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Don't Eat With Idolators

Do you obey this scripture? First Corinthians 5:11, "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat."---- If not why not?

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 ---mima on 10/26/10
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Linda, no matter the fact that we do not agree on many issues or topics of Scripture, I would like to wish you a wonderful New Year in the Lord, and with hope that He keeps you safe, Peace to you and family,
---Mark_V. on 12/31/10


Linda, so with your argument you are suggesting that when Jesus said, ""Forgive them for they know not what they do"
that the Father forgave all of them. Is that your conclusion? Are you saying everyone that was responsible for his death, and that means all people, since Jesus died for the sin of the world, that they were forgiven?
---Mark_V. on 12/29/10


how can any Christian call an enemy of the cross his friend? and again where's the limit between love and righteousness. best advice is to look at all the times jesus was invited to eat somewhere and how he reacted upon different persons. the main purpose of Christ's fellowshipping was to reveal the kingdom. with us we tend to "adapt to our host" stay away from sin.
---andy3996 on 12/28/10


This is a very difficult scripture to practice. Especially when someone you love claims to be a Christian yet is living contrary to God's word. To stop fellowship with them is painfully difficult & sad. But the question to ask yourself is who do you love more? This scripture isn't talking about the ones who doesn't claim to be saved. It's talking about the ones who claim to be saved, yet are living in sin. How many Christians actually obey this scripture & how many ignore it & hope it doesn't mean what it says?
---Reba on 12/16/10


Since God does not look upon the appearance but upon man's heart, those who crucified Jesus were acting out the sin in every man's heart. When Jesus cried out to the Father to forgive them, He was speaking of all those in Adam whose sin crucified Him. Standing at that same cross, one of those centurions heard Jesus cry out, "It is finished" and believed He was surely the Son of God. In the shadow of the cross grace is applied, sin is forgiven, and man can believe.
---Linda on 12/16/10




Linda,
I love your answers
---duane on 12/16/10


Forgiveness is not salvation. Reconciliation through forgiveness came by the death of Christ, the very same death He died for all men. Salvation comes by His life which must be received. Reconciliation is the reason any man can call upon the name of the Lord ande be saved. Reconciliation and salvation are NOT the same. One comes by His death (already accomplished and never done again), the other by His life (always continuing).
---Linda on 12/16/10


//I myself didn't find one passage that indicates that the Father saved all those people who crucified Him. Not in my Bible anywhere. Jesus was expressing His feelings as a human being in His prayer. "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do"//

No human being with the fallen sin nature could rightfully call God "Father" nor would his nature cause him to desire forgiveness for those who wronged him, so Jesus could not have been expressing mere human desires. Forgiveness is authored by God not man. If Jesus was expressing fallen human desires, a whole new can of worms is opened up regarding fallen man seeking after God.
---Linda on 12/16/10


AG, keep wondering. As long as there is a wonder, there is a teachable spirit ready to hear the answer.
---Linda on 12/16/10


AG, I will say this: I believe the answer is "both". Jesus knew their ignorance because He bore it as an aspect of sin and the curse. As the bearer of the sin and curse, He cried out on their behalf. That is why, in Acts, it is said that God winked in the times of man's ignorance, but now commands every man everywhere to repent. Something took place at the cross that stopped the wink that kept God from fully beholding man in his ignorance. Now He beholds man through a completed, reconciliatory work because of Jesus.
---Linda on 12/16/10




I myself didn't find one passage that indicates that the Father saved all those people who crucified Him. Not in my Bible anywhere. Jesus was expressing His feelings as a human being in His prayer. "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do" All of the Jews and Romans were not aware of the full scope of their wickedness. They did not recognize Him as the true Messiah (Acts 13:27,28). They were blind to the light of divine truth, "For if they had understood they would not have crucified Him." They were blind for one purpose so that the will of God would be done on the life of Christ Jesus.
But no where does Scripture indicate that all of the people were ever born again, or saved.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/10


linda - "Those who actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus were 'forgiven for they knew not what they did'."

Interesting point Linda. I wonder if they were forgiven because of their ignorance...or because Christ prayed to the Father for their forgiveness.
If it's the former, that would suggest ignorant non-christians are just as forgiven as repentant Christians.
Hmmm...interesting.
---AG on 12/16/10


Those who actually carried out the crucifixion of Jesus were "forgiven for they knew not what they did". What Jesus said from the cross is far more powerful than what the people beneath the cross were doing to Him.
---Linda on 12/16/10


Leej ... "There are those who would impose our value system onto God, not accepting as fact that God is sovereign and will do whatever pleases Him for his own glory"

There is no-one here who has ever argued against God's sovereignty

We ALL accept that God has absolute power, and can do whaever he wants.

That does not mean He needs to be a dictator or puppeteer. He is so powerful that He can and does allow us to decide whether to accept or reject His rule.

And as you say, He permits evil men to do their evil. But Hitler also did his evil for God's glory?
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/16/10


Kathryn //One such philosophy ... You left out CALVINISM.

Virtually everything that Calvin believed and wrote about has the backing of Scripture and his interpretation most often reflect those of previous teachers of His church.

There are those who would impose our value system onto God, not accepting as fact that God is sovereign and will do whatever pleases Him for his own glory. He even permitted evil men to deliver up Joseph into Egypt as well as permitted other evil men to crucify His son Jesus.

And such people will have to give account for their actions even if they were used for God's glory.
---leej on 12/15/10


While off the topic, I will respond to what I believe makes up dispensationalism

A dispensation is a period of time in which God deals in a particular way with man i.r.t sin & to man's responsibility.

It is an attempt to divide history into 7 different periods -

1. Innocence, from Adam to the Expulsion from Eden
2. Conscience - from the Fall to the Flood
3. Human Govt - the Flood to Babel
4. Promise - from Abraham to Sinai
5. Law - Sinai to Calvary
6. Grace - from Calvary to the 2d Advent
7. Kingdom, from 2d Advent to New heaven, new earth.

Source: Scofield Bible Course, vol. 1. p. 46f

In conclusion, none of the verses in scripture that mentions dispensation make sense under this criteria.
---leej on 12/14/10


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I would like to say to a none christian friend of mine, "lets have dinner and talk about it ( salvation)"

That would be perfectly as Ok as Jesus eating with Zacchaeus.

You should be able to witness to someone, eat with them, be their friend, and at the same time tell them about jesus without partaking of their sins.
---francis on 12/14/10


Francis, your interpretation of those passages from 1 Cor.5: 9-13 are correct. Those passages were talking about "anyone named a brother" in the church. Paul said he had wrote to them before (v.9) and written in ( 2 Thess. 3:6-15). This judgment was for the church and he mentions in (v. 12) judging those outside. Here the subject is judging someone in side. Who is suppose to be saved already. to kick him out so it can bring shame to him.
What I was referring to David, was who we should associate with. Not judging someone. We are called to not be conformed to the world. We should witness to the World but not be of the world. Two very different topics.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/10


leej,
You mentioned "cultural Christians"...great point. Prior to Constantine their were no cultural Christians. Now you have watch people's actions closely to see if they are standing on the Word of God or if they are just standing on the word of their socially acceptable Christian peers.
---AG on 12/13/10


One such philosophy ----
---leej on 12/12/10

leej, You left out CALVINISM.

I've never heard of dispensationalism being a religion, considering Paul himself talks about him being given THIS DISPENSATION: AKA the Church age to you and me.

One must ask God first what he meant, before admitting one's ignorance they never saw the verse before.

But to categorize a dispensation with a hindue or muslin is the most bazzar comparison I have yet to come across in my entire life.

If you believe there is a difference between the OT and New, you're a dispensationalist whether you like the term or not.
Otherwise leej, you need to obey the SABBATH, makng all francis says as true!
---kathr4453 on 12/13/10


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MARKV
The issue here is that a member of the church in corinth was sleeping with his father's wife. The church body did not discipling him. SO paul asked that he be put out.

Paul is not saying to individuals that they should not eat with sinner*. But rather those who call themselves brothers who turn to sin, must be disciplined.
Again this is not a command to tell individual member that they cannot eat with idolators or fornicators. How else do you win one to church if you do not interact with him?
<>1 Corinthians 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters, for then must ye needs go out of the world.


---francis on 12/12/10


1 Corinthians 5:9-11 NKJV

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner not even to eat with such a person.

Paul makes it VERY obvious who he is talking about here. Pull out your Bible and read it again. Francis and Trish are absolutely correct.
---Linda on 12/12/10


While we strive to reach out to the unbeliever that they may come to faith, the tread is whether we should eat and drink with those who called themselves OUR BROTHERS, but really are not.

There are many today who are basically cultural Christians believing not in the word of God, but in some religious philosophy.

One such philosophy is the belief that Jesus is but only one way to God, that being a good Muslim,Hindu, SDA, Dispensationist, etc. or whatever will lead you to eternal life.
---leej on 12/12/10


Hello sister Trish, what you said is very true. Jesus did do that, but He was God. We on the other hand are still in the flesh which is sinful. And we are commandment not to be of the world, and one reason is that when you hang around with the world, you begin to act like the world. We are to witness to the world the good news but those things were told to us for our own good.
---Mark_V. on 12/12/10


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MarkV: Francis is not wrong. Jesus ate with the sinners, and visited them in their homes, and He was without sin. If He is not sinning in dining with the sinners, then how is it wrong for us to do the same?
---Trish9863 on 12/12/10


//It is important that church members eat and even mingle with fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner so that we can win some to christ.

In view of what olde Ellen White preached, can you associate with those that love the Lord and follow Him totally, but do not observe the Jewish Sabbath?

Or like fools proclaims, those that do not observe the Sabbath are agents of Satan?
---leej on 12/11/10


Francis, I wanted to ask you if you wanted to correct the last statement you made. You said,

"It is important that church members eat and even mingle with fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner so that we can win some to christ."
Did you make a mistake or do you really believe what you said?
We are to witness to the world, but not to associate with the world, for we are called not to. If you are going to eat with them and mingle with them, you are in fact of the world while you are with them. In 1 Cor, the point was that the Church members had stopped having contact with the unsaved in the world, while continuing to tolerate the sin of those in the Church.
---Mark_V. on 12/11/10


First Corinthians 5:11 Is not written as a command for any individual. It is a command given to THE CHURCH, so that anyone who calls himself a brother, and is also found being a "fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner" Can be put out of the church by the church leaders.

It is important that church members eat and even mingle with fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner so that we can win some to christ.
---francis on 12/10/10


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1Co 6:18

that verse still does not have to do with magnitude or rank. it has to do with the direction or target.

If you have broken one you have broken them all.

How is an unmarried couple of 50 who have no siblings and no other ties commit sexual immorality together more serious than if one murders the other?
---aka on 12/11/10


Leej Paul was at that time addressing the issue of sexual sin, not other sins. He did not say that sexual sin was worse than others.

You presumably say that murder does not harm the murderer's body, so is not as bad as sexual sin. But does not murder harm the murderer's soul .... and is not the soul more important than the body?
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/11/10


leej,
Sexual immorality is definantly a sin against a man's own body...thats a statement of fact. It does not necessarily equate to being a more devastating sin than any other.
Which is more devastating...a man having lustful thoughts of his neighbor's wife (sexual immorality) or a man murdering his neighbor's wife?
---AG on 12/11/10


leej,
Ultimately the question is does God take some sins more seriously than others...the answer is only 'yes' if the OT abominations are still relevent.
---AG on 12/11/10


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//BUT The question was "Does not scripture rank sexual immorality as a more graven sin than others"

I believe it does.

1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality (KJV fornication). EVERY OTHER SIN a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

Perhaps you have further comments on what this verse is telling us?

Is not sexual immorality something that violates more than just one commandment?
---leej on 12/10/10


Leej & Mark. .... I agree with you about sexual sin being graver than some others, and yes it does harm ourselves, as well as causing hurt, often irreparable, to others.

BUT The question was "Does not scripture rank sexual immorality as a more graven sin than others"

And I think the answer to that is NO, but if I'm wrong please show the scriptures.

But there are other sins which can't be repaired: You can't replace a man's business if you have ruined it by embezzlement, nor his reputation after slander, nor his life after murder, nor his body after grievous injury.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/9/10


leej,
I disagree with your premise that sexual sin is the most destructive. Sin may take different forms but it can be equally destructive regardless of form.
And as far as making amends for non-sexual sins...you can't make amends for suicide or murder.

HOWEVER God did proclaim certain sins in the OT to be "abominations". Therefore you could say some sins are worse than others. That is if you think that God's expectations of man is the same today as it was in the OT.
---AG on 12/9/10


Leej, I completely agree with you. Some sins are more grave then others though all of them are sins. The Bible still regards some sins as more heinous than others. There are degrees of wickedness even as there will be degrees of punishment rendered at the bar of God's justice. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for omitting the weightier matters of the law and warned the towns of Bethsaida and Chorazin that their sin was worse than that of Sodom and Gomorrah, Matt. 11:20-24.
---Mark_V. on 12/9/10


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alan8566_of_UK//"Does not scripture rank sexual immorality as a more graven sin than others" No

Clearly the wrong answer as sexual sin if far more destructive than most other sin.

I could make amends if I stole something, lied about something, etc. but if I committed sexual sin, there is no way I could make amends for that as I have sinned against my own body.
---leej on 12/9/10


"Does not scripture rank sexual immorality as a more graven sin than others"

No
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/9/10


AG//How do you characterize the "moral purity of Christians"? And how do you rank the harmfulness of the various forms of immorality?

Does not scripture rank sexual immorality as a more graven sin than others?

1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

How do I rank sin? Much like they do with firecrackers, dynamite and other types of explosives in that some do more damage than others.

Many godly people have fallen by the way side because they have not heeded the scriptural command 'not to keep company' with those that claim to be brothers in Christ but whose lifestyle is far from Christ-like.
---leej on 12/8/10


leej -
"something that does not characterize the moral purity of Christians"
"sexual immorality is probably the most harmful to the witness of a church"

How do you characterize the "moral purity of Christians"?
And how do you rank the harmfulness of the various forms of immorality?
---AG on 12/8/10


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I think the phrase considered here is "if any man that is called a brother be...", something that does not characterize the moral purity of Christians. Immorality especially sexual immorality is probably the most harmful to the witness of a church.

1Co 15:33 Do not be deceived: Bad company ruins good morals.
---leej on 12/6/10


It seems to me that an idolator is like a drowning man.
You can attempt to save him by jumping in with him, but there's a good chance you may also drown in the process. Throwing them a life preserver from a safe distance would be wiser.
---AG on 11/23/10


As Donna66 and Christian explained, Paul was talking to brothers in the Church, and makes that clear in v. 11. In verse 11 he mentions "with one named a brother" So this passages are talking about some people in the Church. To not keep company with them. We are to judge only the ones in the inside of the Church, God judges those on the outside. Evidently, the church had misinterpreted the advice in a prior epistle (v.9) and had stopped having contact with the unsaved in the world, while continuing to tolerate the sin of those in the church, which was even more dangerous to the fellowship. (John 17:15, 18). God intends us to be in the world as witnesses (Matt. 5:13-16, Acts 1:8, Phil. 2:15).
---Mark_V. on 11/9/10


If not why not?

We are to judge (yes, I said judge) these "so-called" brethren and discharge them from the local assembly if they continue in their sin. We are not to associate with them until they repent of their sin.

This passage is very clear and is another reason for the lack of power within the BOC. We do not exercise judgment on sin within our local assemblies.

Remember, Jesus told us to first take the plank our of our eye before we attempt to take the speck out of our brother's eye.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/8/10


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In America "segregation" has become a dirty word, but its not according to scripture. Paul told the Corinthians the same thing the prophets told Israel...be seperate/be set apart/be a light to the fools who are rushing toward destruction.
---AG on 11/8/10


Quite possible because these type people are not very nice people to know. A fornicator will sleep with your husband/wife,a drunkard is usually violent and mean-spirited,a railer will murder/fight and so on. Who wants to be friends with someone like that? I don't. So don't even let them come to your house. Or in your house. If they are not around you ,they want be able to eat with you or do anything with you. That's why!
As much as possible. I do obey this scripture. I do have family members who rail, drunkard etc...I don't go out of my way to be around them. But they are family. I certainly don't let other people who do this, into my home.
---Robyn on 11/7/10


Augie, my daddy was slender and died of cancer. I know being obese is bad for the health, but you seem huge (pardon the pun) in judgmentalism, my dear.
---Mary on 10/30/10

LOL!

I fail to see how I'm being "judgmental" here. Maybe, just maybe . . .

It's because I'm concerned about how the USA is going to pay for the upcoming Healthcare changes. Widely known as Obamacare.

Over-Eating often results in increased Healthcare costs for treating: Diabetes, Cancer, Heart & Circulatory Diseases, etc.

I had better SHUT UP now. I should be getting more "physical excercis
e". Sorry about judging others when I can do more to improve my OWN health.

---Augie on 10/31/10


Augie--- \\ I am very observant of the sin of GLUTTONY, but I don't say anything. I just pray that these FOOD HOGS will see that over-eating isn't good for you.\\

My, you are just brimming with compassion for these poor miserable sinners, aren't you!
---Donna66 on 10/31/10


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Augie, my daddy was slender and died of cancer. I know being obese is bad for the health, but you seem huge (pardon the pun) in judgmentalism, my dear.
---Mary on 10/30/10


I recently attended the funeral of a friend. The number of "Large, Obese, Over-Weight, etc." people was surprising. Many had trouble standing for the funeral.

At the end of the funeral, these folks were the FIRST down the stairs to the fellowship room. Their plates were filled with FOOD to the point of collapsing as they hobbled to tables to sit down.

I am very observant of the sin of GLUTTONY, but I don't say anything. I just pray that these FOOD HOGS will see that over-eating isn't good for you.

By the way, the person who died was once Over-Weight, and died of Cancer. Those extra pounds take their toll on your physical body.
---Augie on 10/30/10


Paul was primarily restating the instructions he had studied in Psalms 101:5 & Eze 22:12.
The are wicked people in all walks of life who will corrupt others. So be careful not to get intagled with them, because they will be destroyed and you don't want to be around when the bomb goes off.
---AG on 10/29/10


"The Apostle Paul was writing to the church at Corinth. Christians were the ones doing these sexual "no no's". This has nothing to do with witnessing to non-Christians. A Christian can't witness, (at least from a positive stand) if they don't go to the non-Christian." - wivv on 10/26/10

Well said wivv.

Many fail to see that the Epistles instructions and teachings were directed to Christians. And even Christians never fail to commit these foolish acts of sinning against God. But make no mistake, no child of God will walk away without being chastised by the Father.

Thank God that salvation is by grace and grace alone.
---christan on 10/29/10


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This scripture was also used by Paul to put a member out of the church. It can still be used today to put members out.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
---francis on 10/29/10


---1st_cliff on 10/29/10 your statement about being kicked out of the Jehovah witness organization is the best thing I know about you!
---mima on 10/29/10


JWs use this scripture to justify shunning.
I was none of those things, I simply "resigned" from the Organization and they used this scripture to dis fellowship (excommunicate) me and read from all the Kingdom Halls within a 100 mile radius .No one spoke to me!
---1st_cliff on 10/29/10


Note the phrase, "if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator...."
There is no prohibition to eat with sinners, as Jesus most certainly did.

"Keeping company" implies fellowship beyond just dining. It gives the impression that you share a number of things as friends (or brothers). Let no one assume you may share in the sins or temptations mentioned.

But be cautious. It would be sad to alienate someone who is merely a victim of gossip.
---Donna66 on 10/26/10


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if not why not?

1 Cor. 15:33-34 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals." Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

There is always the probability of compromising ones standards if we associate with those that are despicable.

2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
---leej on 10/26/10


First Corinthians 5:11, "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat."

THIS REFERS to the church body, we are not to court " members" who live such lifestyle. we are to put them out for the destruction of the flesh. And to an extend in our person life we must also be careful with such people.


1 Corinthians 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters, for then must ye needs go out of the world.
---francis on 10/26/10


Paul is saying, "These people claim to be brother's in Christ in the church, Don't make it so. We are not to mingle, keep company with these sinners....How many times has Satan tried to drag us into wrong relationships. You might as well make friends with the devil. Well, why not? God has gotten into my face several times in the past over this issue. Because, believe it or not folks, I am of the friendly type. Note: Paul in this passage is not speaking of born-again believers, but only of people who has sneaked in among you, pretending to be brother's and sister's in Christ....Also, Paul is not saying never have anything to do with sinners outside of church, you would have to leave this world, for that!
---catherine on 10/26/10


Because holy Christians do not participate in sin. Birds of a feather flock together: Christians with Christians, and dissers with dissers. Many times the language and behavior of nonChristians turns foul and offensive. I delight and am blessed in companies that exult Christ and Christians and righteousness, and not in companies that dis what is good and honorable.
---Eloy on 10/26/10


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Donna5535 Well said ,I agree with you. We are in the World but not of the World therefore we are in a position to witness,just as Christ did,to all the lost we can talk to,about the Lord. The reason we don't fellowship with a brother who does those things is because bad behavior corrupts good morals. We are not to fellowship with people who will push us away from God but we are to fellowship with people who draw us nearer to God. Proverbs22:24,25 The Bible also tells us not to friendship with an angry man lest we learn his ways and get a snare to our souls,that explains the reason to be careful about the company we keep. There is an old adage here which says Rover was a good ole' dog but he was caught running with a bad Pack.
---Darlene_1 on 10/26/10


The Apostle Paul was writing to the church at Corinth. Christians were the ones doing these sexual "no no's". This has nothing to do with witnessing to non-Christians. A Christian can't witness, (at least from a positive stand) if they don't go to the non-Christian.
---wivv on 10/26/10


Better for you to obey the scriptures yourself, mima, than to conduct polls to see if others do.

Donna--great answer.
---Cluny on 10/26/10


It is speaking within the congregation, and yes I do keep to that within the congregation, but thankfully we have a small group,and prayerfully they have a correct heart with God. As for publically we cannot read peoples hearts, only God can.
---candice on 10/26/10


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There are people whose idol is *independence*. So, if you do not eat with idolators . . . how many would this leave for you to eat with? Finding the people you can eat with could be like looking for a needle in a haystack, maybe ? ? ?
---Bill on 10/26/10


Remember, this scripture says "any man called a brother" it doesn't say "unsaved folks."

Why am I pointing this out? Because how can one witness to a drunkard if we don't know any?

How can we tell someone the bible says,"Abstain from every form of fleshly lust" if we stay away from unsaved folks?

The answer to your question is Yes, I do stay away from any man/woman that is a brother or sister in the Lord that does these things. I don't understand WHY they do them because Jesus said, "If you love me, you'll obey me."
---Donna5535 on 10/26/10


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