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Are Women Preachers Biblical

Where in the Bible does it say that there shouldn't be woman preachers? Or does it say that it's okay? In other words, what does the bible say about woman preachers?

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 ---Lynne on 9/22/10
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2/2
1Corinthians 14:33-37(!), 38, means that we are to reject those who reject Paul's instructions here. Women speaking in the Churches, "silence", "not permitted", "under obedience" (Genesis 2:18, 3:16), "shame" G149. 1Timothy 2:8-15, males G435 "lifting up holy hands" means 'ministering'. v. 11-12, silence with all subjection / silence. v. 13-14 means that these rules precede the fall and applies to you today, Genesis 3:16 (4:7). Also, Acts 4:19 & 5:29 instruct Christians to disobey orders contrary to the Lords will.
Romans 12:2, 1Corinthians 3:19-20, Philippians 3:15-19, Colossians 2:8, 3:5-8, James 4:4, 1John 2:15, Revelations 2:19-25.


---Glenn on 9/30/10


1/2
Women are not to take on those things that pertained to men include doctrine, preaching, prophesy, psalms, revelation, teaching, tongues and interpretation, which would be to "usurp authority over the man". Genesis 1:27, shows that there is an important distinction between the sexes. 1Corinthians 11:3-16, God, Christ, Man, Woman. A rebellious women is said to be uncovered, and short hair equals wanting to be, or acting like, a man (Deuteronomy 22). v. 16 "we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." Is yours a church of God?
p.s. In 1Timothy 2:12, teach in the first clause stands alone, and is not subject to 'over the man' in the second clause (v. 15, Titus 2:3-5).
---Glenn on 9/30/10


scriptures regarding women being silent in the church and not leading men refers to individual cases and was not a universal injunction against women being pastors
*****

in the worlds churches women serving leadership roles is here to stay - the world believes in equality seeking to ignore and discredit The Father in Heaven as being a sexist with no clue about what HE inspired in Holy Scriptures ...as Holy Scripture states the world serves another christ

TRUE church IS the called out ones who serve the Biblical Christ in truth and spirit ...spiritual discernment isn't required to comprehend Christ had no female Apostles ...Holy Scripture did not have an ooops when all the verses pertaining to leadership ONLY speak about MEN
---Rhonda on 9/30/10


A church has the rights and authority to call whomever they wish to be their pastor.

Since women pastors receive the same basic training as do men, and work under the same pay and position descriptions, there should not be any difference.

I believe that the scriptures regarding women being silent in the church and not leading men refers to individual cases and was not a universal injunction against women being pastors.

In any case women pastors are here to stay.



---leej on 9/30/10


Genesis 3:1, 6 ..."Yea, hath God said"..., ..."she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat". 1Corinthians 11:1-(16), 14:33-38, 1Timothy 2:8-15. By making reference to Adam and Eve, Paul applies these verses to all their descendants. The ministry titles in Mathew 23:10-11, Acts 20:28, Philippians 1:1, 1Timothy 3:1-10, 12-13, Titus 1:7, etc. are masculine nouns, and the use here forces you to refer only to men in these positions of leadership. Also, Genesis 2:18, 20, 3:16-19 (Eve desires to rule over Adam / 4:7, sin desires to rule over Cain), Numbers 12 (Miriam, not Aaron, gets leprosy), Deuteronomy 22:5, Isaiah 3:12-4:1, 32:9-14, Amos 4:1-4.
p.s. Kathr4453, please use quotation marks and give proper attribution.
---Glenn on 9/30/10




First off I see that some deny the written word of God because of their answers.

Women are not to lead because the word was given to man first. If you believe in God then you follow the instructions that Our Lord and Saviour gives us through the Apostle Paul because he was a chosen vessel of God to go unto the Gentiles,Kings and the children of Israel which means the whole human race.

Actually the Churches aren't even structured per the way Jesus instructed his Apostles to do.
---Royll on 9/30/10


So idealy we can have have a male pastor in charge of the church(NEVER A FEMALE IN CHARGE) and a female preacher / pastor may preach and teach under his authority.
---francis on 9/30/10

Amen Francis. We are on the same page.

We have to really look at the fact that we need women in positions in the Body of Christ.
If a woman needs to be counciled, we can't send a man to do it. That would bring suspicion(spell?) and go against what the Bible tells us about not giving place to the devil.
Each person in the Body has been given a gift by God to be used. And it must be done in servitude and LOVE, not creating a stumbling block.
---ginger on 9/30/10


God gave one man authority and headship over a woman in Genesis 3:16,and that is a husband over a wife. Where it tells women to keep silence in the church,be under obedience,as thus says the law,the reference leads right back to Genesis 3:16 where God put the curse on women,it is the authority of their husband,no other had right to her obedience,and it continues and says let her ask her husband at home 1 Corinthians 14:34,35. It wasn't about men's authority over women,they didn't have any to begin with it is about order in the church and between husbands and wives. Footnotes in my Bible say women and men sat on different sides of the church and they were causing a disorder yelling back and forth. False doctrine women can't preach.
---Darlene_1 on 9/30/10


I am not saying that any of God's children are not to proclaim the gospel. It was the women that first proclaimed the resurrection. It is the offices mentioned that they are not to hold or seek. The Bible every time the qualifications are given uses a masculine term, not neuter. I hate to sound hard but if you do not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, traditions of man or the feeling of your heart. The latter two will lead you astray, male or female. The only thing we can base our preaching on is the Word Of God.
---Harold on 9/30/10


Also, is preaching actually having authority over a man?
---ginger on 9/29/10

How will they hear without a preacher? WHO need to hear here? The Lost! So, are men telling women they cannot proclaim the Gospel of salvation to a man? that that is usurping authority over a man?

also
2 Peter 2:5
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness,(TO THE LOST) bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly,
---kathr4453 on 9/30/10




kathr, Pastor means shepherd, and bishop means overseer, they are the samething in that the pastor and the bishop lead the sheep.
---Eloy on 9/30/10

Eloy they are not eh same thing.

PASTORS are listed in spiritual GIFTS in Ephesians 4 given to ALL the Body of Christ

A Deacon or Elder however is not a spiritual Gift. It is an OFFICE! prophesy, exhortation teachers service etc, are not offices either!

A Pastor can LEAD by example as scripture also states without even opening one's mouth.

Does not the other verse that says pastor state they are NOT to lord it over the church, but rather be examples.
---kathr4453 on 9/30/10


Also, is preaching actually having authority over a man?
---ginger on 9/29/10

I think this is very valid point that we may both be trying to make.
A pastor is over the congregation. A preacher, be it male or female, if they are not the pastor, preaches under the authority of the pastor.

So idealy we can have have a male pastor in charge of the church(NEVER A FEMALE IN CHARGE) and a female preacher / pastor may preach and teach under his authority.
---francis on 9/30/10


kathr, Pastor means shepherd, and bishop means overseer, they are the samething in that the pastor and the bishop lead the sheep. You are not a man, not a pastor, not a bishop, and no woman is. In the o.t. Jacob was a man, and the 12 sons of Israel were chosen and ordained to be the leaders of the twelve tribes of Israel, not the twelve weaker vessel daughters: Likewise in the N.T. the Lord God Jesus is a man, and the 12 apostles were 12 men chosen and ordained by the Lord Jesus to lead and instruct the sheep, not twelve women. This is God's order and the Lord's ordination, not any man's nor any woman's decision.
---Eloy on 9/30/10


Cluny, you have said some good things on here. Women, learn, for the leadership of the church is ordained by Christ to man, and not to woman. Women, if you want to have Bible studies, go to it, but your head is the man, just as Christ the man is the head of his body the church.
---Eloy on 9/30/10


\\I can't find pastor anywhere. Now I do see in Ephesians Jesus gave GIFTS to ALL that would certainly include woman...some teachers, pastors (which is at the bottom of the list)\\

Please show in the Bible where women were given to be pastor, bishops, or teachers. BCV, please.

And again, this verse says, "He gave gifts to MEN". It doesn't say "men and women".
---Cluny on 9/29/10


kathr4453, consider this:

Samson was a man, and a judge of Israel.

But he did not preach.

He did not prophesy.

Judging from his choice of companions (both male and female) he was probably not all that observant of the Jewish law or pious.

His suicidal destruction of the Dagon temple was not so much intended to liberate Israel as to exact personal revenge (which is not to say that it was not in God's providence).

Think about it.
---Cluny on 9/29/10


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\\1 Timothy 2:9-15.
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.\\

If you understood spiritual things, you would know that this is referring to the Orthodox tradition of mystical prayer. "Let the women preserve mystical prayer of silence," is not an inaccurate paraphrase.

\\Now is this a NEW LAW under Grace not found under OT LAW? What about Deborah?
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10\\

Deborah did not preach, and there is no evidence that she did.

You simply want to think so, so get that misconception out of your head.
---Cluny on 9/29/10


Francis,
I agree, prophecy and preaching are not the same. They do have one thing in common, the proclaiming of God's word.
That is all I was saying.

Also, is preaching actually having authority over a man?
Not from what I have seen. It is telling people they will go to hell if they don't turn from their wicked ways.
---ginger on 9/29/10


Acts 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Lets not mistake preacher and pastor

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers,
---francis on 9/29/10


\\Today, yes many a MAN will open his mouth without God speaking through them. Are THEY preachers because their men? \\

You seem to be saying that Deborah was a preacher because she was a woman.

||Eloy, I believe scripture states BISHOPS. I can't find pastor anywhere. Now I do see in Ephesians Jesus gave GIFTS to ALL that would certainly include woman...some teachers, pastors (which is at the bottom of the list)||

If it's in Ephesians it's therefore in scripture.

Actually, kathr, TEACHERS is at the bottom of the list--and in Greek "pastor" and "teacher" are separated by the Greek conjunction KAI (and), not by a comma (which didn't exist in Biblical Greek anyway.
---Cluny on 9/29/10


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Text without a context is a pretext.. It is a basic hermeneutical principle that, to be properly interpreted, passages must be considered in their immediate context, in their historical context, and in the context of the entirety of Scripture.


1 Corinthians 11:5
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.


Can one do that in silence? Does Paul promote burkas? Does this apply to today?

1 Timothy 2:9-15.
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Now is this a NEW LAW under Grace not found under OT LAW? What about Deborah?
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10


definition of preach:
Prokerusso(greek),
to announce or proclaim be herald beforehand to announce beforehand
basar(hebrew)
to bear news, bear tidings, publish, preach, show forth
(Piel)
to gladden with good news
to bear news
to announce (salvation) as good news, preach
(Hithpael) to receive good news

Prophet:
nabiy or na'um(hebrew)
spokesman, speaker, prophet utterance, declaration (of prophet)
utterance, declaration, revelation


I will let you all decide if to prophecy and to preach are the same.
One thing they have in common..proclaiming God's word.

Does being a preacher mean having authority over men? I don't see that.
---ginger on 9/29/10


Eloy, I believe scripture states BISHOPS. I can't find pastor anywhere. Now I do see in Ephesians Jesus gave GIFTS to ALL that would certainly include woman...some teachers, pastors (which is at the bottom of the list)

It is a man made idea that PASTOR mean leader and teacher and head over a congregation.

Paul in his instruction dealing with gentiles, and gentile woman, woman not allowed to learn and be instructed as men were in those days, and especially under Jewish law. When exactly now in our day were woman allowed to learn?
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10


kathr, When a saint says, Women are not to pastor, that is not antiwomen, but a fact instructed in God's word for Christians to obey. And God's crystal clear instruction is not up for any debate, but for the obedient to follow. Christians are not antiwomen, we are very much prowoman, however there are functions ordained by God that only men are to do, and there are likewise functions ordained by God that only women are to do. Carnal women desire to disobey God's order, as the first woman has done, and plunge the entire human race into sin rather than in obedience to God. Carnal women and carnal men are condemned and not saved, if they want salvation you must follow God's established order and not your own way.
---Eloy on 9/29/10


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\\I am amazed at those who are so anti woman. How many JUDGES were in Israel before Kings, and if we were discussing any other JUDGE (being men) no such conversations here or objections would be taking place.\\

But the judges didn't preach--be they male or female. NOBODY is denying (at least I am not) that Deborah was a judge of Israel, but that's not the same as preaching.

\\Did PROPHETS preach? Was Jeremiah a prophet? and would you consider his Prophesy preaching? I DO!
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10\\

Good for you. I don't. I'm sure there are others who don't equate prophecy with preaching, either.
---Cluny on 9/29/10


Prophets or Prophetesses are those GOD spoke through..God preached to His people through!

Today, yes many a MAN will open his mouth without God speaking through them. Are THEY preachers because their men?

God can and did speak to Baalam through a donkey! How humbling for Baalam that must have been! Maybe a woman would have been even more humbling!
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10


Kathr4453 I agree. The delivery may be different a Preacher,Prophet,OT Judge,Teacher,and any who operate in the Gifts of the Spirit to proclaim the law of God,the Gospel message,Gods will,to warn of Gods wrath-reprove are all preaching about God and His Word,way and will. The Gift of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost,tongues,prophecy,teaching and all the other gifts are given to male and female alike. 1 Timothy 3:1 This a true saying.If a man desire the office of a bishop he desires a good work. Men have claimed this as proof women can't lead but "if a man" isn't man at all,the Greek Lexicon shows it means "whoever or whatever" not man as traslated. That changes the meaning when "whoever desires" is used.
---Darlene_1 on 9/29/10


I am amazed at those who are so anti woman. How many JUDGES were in Israel before Kings, and if we were discussing any other JUDGE (being men) no such conversations here or objections would be taking place.

Due to your Ignorance of WHY God placed JUDGES and WHAT the Office of a Judge was is really over your heads.

Did PROPHETS preach? Was Jeremiah a prophet? and would you consider his Prophesy preaching? I DO!
---kathr4453 on 9/29/10


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shara, you are miscontexting and misapplying the scriptures to support sin. When Galatians speaks about people being baptized into Christ and that there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, and that all are one in Christ, that is speaking about God's grace is shed upon all baptized Christians, it is NOT saying there is no difference between people, neither is this passage advocating the sin of woman being pastors. To test this, try as a woman to go into a men's restroom and relieve yourself, and see if there is no difference, for indeed there is a real and godly difference.
---Eloy on 9/29/10


\\Judges were always chosen by God, and whenever they called for repentance the people responded. PREACHING!!\\

If you want to think she was preaching, you just go right ahead.

The adults know better.
---Cluny on 9/28/10


kathr4453:

I am amazed at all this information you are getting about Deborah, since the Bible itself mentions none of it. Deborah is mentioned in Judges 4-5, and nowhere else.

In particular, there is no mention at all of: preaching, nurturing, selfless leadership, focusing on the people, appreciation of Torah, functioning as teacher, "mother" being linked to patient nurturing of the nature back to spiritual health.

Do you have some source of divine revelation that the rest of us lack?

(Note that I am not saying that Deborah didn't do any of those things, just that the Bible is silent on the matter.)
---StrongAxe on 9/28/10


Judges were always chosen by God, and whenever they called for repentance the people responded. PREACHING!!

She referred to herself as a "Mother to Israel" and her commitment to nurturing fit this title. Deborah's leadership style was selfless, focusing on the people rather than on herself. This, together with her appreciation and knowledge of Torah and her prophetic gift, marked her for national rejuvenation.

While leading the nation, Deborah continued to function as judge, teacher and commander-in-chief, however, she saw herself primarily as "Mother to Israel." The word "mother" is linked to Deborah's patient nurturing of the nation of Israel back to spiritual health.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/10


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Jud 5:12 Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.
Heb 11:32-34 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae, [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Barak lead? A man of faith? Turned to flight the army of the aliens?
But, we should not belittle Deborah's advisory role as God's mouthpiece.
---micha9344 on 9/28/10


kathr4453:

You interpret what "mother" means based on your own opinions of what it ought to mean (i.e. reading between the lines), since the term is not one frequently used elsewhere in such a context with a well-known meaning. On the other hand, I go by what Judges actually says happened:

Deborah was a prophetess (Judges 4:4), judge (4:4-5), helped an army win a battle (4:6-24), sang praises to the Lord for the victory in that battle (5:1-31). If she did any preaching at all, the Bible makes no mention of it at all.

The book of Judges is all about judges in Israel, who had certain leadership responsibilities (judiciary and military roles, for example) without others (such as powers of taxation and conscription).
---StrongAxe on 9/28/10


Strongaxe, you fail to understand who Israel was. You certainly aren't comparing Israel to WWII? Good Heavens.

A Mother in Israel is = to Paul being a FATHER to the Church!!!

Awake Awake Oh Church! It seems many today have fallen asleep at the wheel!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/28/10


kathr4453:

The verses you quoted sound very much like the rise of a powerful military leader. There is not a single word about preaching here, nor about even a single word being spoken in any context.

I would not consider Generals like Douglas McArthur or Ulysses S. Grant to be preachers either, despite the fact that thier orders happened to win wars.
---StrongAxe on 9/28/10


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kathr4453:

This is not a blog about whether women can be prophetesses, juges, or singers. It is about whether women can be preachers. Can you cite any verse where Deborah preached?
---StrongAxe on 9/24/10

StrongAxe,

7The inhabitants of the villages ceased, they ceased in Israel, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel.

8They chose new gods, then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?

9My heart is toward the governors of Israel, that offered themselves willingly among the people. Bless ye the LORD.

Sounds like some mighty good preaching to me!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/27/10


My point is I can stand here and call myself a minister, Bishop, Deaconess but as long as I am willing to kid myself that when I go to heave God is going to call me Minister Carla. Bishop Carla or even Deaconess Carla, I will be sat sitting all day the gate waiting a very long time cos I know He'll be calling me by my name.

Further more He wont even recognise my self-ishness and forget he ever knew me, cos there are no biblical scriptures to tell me as a woman I am Called in the capacity of a title. I am just a help meet, servant of the lord, and even then I still pray for him not to reject ME, never mind the Titles.
---Carla on 9/27/10


The passage quoted about there being neither male nor female in Christ refers to the act of salvation. Neither men nor women have a higher standing when God elects a person to salvation.
In order of responsibility and His economy in the church the men are more accountable. As far as preaching, yes all are commanded to proclaim the gospel. As for the responsibility of the office of pastor God gave that to men.
Is the entire Bible the word of God, Paul in his epistles to Timothy say "all scripture is given by the inspiration of God." If you think parts are not of God, who is to decide and take the place of the Spirit. Please don't put me in that situation.
---Harold on 9/27/10


Ms. Mary: Yes, it could sould like that. But, why would God need to specifically tell Eve to desire her husband's LOVE? Isn't that a given in the situation? What's not a given is leadership. Eve either didn't understand or chose not to accept Adam's God-given authority over her. In Gen. 3, Eve clearly took the lead (matters in her own hands) & it culminated in disaster for us all. Sounds to me more like God was setting a definite boundary for Eve to stay within. :)
---Leon on 9/27/10


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I'm a ministor and female, my love for god is very strong. I mostly talk to womens groups and fill in for others when they are needed else where. I have a message to tell and feel all should hear. I do not feel I take on the mans place in the church nor would I. I'm glad to talk to anyone that will liston. I talk about a womens place and our missions in life. I HAVE ALSO TALKED ABOUT THE HAPPENINGS OF WHATS GOING ON IN TODAYS WORLD.
THANK YOU, MARIAN
---Marian on 9/27/10


Leon, it sounds to me more like she desires her husband's LOVE, not to lead the way!
---Mary on 9/27/10


Lynne, here's God's authorization & "RULE":

"Unto the woman he [God] said...your DESIRE [stretching out after, longing for] will be to your husband, and he will rule over you." (Gen. 3:16) In other words, even though you'll want to, don't go ahead of Adam's ruling (what he says). Follow your husband's lead, don't instruct him. Why? (1 Tim. 2:11-14)

"One that rules well his own house...(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?)..." (1 Tim. 3:1-13) Same pattern as in Gen. 3:16.

Question: Howbeit God tells man to rule, but, some people think it's okay for women to rule over (lead) men in the church of God?
---Leon on 9/27/10


Hello! we are the New Covenant believers. Gal.3:26-29,"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptizedinto Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greeks, slave or free, male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Therefore, it follows that all both male and female have the same obligations --to preach the gospel. Remember that the gospel is entrusted to all believers not just men --we are accountable for every blood that sins against God , may that person be a believer or unbeliever--Ez. 3:16-21
---shara on 9/27/10


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All Christians, men and children and women are to preach, namely, share the gospel with others. But as for pastors, only holy men ordained by Christ are to pastor the church, and not any weaker vessel of woman: "Moreover I permit not a woman to teach nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Viva. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." I Timothy 2:12-14+ Genesis 3:2-12.
---Eloy on 9/25/10


\\The first thing to establish is do you believe that the Bible is the word of God or do you think it only contains His word.\\

Are you saying that all of the Bible is the actual words of God?
---Cluny on 9/25/10


The first thing to establish is do you believe that the Bible is the word of God or do you think it only contains His word.
Paul in writing to Timothy explained that women were to learn in silence and if they have any question to ask the men of the household. God set Jesus as the head of the churches, a right he earned by his sacrifice for it. In creation man was created before women and given the responsibility of leadership. Woman was created next as a helper.
This is God's plan of responsibility, man cannot give it away. Also woman was deceived in the fall, false teachings sound as good as did Satan's lies. Do not be deceived, its about responsibility not gender.
---Harold on 9/24/10


\\Not only did Deborah preach, but SANG..I love the song of Deborah. Deborah was a prophet as well! Can't get any higher in leadership than this! ALL given to her by God Himself...GOD appointed Judges and Kings!!! Not by secular voting!

And Cluny secular matters??? really!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/24/10\\

In other words, kathr4453, you can give no example of Deborah preaching.

That's what I thought.
---Cluny on 9/24/10


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kathr4453:

This is not a blog about whether women can be prophetesses, juges, or singers. It is about whether women can be preachers. Can you cite any verse where Deborah preached?
---StrongAxe on 9/24/10


Kathr4453,

I posted this:

The Lord did use Deborah but he said it would be for no glory since Sicera would be delivered into the hands of a woman.
Women can be use when no men are willing but it is a shame to the unwilling men and for no glory.
---Frank on 9/23/10

The reference to no glory and a shame to the unwilling man is the same thing you posted only using different words. I paraphrased it rather badly.

Even though she judged and sang it wasn't a glory to men not willing to lead. It is a shame for men to refuse or be afraid and have a woman take their place.

It is a type and shadow of the church (bride, woman) never being equal unto the Lord. (man, husband)

Nothing sexist or chauvinistic.
---Frank on 9/24/10


The word of God also shows us that the Spirit of God came upon women and they prophesied such as Mary when she spake with Elisabeth.
Miriam sang when the Egyptians were slain and danced with a timbrel.
The Lord does delight in some women singing and dancing as it is a type and shadow of the church offering up praise unto the Lord.

But, a Bishop and a Deacon should be the husband of one wife. A man if at all possible.
---Frank on 9/24/10


Donna, the question on this blog is about women and preaching.

NOT about women leading in secular matters.

And please give one example of Deborah preaching.


---Cluny on 9/24/10

Not only did Deborah preach, but SANG..I love the song of Deborah. Deborah was a prophet as well! Can't get any higher in leadership than this! ALL given to her by God Himself...GOD appointed Judges and Kings!!! Not by secular voting!

And Cluny secular matters??? really!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/24/10


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The Lord did use Deborah but he said it would be for no glory since Sicera would be delivered into the hands of a woman.
Women can be use when no men are willing but it is a shame to the unwilling men and for no glory.
---Frank on 9/23/10

Frank, correction here, Deborah was a JUDGE in Israel. Before KINGS were Judges. Deborah told Barak concerning a BATTLE/ not Judgeship :

Judges 4:8-9


8And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.

9And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine( BARAK's) honour, for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. ---
---kathr4453 on 9/24/10


\\DEBORAH was a LEADER, that's the point you're missing my friend. And leaders appointed by God DO preach\\

Donna, the question on this blog is about women and preaching.

NOT about women leading in secular matters.

I don't see how I was wrong about insisting we stick to the subject and not drag in irrelevancies.

And please give one example of Deborah preaching.

God does not appoint women as pastors, elders, or bishops, though some claim the title.

And you will notice that I also said that preacher is NOT the same as pastor, elder, or bishop.
---Cluny on 9/24/10


\\Cluny - Pheobie was a Deacon, which if you look it up, means Pastor. They are the same thing. Also, Pricilla was appointed a home church Pastor along with her husband Aquilla\\

You are making the big mistake of conflating servants (deacons), elders (presbyters), and overseers (bishops) as the same thing.

I know Greek, and you clearly do not. The Bible clearly differentiates them as being three different orders.

There is no evidence that Priscilla was any of these orders.

Donna, I don't doubt that Deborah was a military leader (and possibly political one), but this is NOT the same as pastor, as any general will tell you.
---Cluny on 9/24/10


Deborah reigned when Paul wasn't even a twinkle in his Fathers eye let alone his mothers.

Things were so in Gods time when Gods was with the people, his will was not yet fulfilled. After Christ( fulfilled) Women preachers, leaders, Paul Pastor of all churches taught, it was not advisable that women teach or usurp Authority above MEN( not just Husbands)

Stop picking words out of the message( wife) to prove equality of the races or you follow the curse of adding to the word and so the curses written in it.... work it out sister'ins with fear and trembling.....

I would rather that women learn in silence as long as men preach the truth!!!!! it just gets ridiculous otherwise as it is now!!!!..
---Carla on 9/24/10


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Leslie: Are you saying "Phebe" & "Priscilla", etc., were, "...the husband of one wife."? (1 Tim. 3:12)

I believe deacons are potentially pastors in training, i.e., 1st, as a deacon chosen to attend to & meet the menial needs of the pastorate ~ 2nd, HE may later be ordained a minister-teacher then elder to meet delegated church spiritual needs ~ 3rd, HE may ultimately become a pastor-teacher to a flock in corporate church worship gatherings.

Yes, the Strong's Concordance refers to "deaconess", but, I've yet to find such a title mentioned in the Bible referring to female servants in church service. Have you? I know there are churches who ordain deaconess. Is doing so biblical?
---Leon on 9/24/10


//Cluny...just answer the blog question?... DEBORAH was a LEADER// Donna5535

Donna5535, I hope that you can see the irony in your response. we all share our opinions here of what little we know of the Truth. if you put something out there expect that it be returned to you in whatever manner. even rebuke, if received in the Spirit, can only make you grow.

anyway, i do not agree with everything he says, but i do not see Cluny's responses to anybody's blogs as unreasonable.

Carla has a very good response to the question on 9/23. She encourages women and I encourage the men to do what Carla said. You see a woman can preach to men and men can preach to women effectively if done in humility and Spirit.
---aka on 9/24/10


Paul was responding to correspondence he was received from specific churches and individuals we don't know the content of the letters that Paul's was responding to so we are effectively trying to make interpretations being able to listen to just one side of a telephone conservation. None of these letters were ever written for general publication they were personal correspondence to someone or a church. So you have to be able to use discernment about their interpretation as some statements are generally address and applicable to any modern reader, others are only applicable to a specific problem at a specific time and location and have no general applicability. Paul's comments about some women of Corinth, were just for Corinth at that time.
---Blogger9211 on 9/23/10


Cluny - Pheobie was a Deacon, which if you look it up, means Pastor. They are the same thing. Also, Pricilla was appointed a home church Pastor along with her husband Aquilla. I could go on, but you must learn of this for yourself (study to show yourself approved). The point is that Paul appointed women to be Pastors and leaders, so why would he say they are to be silent? It makes no since, and the reason why, is because this scripture in particular is ALWAYS taken out of context, and given a new meaning because man said so - NOT because God said so. We MUST stop putting words in God's mouth that he NEVER said - this includes ALL of the Bible.
---Leslie on 9/23/10


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\\Cluny - Why would Paul tell women to keep silent, then appoint women as Pastors\\

Please give ONE example of a woman being appointed by St. Paul as Pastor--that is, as presbyter (elder) or bishop.

Phoebe was a DEACONESS, not an elder or bishop.

Deacons, presbyters, and bishops are NOT the same.

In any case, this blog is talking about women PREACHING, not being pastors.

Again, these are NOT always the same.
---Cluny on 9/23/10


Cluny - Why would Paul tell women to keep silent, then appoint women as Pastors, if this is what is TRULY being said? He wouldn't, that would be double-mindedness - which the Bible says that is unstability. Are you saying Paul was drunk or unstable when he said this? This is why it is IMPORTANT to go with the WHOLE counsel of God, NOT pick out scripture and say that is what it says without other scripture to back it up. Scripture interprets scripture. In doing this, you create a whole new man-made doctrine (religion), which is what CULTS are built on. Either the Bible is TRUTH and you lie, or the Bible lies and you are God. You go with your opinion, NOT the Bible.
---Leslie on 9/23/10


\\As such, those commands could just as easily be read as "Let the wives keep silence in church" and "I do not allow wives to have authority over husbands" (which would place women specifically subordinate to their own husbands, but not all women in general subordinate to all men in general).\\

And this is where tradition--in this case the traditional understand of these passages as far as church order come is.

\\(I first saw this viewpoint proposed in Kenneth Hagin's book "The Woman Question").\\

Hagin is NOT a man I trust.
---Cluny on 9/23/10


But Deborah was not a preacher. Deborah was a military leader.
---Cluny on 9/23/10

Cluny, is there anyway that you can refrain yourself from picking apart someone else's responses and just answer the blog question?

Are you trying to flex your muscles and show us how smart you are. I realize the bible says study to show yourself approved, so I guess that's why you post here, you study and showing yourself approved.

DEBORAH was a LEADER, that's the point you're missing my friend. And leaders appointed by God DO preach. So you're WRONG Cluny. Please stop picking apart everyone's responses and just answer the blog question. Thank you very much.
---Donna5535 on 9/23/10


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GOD designed "marriage" to include a MAN as the head of the household, and a WOMAN to be the MAN's helper.

I believe that the same arrangement of the sexes should apply to the CHURCH. Because GOD designated MEN to be the leaders.

If a WOMAN desires to be "single", and the head of her own household, I see no reason why she can't also be the Pastor of her own church.

If a WOMAN is "married", I believe that she should voluntarily refrain from being a Pastor. Because GOD would like her husband -- the MAN -- to be the leader, and her be a "submissive" helper.

I've been to churches were the "husband" and "wife" were co-pastors. I didn't like those churches.
---Augie on 9/23/10


\\//God used Deborah to run a nation when God couldn't find a man to do it.//\\

But Deborah was not a preacher. Deborah was a military leader.
---Cluny on 9/23/10


The apostle Paul wrote that a pastor should be the husband of one wife. He wrote the same of deacons.
It doesn't take a lot of sense to see that a pastor or deacon should be a man.
The Lord did use Deborah but he said it would be for no glory since Sicera would be delivered into the hands of a woman.
Women can be use when no men are willing but it is a shame to the unwilling men and for no glory.
---Frank on 9/23/10


Cluny:

Yes, but doesn't Greek (like Hebrew and German and many other languages) use the same word for woman and wife, and the same word for man and husband?

As such, those commands could just as easily be read as "Let the wives keep silence in church" and "I do not allow wives to have authority over husbands" (which would place women specifically subordinate to their own husbands, but not all women in general subordinate to all men in general).

(I first saw this viewpoint proposed in Kenneth Hagin's book "The Woman Question").
---StrongAxe on 9/23/10


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Although this is debated to the point where people miss the whole point of the meaning of living in there last days especially mans rebellion towards their duty in the churches.

Women need to humble themselves and recognise that a true women of God would lead a nation and none but God whould understand her silent approach in terms of her not bragging to let the whole world know she indeed did this. Just as the spy who did her duty and died alone and would have had a paupers grave, Yet when the media found out,and reported it she was given a burial fit for a VIP.

Simularly store your trasures in the bank of heaven, pray secretly, God rewards openly......
---Carla on 9/23/10


//God used a donkey to talk to his prophet Baalam.// Women are not donkeys.

//God used Deborah to run a nation when God couldn't find a man to do it.// Did you notice that God chose her when the last man refused?
There is a direct relationship between the number of men who want to preach and the number of women who opposes the effort.
I am a single father of three little ones. However, I know my strengths and limitations as a man, and know that there is no way that I can give my kids what they need from a woman.
It's amazing how many women want to assume the role of a man when there are plenty of men available, and yet want kids and want a career and want a babysitter and want never realizing the true value of a real woman.
---aka on 9/22/10


God will grant authority and empower whom ever he chooses irrespective of gender to represent him, he as done so in the past and is doing so currently. And I would be very careful about criticizing his choices as it could come back to haunt you. As is am seeing a lot of bloggers prostituting scripture to support their own bigotry toward women in the clergy. This type of activity does not ingratiate one toward God.
---Blogger9211 on 9/22/10


\\There is NO where in the Bible that says that women are not allowed to be preachers. \\

How about, "Let the women keep silence in church," and "I do not allow women to have authority over men."
---Cluny on 9/22/10


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There is NO where in the Bible that says that women are not allowed to be preachers. This was a man-made law of persons that twist scriptures for their own benefit. The Bible talks about many women that were preachers such as Pheobe, Pricilla, and many others who were Pastors appointed by Paul. Paul did not have a problem with women as preachers, he even appointed some of them. Let us ALL go by the WHOLE counsel of God, and NOT take scripture out of context and twist it to say what we want it to say - let's go by ONLY what God says it says.
---Leslie on 9/22/10


I've got news for you folks...God used a donkey to talk to his prophet Baalam.

God used Deborah to run a nation when God couldn't find a man to do it.

God uses yielding vessels. God loves humility and honesty and one who is teachable and correctable...so it doesn't matter to God if you are male or female (the bible says so and I'll find that scripture that says, there is neither Greek nor Jew, nor male nor female, we are all one in Christ Jesus).

God can use anyone He wants to at anytime!
Keep that in mind please - study it in the bible.
---Donna5535 on 9/22/10


Many churches consider women preachers to be "evangelical feminism". Why?

In the Bible, GOD clearly states that MEN are to be the Leaders, Pastors, Teachers, etc. WOMEN are to be "submissive" and help MEN.

Ever since SIN entered the world, I believe that there have been problems. Not because GOD's plan was flawed. But because many MEN just aren't assuming their GOD-given roles. The result has been that many WOMEN have been forced to assume the leadership of: Churches, Government, and even in their own Homes!

Until MEN step up, and assume the roles that they should, WOMEN will be assuming those roles for MEN. Nothing wrong with that. GOD is giving MEN more "time" to WAKE UP and LEAD!
---Sag on 9/22/10


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