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Christian Preterists Post Trib

Are there any Preterists out there? Any post-tribulation views?

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 ---Joshua on 10/12/10
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Preterism: A theory that all future prophecies were nullified by the "fulfillment" (their word)of Matt. 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Preterists say 70 AD fulfilled everything. If that's true, explain present day Israel back in the land being prepared for their Messiah.

If all future events were fulfilled by Titus in 70 AD, what about the following scriptures? Did these things take place before, and up to, 70 AD? Common sense says, "No."

If the Preterists view is true, what about these things these scriptures?
Acts 1:11 Rom. 11:12 Rom 11:23,24,25 II Thess. 2:3,4 (Compare with Dan. 11)
II Thess. 2:8 - Jude vs 14 and 15a
---michael_e on 10/25/10


John, do not get the Second Coming mixed up with what post-trib means. Post-trib believers also believe in the Second Coming. In fact they all believe in the Second Coming. That understanding does not change. The events before and after is what is different. The subject of when the tribulation comes or when it came or if we are going through it now, and the Antichrist, when he came, will come, or is he here now is the difference in believes.
There is many great men in time who have chosen sides. My main purpose was to show that this views came by two Jesuit man asigned by the Pope. They did a great job that now many variations are been believed. Many reformers have also changed their views.
---MarkV. on 10/23/10


---John on 10/22/10 Preterist believe (and there are variables)that it all occured by 70AD

Amen
---michael_e on 10/22/10


Post trib is waiting for a second coming that will occur after we endure the final tribulation.
---John on 10/22/10

I would enjoy discussing this subject with you, provided we can both remain calm and objective.

In your prior shouting post, you said that wrath is for the wicked and tribulation is for believers. Yet, where are the events in The Revelation described as tribulation?

Only in Rev 7:14 at the opening of the last seal, before the trumpets, thunders, and bowls. Before all of it, these ones are delivered from the great tribulation.

And what do the people say just prior to this at the opening of the sixth seal? "...for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/22/10


MarkV.

Preterists and Post Trib are not the same. In fact they are polar opposites

Preterist believe (and there are variables)that it all occured by 70AD

Post trib is waiting for a second coming that will occur after we endure the final tribulation. Specifically during the final end of the Tribulation when the Saints are surrounded(literaly or figuretively) and thye are about to be destroyed by the Satan.

---John on 10/22/10




Concerning 2, The preterist School, founded by Jesuit Alcasar in 1614, explains
Revelation by the Fall of Jerusalem or by the fall of Pagan Rome in 410 A.D. The opposition to both Preterism and futurism is "Historism," which is what the vast majority of Protestants used to teach. In essence historism teaches straight-forward, chronological progression by saying that the major prophecies of Daniel and Revelation find fulfillment throughout Christian history while pointing toward the climatic, visible Second Coming of our Savior. Historism also places special emphasis on the ongoing struggle between Jesus Christ and satan inside the Christain Church. It takes note of Paul's predictions about "the falling away"
---MarkV. on 10/21/10


Concerning Pri-trib (called futurism) and preterist view (called (post trib), had their beginning at the Council of Trent, where papal leaders and Jesuits brainstormed about how to counteract Protestantism and bring defectors back to the mother church. They decided this was to be done, not only through the Inquistion and torture, but also through theology. By reinterpreting the prophecies about "the man of sin" the "little horn" and "the beast." Two Spanish Jesuits were selected. Luis de Alcasar (preterist view) and Francisco Ribera (futuristic view).
The Futuristic School, was founded by Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon, and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian dispensation.
---MarkV. on 10/21/10


john,

i am neither pre, mid, nor post. i am just trib and two earthly arrivals of Jesus Christ. One has passed.

1Thes 4... Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
---aka on 10/20/10


Some think God will take them up off the earth before the tribulation, and some think he will take us during the tribulation, and some think he will take us up after the tribulation. The fact is it will happen, and we are suppose to be ready, in the Holy Spirit and without sin at all times. When you continue to obey: "Blessed that servant, whom their Lord when he comes will find so doing." Matthew 24:46. But if you turn away to sin, and say in your heart, My Lord delays his coming: The Lord of that servant will come in a day when that one not looking for, and in an hour that that one is not aware of." Matthew 24:50.
---Eloy on 10/19/10


So I take it AKA, you are not Pri-trib.
---jOHN on 10/19/10




some very strange doctrine came back in the 1800s, didn't it? ---aka on 10/19/10

was really a matter of bad word usage...function of haste.

some very strange doctrines arrived during the 1800s, didn't they?

as a christi... i mean new creation in the Lord, why not expect and prepare for the full blessing of Christ? that is being able to stand and not escape. are we overcomers who use the front door or escape artists that use the backdoor?
---aka on 10/19/10


No AKA, it DIDN'T COME BACK! It was started in the 1800s.

Because John Darby was losing attendance and needed some pizzaaz to revive it. The same with Pri-Trib churches of today. The concept of not suffering under Christ being raptured straight to heaven appeals to the Pseudo Carnal Bourgois (1Minute Sinners Prayer Ticket) Phony Christians. It makes for Mega Rock/Roll/Praise Music Churches. (i.e. Ricky Warren, Joel Ostein, Joyce Myers and other Antichrists).

Explain the Great Commision...

A) Do we witness until the coming of Christ?
B) Or...Do we witness until 7yrs before the coming of Christ?

Tribulation comes from the word Tribul. A sled used in harvest that separates the Wheat from the chaff. A test of faith.
---JOHN on 10/19/10


John,

some very strange doctrine came back in the 1800s, didn't it?
---aka on 10/19/10


the problem with post trib stance is that there is no scripture and wishful thinking to manipulate to get to the conclusion.
---aka

RIGHT!!!

NOW READ WORD FOR WORD WHAT JESUS SAID...

1)MATT 24:29-31(...now AFTER THE TRIBULATION...)
2)JOHN 6:39,40,44,54 (on THE LAST DAY I will raise them up..)
3)JOHN11:24 (...ON THE LAST DAY)
4)JOHN 12:48 (...ON THE LAST DAY)
5)JOHN17:15 (I DO NOT PRAY YOU TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD)

HE SPOKE!!! CASE CLOSED!!!

PRI-TRIB IS A HERESY!!! STARTED BY A WITCH NAMED MARGARET MCDONALD(GOOGLE IT) PASS TO JOHN DARBY, WHO ATTENDED HER SEANCE. THEN TO SCOFIELD WHO ADDED IT TO HIS STUDY BIBLE(140 YRS AGO.)

WRATH IS FOR THE WICKED, TRIBULATION IS FOR BELIEVERS!
---JOHN on 10/17/10


Posttribulationalist===Asserts-that the Tribulation is a horrific period of trouble immediately preceding the millennium and typically teach that believers and unbelievers will both undergo this tribulation---You have also, Amillennialists, Dispensational Premillennialists, The Great Tribulation, Seven year tribulation Well, my mind still does a funny thing when I look at these.....Jesus warned that the "Great Tribulation" would be so intense that its calamities will nearly decimate [to kill in large numbers], all of life" [Mat. 24:15-22].
---catherine on 10/16/10


//Read again verse 17.
---mima on 10/15/10//
Absolutely correct, the only scripture that mentions Christ meeting believers, in this case the BoC, in the air.
Prophecy on the second advent say he will stand on the earth. Zech.14:4 Acts 1:11
---michael_e on 10/16/10


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Mima, that was a good answer. Even Christ spoke of His Second coming. He will come again, He tells us. Prophecy, something biblical of God that is going to happen in the future.
---MarkV. on 10/15/10


//I am Post trib. In Matthew 24 it speaks of Christians meeting GOD in the air//

What vs in Matt 24 are you referring to?

Does 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 to the BoC sound the same as Zech 14:4 and Acts 1:11 to the nation of Israel?
---michael_e on 10/15/10




KJV 4:14-18

" 14-For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15-For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16-For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17-Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Read again verse 17.
---mima on 10/15/10


I am Post trib. In Matthew 24 it speaks of Christians meeting GOD in the air. There is no place in the Bible where the meeting in the air is said to be secret.

So I challenge anyone to show where a secret meeting in the air is stated.
---Samuel on 10/15/10


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///Jesus comes "at the last trumpet" (1 Corinthians 15:52).///


Agreed.
---char on 10/15/10


// that is not the pre-trib theology. That is the Second Coming //

Markv, Would you please show me any prophecy about His second coming, where any one meets Him in the air.
---michael_e on 10/15/10


Michel e, that is not the pre-trib theology. That is the Second Coming. And the Second Coming is believed by all those, preterist, futurist and historism. It is prophecy for sure, and it will happen. Believing in the Second Coming does not make anyone a pre-trib, a post-trib or a mid-trip.
---MarkV. on 10/15/10


Biblical history where the idea of pre-trib came from, the Apostle Paul.
I Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery(secret)
The 2nd coming is prophesied, not a mystery.
1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant,( why would they be ignorant, unless this was a mystery) 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, (Paul's gospel)15 .For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, (revealed to Paul) 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (but not to earth)... and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17... caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: (not on earth)
The trib was prophesied for the nation of Israel.
the Church the BoC is not prophesied.
---michael_e on 10/15/10


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History where the idea of pre-trib came from. It begin close to the end of the century of the refomation. Two of Romes Jesuits by order of the RCC set themselves to the task, each by different means, to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting mens's minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.
One Jesuit, Luis de Alcarsar devoted himself to bring the Preteris method of interpretation to show the prophecies were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled. Francisco Ribera, the other Jesuit devoted himself to bring the futuristic view, (pre-trib) method of interpretation to show the prophecies of the Antichrist are futuristic, and applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters.
---MarkV. on 10/15/10


I stand with Bill. With my view based also on the scriptural references he posted.
---joseph on 10/15/10


jack--I too, have begun to see things a little differently than the pre-trib I was taught earlier. Too many things from scripture don't seem to add up to that. And there seems to be a definite change after 3 1/2 years of tribulation, so I'm leaning toward "mid-trib".
There are many good Biblical scholars that disagree on the timing of the tribulation, so I am not about to be dogmatic. But I won't be caught off guard if asked to suffer, even die for my faith.
---Donna66 on 10/15/10


well put Jack and good points Bill.
---aka on 10/14/10


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I was raised So. Baptist, Bill, and taught that the rapture was pre-tribulation. They provided a few scriptures to back up their belief. However, the more I read scripture concerning it the more I am convinced it is not. Your verses are the ones that give me the most trouble. Especially the "last trump".

Im starting to believe we will be here during the tribulation and some of us will die because of our refusal to take the mark (Rev 13:15). Our faith will be tested to see if it is genuine.

The Bible does say the Antichrist will be given power over the saints to overcome them. I believe it is Gods ultimate test of our faith. Are we willing to die for that which we believe?
---JackB on 10/14/10


//Impossible to prove what is the correct belief, even using scripture. It's all in the interpretation//

Not necessarily impossible if you use right division
---michael_e on 10/14/10


Either way, Mark (10/13/10), it says "after" the tribulation. Plus, Paul says Jesus comes "at the last trumpet" (1 Corinthians 15:52). And I notice the last trumpet of Revelation (11:15) is not followed by any more tribulation, but instead what can be references to millennial ruling of the Christ. So, this last trumpet of Revelation can match with the last trumpet that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:31, which comes before His millennial kingdom.

What about the *love* principle, how Paul saw the need to stay here and suffer the tribulation that he did, in order to be here for us (Philippians 1:23-24)?

Could this mean love is post-trib.???
---Bill on 10/14/10


I've been told that many well known preachers are preterests.. (in most cases I would never have guessed it). Impossible to prove what is the correct belief, even using scripture. It's all in the interpretation.

The main difference, as I see it, between "post-trib" and the "pre" or "mid- trib" is that those still waiting for the tribulation expect that things will progress as God preordained. Those who consider the tribulation a past event, seem to place the responsibility on Christians to bring the end about by their witness and good deeds.

I suppose it's a good motivator of Christians to teach this. But it's hard for me to see a sovereign God giving flawed Christians so much control.
---Donna66 on 10/13/10


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//You're in good company...

Me, Peter, Paul, John, Jesus.....//

You are in good company, Mary, when Jesus is first. Jesus, John, Paul, Peter, and Cluny.

we should always remember the seat of honor.
---aka on 10/13/10


There is a danger in fishing for people with similar views to you. It can appeal to the sense of pride in you that others approve. Don't seek the approval of men. Yes I lean towards post-trib, I have a very simple "read as you go" approach to understanding scripture, and as I read it it sounds very much like the son of perdition will be revealed before the rapture according to 2 Thessalonians 2.
Also some of the Daniel prophecy seems to be revealed around AD 70, but the coming of Christ evidently has not happened yet.
---Casey on 10/14/10


possibly Jesus is post-trib.
---Bill on 10/13/10

Bill, let me ask you a question.

Matt 24:29 begins with the phrase "But immediately after the tribulation of those days". My question is what days are "those days"?

Jesus could be referring to the "those days" as a continuation of Matt 24:14

Matt 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come"

or Jesus could be referring to "those days as a continuation of Matt 24:21

Matt 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/13/10


"'Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . . He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect" (in Matthew 24:29-31). So, possibly Jesus is post-trib.

And Paul says the Rapture will be "at the last trumpet" (in 1 Corinthians 15:52). That "great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31) is "after the tribulation of those days". So . . . the last trumpet that Jesus mentions is post-trib.

Also, there will be all my brothers and sisters "who come out of the great tribulation". See Revelation 7:9-17. Why would I not want to be there for them, to help them ? ? ? So, *love* "might" be post-trib. ! ! !
---Bill on 10/13/10


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the problem with post trib stance is that there is no scripture and wishful thinking to manipulate to get to the conclusion.

i understand the different views and how they make their conclusion, but it just not there as a whole.

in His Name, we will suffer.
---aka on 10/13/10


\\Lol Kev--the Pantribist :D :D Cute :D I'm a post-tribulation believer, oh boy, let the floggings begin lol! :D
---Mary on 10/12/10\\

You're in good company, Mary.

Me, Peter, Paul, John, Jesus.....
---Cluny on 10/12/10


Lucky for You Mary,
No Floggings on Wednesday's :)
---kevin on 10/12/10


Lol Kev--the Pantribist :D :D Cute :D I'm a post-tribulation believer, oh boy, let the floggings begin lol! :D
---Mary on 10/12/10


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Pantribist, it's gonna pan out :)
---kevin on 10/12/10


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