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Is Limited Atonement Biblical

"Limited Atonement" says Jesus did not die for all men, Hebrews 2:9 says,"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Which is correct?

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 ---mima on 10/21/10
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Again, the Holy Spirit is the hand in the glove of the gospel to convict a man of his unbelief in Christ. If man rejects, it is blasemphy against the Holu Spirit who convicted him. Regarding suppressing the knowledge of God, see Cornelius. He didn't suppress that knowledge and the Holy Spirit brought Peter to him to preach the gospel and reveal the righteousness of God. To retain the intuitive knowledge of God given by God (as shown in Romans 1) is a choice. Cornelius is proof that man doesn't always suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Good try though, Christan.
---Linda on 10/25/10

A few of you may remember a blog about 2 weeks ago where I mentioned a friend of mine who was an atheist and a witch and how I was told by some to stay away from her because I wasnt being led by God to her but she was being led by satan get me instead.

I just wanted to say that she has now repented of her sin and asked Jesus CHrist to be her Lord and Savior and now KNOWS there is a God.

If youre in an impossible situation trying to present the gospel to someone who has been cast aside as without hope, wicked, unchosen, or not elect, please dont give up hope. Love hopes in all things.

Contrary to the beliefs of some who pushed her aside as without hope, Jesus has shown his power.

Thank you all for your prayers.
---JackB on 10/25/10

If the atonement was "never limited" and did really covered "all the sins of the world" - you will have a very big problem telling those who now dwell in Hades that God wanted to save them but He couldn't because their "free-will" over powered His will to save them.

This then makes God promise to save a laughing stock and even worst, His Son Jesus Christ died in Calvary in vain because even after His sacred sacrifice of giving up His life, it meant nothing and couldn't save the sinner.

If you feel confused after reading this, it's because "free-will" sounds exactly like this... utterly ridiculous.
---christan on 10/25/10

It only a matter of time before those who spread false doctrine put their foot in their mouth. Im glad Im not the only one to see his contradictions.

When Jesus CHrist came into my life he brought a deep love for God and his ways and a light but persistant burden to spread this good news to all men. Jesus Christ is the secret of life and I want the whole world to know.

Any time I see someone teaching a lost man he hasnt been chosen for experience the love of God and be changed into a new creature, it enrages me. I believe with all my heart its a righteous anger.

He didnt just die for us who know him, but for the sin of the whole world. You dont give your life for someone that you dont love.
---JackB on 10/25/10

The Atonement has NEVER been limited and never will.

Leviticus 16:34
And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. --
2 Chronicles 29:24
And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel

Numbers 15:25
And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, ---
---kathr4453 on 10/25/10

One of the problems in this debate is the notion that we "choose" to believe the gospel.

Who ever chose to believe 2+2=4? NOBODY. It is impossible to "choose" to believe anything, regardless of what it is. We have to be convinced to believe something. The work of the Holy Spirit CONVINCES (convicts) us of our sin, then CONVINCES us of God's remedy for that sin.

That's why the bible says some suppress the truth in unrighteousness. They refuse to be convinced of their sin, therefore they cannot be convinced of the remedy.

But where is the call to "choose" to believe the gospel? I haven't found it anywhere.

Thomas said he wouldn't be convinced without touching Christ.
---James_L on 10/25/10


EPHESIAN 1:4 ACCORDING as he HATH CHOSEN US in him before the foundation of the world.
---RICHARD on 10/25/10

William Tyndale and Martin Luther, in the face of heavy persecutions, translated the Bible into English and German languages. This is a very important part of Christian history.

Martin Luther did teach that CHRIST died for the elect. This too is true.

I haue Martin Luthers Bible translation. I loue the Lutheranism teachings on iustification by faith only, God's grace, predestination & c. It's the Gospel.

Lutherans and Caluinists loue the Bible (Sola Scriptura) and agreed that Saint Augustine was a true Christian. Indeed, what Bible would you read if you were in German and only spoke German language?

As for me, it would most definitely be Martin Luthers Bible.
---Kev on 10/25/10

Question: Does God desire the death of His only Son Jesus Christ?

Answer: Obviously not BUT yet the Father tells us that He willed His Son's death, for He said in Isaiah 53:10, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him, he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."

This is the meaning of Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
---christan on 10/25/10

Question: Does God desire the death of a sinner?

Answer: Definitely not BUT did He will this? Let's take a look at Pharaoh and read what the Lord said about creating him specifically for destruction - "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Romans 9:17)

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." (Romans 9:22)

There's no other to interpret these verses other than to acknowledge God does as He pleases. If you have a problem, your problem is with God.
---christan on 10/25/10

If you think that "free-will" of man is real, here's what God says in Isaiah 46:10-11,

Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it,
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it,
I will also do it.

The final nail in the "free-will" coffin is "The man who executes My counsel..." Whose counsel or will? God's will!!! Amen.
---christan on 10/25/10

\\The desire to be Gods chosen above all the rest of humanity has led to some of the most heinous crimes in history.

Men have MURDERED in the name of God just to enforce their doctrines.

They even murdered Christ when he came in the flesh because they werent ready to admit they werent ANY better than the person they ostracized and labeled as "wicked".\\

Some of the most eternally INsecure people were the early Calvinist Puritans.

As far as people murdering Christ, this is impossible. A murderer takes peoples lives against their will. Jesus said, "No man takes My life. I give it willingly."
---Cluny on 10/25/10

I went over to that "What is a Christian blog". Lord, have mercy!
---Linda on 10/25/10

That's true, Micha. No need to present if God has willed it at a specific time. It will happen apart from exegesis if God has willed it...and nothing, not even preaching, will cause your "turn" to come up any earlier. The whole purpose for presenting the doctrine is contradicted by the doctrine itself. I said this a long time ago but it ended up being twisted into something I didn't say. The merry go round spins and spins. It never stops. Folks just get dizzy from all the twists and turns and fall off the horses. Only thing left is the one spinning the merry go round. Falling off the horse is good. Flat on your back, you have no option but to look up and with no customers, the operator is just wasting time and power.
---Linda on 10/25/10

Amen Bruce. We are to use the simple measure of faith God has given to every man to believe the simple gospel of Jesus Christ (His death, burial, and resurrection) to live a life that is not deceived from the simplicity that is in Christ. It is simple. It really is.
---LindaS on 10/25/10

Well said Linda!

When people list off all the things a person must believe (for example on the What does it mean to be a Christian blog) they make salvation contingent on being educated in all these things rather than simple faith. Salvation is based on faith, not theology.
---Bruce5656 on 10/25/10

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I strongly agree with---LindaS on 10/25/10.
---mima on 10/25/10

Doctrine that says a man cannot see or hear unless the Spirit quicken him and yet insists that unbelievers cannot have this quickening agent within them to be saved has left out the key ingredient of the gospel and the power of the Holy spirit within it to convince a man of unbelief in Christ. It also excludes what God has revealed to ungodly men (Romans 1), the measure of faith God has given to every man, and the truth that Jesus is the light that lights every man who comes into the world. God has done all that AND fully displayed His love and will in Christ. No excuse for man to be ignorant except that he chooses willingly to do so. Otherwise God totally spent Himself when He really didn't have to. Love desires to be chosen.
---LindaS on 10/25/10

MarkV, God doesn't need you to present anything to the elect, so if you still choose (yes, I said choose) to present this view of yours, it just proves it is by choice and your will. Why do the elect need convincing, do they have a choice(yes, I said choice) in the matter?
Isn't it the Spirit, as you say, doing the convincing, as if they had a choice?
Are you presuming to take the place of the Spirit in directing the elect toward God by presenting a view that, if true, you would not have to present?
Curios and strangely circular.
---micha9344 on 10/25/10

"....if you CHOOSE not to believe the truth when it is presented, then it is not your turn."

Choose? Really? Isn't that what we have been saying all along?

"It's not your turn" reminds me of more childish days when "I was here first" dictated whether someone else got pushed out of line or not. God doesn't need a line. He is omnipresent. Also, He has revealed Himself to unbelievers through the conscience and the creation. If even one of them chooses to retain that knowledge of Him instead of be willingly ignorant, He will make sure the gospel gets to him so that one moves from the measure of faith God has given to every man to saving faith in Christ. Cornelius is an example of this (Acts 10).
---Linda on 10/25/10

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We are commissioned to preach the gospel, not present a doctrine or the revelation of that doctrine as salvation. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and is the power of God unto salvation. People don't come to a doctrine. They come to Jesus. There is a world of difference between the two. One reveals the righteousness of God from faith to faith. The other, the counsels of a man's heart and the abundance thereof.
---Linda on 10/25/10

2 Peter 3:5 talks about the scoffers who are willingly ignorant. I looked up the Greek word for willing (1014) found in verse 9 and the Greek word for willingly (2309) in verse 5 and discovered that they mean the same thing. God does not desire, choose, determine, intend, or wish any man to perish. He has revealed Himself in the conscience and the creation unto that purpose. Man can desire, choose, determine, intend, or wish to remain in ignorance (ignore what is revealed) and therefore perish. God not willing that any should perish follows man being willingly ignorant and therefore refutes that God does not choose this, but man. The order of the Scriptures is not a coincidence.
---Linda on 10/25/10

I and others present the Truth so if God wants someone to know something He will provide it through His Word. Our God is Ruler of all things. He is in one mind and who can turn Him? Not man that is for sure. "For in Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen" Rom. 11:36. Men may boast that they are free agents, with a will of their own, and are at liberty to do as they please, but Scripture says to those who boast, "we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell...Ye ought to say, If the Lord will" James 4:13,15. For "A man's heart deviseth his way: "But the Lord directeth his steps" Prov. 16:9.
---MarkV. on 10/25/10

People 2: In Daniel 4:35 we're told God doeth according to His will. If He doeth according to His will, how can man's will be defeating Him? If He was willing that no single person parish, none would parish since He does according to His will. And to clear things He says, "and none can stay His hand" Here, many imply that man can stay His hand. Implying the passage is false. Many believe in a 'god' whose will is resisted, whose designs are frustrated, whose purpose is checkmated. A god who possess no deity, and so far from being a fit object of worship, merits nothing but contempt.
God's Word says,
"But He is of one mind, and who can turn Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth" Job 23:14
---MarkV. on 10/25/10

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//I do not know who the elect are, and who are not or whether they have been saved already or about to be saved. You can believe or not. Whatever choice you make has already been ordained. If you choose not to believe in the Truth when it is presented to you from anyone, then it was not your turn.//
--- MarkV

That sounded dangerously close to you saying that because Micha isnt Calvinist that he isnt saved.

I have been told so far in my life that Im dont have the Truth and am lost because...

- I dont honor Mary as the 'mother of God' and claim she was a sinner
- I have rejected the other "stick" who also bring Gods truth (Mormonism)
- I dont believe in the teachings of Calvin over the words of Jesus Christ
---JackB on 10/25/10

//"for HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins." (Matthew 1:21) His death therefore was only meant for HIS PEOPLE.

Jesus Christ is the LORD. All things are his because He created all things (John chapter 1).

When does this junk end?

The desire to be Gods chosen above all the rest of humanity has led to some of the most heinous crimes in history.

Men have MURDERED in the name of God just to enforce their doctrines.

They even murdered Christ when he came in the flesh because they werent ready to admit they werent ANY better than the person they ostracized and labeled as "wicked".
---JackB on 10/25/10

People need to know that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His character, nature and attributes never change. Lets talk about 2 Peter 3:9'
"God is not willing that any should parish and that all come to repentance"
It is suppose by many that God is not willing that any single person parish, when we know millions are. If God will's something one way, and some other thing happens without Him willing it, that something is more powerful then God. In this case it's sinful man we are told, Man's will defeating God's will they supposed.
But God say's,
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth"
---MarkV. on 10/25/10

Richard, here is something you may want to read! Contradicts your Romans entry!

2 Timothy 2:20-21 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

According to these verses, are you then a vessel of Honor by YOUR WORKS or God's Grace? AND is this concerning SALVATION or Service?..just as Romans also is saying!
---kathr4453 on 10/25/10

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Micha, I'm not trying to convince anyone or you of anything as you suppose. I'm bringing the Word of God in Truth so that if God wanted to reveal something to others He would, if not, then it would not matter. That is my duty as a believer in Christ since I do not know who the elect are, and who are not or whether they have been saved already or about to be saved. You can believe or not. Whatever choice you make has already been ordained. If you choose not to believe in the Truth when it is presented to you from anyone, then it was not your turn. If God wants to reveal something new to me today, He will provide the means for me to get it. Whatever God ordained from the foundation of the world, will come to pass for He makes no mistakes.
---MarkV. on 10/25/10

ROMANS 9,22 Hath not the potter power over the clay,of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour,and another unto dishonour?
---RICHARD on 10/24/10

Context, context CONTEXT determines meaning.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, because of whom are all things, and through whom are all things, having brought many sons to glory, to perfect Him as the Author of their salvation through sufferings.

Christ atonement (It is Finished) did exactly what if was intended to his people from their sins.Matt1:21

Joh 17:2 as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life.

Joh 10:26 But you do not believe for you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
---steven-rem7000 on 10/24/10

"Limited Atonement" must not be misunderstood that Christ's death was not able to save all mankind. It simply means that Christ came for a purpose - "for HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins." (Matthew 1:21) His death therefore was only meant for HIS PEOPLE.

And who are His people? Only God (the Father, Son & Holy Spirit) knows who He has chosen. As Christ declared in John 6:37, "All that the FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Christ's mission was clear and that His death was only for those whom His Father has given to Him, making the atonement limited ONLY to HIS PEOPLE.
---christan on 10/24/10

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Mark, what nationality are you?
I dont mean to be insulting. Its just that you totally get a lot of things backwards as though you have a hard time understanding english sentence structure. Like the thing the Micha just had to correct you on in 2 Peter 3:7 about the HEAVENS AND EARTH being reserved for fire, not the scoffers.

//God directs the steps of man. They perish because they were destined to perish//

A man's heart deviseth HIS WAY but the LORD directeth HIS STEPS

The man's WAY is not determined by God (Calvinism). But God uses the way the man has chosen to go and places events (steps) in his life that God is able to use for HIS own glory and to show his power. Pharoah is a perfect example of this.
---JackB on 10/24/10

Read this prayer Christ prayed before His death to the Father in John 17

Verse 6 - "I have manifested thy name unto the men which THOU GAVEST ME out of the world: THINE THEY WERE, and THOU GAVEST THEM ME, and they have kept thy word."

Verse 9 - "I PRAY FOR THEM: I pray not for the world, BUT FOR THEM which THOU HAST GIVEN ME, for THEY ARE THINE."

Does this sound like EVERYONE IN THE WORLD will benefit from Christ's death or only those whom the Father has given to Him? And who are they? God's ELECT, those whom He love before the foundation of the world.
---christan on 10/24/10

I do not doubt the fact that God does indeed intervene in the lives of men to bring about certain events to ensure his plan of salvation. Certain things had to happen in order to bring Jesus Christ into the world. The Jews had to deny him and hate him and deliver him up before the judges to be crucified.

There IS an election of grace. It was for the JEWS! If God hadnt "reserved" the disciples for example to believe in Christ and follow him then NOONE would have spread the gospel to the rest of the world. Some HAD TO BELIEVE just as some HAD TO NOT BELIEVE in order for salvation to come to the entire world. This is what chapters 10 and 11 of Romans show us.
---JackB on 10/24/10

The most interesting part of the battle of doctrines concerning this matter is that Calvinists wont quote from Romans chapters 10 and 11. One reason why..


Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
---JackB on 10/24/10

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MarkV, it is pointless to argue, in your view, since God is controlling the responses, attitudes, and mindsets. Therefore, any discussion on your part negates anything you think is truth about this manner. Your interpretation is wrong and any remark to the contrary proves your interpretation to be wrong by trying to convince anyone that can't, in your view, otherwise be convinced.
For God controls all our strength, mind, body, and soul.
On the other hand, God can allow events to take place and decisions to be made without affecting His character.
---micha9344 on 10/24/10


JOHN 6,37 ALL that the Father giveth me Shall come to me,
DANIEL 12:2 And Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, and SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE,AND SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT,
MATTHEW 22:13 For many are called, but few chosen.
REVELATION 17,14 THESE shall make war with the lamb shall overcome them, for he is LORD OF LORDS, and KING OF KING and THEY THAT are with him ARE CALLED and CHOSEN, and Faithful

You Have to see what the whole Bible is Saying, IF you have conflict between verses You do not have Truth.
---RICHARD on 10/24/10

Micha 2: "to the intend that Jehovah might bring evil upon Absalom." 2 Sam. 17:14.
"for they stumble because they disobey the Word, 'as they were destined to do.' 1 Peter 2:8,9.
"And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved: but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days" Mark 13:20.
"And all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb, that was slain"
Your argument contradicts Scripture. God directs the steps of man. They perish because they were destined to perish from the foundation of the world.
---MarkV. on 10/24/10

Cluny, the beloved that Peter was talking about was the believers. It was not God talking of His beloved. It was Peter who was. For we know that the beloved Peter was talking about is explained again in verses 3:16-18, where he warns the beloved "you therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with error of the wicked" There was the wicked, and there was the beloved who he was speaking about.
---MarkV. on 10/24/10

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The illustration you gave contradicts all passages that speak about what God does because He will's it to be done, Your argument implies that God is not able to stop those who are parishing, when Scripture declares
" A man's heart deviceth his way, But Jehovah directed his steps" Prov. 16:9
"And the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of Jehovah" Ezra 7:6.
"They harkened not into the voice of their father, because Jehovah was minded to slay them" 1 Sam. 2:25.
"And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, the council of Hushai is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For Jehovah had ordained to defeat the counsel of Ahithophel,
---MarkV. on 10/24/10

MarkV, who lives on earth who is NOT beloved by God?

The only reason any of us exist is because of God's overflowing creative love.
---Cluny on 10/23/10

In context, heaven and earth are reserved for fire at the time of judgment, the scoffers are not reserved, nor are they preserved.
The 'any' and 'all' in verse 9 refer to the 'ungodly men' in verse 7, for the godly will not perish, but the ungodly, 'not willing that any should perish'. Also the godly have already repented, hence being godly, the ungodly need repentance, hence 'but all should come to repentance'.
Notice the word 'should' in these statements.
We were once ungodly, but now, through the grace of God, we have repented and shall not perish.
The 'any' and 'all' cannot in any way refer to the godly, the believers, the elect, the sealed, nor the children of God, for we are adopted upon belief and faith in His promises.
---micha9344 on 10/23/10

Micha, very much out of Context.
by avoiding the context you changed the meaning Peter's comment while addressing the beloved, the believers in Christ. chapter 3 shows he speaks to the beloved, that there would be scoffers in the last days. Saying where is the Promise? And then mentions that from the beginning, the scoffers where there had parished. Now listen to what Peter says about these scoffers,"But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same Word, are reserved for fire until the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men"
If Peter was stating that the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, and not willing that any single person should parish, then why are the scoffers reserved for Judgment?
---MarkV. on 10/23/10

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Micha 2: Peter says "longsuffering toward "Us" Speaking of the beloved, the people of God. He waits for them to be saved. He has an immense capacity for patience before He breaks forth in judgment ( verse 15, Joel 2:13, Luke 15:20, Rom. 9:22, 1 Peter 3:15). God endures endless blashpemies against His name, along with rebellion, and on going breaking of His law, waiting patiently while He is calling and redeeming His own. "Not willing that any should parish" The "any" refers to those whom the Lord has chosen and will call to complete the redeemed the "us." Since the whole passage is about God's destroying the wicked. "All should come to repentance" refers to the elect.
---MarkV. on 10/23/10

Those that agree with him.
---JackB on 10/23/10

\\I learned this from reading Iohn Foxe's book The Actes and Monuments of Martyrs 1583.\\

And who made HIM the standard of who's a Christian and who isn't?
---Cluny on 10/22/10

Nay verily, Lutherans are true Christians too. I learned this from reading Iohn Foxe's book The Actes and Monuments of Martyrs 1583.

Lutherans, Protestants, and the New England Puritans (Calvinists) all heeded to the Bible and agreed that Saint Augustine taught truly.

Modern evangelical churches and Baptist churches can go on to continue complaining of their constant lukewarmness (that has been mended when?), I however am not fooled by them anymore.
---Kev on 10/22/10

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All Calvinists,

If God made his decision whom He would save before the world began then he obviously didnt make the decision based on the believers denomination.

Other denominations do not need to convert to Calvinism as a prerequisite for salvation, nor do they need to convert to Calvinism in order to keep it.

If you believe either one of these things then you are just as guilty of false teachings as those Jewish believers who were teaching that men must first become a Jew by circumcision before they can become a Christian (Galatians).

Its the same sin.

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me
---JackB on 10/22/10

Either you have the Holy Spirit and I don't or vice-versa. But I assure you that the spirit that's guiding us is definitely "two different" spirit.
---christan on 10/22/10

That statement is spiritually challenged. You can have the Holy Spirit and be so full of your own idea that he can't influence you too. Now I've shown you yet another point where you fail to discern spiritual things. Will you say I am confused? If you want to believe that I'm ok with it, one thing that IS CERTAIN however, one of us is a false teacher pushin some doo doo.
---Pharisee on 10/22/10

It's confusion to deny what's obvious, and it is obvious that the Bible presents two different views. My belief actually reconciles these views, yours can't. So which of us is really confused here Mr. Christian...go on say it, I'm You are.

Your confusion is found in the fact that you believe one has to cancel the other out. Why do you allow scriptures to remain in your Bible that oppose your narrow view of the way God works? Why haven't you crossed them out yet? If you believe in the absolute predestination of every soul on earth you need to. Did the Lord say or not that he would draw ALL MEN unto himself? He did, not all will be saved, but the sacrifice was extended to ALL MEN.
---Pharisee on 10/22/10

Christan, it is sad that you totally missed what Pharisee said and felt the need to break it all down into the "haves" and the "have nots". One thing I know about Pharisee is that he prayerfully seeks an answer and then gives it, quite unlike those who feel it is a waste of time to do so. His posts have always been consistent and spoken in love. He doesn't water down the gospel nor does he consider himself higher than others. His God encompasses all things everywhere. Yours limits Himself to a few. He desires His house full and I can't imagine such a great big God living in a little bitty house...or His house being so small only a few can enter and enjoy the company.
---Linda on 10/22/10

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Pharisee, you said - "This issue is one where the Bible clearly teaches two different things about God..."

If you are taught by the Holy Spirit, you will never ever make such a claim that "the Bible clearly teaches two different things about God". Why? Because Christ says "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth, for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will tell you things to come." (John 16:13)

Sound like the Holy Spirit will teach the Christian confusion? Either you have the Holy Spirit and I don't or vice-versa. But I assure you that the spirit that's guiding us is definitely "two different" spirit.
---christan on 10/22/10

Hebrews 2:9>>>Death is one significant quality that makes man lower than the angels. Jesus conquered death through His resurrection. The righteous has escaped the second death, that the Bible speaks of. The lost will have a second death it is called hell, my friends....Also, The angels cannot participate in weddings and funerals. We will not either. Have a good day, everyone.
---catherine on 10/22/10

\\Limited Atonement, No such thing. Hallelujah. Either you got it or you don't.\\

catherine, it's obvious that you don't know what the phrase "limited atonement" means.

It does NOT mean (as you seem to think), that one can be partially saved.

It means that God intended only certain people--a limited number--to be saved.
---Cluny on 10/22/10

2Pe 3:7-10 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
all? any? out of context?
---micha9344 on 10/22/10

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\\The "every man" here in Hebrews is specifically to those whom God only love.\\

This is an example of eisogesis--reading INTO a passage what you have an a priori assumption it says.
---Cluny on 10/22/10

Limited Atonement, No such thing. Hallelujah. Either you got it or you don't. Have you been right with God through His Blood....Right relationship with the living God, though His Son's Blood....Nothing but the Blood, means>>>This is what was needed to satisfy the living God, THE sacrificial death of His Son, JESUS CHRIST. Hallelujah, Thank You Jesus++Because, of our personal sins, thanks to Adam and Eve, We are not Worthy to have a relationship with God. And this is what gets people a one-way ticket to hell. Good woks, being ABLE to say Jesus, Lord does not make you worthy of heaven, NO! [Ecc. 7:20, Romans 3:23].
---catherine on 10/22/10

The "every man" here in Hebrews is specifically to those whom God only love.

Christian are you kidding here? Look up in strong's greek word # 3956

It is saying the opposite of what you have taught. This issue is one where the Bible clearly teaches two different things about can approach it from the standpoint one is true and the other is not, but now you have to conclude that the scriptures are false and not the inerrant word of God. The more balanced and sensible way is to understand that God is big enough for both to be true. I hate to say it, but my God is bigger than yours.
---Pharisee on 10/22/10

Thank you, Pharisee. Amen.
---Linda on 10/22/10

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May I kindly ask Pharisee, are you "another" blogger that comments frequently here?
---Kev on 10/22/10

To say that God creates people with the intention of them having no choice but be bound for the flames is ludicrous. The predestination crowd is overlooking this: God gives to men their sense of righteousness, it's written in Romans 1:20, why? So that we can know him and be "without excuse."

So now they bring out their God that defies the sense of fair play he's installed in every man so that he can know him and be saved. A holy God simply would not do that. Here man, here's your sense of judgment from me so you can know me and make your laws, now I'll strip that away and become different from what I've shown you was right and convicted you of all your life? BLASPHEMY of BLASPHEMIES, let hell boil over in protest!!!
---Pharisee on 10/22/10

Micha 2: Of course the words "whom Him loved" is not found in Ehp. 1, but is explained in the next chapter 2:4 who this people are who are saved. "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" The "us" and the "we" are the same people who are mentioned in Eph. 2:4. Those are not different saints, but the same one's who were chosen from the foundation of the world.
---MarkV. on 10/22/10

christian gives a great explanation. What most people fail to consider are the questions: Why would a just, and righteous, and holy God, choose any of us? Why would he atone for even one of us? Why would he love me?
The only answer I can find is:

Eph1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL,
Eph1:6 To the praise of the GLORY OF HIS GRACE, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
---trey on 10/22/10

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Micha, Christian did not add "whom God loves" to the passage in Eph 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, "because of His great love with which He loved us". If you took the time to read the passages those words are there. He was speaking to those who believed, the saved. You judged him wrongly. If he made a mistake I could see you correcting him. You did not address him but accused him. And tried to make is seem as if he is lying when he was speaking truth.
I read the passage you gave in 2 Peter 3:9, you imply that God isn't willing that any in the world should parish. The context does not support you view. What you accuse Christian of doing, you did the opposite, you took the passage out of context.
---MarkV. on 10/22/10

tommy7376 on 10/21/10
I agree with most of what you say, except if atonement is limited it is limited by man.
Christ completed His work on the cross, now man can accept it or reject it
---michael_e on 10/21/10

Tommy & Michael ... That's OK, but what the predestinationalists, such as MarkV and Christan, preach is that God only calls a few, and so the rest don't get a chance of repentance.

That's a just God for you!
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/21/10


So you're saying that when the Bible explicitly says "every man", it doesn't mean "every man" at all. So who is changing the Word of God?
---StrongAxe on 10/21/10

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2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Keep quoting scripture, let them add things like 'whom God loves' to fit into their false doctrine and explain it away.
---micha9344 on 10/21/10

And what did Jesus say on "forgiveness"?
If we forgive others we will be forgiven.
If we do not forgive we will not be forgiven of ours.
And,the lawyer asked Jesus what will it take to have eternal life?And Jesus's reply to this lawyer was and still is to him and us is?And after the lawyer spoke his response Jesus said to him do this and you will live.So far former quotes posted from others are from Paul not Jesus.
Jesus already made his stand on forgiveness and how to recieve eternal life.Paul emphasized an atonement.The two are not compatiable and Paul's atonement doctrine has submerged Jesus's teachings of forgiveness for over 2000 yrs. Not many seem to notice what Jesus taught.
---earl on 10/21/10

Paul clearly declares that in the redemption of the sinner, there's a sequence as in Romans 8:30 - "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Keywords: Predestinate - those only whom God love "before the foundations of the world" (ephesians 1), Called - in God's time He will call the sinner (elect) to repentance through faith in Christ, Justified - justification by faith (romans 3 & 4), Glorified - will be glorified in Christ on the day of the Lord

The redemption of God's elects has been accomplished in Christ, now is the calling and application...
---christan on 10/21/10

If you understand the Scriptures you will see that atonement is indeed limited, by God when we are told "whosoever will." God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for the sins of the whole world, but, only the ones who come to Him will receive the full pardon purchased by Christ on Calvary.
---tommy7376 on 10/21/10

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Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us(not some of us) in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
We and us meant we and us in Paul's time and still means we and us.
---michael_e on 10/21/10

Definately NOT Biblical..

Christ tasted death for every man (Heb 2:9)

Christ died NOT just for US, but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)

God calls all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

Christ is drawing all men to himself (John 12:32)
---JackB on 10/21/10

The "every man" here in Hebrews is specifically to those whom God only love. So the question is "does God love every man"? Bible says no as declared by God Himself when He told Rebecca, "As it is written, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:13)

So who's the "every man" that will receive grace from God? Jesus simply declares: (John 6:37) - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

"Limited atonement" is very biblical and no one can change the Word of God!
---christan on 10/21/10

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