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Explain Luke 8:12

At the end of Luke 8:12 we find these words," lest they should believe and be saved." Do these words indicate that believing alone will get you salvation?

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John 12:30-33 KJV

30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

It is a done deal. To say that all men have not been drawn is to refute the very words of Jesus when speaking of His death. This is why His lifting up is preached. What was done in the realm of the spirit then is expressed in the earth through a people now.
---Linda on 11/7/10


Markv, we do come to God of our own freewill.We lay down our will and cruficy our will.
BUT God is the one who does the drawing.
If he doesn't do the drawing then you can't make the decision to come to Christ.
I feel sorry for you, Markv.
You limit God's power, You ignore plain scripture. You have a perverted spirit upon you that makes you think God makes people sin and God made the devil fall, too.
What you believe is all a lie according to the word of God.
What you believe is false and you will have to give an account. God says when HE is lifted up he draws ALL men unto him. But see, you don't lift him up for him to do the drawing. in fact, You tell people they can't be saved at all .
---ginger on 11/7/10


Mark, were you saved the first 8 years of your Christian faith before you became a Calvinist?
---JackB on 11/7/10


Ginger, I was hoping God would reveal His Word to some.
Point:
Most of you, (free will) believers, believe you come to Christ out of your own free will, your own works. In Galatians 1:1-9 Paul was concern over the defection from the gospel within the Galatian churches, which is evident by his greetings. Paul was attacking the Judiazers legalistic system. If Salvation is by works as they claimed, it is not of "Grace" and cannot result in "peace" since no one can be sure he has enough good works to be eternally secured. No one can avoid sin by human effort or law keeping (Rom. 3:20) so he goes on to explain to them that at "this present age" which in the Grk. does not refer to a period of time,
---Mark_V. on 11/7/10


Ginger 2:
What "this present evil age" means, an order or system. In perticular to the current world system ruled by satan (Rom. 12:2, 1 John 2:15, 16, 5:19). Deliever us according to the will of God" not the will of man by his own works, but by the will of God, which is designed through Christ sacrifice and fulfilled by His glory. Paul says, "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the Grace of Christ to a different gospel which is not another, but there are som who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ" Now isn't that what's happening? people perverting the Gospel of Grace? Promoting others to seek salvation with their own works? their own free will?
---Mark_V. on 11/7/10




Ginger 3:
Paul wasn't presenting the gospel, I wasn't either. He was warning the brethren that many were abandoning the Gospel of Grace, so was concerned. I do not know why so many fight the real truth when it is presented so clearly by God. I'm not here to warn anyone, all I'm doing is presenting the Truth and allow those who can hear, to do what is in their hearts. If they don't want to believe salvation is totally by Grace, it is really their choice. God knows that without Him you can do nothing. And people are convinced that God is helpless in the salvation of His own chosen children, whom He chose from the foundation of the world, and you know why? It would go against what they so much fight for, their free will.
---Mark_V. on 11/7/10


Mark, you have told me in previous posts that you son rejects the gospel of CHrist and you said all you could do is pray for him.

Personally, I would be wondering how I failed my child. There would be noone else to look at and blame for my own flesh and blood denying the one true God but MYSELF. I am their teacher - their guide. If my children dont believe it is MY fault. Saying it was all a part of Gods will and pushing the blame off on Him is cowardly and irresponsible.

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it./

Your son is not totally lost. Parents make mistakes to, but when we make them we should love our children enough to want to not repeat them.
---JackB on 11/7/10


//Are you not part of the saved?//---MarkV

Mark, arent you the very one that says those who dont believe your church's doctrine arent your brethren? It sounds to me like youve already decided who is or isnt saved and your reason for passing that judgement on others here isnt soley based upon that person's faith in Jesus Christ (as the word of God says), but whether or not they believe the salvation God has granted them is also offered to every person in the world.

It has always been GODs power that saves us. However,we must REPENT of thinking we can save ourselves and BELIEVE in Gods promises and power to save us. And all those promises and power lie in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That is OUR responsibility,
---JackB on 11/7/10


"What do arguments of this kind prove, but the 'free-will' does not need the grace of God, but can do all things by its own power..."-christan

No, it just makes your entire doctrine false.

If freewill isn't true, tell me why the entire bible is full of people who chose to follow God when HE asked them to?

Why then did Satan, Adam and Eve fall?
Do you think God made them to fall?

Not what the Bible says. God said everything that he created in the beginning was good.
Are you saying God created sin? That God is the author of sin?
That is not what the Bible says.
You take scripture out of its context and try to apply it but it just does not work. Too many others(most) contradict what you say.
---ginger on 11/7/10


"The passages of Scripture you cite are imperative, and they prove and establish nothing about the ability of man, but only lay down what is and what not to be done."

"Does it follow from: 'turn ye' that therefore you can turn? Does it follow from 'Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart' that therefore you can love with all your heart? What do arguments of this kind prove, but the 'free-will' does not need the grace of God, but can do all things by its own power...But it does not follow from this that man is converted by his own power, nor do the words say so, they simply say: "if thou wilt turn, telling man what he should do."
---christan on 11/6/10




Even with the conviction of the Holy Spirit in the gospel and that gospel preached to the whole world, it is obvious not all believe and receive though convinced of it's truth by the Holy Spirit. That is what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is. God's choice? No. It is not His choice that any should perish. Man chooses to be willingly ignorant.
---Linda on 11/6/10


A statement of fact,
"They can hear, see, believe, and have repentance because the Holy Spirit is present within the gospel to convict of its truth. It would not be the power of God UNTO salvation if it didn't contain God's power to convict."That is what I believe also.

Another dumb statement:
"It seems Calvinists care nothing about others but only wish to gloat over a salvation they believe was expressly meant for them and ONLY them.
Selfishness you say? Are you not part of the saved? Do you gloat? It was meant for you too, and the others who are saved. But it is not good enough. You have to have a part in that salvation in order for you to be happy. Read Linda's statement
---Mark_V. on 11/6/10


It seems Calvinists care nothing about others but only wish to gloat over a salvation they believe was expressly meant for them and ONLY them. That is where their joy comes from. Its wrapped up in selfishness instead of love for others

That isnt the heart of Jesus Christ and therefore is NOT of God. Jesus Christ GAVE love freely regardless of a man's sins. I can literally see him smiling as He did so. That is where your joy should come from as well

Im truly embarrassed to be associated with *some* men that call themselves "Christians" but dont have the same love that Jesus CHrist did
---JackB on 11/5/10


God knowing something will happen(Foreknowledge),
Does not mean he caused it to happen.
God knowing Lucifer would fall does not mean he caused Lucifer to fall.
Lucifer chose to fall.

God knowing man would fall does not mean he caused man to fall.
Man chose to fall.

Man was not created flawed. God said in the beginning that everything he created was GOOD!
The enemy came in, used what God put into man to cause them to fall and pervert man's thinking.
And guess what? God knew all of this was going to happen but he did not cause it to.
---ginger on 11/5/10


They can hear, see, believe, and have repentance because the Holy Spirit is present within the gospel to convict of its truth. It would not be the power of God UNTO salvation if it didn't contain God's power to convict.
---Linda on 11/5/10


Christan,

James 1:13-17

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his OWN lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Every GOOD gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
---JackB on 11/5/10


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Jesus says to the Samaritan woman, "If you had asked of Me, I would have given you living water."

The Samaritan woman replies, "Evermore give me this water."

Order:
1)Ask of Me
2)Woman asks
3)Water given
4)Woman evangelizes her whole city
5)Men believe and come to Jesus because of HER testimony (the water in her)
6)Men believe because they hear Him for themselves.

Water (the Spirit) was not given until she asked and she didn't know to ask until she was told about the water. She went from carrying a water pot to becoming a well of water herself as an expression of her Source.

Preacher sent
Gospel preached
Holy Spirit convicts
Man believes
Man receives
---LindaS on 11/5/10


christian God created Lucifer PERFECT. Lucifer wanted to be God. In Lucifer's fall he left the Light and became dark. God IS LIGHT and in HIM is NO DARKNESS!

Darkness is the Absence of Light. If all obeyed God,men and angels there would be no SIN, darkness or evil PERIOD!!

God is not the AUTHOR of confusion either.

You take that one verse and build a theology. God also SENT an evil spirit to Saul...to punish him. But God Himself did not create evil for Saul....


Your drawn away by YOUR OWN LUSTS AND DESIRES.
---kathr4453 on 11/5/10


"For if man has lost his freedom, and is forced to serve sin, and cannot will good, what conclusion can more justly be drawn concerning him, than that he sins and wills evil necessarily?"

"..'if thou art willing' is a verb in the subjunctive mood, which asserts nothing...a conditional statement asserts nothing indicatively." "if thou art willing", "if thou hear", "if thou do" declare, not man's ability, but his duty."

"the commandments are not given inappropriately or pointlessly, but in order that through them the proud, blind man may learn the plague of his impotence, should he try to do as he is commanded."
---christan on 11/5/10


"Throughout your treatment you forget that you said that 'free-will' can do nothing without grace, and you prove that 'free-will' can do all things without grace!"

"Even grammarians and schoolboys on street corners know that nothing more is signified by verbs in the imperative mood than what ought to be done, and that what is done or can be done should be expressed by words in the indicative. How is it that you theologians are twice as stupid as schoolboys, in that as soon as you get hold of a single imperative verb you infer an indicative meaning, as though the moment a thing is commanded it is done, or can be done?"
---christan on 11/5/10


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We are under the same Covenant that Israel rejected. if you cannot understand that part, you understand nothing. For you must be under some other covenant then the one of Grace. Oh, Israel will have their hearts circumcised and they will love the Lord with all their hearts and with their souls, but it won't happen until God is good and ready. For it has not happen yet.
Whats happening is that you are reading the Word of God that I give you and you find out that what I tell you is truth and it hurts to be wrong. What you are probably saying is, "how could I have been so wrong? It is not possible" And so it troubles you to be wrong. Jesus said,
"For without Me you can do nothing" Isn't that clear enough?
---Mark_V. on 11/5/10


Saints, God had made it very CLEAR the Order of how He works, and clearly used lifting up the serpent in the wilderness as a PERFECT EXAMPLE that God did NOT pick and choose FIRST, by forcing on certain ones the Holy Spirit making only them able to look.

Don't you just LOVE all these examples God gave us??? Cornelius receiving the Holy Spirit AFTER he believed, NOT BEFORE. Not only is it stated in Ephesians the order..God PROVED it through Example of Cornelius!!


Why do they continue to argue? Brainwashing is a dangerous thing!!!

Reasonable men and woman killed themselves through Jim Jones false teaching!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/5/10


How in all creation can they see, hear, believe, have repentance without God changing them first? You and everyone have read enough Truth, and still reject it. I'm sorry that it is not your time to know this truths. Maybe one day. Only God knows.
---Mark_V. on 11/3/10

MarkV, John 3:14-17. Please show is in the OT where God HEALED them First and THEN they looked upon the Serpent?



God has shown OVER AND OVER AND OVER the ORDER of which God works in our lives.

YOU refused because "YOU walk in the futility of YOUR minds having YOUR understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in YOU, because of the blindness of YOUR heart"
---Mark_V. on 11/3/10
---kathr4453 on 11/5/10


O JackB, you say - "Please dont tell me that you think God is the cause of Lucifer's rebellion and the fall of Adam and Eve. I weep for you soul if you truly believe this."

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Pro16:4), Isa45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." 12 "I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."

You may think you know who God is, as Paul says, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..." Save your weeping for yourself.
---christan on 11/5/10


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First of all MarkV, those words spoken to ISRAEL under LAW was never spoken to Gentiles.

Your 1.2.3.4. and so on points are Israel under the Law of Moses. Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses or did God ever make a covenant with Gentiles!

Man already perished with Adam's sin. How much more can one perish than that. Do you actually believe God promised Moses and Israel they could reverse original SIN by obeying the Law? These were temporal earthly blessings God promised THEM, not eternal ones!!!

STOP using OT LAW and earthly temporal blessings on Gentile now, then or on the Church!!!OR on anyone in the age of GRACE!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/5/10


New Covenant grace:

He came to those who sought Him not and was manifested to those who asked not for Him.

Doesn't matter whether man had the ability to seek or not. He came to seek and save. You say God authors everything. He does. He sends a man with a message that is full of His own power to convict man of His unbelief in Christ. That conviction is always present in the gospel because it is the testimony of Christ. And as we all know, there are those who reject that conviction and blaspheme the very Holy Ghost who came to them. That resistance to the Spirit of grace hardens the heart and eventually that man will go the Romans 1 way. God's choice? No, it isn't.
---Linda on 11/5/10


Answer 4: I do not know how much Truth has to be given for people to understand, so I continue to bring it forward. I know many of you pass the Scriptures that speak against you. You have no choice but to pass them. The word of God is Truth. From the beginning of Scripture it is God who not only saves some, but also passes others. He can circumcise a heart if that is His will. The will of man opposes God. I know many dispise me for speaking but the Truth has to go out. Deut. 30:17,18 says, "But if your hearts turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other Gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish, out of their own will they choose to perish. God was not responsible.
---Mark_V. on 11/5/10


Before we check the passage given, lets read one before Deut. 30:19:
Deut. 29:2-4.
"Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this day"
Deut. 30:19 we read that Moses forces the decision, exhorting Israel on the plains of Moab before the Lord (heaven) and man (earth) to choose by believing in and loving God, but they, out of thier own will were unable to commit to God in order to have life.
---Mark_V. on 11/5/10


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Answer 2: Moses was hoping that man of his own will would choose the Lord and have life. But their hearts were never circumcised by God to love the Lord with all their hears and with all their soul, in order for them to obey and choose life. Israel failed to respond to this call of Moses to the right choice (31:16-18, 27-29). With their own will, they would never choose the Lord. And to this day they haven't, why? because God has not circumcised their hearts, so they have no love for God in order for them to choose life. Deut. 30:6 is the covenant "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may have life"
---Mark_V. on 11/5/10


Answer 3: We know that Israel rejected loving the Lord and also know the very same covenant is given to all Gentiles, and the same holds true for all people. Choosing life or death was also emphasized by Jesus. The one who believe in Him had the promise of eternal life, while the one who refused to believe faced eternal death (John 3:1-36). The only way anyone can choose to love Christ, is for their hearts to be circumcised, for after God does that, they will love the Lord as the Covenant tells us. The calling goes out, but only those with a circumcised heart will respond to the Call.
---Mark_V. on 11/5/10


Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Ezr 7:13b ...which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem...
Ezr 7:15b ...have freely offered unto the God of Israel...
Ezr 7:16b ...with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly...
---micha9344 on 11/4/10


//"Almost thou persuadest" does not imply that Agrippa even became a Christian.//-- Christan

I never said he became a Christian. He resisted the calling. The fact that he said "almost" obviously means he felt the call and considered it, but in the end he hardened his heart towards the truth.

//"yet Lucifer and his angels chose to disobey, yet Adam and Eve chose to disobey". Chose? Really?//--- Christan

Please dont tell me that you think God is the cause of Lucifer's rebellion and the fall of Adam and Eve. I weep for you soul if you truly believe this.

Is that what youre saying, Christan?
---JackB on 11/4/10


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It's like me saying to you, "JackB, you almost persuaded me that free-will exist." It does not imply that I am persuaded or I even believe that free-will exist.
---christan on 11/4/10

christian and markv,

PROVE to US through scripture and the Abrahamic Covenant God clearly stipulating only certain select individuals would and could be saved. If it's in the covenant, believe me God has made it known.

You say Electing Jacob,??? yet nowhere in Galatians is Jacob even mentioned.

However Isaac is. Paul states like Isaac was, so are WE. Otherwise he would say, like Jacob was so are we.. THE ELECT!!

You are in the WRONG covenant with Jacob, that one was to Israel, not to Gentiles!
---kathr4453 on 11/4/10


JackB. Great scriptures!!!

Mormons believe, but WHAT do they believe? I cannot stress enough here. When other gospels are preached we immediately jump on Galatians, Paul stating ANY OTHER GOSPEL IS ACCURSED correct? Where and on what foundation was Paul's Gospel?

Well the one he stresses in Galatians, is the one announced to Abraham. That was NEVER annulled..NEVER! not to this very day. Yet, Mormons insist God gave Joseph Smith a NEW and Different gospel. Well, MarkV and Calvinists are doing EXACTLY the same thing. THIS is HOW we know where Cults lie!(no pun intended!

Markv states Abraham's faith was works. Galatians, Hebrews, Romans Peter in the book of Acts, and James all say NOT SO!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/4/10


JackB, again thou have failed miserably to justify your "precious free-will" in your understanding of Acts 26:24-28, because in verse 28, "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." "Almost thou persuadest" does not imply that Agrippa even became a Christian.

It's like me saying to you, "JackB, you almost persuaded me that free-will exist." It does not imply that I am persuaded or I even believe that free-will exist.
---christan on 11/4/10


Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the whole world. Sin (not sins) was spread through all mankind because of Adam. Jesus took it away. Those who look will live.

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but also the sins of the whole world.

You gonna deny that's in the Word and claim I made it up because it bothers your belief system? He was found of those who did not seek for Him and was made manifest unto them that asked not after Him. Romans 10:17-21

God is not unjust as you believe He is.
---Linda on 11/4/10


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John 12:31-33

Now is the judgment of this world, now is the prince of this world cast out,
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto Me.
THIS He spake signifying the death He would die

The death He died was on the cross as the final sacrifice for sin. Nobody was left out as He stretched one arm all the way back to Adam and the other all the way to the last man to ever be born and drew them unto Himself. Psalm 2 says, "Ask of Me, and I will give thee the nations for your inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for your possession." Jesus asked. God answered.
---LindaS on 11/4/10


Repentance

Luke 15:17-24

And when he came to himself,

And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it, and let us eat, and be merry:

For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again, he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
---JackB on 11/4/10


Kathr.. Amen

Acts 26:24-28

And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself, much learning doth make thee mad

But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak forth the words of truth and soberness

For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him, for this thing was not done in a corner

King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, ALMOST thou persuadest me to be a Christian




A perfect example of a man who felt the calling but resisted the Holy Ghost.
---JackB on 11/4/10


JackB, you continue to use the word "chose" ever so often in your interpretation of the Word of God that you may defend your "precious free-will". And in your defense you have failed miserably to show Scripture to support your claim to the many souls that's reading your reply of such interpretation like, "yet Lucifer and his angels chose to disobey, yet Adam and Eve chose to disobey". Chose? Really?

However, Paul declares, "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Romans 11:32) Yes, clearly written is the disobedience of Adam to God's command was purposed.
---christan on 11/4/10


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//For He says, "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" (Dan. 4:35.)//---MarkV

Do you not realize this verse can be used to support ANY view we have of Gods will?

He doeth according to His will...

in the army of heaven...
(yet Lucifer and his angels chose to disobey)

among the inhabitants of the earth...
(yet Adam and Eve chose to disobey)

Will those who abuse the power of free will get away with it? Of course not. Thats what the judgement is for.

Hell isnt for those who succomb to the will of God but for those who resist it.
---JackB on 11/4/10


Linda said "...but the same God who gave His Son for the sins of the whole world", wonder where you plucked this verse from. If one recall Scripture, Matthew 1:21 says -

"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because HE WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins."

This is confirmed by Christ when He declared in John 6:37 - "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." & 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

"Universal atonement" obviously does not apply in these verses presented and never will.
---christan on 11/4/10


How can any truth be hidden from anyone. Those things hidden are now revealed.

Were OT sacrifices HIDDEN to only a few chosen Jews practicing sin sacrifice? where..somewhere in secret? Of coarse not.

God has made HIS PLAN of Salvation open and easy for all to understand. How many years from Moses to Christ? God DREW PICTURES in a way man COULD understand!!!

Then John the Baptist openly proclaimed...BEHOLD the LAMB of GOD who takes away the sin OF THE WORLD!! Was not Christ OPENLY Crucified before all?

Does not say..the sin of the Elect!!!





---kathr4453 on 11/4/10


MarkV, I stand behind what I have already said. You can continue to try to explain it away, but the same God who gave His Son for the sins of the whole world is the same one who has given the scoffer the choice to be willingly ignorant of the revelation of Jesus Christ. He came to those who sought Him not and was found of them that asked not for Him, so an unbeliever not being able to seek doesn't matter. God took the initiative, just as He always does and is so secure within Himself that giving man a choice to be willingly ignorant is not a threat to Him. And, for the record, you may not have come out and said I was unsaved, but insinuating that the truth is hidden from me is saying it but hiding it in the religious jargon you accuse me of.
---Linda on 11/4/10


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Religious talk from Linda???? Really!! MarkV, Making up covenants not found in scripture is nothing more than religious talk. It has no ROOT! Joseph Smith did the same thing.

John 3:16 means it INCLUDES Gentiles, throught the promise given to Abraham. NO WHERE is there any hint of EXCLUSION in that Covenant. Nor did God make any Covenant sending specific people to hell.

1st John, again John stating not only US ,meaning Jews, but the sin of the whole world...meaning again Gentiles, promised to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant.
THIS is the ROOT (the Abrahamic Covenant spoken of in Romans 11.
---kathr4453 on 11/4/10


It is not about who is right and who is wrong. It is about bringing the Truth. That God is right is what He says in Scripture. His word does not contradict. If He does as pleases Him, there can be no other way.

For He says, "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" (Dan. 4:35.)

When God speaks He is always right and no one can say it is false. For many say that man does his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. Only man can contrive such acts from his sinful heart. Whatever God has decreed is inexorably certain, for He is without variableness, or shadow of turning (James 1:17).
---Mark_V. on 11/4/10


//The fact that you have placed these truths as determiners of anyone's salvation is testimony to the knowledge you worship.//

I huge Amen to that!

Ive told him before that some men's lust for knowledge is greater than their desire to love. He is heading down that path already.

God told us which one is more important.
---JackB on 11/4/10


It means what God means by believing.

And the faith that God means is "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6).

There is belief that has people merely accepting information and facts, and there is belief that has people acting on what they believe. Those who truly believed "first trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 1:12).

There are people who believe they need to stop smoking, and there are people who act on what they believe. If you truly believe your house is on fire, you are getting out of your burning house (c:

If we believe Jesus is right, we are loving the way Jesus loved, while on earth, in His "faith working through love," Paul says in Galatians 5:6.
---Bill on 11/4/10


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Linda, I do not question your salvation. I question what you know about God. What you have given me is nothing but religious talk, like, "nail it at the cross' and combinations of sayings that everyone puts together to show how rightieous they are, that is all you have given, and then turn around and complain. I was not trying to convince you. Only presenting the Truth of God, and it is always about God, and all you do is reject God's Word, for I do not speak for man as you and others do. I defend the right for God to do with His creation what He so pleases. While on the other hand you defend the rights of man. That does not mean you are not saved, only that you lack the Truth of Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 11/4/10


Linda 2: Where does it say what you said?
"MarkV, again you ignore what I said. The measure of faith given to every man is used to believe the gospel when it is presented. Saving faith comes by hearing that gospel and believing it, using the already given measure of faith."
Can you backup your statement with Scripture that by using the already given measure of faith will turn into saving faith? Don't just speak words put together, show from God's Word that what you say is truth.
For if you are right then faith was already in you to believe and was not a gift of God at rebirth. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works"
---Mark_V. on 11/4/10


MarkV, you speak from yourself in regards to ignoring Scripture. I have given Scriptures. You ignore them and then say I don't give Scripture. Romans 1 is full of the revelation of God to man. John says Jesus lights every man who comes into the world. Romans 12 says God has given to every man the measure of faith. This is the faith man uses to believe the gospel unto saving faith. The Holy Spirit convicts man of his unbelief in Christ, not of just unbelief itself. We may utterly fail in evangelizing the world, but the Holy Spirit is faithful in His job of convicting the world. Peter speaks of willingly ignorant scoffers. God leveled the field with the cross and He will not be judged as unrighteous, unfair, or unloving to all men.
---Linda on 11/3/10


MarkV, gnosticism is the worship of truths rather than the Truth, who is a person named Jesus. The fact that you have placed these truths as determiners of anyone's salvation is testimony to the knowledge you worship. You can sit there and in-sin-u-ate all you want that I and others are not saved because we don't eat your theology or doctrine, but the witness of the Spirit of God says otherwise. Continue to worship your "truths". I will worship the Lord Jesus Christ.
---LindaS on 11/3/10


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Linda, I gave you Scripture, what do you have to say to what God's Word says? Why do you ignor the passages that deal with lost man. They are presented to you. They tell you the condition of the lost. No spiritual discernment. No Spiritual life, the flesh prophets nothing. No spiritual gifts. No love for Christ. No repentance unless the Spirit convicts him. No faith unless it come through God's Word. They are all ignorant, because of the blindness of their hearts. How in all creation can they see, hear, believe, have repentance without God changing them first? You and everyone have read enough Truth, and still reject it. I'm sorry that it is not your time to know this truths. Maybe one day. Only God knows.
---Mark_V. on 11/3/10


kathr,

thank you for clearly stating what i had already stated yesterday:

the devils believe there is one God. Muslims believe in one God. Belief in one God will not save you.

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ [only] will save you. ---aka on 11/2/10
---aka on 11/3/10


there's a great differenc ebetween believing in and beleiving on

---alan8566_of_UK on 11/3/10


MarkV, again you ignore what I said. The measure of faith given to every man is used to believe the gospel when it is presented. Saving faith comes by hearing that gospel and believing it, using the already given measure of faith.

There is one thing that WILL NOT take place when man stands before God. God will not be judged by man as unrighteous, unfair, or anything other than perfect love because He has leveled the field by the cross of Christ. There is not one more thing He needs to do to reveal His desire for man.
---Linda on 11/3/10


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Kathr....couldn't of said it better. I totally agree.
How do the ones who don't agree explain
John 3:14,15.
---JIM on 11/3/10


Jim, not only so, but John 3:14-17 ALSO clearly state WHOSOEVER WILL, not just an elect select few!.

The serpant held up in the OT was to ALL who looked upon...Just as WE hold up Calvary. Jesus said John 12, If I be lifted up I WILL DRAW all men unto myself....this is the promise AFTER Christ went to the Cross!! Before Jesus went to the cross, God drew men to Christ.
---kathr4453 on 11/3/10


Kathr....couldn't of said it better. I totally agree.
How do the ones who don't agree explain
John 3:14,15.
---JIM on 11/3/10


//The Bible says that even Satan & his demons believe in God (James 2:19)//

---aka on 11/2/10

Lets be clear here. Satan and demons do not believe Jesus died for their sin!!!

Believing in GOD won't save anyone and this is not what we are asked to believe to begin with. WE believe God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in HIM...((who is the HIM HERE, God of Christ?)) Will not perish but have eternal life.

To believe in God without Christ and His work on the Cross will save NO ONE!!!

To believe God sent His SON to die for YOUR SIN and place your faith in THAT will save you!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/3/10


mima,this parable concerns a discription of the those who receive the word and their lives afterwards,or how they live their lives afterwards.In 8-12 jesus is describing a person who hear the word but the devil comes as they hear and takes away the word from their hearts,I believe he means hardens their heart to the truth. Also in this type person there probably is no repentence,which softens the heart.
---tom2 on 11/3/10


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Linda, every person has faith in something, that's obvious since many have faith in Islam and others. But not everyone has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. For that faith comes from hearing the word of God. It comes because it is not there to begin with. And when it comes, it does not come to everyone who hears the gospel, only to a limited few, for only those will believe in the words of Scripture and only those will see their sin, and only those will give their lives to Christ. None of the others will. They refused because "they walk in the futility of their minds, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart"
---Mark_V. on 11/3/10


//The Bible says that even Satan & his demons believe in God (James 2:19)//

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe [and tremble].

the devils believe there is one God. Muslims believe in one God. Belief in one God will not save you.

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ will save you.
---aka on 11/2/10


Romans 12:3. Christan, one thing I don't do is make up Scripture.
---Linda_Smith on 11/2/10


Linda... and it amazes me that you continue to add on to Scripture with your own scripture "God has given to every man the measure of faith.". Which is the very doctrine of "free-will" and until you show me in the Scriptures that God declared this in His Word, you are just adding on to Scripture. The parable of the grounds we are discussing talks about faith.

And using Scripture like "faith to faith" and wedging it between your own carnal thinking does not make your comment any more Godly than what an unbeliever says.

For this is how Paul spoke, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." - Romans 1:17
---christan on 11/2/10


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Christan, it amazes me that this has to be said AGAIN:

God has given to every man the measure of faith. This measure of faith is the faith used to believe the gospel unto saving faith (from faith to faith). I do not know why you continue to insist that some other faith to believe is needed. It takes a great deal of stubborness to continue to ignore what has been written. Ignoring it won't make it go away.
---Linda on 11/2/10


The reason for the question was I was reading this verse in Acts 16:30-31"30-And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31-And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

If simple believing is not salvation what about this verse 31 above?
---mima on 11/2/10


No, believing alone will NOT get you salvation. The Bible says that even Satan & his demons believe in God (James 2:19) - yet Satan and his demons will NEVER be saved. What I have learned is that NOT everyone that says they are a Christian because they believe in God is one - the sad TRUTH is that MOST that say they are Christians because they believe in God are NOT, and are headed to Hell. Just because I stand in a garage and say "I believe in cars" does NOT make me a car.
---Leslie on 11/2/10


This is the parable of the four grounds, which is about the hearts of man. Only the last ground was was with faith - which we know is a gift from God. The first three grounds never received the gift of faith, that's why the Word of God never took root and never will.

We are actually witnessing these four grounds now at work in this blog site and the surroundings of our everyday lives. Special attention must be made to those who call themselves Christians.

Verse 10, Christ tells us - "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables..."

So much then to those who claim that "God has given to EVERY MAN the MEASURE OF FAITH."
---christan on 11/2/10


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Matthew 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mark 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.
---micha9344 on 11/2/10


2/2
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Hear, Believe, Receive, Act.
Phi 2:13, Eph 2:10
---micha9344 on 11/2/10


//Do these words indicate that believing alone will get you salvation?//
No the OT taught a works salvation, even into early Acts Faith+works

Luke 18 Rich ruler
Acts 2:37 What must we do.

It is not until the Pauline letters to the BoC we get faith +0 for salvation. Believing what Christ accomplished with the Cross, death burial and resurrection
ref 1 Cor 15:1-4
---michael_e on 11/2/10


Those by the way side are they that hear, then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved

I think this is very very plain. the devil takes away the word form these who hear, so that they do not believe and are not saved.
---francis on 11/2/10


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No. That is a false teaching.
---Ignatius on 11/2/10


James 2:19 makes it clear that to believe in
divine truth is not enough. He tells us that
even the devil believes.
James 2:20 makes the same point. Faith (belief) without works is dead. True belivers are those who live out their faith
by enjoying to do Go's will,resulting in the growth of the fruits of the Spirit. In other words: They walk the talk!
---Pierre on 11/2/10


No, they don't.
---Cluny on 11/2/10


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