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10 Commandments Before Moses

Did the nation of Israel have the ten commandment prior to Moses bringing the tablets down from the mountain?

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 ---leej on 9/22/10
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Here are all ten commandments before the birth of Moses

1: NO OTHER GODS: Genesis 2:17
2: NO IDOLS: Genesis 35:4
3: NAME IN VAIN: Genesis 6:2
4: SABBATH: Genesis 2:3
5: HONOUR PARENTS: Genesis 9:24
6: MURDER: Genesis 4:23
7: ADULTERY: Genesis 39:9
8: THEFT: Genesis 31:19
9: LIE: Genesis 3:4
10:COVET: Genesis 3:6
---francis on 10/5/10


Francis - you always give me very easy questions to answer.

The covenant I belong to (as does all Christians) is the one God made with Israel that INCLUDED anyone- Jew or Gentile- that would believe.

And it was that covenant that was UNLIKE (or not according to) the one He made solely with Israel when He lead them out of Egypt. Hebrews 8:9, Jer. 31:32

It reflects the ministry of the Spirit and not that ministry of death and condemnation written on letters of stone. 2 Cor. 3:7,9
---leej on 10/5/10


Awesome how you skipped verses 7 & 9, francis
Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
-And it is already explained how this New Covenant is offered also to the Gentiles.
-Which Laws you think God wrote in our hearts? Laws with words like 'adultery', 'steal', 'murder', an 'covet' or the 2 Royal Laws of Love which Jesus explains quite well covers all the law and the prophets? Hmmm 'Holy Spirit'?
In context....
---micha9344 on 10/5/10


leej on 10/5/10
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of ISRAEL after those days, saith the Lord, I will put MY LAW into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Which House do you belong to?
And which Laws are in your heart?
---francis on 10/5/10


Jerry6593,
It is clear that God made his covenants with the nation of Israel both in the time of Moses and in the time of the messiah (a prophet as unto Moses). And it is clear that the generations prior to Moses were aware of some set of God given instructions/promises...however it is less clear whether or not the generations from Adam to Joseph were specifically given the 10 commandments.
---AG on 10/5/10




Heb 8:8 ... Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Jerry in choosing to be blind ignores the next verse -.

(8:9) Not according to (or unlike) the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not...

He wants desperately to believe the Old Covenant and the New Covenant differ only by location - that God wrote all 600+ laws of the Old Covenant onto the heart of believers.

In continuing to follow the terribly bad theology of Ellen White, he will remain confused and frustrated in his religious beliefs.
---leej on 10/5/10


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Very true Jerry, but Abraham had 2 children, one from the slave woman and the other from free woman (Gal. 4:22f). You are heirs according to the promise if and only if you are of that covenant represented by Jerusalem above, NOT of that covenant given at Mt. Sinai symbolized by Hagar who is bearing children for slavery. You know that place where the 10 commandments were written on stone which Scripture depicts as the ministry of death and condemnation. 2 Cor. 3:7,9

You really should stop listening to that spirit that lead Ellen White and instead listen to what the Spirit of God is telling you in Holy Scripture.
---leej on 10/5/10


micha9344 on 10/4/10 why would Israel need a Sabbath at this time:
Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe, and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Did the sabbath come WITH the covenant or BEFORE the covenant?
---francis on 10/5/10


Steven G, you said,
"If one would read the bible from beginning to end several times without the use of concordances, dictionaries and other christian refernece books, he would know the false teachers from the true, the false prophets from the true."
Maybe what you should do is study from the Bible using concordances, dictionaries and studies from great teachers that God equiped to help others. The reason is, if you miss interpret something, there is no way for you do find the Truth. Since all fail in life, you might fail in your wisdom and follow a wrong concept. And from there, in the end find out you were always wrong. Because you were stubburn, refusing to get any help. Which would be pride.
---MarkV. on 10/5/10


Lee: "He gave it to the Jews as a SIGN OF THE COVENANT He made ONLY with them."

Gee, isn't that who He made the new covenant with?

Heb 8:8 ... Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If you are not a member of spiritual Israel, then you are not Christ's. You need to be "graffed in" (Rom 11:19). You need to be born again!
---jerry6593 on 10/5/10




Yet God did not require rest (sabbath) on that day until the Covenant with Israel, unless you can show it to me in the Abrahamic, Adamic, or Noahic Covenants.
God didn't even tell Israel what day the seventh was until Exo 16:23
God started the manna on the first day Exo 16:4-5
Exo 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, [from] before the people.(except the seventh day?)
Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day. (first time recorded, all else is speculation)
Exo 16:29a See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath(sabbath means rest)
---micha9344 on 10/4/10


steveng - I have been a serious student of the Bible for the past 50 years and have read the Bible at least 2 dozens times from cover to cover in several different versions. Plus having taken college level courses in it, I do not believe your advice to read the Bible in order to accept your interpretation is really useful.

Yes while God sanctified the 7th day at Creation, He nowhere commanded it of anyone until the Hebrew people left Egypt.

As I stated before the Sabbath was merely a SIGN of the covenant He made only with them. It foretold of the rest believers have in Christ (Hebrews 4 explains that much).

Furthermore, the Jerusalem council did NOT mandate the Sabbath to Gentile believers. Acts 15 is very clear on that.
---leej on 10/4/10


leej: "God did NOT give any command to observe the Jewish Sabbath UNTIL the time of Moses and no one observed it prior to Moses."

Instead of listening to pastors and the different opinions of authors, try reading the bible. Re-read Genesis Chapter 2 verses one through three again. Then look up the definition of the word "sanctified." God santified that day thousands of generations before the birth of the nation of Israel.

If one would read the bible from beginning to end several times without the use of concordances, dictionaries and other christian refernece books, he would know the false teachers from the true, the false prophets from the true.
---Steveng on 10/4/10


The fulfillment of the Sabbath is now found in the person, the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." - Mark 2:28

The Christian now worship God (the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) 24/7. Going to "church" once a week does not make one a Christian. Being born of the Spirit by the will of God makes one a Christian and when you are born of the Spirit - you WILL worship God in "Spirit and in Truth" - everyday of your life and into eternity.

Do not be led by the traditions of man. The question is, are you being led by the Holy Spirit?
---christan on 10/4/10


1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Ro 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Those that claim that they are sinless or must become sinless to be saved simply do not understand what the Scripture says on this issue.

If ones own effort to become righteous could save one, then one would not need Jesus as the Savior.

Adventists for instance, truly believe that they must become like Jesus to merit eternal life.
---leej on 10/4/10


Leej, I hear the same from those who claim to be sinless. They do not understand that under the law no one could be save. No matter how many times they sacrificed, it had to be a continuous thing because everyone sins. But those who except the promise through faith, have only One Sacrifice for sin forever. What the law could not do, Christ did.
Hebrews 10:8-10 tells us that Jesus did the will of His Father, "He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" They think themselves sinless but forget that Christ righteous is what covers us.
Maybe they don't believe it but they should understand the passages.
---MarkV. on 10/4/10


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steveng-//God would not give the command to observe the Sabbath on the seventh day of creation, then take it away, then give it to the Jews, then take it away during these end times, and then reinstall it in the soon-to-come new earth.

God did NOT give any command to observe the Jewish Sabbath UNTIL the time of Moses and no one observed it prior to Moses.

He gave it to the Jews as a SIGN OF THE COVENANT He made ONLY with them.

Exodus 31:17 It (the Sabbath) is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
---leej on 10/3/10


francis -1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

end of story
-----
And the simple minded would never admit that His commandments are basically 2 -

1- to believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and 2 - to love one another.

1 John 3:22-24 says it all.

The poorly educated always interpreted 'commandments' to mean '10 commandments'. But such is the religion peddler.
---leej on 10/2/10


So francis wasnts to obey all the ten commandments so that he can become sinless?

Sorry, but all your efforts will be in vain
"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe". Galatians 3:22 (KJV)

In the ESV "But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe".

When are you going to acknowledge that fact that you must receive the promise by faith of Jesus that you may be saved eternally despite your own efforts to be a holy person and merit salvation?
---leej on 10/2/10


God would not give the command to observe the Sabbath on the seventh day of creation, then take it away, then give it to the Jews, then take it away during these end times, and then reinstall it in the soon-to-come new earth.

The new covenant is like a home mortgage, the laws are the same, but the terms are different. Take circumcision, it was once a physical act, but it is now a spiritual act: circumcision of the heart.

We need the Sabbath more today than anything in history what with christians spending most of their day with computers, ipods, entertainment, work, family, friends, school, church, and even bible study. And not enough time with God.
---Steveng on 10/2/10


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Acts 13:42 (KJV)when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

The KJV uses 'Gentiles' instead of 'proselytes'.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Jews were scattered throughout the Roman Empire and were citizens of other nations.

Proselytes. Those who had been converted to the Jewish religion from among the Gentiles.

The Jerusalem council Acts 15 did not require Gentile believers to become proselytes or converts to Judaism.

Adventists deliberately ignore that neither circumcision or other distinctive Mosaic laws such as the Sabbath were imposed on Gentile converts.
---leej on 10/1/10


1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

end of story
---francis on 10/1/10


To make your point, you deliberately do not quote the entire verse -

Es 8:17 And in every province, in every city, whithersoever the kings commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews, for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

It was important to have the 'right' religion - same as those in power possesses. Note that the Jew Mordecai was promoted to a position of great authority.

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, ..love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,

The Sabbath was a distinctive observance ONLY of the Jewish nation.
---leej on 10/1/10


If they became Jews, why would they not follow the Jewish Sabbath?
And, again francis, you forgot to add Isa 66:24 to your context, which shows dramatically that Isa 66:22-23 is not about the New Earth, but does show the similarity to such (notice the word 'as' in verse 22).
Really francis, we have been down this road before, yet you continue to take these verses out of context to push your doctrine.
Noone here can make you understand.
Only God can give any of us the wisdom and understanding to rightly divide truth.
You also reference Isa 56:6, To which covenant does this refer? To which covenant do you hold?
Jeremiah 31:31-34
---micha9344 on 10/1/10


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AG//The NT test fails to explicitly address the sabbath (to observe or not).

Very true, any good church historian would tell us that the Jewish faction of the early church continued in the Mosaic traditions even going to the temple as often as possible.

Act 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,...

However, circumcision & other Mosaic laws such as the Sabbath was not required of Gentile believers.

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
---leej on 10/1/10


leej: "Steveng - while true that God set aside the 7th day of rest during creation, He nowhere commanded its observance except to the Jewish nation after they left Egypt under Moses. Only the Jews observed the Sabbbath hence, the Sabbath is Jewish."

The jews were to bring God's law to the world.


leej: "Finally, if the Jewish Sabbath (like circumcision and other unique Mosaic laws) would have been imposed on the Gentile church, the spread of Christianity would have been greatly hindered as Saturday was considered a workday in the Gentile world."

The ten commandments were not part of the mosaic law. Do an online KJB bible search for "Sabbath."
---Steveng on 10/1/10


francis: "First and formost ALL COMMANDMENTS have to do with worship. For when we obey God we worship him, and when we disobey God we worship another."

Bad logic. Your answers are trying to define spiritual wisdom with worldly knowledge. Commandments and worship are two completely different words. The only word that brings all together is LOVE.
---Steveng on 10/1/10


leej,
The NT test fails to explicitly address the sabbath (to observe or not). However this not the only commandment of the original ten that the NT fails to explicitly address.
---AG on 10/1/10


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Would you say that PROSELYTES were Jews, or are they none jews?

Acts 13:43 Jews and religious PROSELYTES followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:10 Jews and PROSELYTES

Esther 8:17 the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land BECAME JEWS ( WONDER IF THEY KEPT THE SABBATH ALSO?)

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, ..love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,



---francis on 10/1/10


Where is it stated that Israel's Sabbath day rest requirement will be reinstituted in the New World?

---micha9344 on 9/30/10

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,
---francis on 10/1/10


Steveng - while true that God set aside the 7th day of rest during creation, He nowhere commanded its observance except to the Jewish nation after they left Egypt under Moses. Only the Jews observed the Sabbbath hence, the Sabbath is Jewish.

Secondly, nowhere in the New Covennat is the observance of the Jewish Sabbath commanded nor is breaking the Sabbath listed as a sin.

Finally, if the Jewish Sabbath (like circumcision and other unique Mosaic laws) would have been imposed on the Gentile church, the spread of Christianity would have been greatly hindered as Saturday was considered a workday in the Gentile world.
---leej on 10/1/10


The Sabbath Commandment, as originaly given, had NOTHING to do with worship.
---Cluny on 9/30/10
First and formost ALL COMMANDMENTS have to do with worship. For when we obey God we worship him, and when we disobey God we worship another.

Ezekiel 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
---francis on 10/1/10


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Where is it stated that Israel's Sabbath day rest requirement will be reinstituted in the New World?
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Don't forget Isa 66:24
---micha9344 on 9/30/10


leej: "Thus we can agree that there is no longer any necessity to observe the old Jewish Sabbath as it simply foretold that rest we would have in Jesus."

The Sabbath is not a jewish sabbath. The sabbath was ordained by God thousands of years before Israel became a nation, before the birth of Moses.

God is the same before, now, and forever. Why would God have mankind observe the Sabbath, take it away during the end times, and then reinstall it in the new world?
---Steveng on 9/30/10


Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

frances - the word 'For' in the verse is significant as it refers to the previous verses and needs be interpreted in regard to the decision of the Jerusalem council that Gentiles were not to be burdened by Mosaic laws.

Whenever both Gentiles and Jewish Christians were involved in the Jewish synagogue worship (where Moses was read every Sabbath), it was important for the sake of unity that Gentiles Christians respected the traditions of those who had roots in Judaism.

However, the model for the early church was individual homes (Rom. 16:5, 1 Cor 16:19, Col.4:5, Phil. 1:2).
---leej on 9/30/10


\\All christians, and those interested in God gathered themselves EVERY SABBATH.\\

The "theoufovoumenoi" frequented synagogues until Christian congregations became distinct when the Jews drove Christians out of synagogues, but the Sabbath Commandment, as originaly given, had NOTHING to do with worship.
---Cluny on 9/30/10


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Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

What difference did it make to the gentile converts that Moses of old was preached every sabbath day?

All christians, and those interested in God gathered themselves EVERY SABBATH.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the GENTILES besought that these words might be preached to them the NEXT SABBATH.
Acts 13:44 And the NEXT SABBATH day came almost THE WHOLE CITY together to hear the word of God.

If someone asked you when can they hear the word of God, you would probably say every sunday, you would be wrong: even today it is every sabbath, not every Sunday.
---francis on 9/30/10


The Law of God only served one purpose to mankind. Paul says in Romans 3:19,20 -

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
---christan on 9/30/10


Cluny
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, Isaiah 66:23 and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Hebrews 4:4 And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
---francis on 9/30/10


People will always find excuses for thier sin. 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The SeventhDay BAPTIST says we are not under law but under grace when they want to eat things unclean.

There is another group of SeventhDay.. whose men lay with men,and women lay with women they also claim it is OK because they are not under law but under grace.

Then we have those who do as they please, and say that they do so because they are not under law but under grace, they are free in christ

Fact is: Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness?
---francis on 9/30/10


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francis -//
All TEN COMMANDMENTS are repeated in the NT books:

Yes, we can even see from your reference in Hebrews that there is a rest for those who have come to believe in Christ (4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.) Our salvation is in Christ not in our own works.(Eph. 2:8-10)

And we note that those who believe have entered into His rest.

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest,...

Thus we can agree that there is no longer any necessity to observe the old Jewish Sabbath as it simply foretold that rest we would have in Jesus.

And even circumcision became that of the heart not of the flesh.
---leej on 9/30/10


\\All TEN COMMANDMENTS are repeated in the NT books:
\\

francis, please tell us where the Saturday Sabbath is of PRECEPT and enjoined on Gentile Christians in the New Testament.

Give BCV.
---Cluny on 9/30/10


All TEN COMMANDMENTS are repeated in the NT books:
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly COMPREHENDED in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother
---francis on 9/30/10


micha9344 Either you are saying that when you do not keep the sabbath you are guilty of breaking the law just as if you murdered or worshiped a false god: or you are saying that we are not to keep anyt of the laws, and thus just as you do not keep the sabbath you are also free to commit adultery and murder, and even surve other gods.

Also read these text prayerfuly:
Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly COMPREHENDED in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother,
---francis on 9/30/10


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The first seven days of creation established the days and the week. God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it establishing the first week of creation and the first commandment. God sanctified the seventh day and revealed it to Adam.

Now, the Israelites knew of God's law through word of mouth. They also obeyed the Sabbath law long before Moses gave it to them. God rewarded Israel when they were good and punished them when they were bad. God would not rewarded them if they only broke the Sabbath commandment. The Jewish people obey the Sabbath day today. If you overlay the Gregorain calendar on top of the Jewish calendar, it just so happens that the Sabbath falls on Saturday. It could have fallen on any other day.
---Steveng on 9/29/10


The second commandment was not to eat of a certain tree: Genesis 3:17. If sin is the transgression of the law then many people knew of the law (in their hearts) yet still sinned hundred of years before the birth Israel and of Moses. Genesis 4:7

The commandments of God was instilled into the heart of man from the beginning. As time went on, the hearts of the people grew cold and they did what pleased themselves. They turned their backs on God.

So God chose Moses to bring to the Israelites his laws that were written. The Israelites were suppose to bring the laws to the rest of the world, but they became selfish thinking that God loved them and no one else.
---Steveng on 9/29/10


It means all of them, for we follow the two Royal Laws now, not in fear, but in love.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
---micha9344 on 9/29/10


Interesting that Adventists always ignore scripture that does not support their belief that Christains need observe the Jewish Sabbath.

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

If not observing the Jewish sabbath was a sin then they would have full justification in telling others that they are in sin, but they are told in scripture not to.

Colossaians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This kind of thing happens when one falls into legalism and must find ways to measure their spirituality.
---leej on 9/29/10


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-micha9344 on 9/28/10
Where is this passage do you see anyth9ing about the sabbath? ( Acts 15, and 21: and Galations % and 6 )

Why does word LAW means sabbath and not to the rest of these:
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.
---francis on 9/28/10


Never in the early church was there any issues with the sabbath, or dietary laws.
---francis on 9/28/10
Of course not..It was settled in Acts.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
---micha9344 on 9/28/10


the books of the New testement are written for 2 reason
1: To correct doctrinal error
2: To encourage the saints

remember, the Apostles were not writing letters to the churches which they were present in. They wrote to churches away from them to help solve problems. If there were no issues they would not have a need to write.

Some issues that crept up were:
1: resurrection 2: Second coming, 3: Circumcision 4: Tongues, 5: meat sold in the market place, 5: Saints taking each other to court. 6: A young man sleeping with his step Mother 7: validity of pauls ministery, 8: Lord's supper, Diety of christ, ETC.

Never in the early church was there any issues with the sabbath, or dietary laws.
---francis on 9/28/10


---leej on 9/28/10
Weak arguement

Sabbath is from EVEN to EVEN. which means evening to evening
That is sunset to sunset

So lets say that one day had 360 hours
sabbath would be from sunset to sunset
or if it had 24 hours it would be from sunset to sunet.
EVEN unto EVEN

Leviticus 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
---francis on 9/28/10


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Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
God established man being able to tell time by the heavenly bodies.
The day, week, month, and year were all set at creation.
The day went from sunset to sunset.
The 7 day week was set.
The cycle of the moon set the month, new moon to new moon shows later on in OT.
The year was set from the seasons.
That is why certain years, they had to add a month at the end to match the seasons with the first month. Of coarse this shows later in OT also.
But men could tell by the Sun, Moon and stars where in time they were.
---micha9344 on 9/28/10


francis - what you state does not mean that a day could not have changed meanings.

The first 2 'days' of Creation could have been of much longer duration than 24 hours but we may surmise that the last 4 days of creation were of 24 hours because a day is determined by the earth rotation in relationship to the sun.

Recall that the ancients used a lunar calendar so a year to them may very well have been different from what we view a year. And they had to do adjustments to the calendars continually.
---leej on 9/28/10


God spoke of days Genesis 1:5

There is a reference to "week" in Genesis 29:27. So a week was already known
God spoke of months Genesis 29:14
Here is a key verse Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image, and called his name Seth:
So we know that God kept time in terms of days and years from the creation of Adam.

So anyone who can reason would know that before Moses the length of a Day, a week, a month and a year was already known.

God telling Moses that such and such a month would be the begining of the year and the first month, did not and could not change the order of the week.

Sorry guys your arguement is weak
---francis on 9/28/10


Cluny on 9/28/10

Read my answer again
i said "also we knew the length of one month and how many days were in one month
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month"

So clearly a MONTH was already established, with how many days GOD had determined. And that would have been based on the relationship with the MOON and the EARTH.

So again yes GOD started the jewish calenda way before Moses, because God knew of MONTHS and Days and spoke of them BEFORE MOSES.

Genesis 1:5 And the evening and the morning were the first day

The first day infact the first week, was established long before Moses and it was established by God.
---francis on 9/28/10


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**I and the Bible says [sic] it started with God:**

Well, you say so, anyway, francis.

**also we knew the length of one month and how many days were in one month
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, **

OK, francis. Tell us. How many days WERE in the month according to this verse?

And does it mean the second month of the year? Or the second month of Noah being 600?

Give BCV for your answer.
---Cluny on 9/28/10


NO! God first gave them to Moses, and God wrote them with His very own finger. He is not happy with this country and its government for trashing His laws.
---catherine on 9/27/10


frances, jerry - you chose to ignore the fact that the Jewish calendar started with Moses.
leej on 9/26/10

I and the Bible says it started with God:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

also we knew the length of one month and how many days were in one month
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month,

Very different if God has said: This shall be the FIRST day to you and the first day was different than what was already established in Genesis
---francis on 9/27/10


JOhn -//The Sabbath was established during creation. The commandment was to REMEMBER the Sabbath.

We can conclude that the tradition handed downward to the Hebrew nation included the story of the Creation including God sanctifying the 7th day.

However, there was no command to observe the Sabbath until the time of Moses.

Furthermore because it was observed only by the Jewish people, it was viewed on the same level as circumcision and thus not commanded of Gentile converts at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.

Nor was it taught by the Apostles or their immediate successors in the early Gentile churches.

There is nothing in the NT that even hints of a command to observe the Sabbath.
---leej on 9/27/10


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Let me ask this boldy. was it OK to:
WORSHIP OTHER GODS: MAKE IDOLS FOR WORSHIP:
TAKE GOD'S NAME IN VAIN: BREAK THE SABBATH:
NOT HONOUR PARENTS: MURDER: COMMIT ADULTERY:
STEAL: LIE: AND COVET BEFORE MOSES?

Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

Genesis 13:13 But the men of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.


Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
---francis on 9/27/10


francis - Agree with you that Exodus 16:23 and other verses would indicate that the Sabbath was part of that tradition handed downward to Moses.

However, there was NO COMMAND to observe the Sabbath until the time of Moses.

If you wish to believe otherwise, then clearly your belief is based totally on an ASSUMPTION.

The Sabbath was NOT observed by any other nation on earth, only by the Hebrew nation after they left Egypt.

The Sabbath is NOT observed by the Christian church since it was not commanded of them under the New Covenant dispensation. If it were, there would be at least a hint of a command in the NT but there simply ain't none.
---leej on 9/27/10


If you equate the ten commandments with God's words to man, then "yes", for Abraham was known to be "the friend of God": and so being Abraham's friend God did not keep his commandments nor his covenant from Abraham, but instead he spoke to Abraham openly and in person and let him know his mind, namely, those things that are pleasing and right to God, and also those things that are displeasing and wrong to God.
---Eloy on 9/27/10


francis - Why do YOU think the Sabbath was observed before Moses received the tablets if the Ten Commandments were not in place at that time?
---leej on 9/26/10


The BIBLE

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

Exodus 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day, for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

Exodus 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

Exodus 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
---francis on 9/26/10


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SUPER BIBLE QUIZ

1: How do you know when one DAY has gone bye?

2: How do you know when one MONTH has gone bye?

3: How do you know when one YEAR has gone bye?

4:How do you know when one WEEK has gone bye?

Answeer key:
1: Relationship between EARTH and EARTH.
2: Relationship betwen EARTH and MOON.
3: Relationship betweeen EARTH and SUN.
4: WORD OF GOD.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
---francis on 9/26/10


LeeJ

The Sabbath was established during creation. The commandment was to REMEMBER the Sabbath. The reason was because it had been forgotten by man.
---JOhn on 9/26/10


francis - Why do YOU think the Sabbath was observed before Moses received the tablets if the Ten Commandments were not in place at that time?

Apparently, what became the OT was starting to be developed and formalized after the Hebrews left Egypt, if we conclude from Exodus 32:8 they already knew some of the laws.

Prior to the time of Moses, they only had an oral tradition dating back to the time of Abraham. There is nothing we have that indicates any of these oral traditions were ever written down prior to the time of Moses.

Most of the Hebrew people knew not how to read or write - a skill only possessed by the upper classes of the Egyptian society of which Moses the author upbringing in the Egyptian courts.
---leej on 9/26/10


frances, jerry - you chose to ignore the fact that the Jewish calendar started with Moses.

Ex 12:2 This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you.

And if the Jewish calendar started with Moses, there is little or no reason to believe the Jewish sabbath was observed prior to the time of Moses.

Since the ancient calendars were based on the moon cycles and not the sun, they had to be adjusted (changed) from time to time in order to plan for the agricultural seasons.
---leej on 9/26/10


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lee: Why do YOU think the Sabbath was observed before Moses received the tablets if the Ten Commandments were not in place at that time?

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

Exodus 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day, for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

Exodus 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

Exodus 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
---francis on 9/26/10


jerry - I believe that the Jewish calendar really started with Moses and aribitrarily designed the Sabbath and declared to be the 7th day.

Exodus 12:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

I do not believe the Sabbbath was observed prior to the time of Moses. Howbeit, there seems to have been an ancient oral tradition handed downward that recognized some of the laws. Whether there was a day of rest, we have no record.

Prior to Moses receiving the 10 commandments, God said "They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them." Exodus 32:8
---leej on 9/26/10


lee: Why do YOU think the Sabbath was observed before Moses received the tablets if the Ten Commandments were not in place at that time?
---jerry6593 on 9/25/10


Exodus 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

This comment was made while Moses was still up in the mountain, prior to his receiving the ten commandment tablets.

So we may conclude that there was an oral tradition in existence prior to the time of Moses.

And from Romans 2:14 we can conclude that everyone knew what constituted moral law.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
---leej on 9/24/10


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Leslie: "Israel was not a nation before Moses, and the 10 Commandments did not exist before Moses."

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Don't you think that God would have remembered to include the Ten Commandments among "my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws"? After all, they were so important that He didn't trust Moses to write them, but wrote them with His own finger in stone.
---jerry6593 on 9/23/10


NO OTHER GODS:Genesis 2:17
NO IDOLS:Genesis 35:4
NAME IN VAIN: Genesis 6:2
SABBATH: Genesis 2:3
HONOUR PARENTS: Genesis 9:24
MURDER: Genesis 4:23
ADULTERY: Genesis 39:9
THEFT:Genesis 31:19
LIE: Genesis 3:4
COVET: Genesis 3:6

BEFORE TEN COMMANDMENTS:
Genesis 26:5 Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Exodus 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

No laws and commandments?
What is Abraham keeping?
Why is God chatestening Israel about keeping Laws even before Sinai?
PS Exodus 16:28 is about sabbath BEFORE GOD spoke the ten commandments.
---francis on 9/23/10


Israel was not a nation before Moses, and the 10 Commandments did not exist before Moses.
---Leslie on 9/22/10


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