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Turn Tables Over At Church

Matthew 21:12, Jesus turned over tables in the temple of God to disrupt combining worship and profit. Does this give us permission to "get physical" in correcting wrongful use of religion?

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 ---Geraldine on 10/12/10
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mima:

Every city has its own health ordinances. As far as I am aware, in most places, restaurants are required to have restrooms (although I think it depends on the size, so small places like food stands would be exempt). In many places one sees hot dog vendors on the street, so I would think that someone who gives away popcorn should have no problem, although that may vary from city to city.

If your city allows such vendors but harrasses you, that could be grounds for a civil rights complaint. Otherwise, they may just be subjecting you to the same laws as everyone else.
---StrongAxe on 11/21/10


JESUS IS SCRIPTURE, AND THE FULFILLMENT OF SUCH. THAT WAS WHAT HE WAS DOING.

Part#2 of your question is YES! There will be times when you will need to pick up the sword.

The Bible is NOT A Politically Correct Hippy Love story!!!!

It contains violence and hate. Two words we are no longer allow to speak, due to the Dominant Liberal Religious cult of our society!
---JOHN on 11/20/10


Mima, If you are breaking the law you are in sin. What I see wrong is that you are trying to convert people on your own power and ideas. Giving away popcorn is a trick. gimmics don't come from God. Many churches have ideas and games and parties to bring the whole neighborhood to a place where they can trap them and get them to commit. Instead, they should all go walking to every house and spread the good news.
Our goal should be to see where the Holy Spirit is already working. Right now God is working all around us in our life. The Holy Spirit and the Word of God will instruct us and help us know when and were God is working, once we know where He is working, we should ajust our life to join Him where He is working.
---Mark_V. on 11/20/10


Mima, obey the law of the land in which you live unless it conflicts with God's laws. Hygiene is an important issue and rules must be observed.

In answer to the original question - no, this does not give us permission to 'get physical'. Actions don't always speak louder than words. Each case is different and Christians should seek God's guidance on every issue.
---RitaH on 11/20/10


\\I have presently been stopped from witnessing while giving away popcorn. I am outside on the street with a small generator and a popcorn machine only.\\

I've heard of rice Christians--now we have popcorn Christians.
---Cluny on 11/20/10




mima--I believe you may be confusing RELIGIOUS law that Jesus was involved with, and CIVIL law involved in your witnessing. It appears your witnessing can continue, but without the present connection with food.
---Geraldine on 11/19/10


I have a question somewhat along this line.

I have presently been stopped from witnessing while giving away popcorn. I am outside on the street with a small generator and a popcorn machine only.
The reason I was stopped is I do not have a place for the people are myself to wash hands and I am dispensing food.

And so I asked you,

WHAT SHOULD BE MY RESPONSE??
---mima on 11/18/10


"Does this give us permission to "get physical" in correcting wrongful use of religion?" No.
This had nothing to do with "religion", as in a method of worship.
It was the blatant misuse of a temple that had been set apart for prayer, instruction, and worship that angered Him.
What should have been called, and utilizes as a house of prayer was shown to be nothing more than a "den of thieves".
After His passionate display "His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up."... And the reproaches of those who reproach You have fallen on me." His anger was just, His act a reminder of prophesy. Isaiah 56:7 * Jeremiah 7:11
---Josef on 10/17/10


\\we worship in spirit because Christ is not ruling YET on earth - He will return\\

I disagree.

Christ rules in our hearts in His Church.
---Cluny on 10/15/10


James and John (sons of thunder): Jesus, shall we call fire down from heaven?
Jesus (King of kings): You know not what spirit ye are of.
---Linda on 10/14/10




seeing the NT church is spiritual and the OT temple was physical there really are no comparisons

however Christ was the God whom the temple was created for ...seeing HIS people who professed to worship and serve HIM only pollute his temple with THEIR wicked self-serving acts

TRUE Christians worship in spirit and truth

this is why mainstream christianity has a difficult time understanding the differnce between worship in a building and spirit

we worship in spirit because Christ is not ruling YET on earth - He will return
---Rhonda on 10/14/10


I believe how a person responds to this question will reveal their true character, who they really are, along with revealing what they really are about.

There are examples in scripture which tells us to follow the example Christ has set.

Personally I do get upset and angry when I see how people have taken Christianity and God's Word to exploit people for their personal gain.

It also makes me very angry concerning people who claim to be Christian and people of God, yet they say we should show love for, defend, support, and give our approval to those who are wicked and evil people, Romans 1:18-32.

There are people who are masqurading as being of and from God when in reality they are of Satan, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
---Rob on 10/14/10


Casey, you are way off track in your thinking. If people started setting up swapmeet in your front yard, you could always call the police and let them handle the situation.There are things you can do before resorting to violence. We are to always think before taking action against others. You sound like a person who has a lot of anger problems and certainly you don't have a good understanding of the Word of God(the bible) Be careful with that. We should show love to others, at all times. If that does not work we should seek other choices. We don't have to shoot and kill because we can(physically and spiritually) Let love be your first reaction,always, if possible. Being a christian means learning to love. Not violence.
---Robyn on 10/14/10


If people started setting up a swapmeet in your yard, wouldn't you physically start removing items. He only made a whip to get rid of the animals. He had a zeal for his house. Do you have a zeal for your house, both physical and the temple of God in you?
Get physical and start turning over the tables in your life, because your body is God's temple, and God will destroy the temple that is defiled.
---Casey on 10/14/10


\\(1) That temple was God's place for prayer. \\

The Temple was actually a glorified slaughterhouse.

\\"Woe to you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites, which require tithes of mint, anise and cumin: .\\

Behold how Eloy falsifies the Word of God.

Jesus said the scribes and pharisees PAID tithes of herbs, not "REQUIRED" herb, according to Eloy's false witness.
---Cluny on 10/13/10


(1) That temple was God's place for prayer. Many churches, today, are not. So, likely they would not qualify to be defended by table turning (c:

(2) I understand they were not just selling books that could minister. They we selling animals that possibly people needed in order to make sacrifices for forgiveness. So, in a way they were selling forgiveness. Jesus who would freely give His blood for our forgiveness "might" not have been too happy with that.

(3) "Freely you have received, freely give." (in Matthew 10:8)

(4) Make sure you turn over any tables in *yourself* witch have you selling out yourself rather than freely loving and giving and forgiving.
---Bill on 10/13/10


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Jesus did not turn over the tables to disrupt combining worship with profit, but instead he drove out the robbers including the minister who were money-chargers for God's grace, that is those who require tithes and neglect the more important matters of mercy and faith. "Woe to you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites, which require tithes of mint, anise and cumin: and leave the weightier of the law undone, regard mercy and faith, these ought you all to have done and those not to leave undone. All their wickedness in Gilgal, for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes rebellious." Mt.23:23+ Ho.9:15.
---Eloy on 10/13/10


Wivv...Paul is speaking here in Romans 2:1-2, of what God says of the moral man. The Moral man did not commit adultery, but did he lust? [I love preaching on the moral man] Maybe the moral man did not steal, but did he covet? The moral man, would beat you up black and blue for stealing, and two wrongs do not make a right. Stealing and covetousness are listed together in Mark 7:22. An example: Hate can lead to murder. Covetousness can lead to stealing. Note: There is a difference between an appreciation of beauty and lustful, lurid look. So, we don't have to, in order to stay out of sin, be thinking him or her is ugly.
---catherine on 10/13/10


NO! After-all Jesus is God in the flesh, and God can do whatever He pleases, we, mere mortals, are not allowed....."My house shall be called the house of prayer". Jesus was angry, because there is so much corruption among the people, for example, [in markets]. Jesus won't allow it. it does not need to spread in God's house. It robs God of His honor. Now, See here, this is how God feels about this practice and this is how He looks upon this practice. I must stress here, and that is, not all churches are God's house. Look behind the podium to see if Satan is standing there. While you are at it look, maybe Satan is sitting right next to you.
---catherine on 10/12/10


"No", a Christian can't get physical in correcting a wrongful use of religion. This makes you a judge of what is "right or wrong", and while Christ is able to judge correctly, we can't. There is Scripture that states, Romans 2:1-2 (NASB77)
"Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself, ...."
---wivv on 10/12/10


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the thing to understand is that a mere man cannot act out anger in many cases saved or not without going to far, what Jesus did he did in the totality of his zeal for God's house while never crossing the line.

Not everyone will judge correctly to begin with, because it's a matter of the heart...earning a wage and supporting the work of ministry is a rightful reason to profit from the work...who's to say when it's done with impure intent without clear evidence?
---peter on 10/12/10


Robyn "We should use common sense and spiritual wisdom in all that we do.Turning tables over in church would land you in deep trouble and hot water with the church and with the penal system"

Did Jesus use common sense?

But of course He had the spiritual wisdom to give Him the authority to do this, even though it landed Him in deep trouble.

None of us have that authority
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/12/10


Does this give us permission to "get physical" in correcting wrongful use of religion?

NO, it does not!

I'm sure that many Christians, Churches, Pastors, etc. will disagree with me. However, I DO NOT believe that GOD wants us to use:

VIOLENCE, PHYSICAL and/or VERBAL ASSAULT, BULLYING, of any sort, etc. --

While we are Living, and hopefully, Working for HIS Kingdom.

Things that are clearly NOT pleasing to GOD will eventually Fail, and Cease. Good examples are RELIGIONS and BUSINESSES that don't give GOD all the Glory and Honor that only HE deserves.
---Sag on 10/12/10


No! We don't have that kind of authority. We should use common sense and spiritual wisdom in all that we do.Turning tables over in church would land you in deep trouble and hot water with the church and with the penal system. You would be doing much harm to yourself. If it bothers you that much leave this church and seek peace of mind. Or you can stay this church,pray and let the Lord handle this situation.
---Robyn on 10/12/10


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\\If the pastor or anyone has books to sell then they can set up a link to the churches website to go to an online bookstore to order, this way they won't have to sell in the church.or people can go to a physical chrisitan bookstore & buy stuff there.
---candice on 10/12/10
\\

Don't forget, not everyone has computer or internet access.

I see nothing wrong with a church having a small bookstore or gift shop for people to buy Bibles, prayer books, icons, and other devotional items that are not easily available elsewhere.

OTOH, if said church bookstall starts to become a big operation, it should probably be separated physically and financially from the church.
---Cluny on 10/12/10


Jesus was angry & had the right. We donot. however instead of throwing tables, we can point out that the building should be a place to worship the Lord, not to sell merchandise. If the pastor or anyone has books to sell then they can set up a link to the churches website to go to an online bookstore to order, this way they won't have to sell in the church.or people can go to a physical chrisitan bookstore & buy stuff there.
---candice on 10/12/10


No it doesn't. The bible tells us to speak the truth in love, not beat the truth into people.

Jesus was demonstrating a Righteous Anger, not a hateful anger.

Getting physical in this day and age will end you up in Jail. It's a crime (assualt and battery is a crime).

The bible tells us to turn the other cheek, not slap it...amen?

Remember too that Jesus was in HIS Father's house, not anyone else's.....so I feel He had a right to do what He did since it was His Father's house.
---Donna5535 on 10/12/10


Only if you're on the spiritual level of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ Himself.
---Cluny on 10/12/10


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