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Are Choirs Biblical

Music and singing are such an uplifting part of life with humanity, and Scripture speaks of it many times. But I cannot recall Jesus speaking of choirs or music. Is there something I missed?

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 ---Geraldine on 9/19/10
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\\You have elevated Mary way beyond her station, of being highly favored among women, as the Bible speaks of her being.
---mima on 9/27/10\\

mima, the Greek words in Luke 1 is KEChARITOMENOI, which has as its root the word ChARIS--the same word the KJV elsewhere renders as "grace."

Just another example where the KJV translators fudged things.
---Cluny on 9/28/10


Cluny ... I'm sorry if I misread you ... it did seem you mean I would say that

Mima ... I can understand your comment ... in fact my statement was incorrect! I meant if using the Rosary helped them in their prayers (as well it might, as a discipline and reminder of what to pray) there is no harm in it.

Perhaps now my post makes more sense!
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/27/10


\\Cluny, you challemge me "Of course, if CATHOLICS did them, they would automatically be called "vain repetitions", wouldn't they?"\\

Did I say YOU would call them that?

No, I didn't.
---Cluny on 9/27/10


By making this statement,"I understand that the Hail Mary helps RCs in their prayers to God. There's nothing wrong then in using it."
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/27/10

You have elevated Mary way beyond her station, of being highly favored among women, as the Bible speaks of her being.
---mima on 9/27/10


Cluny, you challemge me "Of course, if CATHOLICS did them, they would automatically be called "vain repetitions", wouldn't they?"

My answer is "Yes many here may say that, but I would not"

Vain means useless (in vain) and I have never said that repetition of prayer is necessarily useless. Whatever the prayer is, (even from an RC!)if it is prayed to God honestly and in faith, it cannot be useless.

I understand that the Hail Mary helps RCs in their prayers to God. There's nothing wrong then in using it.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/27/10




Donna ...there is nothing wrong with listening ... and I hope you will agree there is nothing wrong with preferring to join in.

And if all the congregation stop singing and the choir goes on and an as rehearsed?
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/27/10


\\What's wrong with just listening with a worshipful attitude sometimes?\\

My sentiments exactly.

LISTENING attentively and intelligently and prayerfully is participation as well.

I admit I'm sometimes silent, listening to the robust singing, but it's never long, and I get drawn back in.
---Cluny on 9/26/10


What's wrong with just listening with a worshipful attitude sometimes? Silent adoration should also have a place. If I get tired of singing after the eighth or tenth repetition of a chorus, I just quit singing.
---Donna66 on 9/26/10


BTW, alan8566_of_uk, you never explained just WHY repetition of praise choruses should be spontaneous.

Of course, if CATHOLICS did them, they would automatically be called "vain repetitions", wouldn't they?

And if HINDUS or BUDDHISTS did them, they would be called "mantras."

Am I right?

Sounds like a double standard to me.
---Cluny on 9/26/10


\\The congregation said/sang nothing, just stood up and knelt at the appropriate times.

Prayers, Lords Prayer, hymns, psalms, responses, confession all sung by the choir only.\\

In my journey through Anglicanism, the congregation always sang the responses. The only thing the Choir sang alone was an anthem at the offertory and collection.

Same where I go now. Only the cantors sing the propers.
---Cluny on 9/26/10




THE SAME AUTHOR OF THE NEW IS THE OLD. Jesus is the author of both. God obviously saw fit not to make both Old and the New exactly alike. Got it....Ha, Ha, Ha.
---catherine on 9/26/10


\\Cluny, re what Biblical means, thank you for bringing this into such great focus.\\

The main thing I try to do here is to get people to think, Geraldine.

If I have helped you to do that, and bring your beliefs into sharper focus, I'm glad I could help you.
---Cluny on 9/26/10


Cluny ... that is the point.

I think when we go to be in the congregation, we expect to join in, not just watch a performance.

I am reminded of the church we had to go to when our banns were read. It was v high Anglican. The congregation said/sang nothing, just stood up and knelt at the appropriate times.

Prayers, Lords Prayer, hymns, psalms, responses, confession all sung by the choir only.

OK for some, but not for me thanks
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/26/10


\\And repeats on modern worship songs SHOULD be spontaneous (particularly if there are lots of them)\\

Why?

As I've said, large ensembles have to know what to expect when they are playing before others.

The issue of the congregation not singing is an entirely different one that you see I'm not dealing with here--only what's involved if you have an orchestra.
---Cluny on 9/26/10


Cluny ... Grade 8 is the top attainment in musicianship .. once you are at grade 8 you can become professional.
So this orchestra and choir were top flight (almost) musicians
And this was a church service, where worship should be corporate, with the congregation taking part.
What we had was a performance and an audience.
And repeats on modern worship songs SHOULD be spontaneous (particularly if there are lots of them)
It was all so artificial the congregation (audience) enjoyed listening to the worship, I did not get the impression they themselves were worshipping
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/25/10


\\Then I realsied that the choir and orchestra all had to have at least Grade 7, and everything was rehearsed to perfection, including the repeats in the songs\\

I'm not too sure what you mean by "Grade 7" in this context, but are you saying that the choir and especially orchestra should go into a service expecting to simply wing it in a spontaneous free-wheeling series of random events that because of its lack of preparation claims to be more spiritual?

I don't know how familiar you are with large instrumental ensembles, such as bands and orchestras, but trust me, things need to be rehearsed.

Otherwise you wind up with disedifying cacaphony.
---Cluny on 9/25/10


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I once attended a church ... quite a big & successful one, aand the music was uplifting, super sound, choir orchestra & organ

Then I realsied that the choir and orchestra all had to have at least Grade 7, and everything was rehearsed to perfection, including the repeats in the songs

And the sound from the performers was so good that the congregation (sorry, no they were the audience) did not need to sing

Geraldine ... I agree with you!!
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/25/10


Cluny, re what Biblical means, thank you for bringing this into such great focus. To me, the Bible is a love story about how love leads us to do as MUCH as we can to involve that love with others. God is pleased to see us love our neighbors because we first loved Him. This conversational topic has clarified my own beliefs to me, and I appreciate your help in it, Cluny. And I guess I "left the ring" only in my mind.
---Geraldine on 9/25/10


\\Cluny - Rather than elaborate, I'll try to sum up: Love is the feeling that leads to kindness.\\

I'm sure that God expects more of us than being kind to Him.

Again, love is NOT a feeling. It's a decision.
---Cluny on 9/25/10


Something here--and in fairness to the original poster, she did not give the title of the blog--that needs to be determined, and that is the meaning of the title of the blog.

What does "Biblical" mean here? Doing no more than what the Bible actually enjoins? Or doing things that the Bible does not actually forbid?

It seems that some people mean one thing, and some mean the other. Geraldine seems to mean the first.

\\Cluny, your comment about "feelings" pulled me back into the ring\\

Geraldine, I'm not aware you ever left the ring.
---Cluny on 9/25/10


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Cluny - Rather than elaborate, I'll try to sum up: Love is the feeling that leads to kindness. Choirs, quartets, duets, start with love that can result in a good work. Whether the singing is in a brush-arbor or a cathedral it can please God if it is from the heart, and not from an attitude of "Hey, get a load of what I can do!" This may not be the elaboration you requested, but "keep it simple" is my haven.
---Geraldine on 9/25/10


\\I assume you view LOVE as something other than a feeling,\\

Yes, love is something other than a feeling (though feelings may accompany love), and this is what not only 1 Cor 13 says, but Jesus Himself in many places.

In any case, getting back to your original question, it makes an assumption that you have not yet proven.

On what basis do you think Christian worship is to be limited to doing no more than what Jesus actually said?

Please elaborate.
---Cluny on 9/24/10


Cluny, your comment about "feelings" pulled me back into the ring. I assume you view LOVE as something other than a feeling, and 1 Corinthians 13 as not applicable to spiritual life.
---Geraldine on 9/24/10


Geraldine said: "I believe our senses of smell, sight,hearing and taste can easily lead us away from the invisible God made knowable in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit."

Careful there, Geraldine. Thomas Aquinas said something similar, and was silenced by the Pope.

Also, one who thinks this way treads close to Gnosticism, which claims that the physical senses are bad, and one can only come to God by "special knowledge" imparted by God to that person.
---ZedEx on 9/24/10


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BTW--you talk about knowing God by "feeling".

Our feelings are ephemeral and should not become the basis of our spiritual life.
---Cluny on 9/24/10


\\but AFTER we have the Holy Spirit indwelling, I don't believe we need to see, smell, touch, etc. to keep Him there, our hearts with God's love can do it all!
---Geraldine on 9/23/10\\

Geraldine, it's useless to be more spiritual than God.

He sanctifies ALL of us, including our senses.

God dignified our physical senses so much that He took on a human body, and is forever united to it with His Divinity.

One way that taste and touch help us keep close to God after the Holy Spirit's indwelling is through the Holy Eucharist: "Take, eat..... take, drink...."

There are many other similar patterns in the New Testament where God works through that nasty old matter you seem to despise so much.
---Cluny on 9/24/10


Okay Cluny, I'll give you half: BEFORE we receive the Holy Spirit maybe our physical senses help us to accept Christ as Savior, but AFTER we have the Holy Spirit indwelling, I don't believe we need to see, smell, touch, etc. to keep Him there, our hearts with God's love can do it all!
---Geraldine on 9/23/10


\\Cluny -- I believe physical senses may distract from what God wants us to feel and believe.\\

Since God invented our senses to help lead us to Him (after all, we are NOT pure spirits), He obviously disagrees with you.
---Cluny on 9/23/10


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Cluny -- I believe physical senses may distract from what God wants us to feel and believe. In Mark 14, Jesus approved of the village woman spilling fragrant ointment for him, and explained why. But the ointment did not lead her to Love, Love led her to giving the ointment. ---And objects of physical senses like weather, money, statues, possessions can be misused as "signs" of God's favor or disfavor.---In commanding incense, I am sure God forgives those allergic to it.
---Geraldine on 9/23/10


Yes(christians) will all be part of the heavenly choir, one day. If we hold on to our faith and make our journey,successfully. Singing and rejoicing is very biblical. Playing tambourines and other musical instruments are mentioned throughout the bible. Dancing is also mentioned.In Revelations ch 5, it speaks of millions of angels singing in the heavenly choir. Which I hope to be a part of,one day. I hope you do,too. Songs/ hymns are a natural part of of my church service. So is dancing,shouting and praising God. Without it, our churches would be dull, dry and pointless,for the most part.
---Robyn on 9/23/10


\\ I believe our senses of smell, sight,hearing and taste can easily lead us away from the invisible God made knowable in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit.\\

On what basis do you believe that?

Obviously, God didn't think so. He invented our senses.

He COMMANDED the use of incense.

And if sight and hearing can lead us away from God, then following this line of reasoning, we should not read the Bible or hear it read aloud, lest we be led away from God by our senses of sight and hearing.

As you see, you're being inconsistent.
---Cluny on 9/23/10


Cluny - About "follow", I am experiencing trouble following your thinking about the the ceremonial fragrance in church. I believe our senses of smell, sight,hearing and taste can easily lead us away from the invisible God made knowable in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit.I appreciate your leading me to clarify, but if there are glorious things to discover down that path, they will come more slowly for me.
---Geraldine on 9/22/10


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\\Cluny--I used the word "follow" both old and new testaments in the sense of HEART following and MIND following, not ceremony. \\

How do the heart and mind follow invisible and non-existent incense?
---Cluny on 9/22/10


Cluny--I used the word "follow" both old and new testaments in the sense of HEART following and MIND following, not ceremony. In the matter of music and harmony the word ceremony gets complicated. And even chants, I believe, can be from the heart. Candles and fragrances could well be, too, although my church is less formal.
---Geraldine on 9/21/10


But to go into the issue more would simply prove my point that NOBODY really believes in Sola Scriptura, at least in the sense of doing nothing not clearly required therein.
---Cluny on 9/19/10
Sola Scriptura says (and you know I follow it)
Psalm 150:6
Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD

Actually ALL of Psalm 150

Psalm 47:1,Jeremiah 31:4,13, Ex. 15:20-21, 2 Sam. 6:5,14-16, Psalm 32:11, Psalm 71:23, Psalm 81:1, Isa 12:6
To everything there is a time and a season!
---ginger on 9/21/10


\\Milla--I do follow both old and new testaments\\

Does that mean you use incense in your church, geraldine?

We do.
---Cluny on 9/21/10


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Milla--I do follow both old and new testaments, but words of Jesus are especially close. My question came from the thought of God giving us music harmony as a gift, and while singing together people aren't sinning. Another thought: maybe we overdo solos, which tend to feed pride.
---Geraldine on 9/21/10


God is Omnipotent the only way we can appreciate Him is thru Worship and Praise. What else can we do for God that is why King David says in Psalms 117 O Praise the LORD, all ye nations: praise Him, all ye people.
The choirs ushers us unto the presence of God thru parise and worsip.
Many youth have received Jesus' thru the choir ministry am one of them.
I was touched by the music in church.

My dear do you mean you only follow the New Testament? Jesus may not have tackled this but check what God did in the Old Testament thru music. The walls of Jericho fell after seven days and many many more.
God Bless you.
---Milla on 9/21/10


Choirs and chanting were an intrinsic part of Jewish worship in both Temple and Synagogue, as well as in domestic piety.

The Scripture says that Jesus not only took part in these services, frequented them, but even took leading roles at Jewish worship.

Matthew 26:30 and Mark 14:26 say that Jesus and the Apostles sang a hymn (most likely Psalm 114 Hebrew) after the Last Supper.

Where do you think Christians got the custom of singing at worship, to start with, except from our Lord's own example and ancient tradition?

But to go into the issue more would simply prove my point that NOBODY really believes in Sola Scriptura, at least in the sense of doing nothing not clearly required therein.
---Cluny on 9/19/10


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