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Explain Revelation 12:1-2

Who do you believe Revelation 12:1-2 is talking about?

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 ---ginger on 10/27/10
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Actually Israel can make this claim because "She" gave birth to Mary.

---ginger on 11/2/10

Book,chapter and verse where it says Israel gave birth to Mary.

I can gave you a scripture vesre that says Mary gave birth to Jesus and refer it back to Rev 12:5...
---Ruben on 11/3/10


Cluny, I care not if you dis the truth, for the truth stands.
---Eloy on 11/3/10


\\You are only seeing with your flesh and not the Spirit.
Paul speaks of your kind in 1 Corinthians.\\

I was thinking the same thing about you, ginger.

\\You need to read the Bible for yourself instead of cherry picking and listening to the opinions of men.\\

Follow your own advice.

BTW--I noticed you called Mary a sinner. The Bible says she was greeted from heaven as "full of grace". Who is right: you or the Bible?
---Cluny on 11/3/10


\\I believe the place that remnants of Israel nation will escape to is Petra and ancient city built out of stone, about 150 miles south of Jerusalem.\\

Petra is located in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which is officially a mahometan state.

You really think they would allow Jews to flee there for protection?

Furthermore, it's not big enough to accommodate that many people.

Finally this notion wasn't even heard of before the 1920's, it originated with an American named Blackstone.

If you know when a doctrine was first proposed, and by whom, it's probably false.
---Cluny on 11/3/10


Ruben, I guess you have never read the Old Testament?

YES Israel DID. Without Israel, there would be NO Mary, and NO Jesus. SO YES, Israel did give birth to the Messiah. You are arguing because this proves Mary was born into sin. She was a sinner just like you and I until Christ came.
Your carnality causes you to NOT see that Christ is prophecied to be born through Israel all throughout the Old Testament.

You are only seeing with your flesh and not the Spirit.
Paul speaks of your kind in 1 Corinthians.
You need to read the Bible for yourself instead of cherry picking and listening to the opinions of men.
---ginger on 11/3/10




\\for it is recorded that Jesus was persecuted and slain, but the woman Mary was not even one of Jesus' followers,\\

Apparently Acts 1:14 is not in your Bible: "Then all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and MARY THE MOTHER OF JESUS...."

\\ nor is there any scripture documenting any persecution she endured for being a disciple of Christ because she did not follow him.
---Eloy on 11/2/10\\

Nor are there any scriptures mentioning such persecution for most of the Apostles, but there are the historical traditions elsewhere, just as there are those slanders against the Virgin I've already mentioned.

Wrong again, Eloy.
---Cluny on 11/2/10


Ruben, Because Jesus, Mary's Creator, was himself crucified does not mean that the creature Mary likewise was also crucified: for it is recorded that Jesus was persecuted and slain, but the woman Mary was not even one of Jesus' followers, nor is there any scripture documenting any persecution she endured for being a disciple of Christ because she did not follow him.
---Eloy on 11/2/10


The thing is Ruben, Mary was not persecuted or have to flee into the wilderness.

Yes, she felt the pain a mother feels when one of her children is hurt. Especially her.
She watched the child that grew inside her be persecuted and cursed and hung on a tree.

But she does not have 12 stars on her head.
The church and Israel DO. Thats the key.12.
Mary is significant because she was one of the 12 stars. The one to give birth to the Messiah. God's plan from the beginning to redeem man.
---ginger on 11/2/10

Neither the Church or Israel can claim to give Birth to Jesus himself, so it all evens out!
---Ruben on 11/2/10


I believe it is speaking of the nation Israel and this will take place as the Antichrist strongly persecutes the Jews. I believe the place that remnants of Israel nation will escape to is Petra and ancient city built out of stone, about 150 miles south of Jerusalem.
---mima on 11/2/10


Neither Israel or the Church can make this claim! So the Woman can be all three as already noted....
---Ruben on 11/2/10


Actually Israel can make this claim because "She" gave birth to Mary.

Again, you have to look at the context these verses are written in.
Israel is constantly refered to in the OT as a woman.
Like I said before the 12 stars is the key here Ruben.

Please note, I am not demeaning Mary at all. Just interpretations of certain scripture.
---ginger on 11/2/10




\\The thing is Ruben, Mary was not persecuted or have to flee into the wilderness.\\

"Go, and take the young child AND HIS MOTHER...." Matthew 2:13.

The persecution of the Virgin continues in the Jewish Talmud with horrible statements against her that I will not defile myself by repeating.
---Cluny on 11/2/10


The woman is Israel and the Church. The church was persectued and had to flee into the wilderness not Mary.
---Samuel on 11/2/10


And the Woman can also mean Mary Because:"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. "

Neither Israel or the Church can make this claim! So the Woman can be all three as already noted....
---Ruben on 11/2/10


The thing is Ruben, Mary was not persecuted or have to flee into the wilderness.

Yes, she felt the pain a mother feels when one of her children is hurt. Especially her.
She watched the child that grew inside her be persecuted and cursed and hung on a tree.

But she does not have 12 stars on her head.
The church and Israel DO. Thats the key.12.
Mary is significant because she was one of the 12 stars. The one to give birth to the Messiah. God's plan from the beginning to redeem man.
I am glad you know how to discuss things though. Unlike some who are snide because they can't have a normal conversation.
---ginger on 11/2/10


The woman is Israel and the Church. The church was persectued and had to flee into the wilderness not Mary.
---Samuel on 11/2/10


Eloy* We know that the woman is not the physical person Mary, Holy Scriptures do not detail that Mary was persecuted,

Someone can make a case of Mary also being persecuted in a sense, for example:

Luke 2:35 "And a sword will pierce your own soul too.

John 19:25 "Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother"


Eloy*The woman represents the church, and she gave birth to Jesus.

But Mary did give birth to the Messiah "But the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High " Luke 1:32
---Ruben on 11/2/10


Ginger, A-men. Note how Cluny continually disses the truth that we Christians post, anyone who continually disses Christians and wrests the scriptures is ungodly and anti-, and is not pro-Christ.
---Eloy on 11/2/10


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\\Yes Cluny, I am talking about God's plan! The plan from the beginning to use Israel to bring forth the Messiah, JESUS.\\

If you want to think that, and it makes you feel better, you just go right ahead.
---Cluny on 11/2/10


I am not trying to claim any kind of superiority over anyone. This is about God says to us through his word.
Yes Cluny, I am talking about God's plan! The plan from the beginning to use Israel to bring forth the Messiah, JESUS.

Israel did bring forth the Christ. Read the old testament. It was God's plan from the beginning.
Mary is from one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Christ did not come from a gentile woman or leniage. Why else was it so important to know Christ's background. You place so much on Mary that you ignore God's plan to bring the Messiah to us through Israel. It was Mary's blood line that was important.
You are ignoring the forest because of the trees.
---ginger on 11/2/10


\\Only a carnal Christian would say Mary did it by herself and take the glory away from God.\\

And you're trying to take the glory away from God first by saying that ISRAEL brought for Christ.

Your puerile attempt to claim spiritual and moral superiority isn't working, ginger.

**Cluny, I care not if you disagree with the truth**

I don't disagree with the truth. I agree with it.

Therefore, I disagree with you, Eloy, because you have proven with your inaccurate etymologies and false translations that you cannot be trusted.
---Cluny on 11/2/10


//And how many Jewish women and men worked on her conception and pregnancy with her?//

Thank for cutting my post in half and for showing your true colors.
Only a carnal Christian would say Mary did it by herself and take the glory away from God. Why should I follow after someone who takes glory away from God by saying such a blasphemous thing?
She did nothing at all except obey God(which made her a blessed woman) and be the vesel to carry the Messiah.
God did all of it.
After thought: someone needs to study their bible(The REAL word of God) and find the real truth instead of listening to the doctrines of men built upon paganism.

Amen Eloy, loved that last post brother!
---ginger on 11/2/10


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\\Actually only one woman did that--hardly more than a child herself.-Cluny on 11/1/10
1st Mary didn't do it by herself.\\

And how many Jewish women and men worked on her conception and pregnancy with her?

\\I don't follow religion that twists the word of God to make it seem right.\\

That's exactly what you do.
---Cluny on 11/1/10


Cluny, I care not if you disagree with the truth. For the church bears Christ and ministers the Word, and the church was persecuted, not the woman Mary that he had created. Jesus is the Creator long long before he created the creature Mary in order to put on flesh.
---Eloy on 11/1/10


Actually only one woman did that--hardly more than a child herself.-Cluny on 11/1/10
1st Mary didn't do it by herself. God did it through her. Lets give God the Glory shall we. Mary wouldn't have come to be without Israel. Lets not forget God's plan and how he implemented it. Mary doesn't have 12 stars she came from the 12 stars.
Igi, I'm not defensive and I didn't insult you.
I'm simply stating a fact.
I check everything that's said concerning Christ to the word of God as we are commanded by God. Do you? I don't follow religion that twists the word of God to make it seem right.
---ginger on 11/1/10


\\Actually a real spirit filled Christian wouldn't have insulted me like you JUST did. Please consider "bridling the tongue" before you do that again.:-)
---ginger on 11/1/10
\\

If you were a real Spirit-filled Christian, ginger, you would accept Godly admonition and sound doctrine when it was presented to you, as Ignatius and I have done.

See? Two can play your silly game of claiming the moral high ground.
---Cluny on 11/1/10


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ginger-

You are very defensive. I never said you was not Spirit Filled, but you have insulted me, claiming I am blind to my so called religion, have no English skills, etc. You have implied that I do not have a personal releationship with God. You have bear false witness and in need of repentance (and that is not a insult). I said I am Eastern Orthodox (Spirit Filled) Christian, and it hit one of your nerves.

I gave you my opinions on Revelation 12:1-2, but because I do not agree with your ideology (which you claim is God's teaching), you are now passing insults. Bill have given a different interpretation. Why haven't you attack him?

Again, you just want to pick a fight, so I am going to ignore Satan.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/1/10


ginger, you were the one who said that what you think is what God thinks.

The Bible says that God doesn't even think the same way you do. Isaiah 55:8-9

Who's right: you or the Bible?
---Cluny on 11/1/10


In other words, ginger, you are confusing yourself with God.{FALSE}

And it's a symptom of the same deep-seated spiritual problem.
---Cluny on 11/1/10 POINT THAT FINGER AT YOURSELF
Another one with English reading problems.
I am not confusing myself with God.
I am not the one with the spiritual problem.
You think that you are cute with your little insults and your irony. When you are not. It only reveals the fact that God does not lead your life. Since we can see that from your fruit, which stinks and is rotten. Who actually has the spiritual problem? Certainly not me.
God comes first in my life not the other around.
---ginger on 11/1/10


\\Eloy, I agree with most of your last post but the church did not give birth to Jesus. Physical Israel did.\\

Actually only one woman did that--hardly more than a child herself.
---Cluny on 11/1/10


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-Cluny on 10/31/10
And I don't see what you believe in the Scriptures, either, Ginger.//
A quick re-read on how Israel came to be (12 tribes=12 stars) will clear it up for you(You'll see where I got it from) The prophecies of the Messiah. The OT is full of them.

//BTW--I never said I believed it was Mary. I was just explaining why some people do.// I know & Thank you.

//May of the figures in Revelation have more than one meaning.//
Thats very true. But this one doesn't represent 1 person.
Plus Israel has always been referred to as "woman", God's "bride". Israel gave birth to Christ. The surrounding passages(context) speak volumes that its not Mary any kind of way.
---ginger on 11/1/10


\\This is FALSE! It is not what I see fit, it is what God sees fit.\\

In other words, ginger, you are confusing yourself with God.

This is the same mistake made by others here I could name, but won't.

And it's a symptom of the same deep-seated spiritual problem.
---Cluny on 11/1/10


Eloy, I agree with most of your last post but the church did not give birth to Jesus. Physical Israel did. They were also persecuted- see entire OT for that story. There are 12 tribes of Israel too.
So I agree that it could be what you are saying but, I don't agree that the church gave birth to Christ. The Bible says the Church is his body with him as the head.
I really appreciate your answers! Thank you!
---ginger on 11/1/10


In IC.XC.-Ignatius on 11/1/10

//Exactly, you interpret Scriptures based on your ideology (what you see fit).//
This is FALSE! It is not what I see fit, it is what God sees fit. If you understood proper English you would not have said this.

//P.S, I am a Eastern Orthodox (Spirit Filled) Christian (not part of a dead religion).//
Really, and I'm not? Just because I am not orthodox like you? I'm not part of any religion. I'm part of the Body of Christ which has no religion. Religion is what the Pharisees practiced, the ones who crucified Christ.

Actually a real spirit filled Christian wouldn't have insulted me like you JUST did. Please consider "bridling the tongue" before you do that again.:-)
---ginger on 11/1/10


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We know that the woman is not the physical person Mary, because the passage goes on to detail that the woman was persecuted, and the Holy Scriptures do not detail that Mary was persecuted, but instead the church was persecuted. The woman represents the church, and she gave birth to Jesus. The Christian church comprised of Christians is the body of Christ, the true Israel, and the twelve stars are the twelve Apostles of Christ whom represent the twelve tribes of Israel, which comprises the true church of God. And of course the dragon is the antiChrist and Satan, whom hates the woman which is the Church, and hates Christ the Creator of all, and hates the twelve disciples and all Christians which is the remannt of her seed.
---Eloy on 10/31/10


Ignatius said both:
"Ginger, how many times do I have to tell you that I am not part of any religion? You don't seem to care. So why should I care what you tell me?"
and:
"I have always said I am a Eastern Orthodox Christian"

There does seem a conflict there!
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/1/10


ginger-

One poster wrote it was the Church, and if you have read various commentaries, you will know that there are various interpretations. TheSeg said we are all just guessing.

"accept false teaching....than see what the Word of God has to say."

Revelation 13:1-2 gives no interpretations. And I have told you before that my Orthodox Study Bible said it could be a reference to Israel. A symbol can have multiple interpretations, non incorrect. Did you know that?

"I make what I believe fit the word of God."

Exactly, you interpret Scriptures based on your ideology (what you see fit).

P.S, I am a Eastern Orthodox (Spirit Filled) Christian (not part of a dead religion).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/1/10


Scriptures does not say Revelation 12:1-2 is a reference to either Isreal, the Church, the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit (I have personally met some who believe this) or whatever. These are all interpretations (or guesses, as TheSeg, wiser than I, wrote). Some Church Fathers believed it was Israel, the Church, and others saw a reference to the Theotokos (and she is a perfect example of both).

In reality, none of these interpretations are incorrect, as a symbol can have multiple interpretations (the beauty of symbology). Ginger just want to pick a fight.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/1/10


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Well, Igi, I was not refering to that I don't care attitude you were talking about. That kind of attitude is not from Christ.

You actually did bear false witness on 10/31. You said that you were not affiliated with any religion.

you have been shown by others more wiser than I that in fact what you believe to be Mary is really Israel. Scripture witnesses scripture and the ones given by others here tells us that it is not Mary but in fact Israel...12 stars points to that. Yet you would rather accept false teaching due to plain ignorance of your religion than see what the Word of God has to say.
You make the word of God fit what you believe.
I make what I believe fit the word of God.
---ginger on 10/31/10


\\"I thank you and Cluny for your answers but from what I see in scripture the orthodox and rcc are wrong. It is not Mary." (ginger)\\

And I don't see what you believe in the Scriptures, either, Ginger.

BTW--I never said I believed it was Mary. I was just explaining why some people do.

May of the figures in Revelation have more than one meaning.
---Cluny on 10/31/10


Ginger,

1) I have never bear false witness. I have always said I am a Eastern Orthodox Christian.

2) It has been shown that we Eastern Orthodox Christians profess, which is what Christians have always believe, contradicts what you personally believe and does not line up with your own interpretations of Scriptures. So yes, it has been found that what we believe is not keeping with your private opinions and interpretations of what Christ' taught.

3) Yes, we should have a relationship with God, but most here have this "this is between me and God. Forget all of you!" type of attitude. That is what I am referring to. Please read 1 Cor 12:12-27.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/31/10


Ignatius. Please don't bear false witness. You told us all you were Eastern orthodox. And you follow THEIR teachings applying what they say is true. The Bible is not open to just their interpretations.
And it has been found that most of what they RCC and Ortho believe is not in keeping with what Jesus taught. Or we would not have had the reformation in the first place.
Excuse me But God expects to have an individual relationship with every person in the Body of Christ. This is because each of us has a purpose in the Body that is just for us. No 2 of us are alike. God gives each our own purpose to serve him.
---ginger on 10/31/10


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"how many times do I have to tell you that I am not part of any religion?"

Ginger, how many times do I have to tell you that I am not part of any religion? You don't seem to care. So why should I care what you tell me?

"God is not about religion he is about a personal relationship."

Yes, and the releationship isn't one on one, but with all the members of the Church.

"That scripture represents Israel and it is out of Israel that Jesus was born."

Again, this is is open for various interpretations (a symbol can have multiple meanings). All can held to pious opinions in this matter. This hasn't been a issue for the first 1,000 years of Church History. Why change now?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/31/10


Right before that is:
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Here I go, and please forgive me.
//Faith are filled with mysteries that one will never fully understand.//

Ever since I was a child, I have heard things like this.
Somehow I still just cant believe that some dont know all things.
Know, I have not said, I do!

But I can say if this is what you believe!
Then you are saying my faith has limits!
Arent you saying this?

Then some of the things God has say, are lies!
Mat 11:27, 19:26, 21:21-2
Joh 14:26

We can disagree!
---TheSeg on 10/30/10


the three things mentioned arent arguable ,all are a true fact.
---tom2 on 10/30/10


"Said the one who believe her personal interpretations of Scriptures are the correct ones (trapped in her own religion)."

Ignatius, how many times do I have to tell you that I am not part of any religion?

God is not about religion he is about a personal relationship.

No one is arguing at all (I believe). I don't see anyone who is hostile to anyone else. I believe we are reasoning together to find the truth.
That scripture represents Israel and it is out of Israel that Jesus was born.
By the way, I said nothing of dogmas. Dogmas are things made up without proper support from scripture and they are things only seen by our flesh man.
---ginger on 10/30/10


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I believe that Revelation 12:1-2 is talking about the nation of Israel being exalted to a high position. The Woman is the Nation and the pregnancy is the birth of the 144000 Jewish children (born again). I believe this takes place right before the coming of the King and the Kingdom age. After all John was told to write the things which were,(chapter one) and which are, (chapters 2 & 3 and what shall be here after (4-22). In chapter four begins the here after, the time of Jacob's trouble and he shall be saved out of it.
---Bill on 10/30/10


This is but a small piece of a verry large prophecy.
The Woman of Rev. 12:1 Is Gods Church, old and new testament,
Meny places in Scripture you see the church discribed as a woman
See Isa.54:5,6 and 2 cor. 11:2 as 2 of them
The sun is Righteousness...see Mal 4:2
The moon represents the ceremonial laws that were just a reflection of things to come
The crown is the crown of victory ( over sin ? )
The 12 stars ...The 12 tribes of Isreal /12 apostles
The child is of corse our Savior Jesus Christ
---dowanor on 10/30/10


"It is important that we understand these things because how would we apply scripture to our lives if we don't understand it?" (ginger)

This is true. However, there is difference between one arguing over dogmas of the Christian Faith (such as the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the Incarnation of the Son of God, etc) and arguing over meaningless subjects (this being one of them). There is room for one to hold pious opinions in the Apostolic/Orthodox Faith, as long as they do not contradict Holy Tradition (i.e., Holy Scriptures, etc). We can agree to disagree.

Holy Scriptures/Apostolic Faith are filled with mysteries that one will never fully understand (1 Cor 13:12).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/29/10


The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel. Genesis and Joseph's dream confirm this. The Woman is Israel. The sun and moon represent Jacob and Rachael.

STARS are always affiliated with Israel. The Star of David for example.


Isaiah 66:7-8
7Before she travailed, she brought forth, before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

This is concerning the time Israel the Nation will be reborn, and satan/anti-christ will try to destroy...during the great tribulation!!
---kathr4453 on 10/29/10


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Theotokos, Mary, the mother of Jesus, Mother of God
Israel, True Israel
Church
Sarah

Is that it?
Is there no one else?
Looks to me, like a lot of good guesses!
Keep up the good work!
May God bless you all
---TheSeg on 10/29/10


". But you are to blind to your religion to realize its fallacies in some scripture." (ginger)

Said the one who believe her personal interpretations of Scriptures are the correct ones (trapped in her own religion).

Like I said, many in Orthodoxy DO NOT believe it is the Theotokos (it is not a dogma of Orthodoxy) so I am not trap in any religion, but it is seem that you are. If it make you feel better, my Orthodox Study Bible said that it very possible that Rev 12:1-3 is a reference to The True Israel, the Church. This doesn't affect my walk with Christ. Revelation is a highly symbolic book, and it is filled with mysteries.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/29/10


Thank you Tom2, I appreciate the spiritual washing brother.

Ignatius, I know you sem to think that it is not important that we discuss these things but it is. We are told to study and show ourselves approved rightly diving God's word so we can apply it for our lives. scripture mean all scripture.

It is important that we understand these things because how would we apply scripture to our lives if we don't understand it?

This scripture is a recount of the nations of Israel birthing the messiah through Mary.
The actual woman with the crowns is Sarah birthing Israel, the 12 and the 12 birthing the Messiah.
It was God's plan being revealed to us to save. That is very important for us to understand.
---ginger on 10/29/10


Ruben, you still are not understanding me.
Mary did not have 12 stars. Only Sarah did.
Like I said you put the cart before the horse.
The 12 had to become before Jesus could be born through Mary. So that prophecy is not directly about her.
In Truth, Israel begat Jesus through Mary. Mary was one of the 12 stars. NOT the woman herself.

--ginger on 10/29/10

Ginger,

Yes Mary did not have 12 stars so, But Mary did give birth to Jesus and Rev 12:5 states She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. " This is Jesus, so Mary can be the woman in Rev 12 as well. That's all I am saying don't leave her out. No other Woman give birth to Jesus.
---Ruben on 10/29/10


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ginger,take comfort in our lord.interpretation of scripture has always been a point which causes discension,but the truth is it really only stirs the emotions. what we need to believe is jesus,he is the truth,who he is ,what he did,what he offers,this is the only truth that really matters.But alas even he was and is misinterpreted by the world,or better said mis represented.
---tom2 on 10/29/10


Ruben, you still are not understanding me.
Mary did not have 12 stars. Only Sarah did.
Like I said you put the cart before the horse.
The 12 had to become before Jesus could be born through Mary. So that prophecy is not directly about her.
In Truth, Israel begat Jesus through Mary. Mary was one of the 12 stars. NOT the woman herself.

Ignatius, I am not arguing but it just gets on my nerves that scripture is misinterpreted like that. It seems again that you and Ruben give Mary too much credit. She did not birth a nation. Sarah birthed The nationsand they birthed Mary and through her the messiah was born. But you are to blind to your religion to realize its fallacies in some scripture.
---ginger on 10/29/10


again I will say ,revelation was written about 90 AD the church was already in existance ,jesus had been born ,and died ,and returned to heaven. The writing was written to and for the church about furture events that nust take place, not the past.
---tom2 on 10/28/10


"I thank you and Cluny for your answers but from what I see in scripture the orthodox and rcc are wrong. It is not Mary." (ginger)

In any case, whether one believe that Revelation 12:1-2 is a reference to the Virgin Mary or the True Israel, the Church (or both) matters not, as this doesn't reflect nor contradict any establish Christian dogmas.

I find it amusing that people here are fighting over a topic that Scripture is silent upon, and in wish one is free to interpret the text the way it seem fit. Although, I will agree with Cluny. Many Eastern Fathers didn't interpret the women to be the Theotokos. And many within Orthodoxy do not either.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/28/10


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Ruben, Luke is a history of what happened while Christ was here. Revelation is the future. That was Sarah, mother of Israel herself. Christ is the son that the "woman" or tribes begat for our salvation through Mary a descendant.
Not the same.
---ginger on 10/28/10

Ginger,

Luke mention that Mary will give birth "to a son,...He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and Rev mention the same thing "She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."

Mary gave birth to Jesus and there was no other Women who did, how you do not get it is because of your bias of the Catholic Church.
---Ruben on 10/28/10


"a woman clothed with the sun" > wisdom of God full of His light

"the moon under her feet" > the moon rules the night (Genesis 1:16) > representing Satan ruling the dark world, but under the feet of God's all-managing wisdom

"garland of twelve stars" > Israel's twelve tribes ruled by the twelve apostles (Matthew 19:27-28)

This woman goes into the desert, then to be rescued from a flood. Christ's human mother, Mary, is not recorded to have done this. So, I consider the woman is wisdom, referred to in Proverbs as "she" (Proverbs 1:20), plus Christ is called "wisdom from God", in 1 Corinthians 1:30.
---Bill on 10/28/10


Ignatius,
I thank you and Cluny for your answers but from what I see in scripture the orthodox and rcc are wrong. It is not Mary.
Mary was not the mother of the 12 tribes of Israel, she is a descendant of the 12. That verse can only have one meaning Because there was only 1 woman who birthed the 12- Sarah.

Ruben, we are not talking about Luke.Luke is a history of what happened while Christ was here. Revelation is the future.
There is only one woman who was the mother of the 12 Israelite tribes. That was Sarah, mother of Israel herself. Christ is the son that the "woman" or tribes begat for our salvation through Mary a descendant.
Not the same.
---ginger on 10/28/10


Continue please...

Not to take away from Mary but the 12 tribes had to be born for Christ to be born through Mary.
We can't put the cart before the horse, fellas.
Sarah begat Israel, Israel the father of the 12 tribes, 1 of the 12 tribe begat Mary, Mary begat the messiah- Jesus Christ.

Which on of these was the 12 actually descnded from? Sarah, mother of Israel, literally.
I believe it can only be talking about Israel and how Christ, our messiah was born through them to die for the sins of the world and save us. Especially when you read those scriptures inside their context.
---ginger on 10/28/10


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Rev 12: 1-2 is speaking of God's True Church. Many times in scripture the Lord's bride,the church, is described as a woman. God established his church before Christ came to earth.
Ac7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Christ of course is the head of the church, and the one described in verse 5.

The dragon is of Satan, and is the world's largest cult responsible for the deaths of millions of God's saints down through the ages. The dragon at that time was aided by Constantine.
---trey on 10/27/10


"However, this is not really a life-changing matter either way." (Cluny)

My point exactly. It is not something we should be fighting over. To each it's own.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/27/10


I might add that many Eastern Christian writers and commentators have not believed that this woman is the Theotokos, as she cried out in pain of childbirth, and she was spared such.

However, this is not really a life-changing matter either way.
---Cluny on 10/27/10


"the things john wrote were about the furture,jesus was born some 90 years previous" (tom2)

And your point being? The Book of Revelation is highly pictorial and symbolic book, and it is not a extensive footprint on what will occur in the End-Times (many today have a erroneous understanding of this book). Besides, it is clear that Revelation 1-4 was not talking about the future.

My point is that Revelation 12:1-2 could be referencing the Virgin Mary , as believe by most Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and some Protestants. It is not a false doctrine. It is not even a dogma! One is free to interpret the text as one wish and will not change one dogma of Orthodoxy.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/27/10


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Where did this interpretation came from, asked ginger?

Good question. The belief seems to be getting attention from the 4th century. Many Eastern Fathers believed it (who was not part of Rome). There is not much commentaries/homilies on this book in the first centuries of Church History as it was one of the "debated" books. Starting from the 6th century, we start seeing them (i..e, Oecumenius & Andrew of Caesarea wrote complete commentaries)

And by the way, I don't see why the text can not have multiple interpretations. It is common for one symbol to represent more than one thing (as in the case in Revelation 12:1-2 which one may believe it is the Virgin Mary AND the true Israel, as some do).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/27/10


Iganatus,I tell you why,but first read rev 1 -1 the things john wrote were about the furture,jesus was born some 90 years previous to johns vision and writing of revelation.
---tom2 on 10/27/10


The Fathers gave two interpretation on this passage. The women is either the Theotokos or the true Israel, the Church.

"I believe that is what it means but WHY do the catholics believe it is Mary, Jesus' mother?" (ginger)

It's not just Catholics. Most if not all in Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Armenian Apostolic Church, etc, believe it is the Theotokos. Also, many Protestants (including, but not limited to, the Lutherans, Anglicans, etc) also interpret the text to be a reference to the Virgin Mary.

It seems that you just rejecting this Interpretation because the Catholic Church believe in this too. Do you do this often? Make sure you don't agree with the Catholics?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/27/10


"ginger,not to bash fellow believers in our lord,but the ROMAN catholic church has a lot of false doctrines.A LOT." (tom2)

You are right. However, that Revelation 12:1-2 is (or could be) a reference to the Theotokos (my belief) is not one of them. This interpretation seems to be less popular in Protestantism, but more popular in Eastern Christianity.

Now answer this: Why is it that some Protestants find it so offensive that Revelation 12:1-2 is a reference to Virgin Mary, but others do not? I think it makes sense that it IS the Virgin Mary, and I am not even Catholic!

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 10/27/10


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ginger,not to bash fellow believers in our lord,but the ROMAN catholic church has a lot of false doctrines.A LOT.
---tom2 on 10/27/10


#2 to continue with my first response - that it is Israel, because it says further down that she gave birth to a son, who would rule the nations with an iron scepter. The son is Jesus Christ who was born out of Israel, and who will come back to rule from Israel. Therefore, ISRAEL is what is mentioned in Revelation 12:1-2.
---Leslie on 10/27/10

Luke 1:31-32:

"You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, his kingdom will never end."

Who was the Angel talking to Mary or Israel?
---Ruben on 10/27/10


The woman represents Israel (by the 12 stars on her crown - twelve tribes of Israel), but also represents Israel as the true church (body) of Christ (women = church). The woman is clothed with the sun (Christ), with the moon (Satan) under her feet.
---Leslie on 10/27/10


#2 to continue with my first response - that it is Israel, because it says further down that she gave birth to a son, who would rule the nations with an iron scepter. The son is Jesus Christ who was born out of Israel, and who will come back to rule from Israel. Therefore, ISRAEL is what is mentioned in Revelation 12:1-2.
---Leslie on 10/27/10


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\\I believe that is what it means but WHY do the catholics believe it is Mary, Jesus' mother?\\

Because there is only one Child of a woman Who has been caught up to God and His Throne and is destined to rule all nations.
---Cluny on 10/27/10


Thank you Tom.
I believe that is what it means but WHY do the catholics believe it is Mary, Jesus' mother?
Where did they get that doctrine or idea from?
---ginger on 10/27/10

Simple:

1. Rev 5 reads ""She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." This is Jesus and who gave birth to Jesus Isreal or Mary?

2. Give a scripture verse to says Isreal gave birth to the Messiah.

3. Why are Non- Catholic's so afraid to admit that the women in Rev 12 for that matter Genesis 3:15 can be Mary?

4. Jesus never calls Mary his mother instead says "women" Jhn 2:4 and Jhn 19:23 and Paul himself does also Gal 4:4
---Ruben on 10/27/10


Thank you Tom.
I believe that is what it means but WHY do the catholics believe it is Mary, Jesus' mother?
Where did they get that doctrine or idea from?
---ginger on 10/27/10


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