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Born Of Spirit By God

How does one become born of the Spirit by God? Is it before you are born flesh or after?

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 ---ginger on 10/26/10
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Linda, I really don't have an argument. I gave the word of God to you. All you gave me was your opinion. While Jack gives Scriptures sometimes, the meaning of the passages are not in context with the scriptures he puts down. But that is normal from all of you. Alot of opinions on what you don't like, but what you all like is not Truth from Scripture. Only your own feelings.
The things of the kingdom of God are only given to those who already believe.
"To you (believers) it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." Luke 8:10.
It's funny but none of you answer any of the Scriptures given to you.
---Mark_V. on 11/1/10


JackB, A-men.
---Eloy on 10/31/10


With the responses from MarkV and Christian being what they are it begs for me to ask this ultimate question of them.

WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?

If it is not what Jesus says then what they are saying is not the gospel of Christ.
Since Christ said there is only one, if what they answer to this question does not line up with the word of God it can only be determined that the one they have been taught is false.
---ginger on 10/31/10


//Our Lord and Savior simply declared, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:3,6)//

Do you think its possible that maybe you guys are just interpreting this scripture poorly?

Have you ever considered the possibility that he meant if you arent born again that you will never see Heaven, which is the kingdom of God?

That rebirth occurs when you place your faith in Jesus Christ. Not before. Otherwise there would be NO need for faith in Jesus Christ.
---JackB on 10/31/10


Mark, your argument is with the Word of God, not me. As I have said SO MANY TIMES, the measure of faith given to EVERY MAN is the faith used to believe the gospel unto SAVING FAITH (from faith to faith). The measure of faith and saving faith are not the same, though one becomes the other when it is used to believe the gospel. Every man believes something, even if he believes there is no God. Exposed to the gospel and the conviction of the Holy Spirit of his unbelief in Christ, that man can use his measure to believe the gospel or he can be WILLINGLY ignorant. Your argument is useless since you either didn't really read what I wrote, you forgot what I wrote, or you ignored a portion of what I wrote because you have no SCRIPTURAL answer.
---Linda on 10/31/10




//There are teachings that tells it's people that you must believe first and then you will be born of the spirit///

We are NOT bought with the Holy Spirit. We are bought with the blood of Jesus Christ. That is how we are adopted as sons. We are given Gods spirit because of the adoption (Gal 4:6) to PROVE that we are HIS. AND we are ONLY given that SPirit AFTER we have heard the gospel, believe and put our TRUST in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:13).

How can one be reborn of the Holy Spirit to believe in Christ when we dont even HAVE him until AFTER we have put our trust in Jesus Christ?
---JackB on 10/31/10


Linda, I want you to think in what you said,
Christan, God has given to EVERY MAN the MEASURE OF FAITH. What you are saying God must do from without has already been done. Jesus is the light that lights EVERY MAN who comes into the world"
Here you assume that every person on the planted has been given a measure of faith to believe in Jesus Christ. What that indicates is that all people have faith in Christ Jesus. Muslims, Hindu's and everyone else. Which mean's a Universal salvation.
Why? because you say that Jesus give's His light to every person who is born. So if they have faith, and the light of Christ already shines on them, they must all be saved. What can anyone conclude?
---Mark_V. on 10/31/10


Donna66 -

Our Lord and Savior simply declared, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:3,6)

There are teachings that tells it's people that you must believe first and then you will be born of the spirit.

And then, there's ONLY ONE teaching (and that's from Christ) that declares you first must be born of the Spirit and then you will believe. Many do not believe that when a person believe in God's Word, it's the consequence of faith being given at the time of regeneration.
---christan on 10/31/10


Donna66, you asked why some accept and believe the Gospel when its preached and accept God's grace when he presents it to them?
Its because we have all been given a conscience to tell what is right and what is wrong. Rom. 2:14-15
When you don't follow whats right and true, your conscience gets dull.
Those who don't accept God(Holy Spirit drawing), is because their conscience has been seared with a hot iron and theyve been given over to dillusions. Paul warned us about not keeping a good conscience. Acts 20: 28-32, 2 Thes. 2: 1-12, I Tim. 4: 1-6
God comes to everyone eventually. That is why God can judge righteously when people don't choose to accept him and they turn from him.
---ginger on 10/29/10
---ginger on 10/31/10


Linda, you said - "God has given to EVERY MAN the MEASURE OF FAITH." Kindly show everyone here and myself one verse in the Scripture that such a declaration was made by God.

There's also such a thing as dead faith (and there are many) that leads to destruction and ONLY ONE that leads to salvation in Jesus Christ. And the ONE that leads to salvation is a "gift from God" (Ephesians 2:8). In other words, the dead and sinful man cannot demand from God that he be saved.

It is only by sheer grace from God that He dispenses this gift called "faith" unto the sinner. And the reason is, God loves him in Christ - not because he did good, but because of election through grace.
---christan on 10/31/10




Christan, God has given to EVERY MAN the MEASURE OF FAITH. What you are saying God must do from without has already been done. Jesus is the light that lights EVERY MAN who comes into the world. It takes a giant step to step over those two passages of Scripture and say He must do again something His Word has already plainly said He did and does for every man. Man uses the measure of faith God has given him to respond to the gospel unto saving faith.
---Linda on 10/29/10


2) I have yet to find one entry from you that deals with these two passages of scripture, along with the revealed wrath of God, the conscience, and the creation that all witness to the UNBELIEVER of the existence of God and the end result of those who do not think that knowledge worthy to retain (WILLINGLY ignorant). Instead of dealing with them, you ignore them and stoop to calling those who don't agree with you unbelievers. Again, this witnesses to your lack of use of spiritual discernment and your elevation of knowledge above relationship with God. At least I can say of Mark that he does not judge in regards to salvation. You on the other hand do and suppose to take the place of God by doing so. And you claim we rob God of His power.
---LindaS on 10/29/10


//Hence, we have so much debate and bantering in this blog between people who call themselves "Christians" // ---christan

See - This is the type of stuff that blows my mind. If other people from other denominations have FAITH in Christ (which according to you is given by God) how can you judge people who have faith in Christ as thought they arent elect simply because they dont believe in predestination?

Is believing in predestination now a prerequisite for having FAITH in Jesus Christ? I have never read that in my Bible. ANYwhere!

Im totally expecting to be ignored asking this because its happened many times before but I just had to throw it out there.
---JackB on 10/30/10


Donna5535, the passage you gave in Acts 2:38 is talking about the indwelling of the Spirit of God not Rebirth. Rebirth does not come after a person believes by faith, for if it was as you say, then repentance and baptism would be what saves.
"..Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
This passage refers to the "Indwelling of the Holy Spirit" not "born of the Spirit" Baptism and repentance never saved anyone, we are saved by Grace Donna, through faith. And If it is by works,(acts we ourselves do) it is no longer by the Grace of God, it would be by our own works.
---Mark_v. on 10/30/10


Kathr, the gifts of the Spirit are many. The Spirit brings life, it brings sight, it brings the ears to hear, it brings understanding of the word of God. Without the Spirit a lost person remains, dead, blind, unable to understand the spiritual things of God, cannot hear, least of all understand the Gospel Truth.
A person lost person cannot give himself life, or make himself see, he needs a Supernatual Doctor to give him life, God. Until you humble yourself at the mercy of the Lord, you will remain blind to the Truth. You go so far as to deny the Covenant of Grace to sinners. The same way the Jews did. You want no part of that covenant. You want to remain in the covenant of works, and you do everything possible to reject God's Grace.
---Mark_V. on 10/30/10


If New Testament epistles are written for the sake of believers WHY do they contain so many warnings if there is no danger that we can lose the salvation that God has blessed us with?

The Bible clearly tells us that our salvation is the END of our faith (2 Peter 1:9). There are simply too many IFs in the New Testament for us to ignore them.

Yes - I believe God is faithful and never gives up on us, but we have a responsibility to nurture this new relationship that He has brought us into. We can leave the faith by believing the doctrines of devils. Man can return home as God is forgiving and merciful but we still need to beware. There is clearly a danger of "returning to our own vomit".
---JackB on 10/30/10


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Christan-- I Agreed with your post 0f 10/29. But my question was why?.

WHY will One //acknowledge that faith is a gift from God, that will produce believe and repentance toward God?//

WHY will another //claim that from within himself he can believe in God, making it his own work and contrary to the one mentioned above//

WHAT accounts for the difference between these two. What makes one place his faith in Jesus while the other places faith in his own ability?

Do you have a answer? Kath apparently doesn't.
---Donna66 on 10/30/10


markV, making up verses again? It says those who aren't saved cannot understand the THINGS of the Spirit. Not Gifts!! Things here is plural. Spiritual THINGS like those THINGS you cannot understand. Many THINGS an unsaved person can't understand. I don't believe anyone can argue with that. But what is your point? Paul is talking to carnal worldly minded CHRISTIANS who cannot understand the DEEPER THINGS of God's plan for their life. THINGS like following man's doctrine and how dangerous it is...or how dangerous falling from Grace back to the law, like defiling the Lord table!!

But to make this some definite that God picks you out for salvation is nonsense. Paul is not addressing initial salvation, but our maturity afterwards.
---kathr4453 on 10/29/10


Donna66 - good question asked "Why do YOU think some people recieve the Gospel while others reject it. What makes the difference? Intellect? "spiritual sensitivity"? What?"

Answer is simple - FAITH. But there will always be two answers,

One will acknowledge that faith is a gift from God, that will produce believe and repentance toward God. Faith here is received from without while the man is dead in sins and trespasses.

The other will claim that from within himself he can believe in God, making it his own work and contrary to the one mentioned above.

Hence, we have so much debate and bantering in this blog between people who call themselves "Christians".
---christan on 10/29/10


When you were born of the flesh you had no say, no choice in it. To be born of the Spirit you make the choice. It doesn't happen until you realize you're a sinner, on your way to hell & are sorry for your sins. You must repent of your sins & ask Christ to come into your heart & make you a new person. To give you eternal life with Him. After you've accepted Christ as your Saviour, spend time with Him in prayer & studying His Word to grow spiritually to become closer to God. To be born of the Spirit requires a decided action on your part. It never happens automatically without you asking.
---Reba on 10/29/10


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How does one become born of the Spirit by God?

You "Become" born of the Spirit of God by receiving His Holy Spirit through what the bible says in Acts 2:38 - I'm quoting Peter here.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Once you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, your spirt then becomes alive unto God by the power of His Holy Spirit.
---Donna5535 on 10/29/10


Kath4453 "Your question imply's that God is a respecter of persons."

Not at all. And I'm not talking about some false teaching of the cults. Haven't you ever wondered why some people accept the gospel and Salvation by the sacrifice of Jesus for them on the cross....but others hear the same good news, only to reject it? I have wondered this for years.

Lets assume that no one is "predestined". What qualities make the difference between those who accept the Gospel and those who reject it?
---Donna66 on 10/29/10


Spiritual discernment

1 Cor 2:11,12

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


When do you receive this Spirit? The Bible tells you WHEN.

Eph 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED------>, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
---JackB on 10/29/10


Kathr, again you have no answers. Now comes Covenant of Calvinism, Only you could come out with that one. God's word concerning the lost:
1. "The "unspiritual man" does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and "he is not able to understand" them because they are spiritually discerned"
talking about the unspiritual man.
2. "Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it, yet the Lord set His heart in love upon your fathers and chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is today"
God showing His love to some, that He did not show to others.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/10


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Here is a good example:

The Old Testament Covenant of grace was rejected by Israel, and so He formed a more Gracious Covenant then the one before.
Covenants are created by God not man. And since the fall they have all been of Grace. Anyone that argues against God Grace knows nothing about Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/10



Unbelievable. God NEVER made a covenant of Grace with OT Israel! The law of Moses given to Israel was NEVER a Covenant of Grace, but a a covenant of LAW!!!!

You can't mix Law and Grace...not then not now!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/29/10


Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

MarkV, how do you explain Romans 5:20 in light of Israel rejecting God's Covenant of Grace?

It would appear to me they didn't reject it at all, but gloried in the opportunity to sin to kingdom come so God's Covenant of Grace to them was even more bountiful then to us!!

God forbid we sin that Grace abounds!

So now there are two covenants of Grace not found in scripture? Is that the 3rd one kathr is talking about?
---Laura on 10/29/10


Its even mentioned in scripture that the Spirit is given AFTER believing in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:13) and that Holy Spirit COULD NOT COME until Jesus ascended to the Father. (John 16:7) Jesus personally gave his disciples power to heal and cast out demons. (Luke 9:1)

And when are you guys gonna stop claiming that we save ourself? Its really getting old and its a childish thing to put words in a man's mouth.

GOD does the calling and when we respond to that calling in faith, GOD does the saving. Some men resist the calling. Im sorry that you dont like that, but its scriptural. (Acts 7:51)

Why do you think people go to hell in the first place? For obeying the sovereign will of God?
---JackB on 10/29/10


Covenant Theology AKA Calvinism and its problems:

1)It assumes 2 (or 3) covenants never mentioned in Scripture.

2)It tries to unify scripture by insisting that the Mosaic Covenant is essentially the same as the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul asserts the distinctiveness of these two covenants in Galatians 3:18.

3)It denies the distinctiveness of the gospel of grace and the gospel of the kingdom.

4)It denies the distinction between Israel and the Church.

5)It uses a double standard to interpretation of Scripture. The historical-grammatical method, except for passages concerning future events reverting allegorical or spiritualizing method. Slippery devils!!

6)It places the believer under the law.
---kathr4453 on 10/29/10


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Mark elsewhere accuses me and others who disagree with his predestination:

"The real God of Scripture is no longer God but stands alone in control of nothing, Ruler of nothing, and Savior of no one. Man in control not only of God, but in control of their own destiny. It is the emnity that is still there between them and God. Instead of depending on God, they depend on man to save himself with his own free will, and keep himself saved by his own works. The reason we have those who speak for works for salvation by keeping the Law. They believe they are saved by their own works, "their own freewill"

Mark knows that none of us have said any of those things, so they appear to be deliberate fabrications
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/29/10


"How does one become born of the Spirit by God? Is it before you are born flesh or after?" After. 1 Cor15:36-46
"The spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Verse 46
"Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." Rom 6:6
---josef on 10/29/10


How can the calvanist take one verse and build a whole religeon. God predestined all who want to be born again. He didn't call some and reject others. He calls everyone. John 3:16 says it all. God works in ways we don't know or understand. All I know is The Holy Spirit drew me and I was saved. That is the miracle of all miracles. All who are saved are His elite.
---shira3877 on 10/29/10


Mark says "He has graciously made Covenants between Himself and the sinner, in order that His grace can be displayed"

And then it has to go on:

"He has graciously made Covenants between Himself and the sinner, in order that He can withhold grace from the vast majority of sinners, so that they cannot repent, in order that His hate can be displayed when He consigns them to Hell".
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/29/10


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kathr-- Why do YOU think some people recieve the Gospel while others reject it. What makes the difference? Intellect? "spiritual sensitivity"? Past life experiences? Inborn characteristics?
What?
---Donna66 on 10/28/10

I believe it depends on WHAT Gospel is preached. Exactly what Gospel does Calvin preach? Or Joseph Smith, or the Jw's or the RCC. There are 1001 gospels being preached. When the correct one is preached, the HOLY SPIRIT is present and That one has the Power alone.

Donna66, Your question imply's that God is a respecter of persons.

MarkV, no one is questioning Covenants God made. BUT Covenant Calvinism is a man made-up covenant that is not in Scripture.
---kathr4453 on 10/29/10


kathr-- Why do YOU think some people recieve the Gospel while others reject it. What makes the difference? Intellect? "spiritual sensitivity"? Past life experiences? Inborn characteristics?
What?
---Donna66 on 10/28/10


MarkV, Your wrong belief that I am confused is a misperception on your part. The poster asks: "Is becoming born of the Spirit by God before you are born flesh, or after?" Therefore plainly there is no confusion here in my direct answer, but only in your belief.
---Eloy on 10/29/10


Donna66, you asked why some accept and believe the Gospel when it is preached and accept God's grace when he presents it to them?
Well it is because we have all been given a conscience to tell what is right and what is wrong. Romans 2:14-15
When you don't follow what is right and true, your conscience gets dull.
Those who don't accept God when he comes to them (Holy Spirit drawing), is because their conscience has been seared with a hot iron and they have been given over to dillusions. Paul even warned us about not keeping a good conscience. Acts 20: 28-32, 2 Thes. 2: 1-12, I Tim. 4: 1-6
Donna66, God comes to everyone eventually. That is why God can judge righteously when people don't choose to accept him and they turn from him.
---ginger on 10/29/10


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All the talk about Calvinism has blind you kathr. You called all the covenants since the fall perverted. You must not belong to any of them then. It's clear you know nothing about what you are talking about.

For God makes the Covenants, He does not have, but does because He is Gracious. He has graciously made Covenants between Himself and the sinner, in order that His grace can be displayed. The Old Testament Covenant of grace was rejected by Israel, and so He formed a more Gracious Covenant then the one before.
Covenants are created by God not man. And since the fall they have all been of Grace. Anyone that argues against God Grace knows nothing about Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 10/29/10


If any of these, it seems as if God has given some people an advantage.
(Which, as I understand it is one basis for your objection to Calvinism.)
---Donna66 on 10/28/10

What advantage does Calvinism give? That God picked certain people and gave them the Holy Spirit first so that they could believe..that advantage? That's not an advantage, but a LIE!!

Therefore the advantage you suggest is leading people to HELL... doesn't look like an advantage to me at all, but a disadvantage!

Salvation is based on TRUTH, not lies.

Only ONE TRUE Gospel can save. ALL other Gospels are accursed.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


"How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge." - Proverbs 1:22

"The tongue of the righteous is choice silver, The heart of the wicked is worth little. The lips of the righteous feed many, But fools die for lack of wisdom. The blessing of the LORD makes one rich, And He adds no sorrow with it." - Proverbs 10:20-22

"The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, But the mouth of fools pours forth foolishness." - Proverbs 15:2
---christan on 10/28/10


There will always be some people wanting to be morman, calvanist, baptist, lutheran, catholic.ect. Im none of the above. I dont have that desire to be in a certain type Church.
All denominations have mostly good points and few questionable points. Some, I just dont understand. Lets all be at peace with one another and at least try to understand.
---duane on 10/28/10


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AS TO THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION: Through the Everlasting Covenant promised to Abraham the promise of the Spirit is given. This same spirit found in Hebrews 13:20-21 and Romans 8-11-13 the one that QUICKENS to life is through this covenant alone is the Spirit promised given AFTER you believe. All other bogus covenants promising a spirit before is a LIE!!.

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


Acts 3:25,26 is a big ouch to Calvinist beliefs.

But then again its not like the words "every one" and "all" havent been twisted in the past so that these people can feel they are mored loved by God then their neighbor. And they claim we are the proud ones.

It amazing the scripture that God brings to mind just when we need it the most.
---JackB on 10/28/10


Ginger ... Thanks for your thanks on the other blog. In fact, I would welcome you to this very longstanding discussion.

I think I am the longest standing of those who query this idea that God shooses those whom He will save, and thus leave to damnation those whom he decides He will not even allow the opportunity of repenting and being saved.

The response has mainly been that when I doubt that God is a dictator, and suggest that He is great enough to allow FreeWill, I am denying His Sovereignty.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/28/10


The Everlasting Covenant is a Covenant made between God the Word and the Holy Spirit made before the foundation of the world, revelaed in Genesis 3:15 and revealed again to Abraham. God made a Promise to ABRAHAM Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

God promised salvation through the Everlasting Covenant to ALL the kindreds of the earth.

MarkV's covenant of grace is a man made covenant "Calvinism", promising salvation to only a select secret society not found in scripture!

you will NEVER see Calvin's Covenant of GRACE found anywhere.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


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christian, where does scripture mention any Covenant of Grace.

Salvation was promised in the Everlasting Covenant, and that covenant and promises are clearly stated in scripture in many places.

We're saved by Grace, Christ's work upon the cross, not a Covenant of Grace.

Covenants don't save you...Jesus Saves!!! A covenant is based upon God's PROMISES.
God promised through the Everlasting Covenant a Messiah...who will SAVE.

AND Jesus was not raised from the dead through a Covenant of Grace..Hebrews 13:20-21, but the Everlasting Covenant, that markV scoffed at and I guess you too!

OUR salvation is promised through the Everlasting Covenant clearly established in scripture.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


No man has been given an advantage over another. God has given to every man the measure of faith. That faith is used to believe the gospel unto saving faith. Jesus is the light that lights every man who comes into the world. The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and He has given the conscience and the creation as witness to Him. Those who do not consider such knowledge worthy to retain descend into more ungodliness, SUPPRESSING the TRUTH in that unrighteousness. These are scoffers who are WILLINGLY ignorant (choose to ignore the revelation given along with the conviction of the Holy Spirit to their unbelief in Christ). Willingly ignorant denotes that man's will is in operation.
---Linda on 10/28/10


My goodness no Covenant of Grace Kathr says. It is called a Covenant of Grace because it is an agreement between God and a sinner in which God promises salvation through faith to the sinner. The Old Testament speaks of several covenants, a Pre-flood Noahic covenant Gen. 6:18, a post-flood Noahic covenant Gen. 9:8-17, an Abrahamic Covenant Gen. 15:8,18, 17:6-8, a Mosaic covenant Exodus 6:6-8, a Davidic covenant Ps. 89:3,4 26-37, and a new covenant Jer. 31d:31-34. All of them were covenants of God grace towards sinners. If they are not of grace, then no one has salvation. For by works no one can be save.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10


No such thing as the Covenant of Grace? Hmmm... let's see what the Scripture says.

Ephesians 2:5 - "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)"

Ephesians 2:8,9 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

One wonders what Paul was teaching about salvation.
---christan on 10/28/10


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2 Cor 11:3,4 - "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

2 Cor 11:13-15 - "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works."
---christan on 10/28/10


kathr-- Why do YOU think some people recieve the Gospel while others reject it. What makes the difference? Intellect? "spiritual sensitivity"? Past life experiences? Inborn characteristics?

If any of these, it seems as if God has given some people an advantage.
(Which, as I understand it is one basis for your objection to Calvinism.)
---Donna66 on 10/28/10


Eloy, you are a little confuse as to the question, you said,
There is no new birth before a person is born, one must be born first before one can be born-again."
I do not believe anyone said that. You have to be born once physically to be born again spiritually. You said
All who are born phisically, are dead in sin. They need to be born of the Spirit. God the Spirit brings them to life. If a person confesses Christ as His Savior it is only because his heart has already been changed. If he repents of his sins, it is only because the Holy Spirit has convicted his heart. If He believes by faith it is because God gave him that faith to believe. It's what God does. He is helpless without God.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10


kathr-- Why do YOU think some people recieve the Gospel while others reject it. What makes the difference? Intellect? "spiritual sensitivity"? Past life experiences? Inborn characteristics?

If any of these, it seems as if God has given some people an advantage.
(Which, as I understand it, is one basis for your objection to Calvinism.)
---Donna66 on 10/28/10


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Kathr, if it is the power of God unto salvation, then why do you say it is the power of man unto salvation? If God gives you the light, which you never had before, how can you pretend to preach that it was man who came into the light? If It is the power of God unto salvation how can you say man walk up to God on his own free will and chose Christ? All your talk is just religious talk that has no meaning at all. You strip God of His Omnipotence, and strip Him of His forknowledge, claiming He does not know who will come to Christ. You deny the Power of God unto salvation. You twist Scripture meaning to insert your own meaning. To that I say, Repent and turn towards God, so that your sins can be forgiven.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10


duane, I too believe and know what you say is true, however duane never said one is born again first in order to be saved.

MarkV, i don't believe any true born again believer will disagree with duane, but agreeing with duane doesn't mean one agrees with Calvinism, and i know duane is not a calvinist.

CHANGE absolutely. Yet calvin did not change. Calvin remained a murderer, and continued to murder and burn at the stake forcing a doctrine on people, just as Calvinists believe God forced Himself on you!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


You must pesonally ask for it in prayer to Jesus, for the Lord God Jesus alone is the Author and the Fount of his new life, which he is prepared to give to whomsoever will come to him. There is no new birth before a person is born, one must be born first before one can be born-again.
---Eloy on 10/28/10


es MarkV you do deny the POWER of God unto Salvation. SCRIPTURE tells us the preaching of the GOSPEL IS the POWER of God unto salvation.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

NO WHERE does Paul ever teach it to the ELECT ONLY!! That is the Perverted Covenant of Grace that does not exist except in these false teachers minds!!

However the Gospel belonging to the EVERLASTING COVENANT is to ALL families of the earth!!!!

KNOW your Covenants...
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


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christian, again you are under some delusion there is a COVENANT OF GRACE. There is no such Covenant. YOUR Covenant of Grace is a perverted covenant.

Again friends the Covenant is called the Everlasting Covenant, that In ISAAC shall thy seed be called. First promised in Genesis 3:15, further revealed to Abraham, not to be confused with the OLD Covenant given by Moses via Jacob to Israel. Romans 4 clearly state the PROMISE given to Abraham came long before the Mosaec Covenant and did not disannul the EVERLASTING Covenant given to Abraham. Jacob's line brought forth the messiah of which God Chose Jacob over Esau because Esau married a Canaanite, that would have contradicted Genesis 3:15.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10


Ginger, I want you to think for a minute if you can without bias. You said
"You deny Christ's power,He says "anyone and whosoever" to many times for your view to be right,"
Lets look at the word "whosoever." Does the word indicate that people have to make a choice? No. It indicates that "whosoever" believes has eternal life. And "whoever" does not believe will be condemned. They made the choice already.
Mark 16:16. It does not mean that people have a choice but that only those who do believe have eternal life, and whosoever doesn't will be condemned.
You said:
"you deny Christ's power"
How does that statement make me deny Christ power?
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10


After giving Kathr my response that what she said is not in those passages she gave, she again responds with more insults towards Calvin. Why? first, because the Truth that Calvin taught from Scripture she rejects. Second, because she is wrong and has no answers. Why? Because she made it all up. Many times she gives Scripture and puts other meanings to those passages. Why? for the purpose of deceiving others who do not know Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10


Duane, thank you brother for the explanation you gave. So very true, now if only others believe it. Not many will. They are fighting for their rights. What they are implying is that none of what you say can happen unless man gives God permission. I do not even know why they call Him God. Peace brother.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10


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Thank you all for your answers.
Trey, the Spirit does not decide for us. The Spirit draws us, then we decide whether to follow or not. Remember God does not force salvation on anyone.

To Markv and Christan:

You deny Christ's power,He says "anyone and whosoever" to many times for your view to be right, you deny God giving us the choice after he comes to us, Paul tells several times that any man can be in Christ.
In fact do a Bible search on the words "IN CHRIST" you will find that what you believe is entirely FALSE.
Holy Spirit comes in after repent and then we are born again of the Spirit..not before.
---ginger on 10/28/10


When you are born again, you WILL know it. All things will look different, you will think different. The old ways of thought and understanding, you will remember no more.
HE will take away the old man(confusion) and give you the new man. (truth and understanding.)Truely a miracle you will never forget.
AGAIN, When HIS Spirit comes to dwell within, all things will change. There will be no questions with being born again. Its a fact.
---duane on 10/28/10


Good question Ginger.
The new birth, or being born again, occurs at the time God wills it. John the Baptist for example was "born again" before he was physically born.
Lu1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb, and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

The thief on the cross was "born again" after he was born by his mother. At one point we see him reviling Christ (Matt 27:44) and then later he rebukes the other criminal for the same behavior (Luke 23:24). His inner man had been born again. He was now a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Last of all, the Spirit decides when one is born again - John 3:8.
---trey on 10/27/10


I guess you cant expect someone to understand something spiritual if they cant even read a sentence properly

Theres a reason for the order! You cant change the order around to make it fit your doctrine.

Read the verse for what it says, Christan.

as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God....

It does not say...

to those whom he gave the power to become the sons of God, those received him

The birth that occurs AFTER accepting Jesus Christ is the WILL of God, not the will of man.

Its just as Kathr explained earlier. The new person is not born again/raised to life until the old one has died with Christ.
---JackB on 10/27/10


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John 3:3-8. One must be born of the Holy Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God just as Jesus Christ was born of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20 & Luke 1:35.

To be born of the Holy Spirit we must follow only the words of Jesus. John 7:16-19 We must know the difference between our Messiah's voice and the voice of deceivers. John 5:43. We must keep the 10 commandments as Jesus kept them and He expects us to do likewise. John 15:10. Learning and abiding in the truth justifies us and then we are sanctified and born of the truth. No lie in our mouths. John 17:17.
---barb on 10/27/10


"How does one become born of the Spirit by God?

Answer: John 1:12,13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

This Almighty work of God is not from within man but from without. And unless the man is in the Covenant of Grace as promised by God the Father to His Son, he will never be born of the Spirit of God.

"Is it before you are born flesh or after?"

Answer: 1 Cor 15:46, "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual."
---christan on 10/27/10


ginger, I know your frustration.

I honestly believe that Calvinism plays a very important role in end times just as Mormonism, JW's, etc.

God said in the OT, I put before you TRUTH and Lie, to TEST you. Well, the truth is, we are victorious over these lies, we are overcomers. We OVERCOME false teachers too! Look at the letters in Rev...about false teachers/overcomers!

Romans 5 tells us that in Adam ALL Died. One man's sin passed on to ALL. Yet they are so ignorant not to see ONE MAN'S OBEDIENCE opened the door to ALL that are in ADAM 1 unto salvation. Not just a secret select few. Yet we know not all will believe so simple the plan of salvation! God made salvation SIMPLE. BELIEVE! The faith of a CHILD.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10


All you can do is pray for them.
---JackB on 10/27/10


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Here is another example of twisting Scripture and meaning, quoted by kathr amened by Ginger,

" Hebrews 13:20-21 AND Romans 8:11-13. It's the NEW MAN, New creature that is Born anew"

The new creature is born anew: what? All that is found in Hebrews 13:20-21 and Romans 8:11-13? I could not find such words. That is how most answers are given. Again, giving new meanings to Scripture and putting passages that say no such thing. Sounds great, but all false.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/10


Amen, Kath!
I know what you say is very true according to God's word.
But they are teaching another way! That is blasphemy and very sad.
How do we combat this? everytime scripture is given to refute it, it is argued with and twisted to make it seem like what you and I and many others believe AND what Jesus said....is false!
---ginger on 10/27/10


ginger, One is Born of the Spirit as we are RAISED up and quickened TOGETHER WITH CHRIST..to be made alive AKA Born Again.

These false teachers do not realize that this life comes out of DEATH. So, one must first be crucified with Christ AND THEN be raised up by the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. Hebrews 13:20-21 AND Romans 8:11-13. It's the NEW MAN, New creature that is Born anew. God does NOT revive our old adam, but adam 1 is crucified with Christ. THEREFORE it is impossible for one to be given NEW LIFE first. New Life is the GIFT of Eternal life. Eternal life IS the very life of the Risen Christ in you..the NEW CREATURE, not old one.

You don't put new wine in OLD wine skins, !!! Is very clear!
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10


I didn't mean to ask the question as an idiot would and I apologize for that.
Another poster on here stated that we must be born of the Spirit of God first before we can even be saved by Christ.

I know and obviously so do you (other posters) that what the other blogger said is false.
So, why is this teaching becoming so prevalent?
These people really believe they were chosen by God to be saved by Christ before the beginning of the world. They believe Christ only died for them and no one elses sin.
It is just amazing to me that these blasphemies are coming out. None of what they believe is biblical.
---ginger on 10/27/10


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Romans 10:9-10 and 1 John 1:9 talk about how to become born of the Spirit of God.
---Leslie on 10/26/10


To be born of the Spirit you must first encounter that spirit, you have to shut down all the stuff of life to get there, if your heart and mind are distracted you'll never come into God's presence or be able to focus on Christ fully as you should.

Awaken your own spirit and stir it up through self denial. I would go as far as not eating if need be, shut off the idiot box, ringer, separate yourself from the world and open up the gospels and stay there. If you still miss connecting with Christ spiritually GO CAMPING...when you come to know Jesus so well as to know his heart you've begun to know him spiritually. Confess sin, ask forgiveness and that you be given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Ask in absolute faith -believing or don't bother.
---peter on 10/26/10


It is AFTER you are born of the flesh.

The first time you are born, you are born of the flesh, you come out of your mother's womb as flesh and blood.

The second time you are born, you are born of the Spirit of God. Your spirit comes alive unto God and thus you are born again.

Does that help?
---Donna5535 on 10/26/10


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