sin? I only heard of One that came that is without sin, the Lord Jesus. Are you saying you too are without sin? Everythin comes to this question. If you defend sinlessness, are you sinless?
My answer is that you are not. For all come short of the glory of God. You can take a passage and twisted to say believers cannot sin, but you cannot change that you are sinner. The flesh will die, and we will receive new bodies prepared for heaven. You have not died so you are still in your sinful nature. We are commanded to walk in the Spirit because people still walk in the flesh. Otherwise we would not be told.
---Mark_V. on 9/18/10


David, you are going in circles. How can your flesh be dead? You are on line answering me. You will die physically because of sin, when your times comes. The lost are also dead in trespasses and sin, what that means is a spiritual death.
---MarkV. on 9/17/10

(Romans 8:13)
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die, but if ye by the Spirit [shall] slay the deeds of the flesh, ye shall live."

Mark
Looks like it Says that the deeds of the flesh must die.
Also please notice that the deeds of the flesh must die, if you are to have life.

Deeds of the flesh?
Sounds like he is talking about sin doesn't it?
Am I still on the line?
---David on 9/17/10


1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we transgress the law wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

IF you make an effort to break any of these it is wilful sin:

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet
---francis on 9/17/10


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David, you are going in circles. How can your flesh be dead? You are on line answering me. You will die physically because of sin, when your times comes. The lost are also dead in trespasses and sin, what that means is a spiritual death, Separated from God. They need to be born again of the Spirit so they are not separated from God anymore spiritually. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. It's our new spiritual life in Christ. Though we are now spiritually alive to Christ, our physical bodies will still die because of sin. The body has not been redeemed.
---MarkV. on 9/17/10


David, I do not get your first comments about alcoholics.---MarkV. on 9/16/10

It was a comparative as to what I have learned about your Salvation beliefs.
And yes, they are hard to understand.

"Second, you said that believers are like alcoholics, they are both slaves, I think you are right, believers are slaves to Christ"
---MarkV. on 9/16/10

Paul taught that Christ's slaves are slaves of righteousness.(Romans 6:16)
Is sin somehow considered a righteous act under your doctrine?

Now if you are stating that believers cannot get away from sinning, that is true so long as we live in the flesh we sin.---MarkV. on 9/16/10

How can you live in the flesh, if it has died?
---David on 9/17/10


David, I hear you. I know that sound. It's the sound of the Good News. The gospel works effectually in them that believe. The result of the work of Christ is the revelation of the One who finished the work. We are not who we are because of what we do. We are who we are because of Who our Daddy is....we have the same nature as children of God. Find out the result of His work, believe it, and you will walk according to what you believe. Sinners sin because they are sinners. Believers sin because of a carnal mind that minds the things of the flesh rather than the things of the Spirit. Eph.1:17-23
---Linda on 9/16/10


David, I do not get your first comments about alcoholics. If they are still drinking, they have not quit period. No brainer.
Second, you said that believers are like alcoholics, they are both slaves, I think you are right, believers are slaves to Christ, what they do as good is for the glory of Christ. Alcoholics do it for their own glory to get drunk.
Now if you are stating that believers cannot get away from sinning, that is true so long as we live in the flesh we sin. That's why we are told to live in the Spirit. We are not a new nature, but a new creation. Regeneration is but the beginning of our new life in Christ. And through sanctification the Spirit changes us through time.
---MarkV. on 9/16/10


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Habitual sins are taken care of by the work of the Holy Spirit. ---MarkV. on 9/15/10

Mark
You and others have mentioned "Habitual Sin" before.
How much sin is one allowed before sin is called "Habitual sin"?
And where in the Bible are these limits set?

Mark, Let's say that I am an Alcohloic and I am trying to quit drinking alcohol.
Before I tried to quit, I drank a case of beer a day and after I quit, I only drank a six pack of beer a day.
If I am still drinking, is it not because of my habit?

A believer is much like an Alcoholic.
Both are slaves and do not do what they do not want to do.
Both must deal with addiction, an alcoholic with alcohol, and a sinner with sin.
---David on 9/16/10


David, you ask me one simple question,
" If someone has been freed from sin and they are no longer a slave to sin, why would they sin?"
Because they remain in the flesh which has not been redeemed. The flesh will be glorified when we receive our new bodies. Their nature is still sinful. They didn't get a new nature, but are a new creation. Regeneration is a new spiritual life in Christ.
It is called, "transformation" We are been transformed. Habitual sins are taken care of by the work of the Holy Spirit.
---MarkV. on 9/15/10


We are free. We still sin, but not habitually.---MarkV. on 9/15/10

Mark
Some Simple questions for you to ponder:
If someone has been freed from sin and they are no longer a slave to sin, why would they sin?
(Romans 6:7)
"For he that is dead is freed from sin."

If They are no longer slaves of sin, wouldn't their sin be willful sin, since sin is no longer their master?
If you sin, according to Paul, are you a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness?

(Romans 6:16)
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey, whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
---David on 9/15/10


Mima,

The verse is true, but it is out of context. Purgatory is scriptural, but you need to look at the Catholic Church's explanation of it. If your authority is only the bible, you limit your access to truth in fullness of what Christ taught.
---Jerald_Archer on 9/15/10


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Mima,

It is true, Christ does take away the sins, but "once saved, always saved" says that a persons will not have to expiate for sins after death, or even be guilty of sin after they are "saved". What about all the sins that are still committed after baptism? Our works are tried by fire, and we must be purged before we are able to stand before God. One cannot do this if there is sin attached to their souls. Does that makes sense to you?
---Jerald_Archer on 9/15/10


David 2: Now if you take "sin willfully" out of the Grk. term, then you have a whole new term. Because when someone is tempted and they sin, they sin willfully. No one is putting a gun to their heads. If they are forced to sin then they cannot be judge by God. They know they should not sin, and don't want to sin, but when they do, they do it willingly. Just as Augie said.
But the passages in Hebrews is speaking on Grk. terms. Habitual sin. And the Bible tells us that we are no longer slaves to sin. We are free. We still sin, but not habitually. Paul spoke of sin within him, everyone has that problem as he did. He wanted to do good all the time, but sin within him stopped him. The flesh which has not been redeemed.
---MarkV. on 9/15/10


Do you agree with this statement Donna?
---David on 9/15/10

David, I do not believe man/woman can STOP sinning all together until we are in Heaven, in our Glorified Bodies.

I do believe the bible, "if we walk by the Spirit, we will not carry out the desires of the flesh."

I believe man/women (Christian men and women) will continue to sin until their death, but not willingly if they are TRULY saved, born again, spirit filled. They will sin, but not will-fully. Does that make sense?
---Donna5535 on 9/15/10


David, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the Truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" the Grk. term carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual. The sin is rejecting Christ deliberately. According to the Mosaic legislation, such acts of deliberate, premeditated sin required exclusion from the congregation of Israel (Num. 15:30,31) and from worship (Ex. 21:14). "Knowledge of the truth," here the Grk. term denotes specific knowledge, not general spiritual knowledge (6:4, 1 Tim. 2:4). First, the knowledge was not defective or incomplete, the application of the knowledge was certainly flawed. Judas was a good example, he had all knowledge but lacked faith.
---MarkV. on 9/15/10


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If you desire to STOP sinning, the bible tells us how: "By the Spirit, you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh."
---Donna5535 on 9/14/10

Donna
So, you believe that it is possible to stop sinning(Doing evil)?
I believe this also, but many do not believe this, they seem to think that God gave us instructions for the impossible.

Man can not put to death the misdeeds of the body, for man this is impossible, but for God this is possible, if we walk according to the Holy Spirit.

Do you agree with this statement Donna?
---David on 9/15/10


". A mortal sin can send you to Hell, but a venial sin will only require time in Purgatory for it's expatiation."

If the above statement by Archer is true what are we to do with this verse?
John 1:29,"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD?"
---mima on 9/15/10


Willful sin is the complete "turning away" from God. It is a mortal sin. A venial sin is more of a sin of omission. A mortal sin can send you to Hell, but a venial sin will only require time in Purgatory for it's expatiation. Confession (with sincere contrition for the sin) washes the stain of sin away. Only a priest has the authority, given by the Catholic Church through Christ, to do this. If a priest is not available, then one can still obtain pardon through a perfect act of contrition, but must confess the sin as soon as possible.
---Jerald_Archer on 9/14/10


It is knowing what a Christian is no longer suspose to do,be like the sinful world,but being rebellious they end up doing it anyway. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.
---Darlene_1 on 9/14/10


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But what do you call someone who does desire to stop their wrongful behavior and yet continues to sin?
Would those people who sin against their will, be slaves to sin?
---David on 9/14/10

David, Study Romans Chapter 6 and 7. The Apostle Paul had the same problem.

He said, the things that I desire NOT to do, I do. Yet it is not I who sins, but my flesh that is sinning.

If you desire to STOP sinning, the bible tells us how: "By the Spirit, you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh."

Walk by the SPIRIT, and you will NOT carry out the desires of the flesh. So the secret is walking by the Spirit of God.
---Donna5535 on 9/14/10


"Willful Sin" is when I am consciously aware that I'm doing something WRONG, but decide to go ahead and do that WRONG something anyway.
I have no desire to STOP my WRONGFUL behavior, thoughts, or both.
---Augie on 9/13/10


Interesting view, Augie
But what do you call someone who does desire to stop their wrongful behavior and yet continues to sin?
Would those people who sin against their will, be slaves to sin?
---David on 9/14/10


"Willful Sin" is when I am consciously aware that I'm doing something WRONG, but decide to go ahead and do that WRONG something anyway.

I have no desire to STOP my WRONGFUL behavior, thoughts, or both.

A good example of "willful sin" is decidings to THINK about how someone has "hurt" you, and PLANNING a way to "get even" with them. The SIN here is planning REVENGE, instead of FORGIVENESS as Jesus Christ taught.

The Bible warns that such grudges will eventually destroy you.
---Augie on 9/13/10


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