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Explain 2 Corinthians 3:7-9

Explain why 2 Corinthians 3:7-9 speaks of a ministry of death and condemnation written in letters on stone.

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 ---leej on 11/5/10
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2 Corinthians 3:7-9
God wrote the law on tables of stone. The giving of the law was accompanied by such glory that when Moses came down from the mountain they could not even look at him. That glory passed away. When you think of the Holy Spirit writing the law of God IN PEOPLE'S HEARTS, how much more glorious it is than God writing His laws of tables of stone? If the OT system containing only promises of salvation was glorious, how much more glorious is God's offer of salvation today now that the OT promises have been fulfilled by Jesus. Because of the glorious act of God givng his son to die for us, the OT services are now at an end. If that which lasted for a short time was glotrious, how much more glorious is that which will last forever.
---francis on 11/12/10


Francis, Paul said the Law produces in us the desire for sin (Rom 7:7-12)

"And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death." (verse 10)

Paul never said that OBEYING the Law brings death. Instead he clearly showed that because of sin in us, we don't have it within us to obey because of fleshly desires.

He also said that by agreeing that the Law is good, we have obeyed it in our spirit.

"So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)

Also, the just shall live by faith (Rom 1:17)
---James_L on 11/12/10


MarkV, I loved your last post. It was awesome.
Only in Christ can we obey those laws.
They are written on our hearts and minds now.
That obedience comes automatically when we are in Christ.
---ginger on 11/9/10

Only In Christ we can obey the law?
I totally agree, but You and Mark claim that you are in Christ, and you are still sinners, so you don't obey the law.
How do you explain that?
---David on 11/12/10


Francis - I want you to answer the question as posed by the Blog and not try to sidetrack the subject onto something else.

I am beginning to realize that you apparently are a very disturbed individual and that is because as someone that does not know Christ, you may feel you are losing control and simply refuse to be submissive to the demand of God's Spirit to surrender your life to His Lordship.

Recall Jesus told us that "whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospels will save it." Mark 8:35

You really need Jesus as your Savior since the law has only revealed your ugly sinfulness.
---leej on 11/12/10


francis, the SIMPLE answer is this.... I live in the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ, not the Mosaec Law.
It's IMPOSSIBLE to live under two entirely different covenants at the same time.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/10




Does your faith in Jesus permit you to stand in judgment of other Christians?
---leej

YES IT DOES!

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die, if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thine hand.
---francis on 11/12/10


kathr4453 - I would not give him the benefit of an answer as it is clear he is avoiding the topic presented in this tread, namely why is the 10 commandments viewed as the ministry of death & condemnation.

Let's make him address the issue presented instead of filling up the tread with his false doctrine.
---leej on 11/12/10


kathr4453 I like to keep things simple, so can I get a YES or NO answer to this question:

Do you believe that a christian who has FAITH in Jesus, has accepted christ as his or her personal saviour, and has accepted that he or she is SAVED BY GRACE and not by his own works, AND not saved or made righteous by the law, should keep the TEN COMMANDMENTS?

YES OR NO IS ALL I NEED FROM YOU

my answer is YES.
---francis on 11/11/10


Why would obedience to the law of God lead to DEATH?

Look at how the BIBLE sees the law of God, can you not tell that LEEJ and MERKV are satans disciples:

Psalms 119:70 Their heart is as fat as grease, [but] I delight in thy law.

Psalms 119:77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law [is] my delight.

Psalms 119:92 Unless thy law [had been] my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

Psalms 119:143 thy commandments [are] my delights.

Psalms 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD, and thy law [is] my delight.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.
---francis on 11/11/10


francis //does your faith in Jesus allow you to:

1. worship other gods.2. worship idols.
3. misuse God's name.4. not keep the Sabbath holy.5. DisHonor your father & mother.6. murder.7. commit adultery.
8. steal.9. lie.10.covet

Yes should answer Yes or No for yourself as slander of other Christians seems to be your worst sin.

Does your faith in Jesus permit you to stand in judgment of other Christians?

Romans 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.

you need to acknowledge your own ugly sinfulness and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?
---leej on 11/11/10




Thank you francis for that repost. I thought that is what you are trying to say. On the computer it is sometimes hard to express what you really mean.
We all know without Christ we can't fulfill the law.
When we are in Christ we can because it is not us working but HIM working..AMEN.

Aren't you glad that we no longer have to work to follow and fulfill the law?

I know I am. I am glad that when God looks at me, he sees his son and not my sins that were washed away by him. I am glad that in Christ he makes me able stand and do right because it is all him and not us.
---ginger on 11/11/10


Samuel //True many want to be free to have other gods, use His name as a curse word and break every one of the Commandments while saying this is freedom in JESUS. But JESUS gave us freedom from sin not to live in sin.

True, it is incongruent one who is born of the Spirit and has become a new creation in Christ would tolerate sin in his life.

When a person becomes a Christian, that person becomes a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) that adhors sin, and comes under the discipline of God (Hebrews 12:6f).

But Francis, a legalist, insists that Old covenant laws are binding on the Christian - an issue that was settled by the Jerusalem council - that Gentiles need not be circumcised AND observe the laws of Moses (Acts 15,5).
---leej on 11/11/10


Samuel //The Ten commandment help to convict of sin and define sin. That is their sole purpose.

Ro 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

And with the knowledge of ones sinfulness, should come the realization that one needs a Savior, Jesus.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The accusation that other Christians are agents of Satan truly reveals the moral depravity inherent in some who claim the name of Christ.
---leej on 11/11/10


francis, to answer your question. I believe Christ in me lifts me up into a higher
life In Him,requiring MORE and that life goes beyond keeping the 10 commandments.

Example: There is no Commandment to be crucified with Christ, and live the Power of His life in me....higher than the 10

No commandment tells me to put others more important than myself...or gives me the power to do that.

No commandment tells me I must forgive someone who has stolen or murdered my child...the Law required an eye for an eye.

I believe if all you measure yourself by is the big 10...you've fallen short.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/10


Do not be fooled by those who would bring you back under the law.

Scripture is plain they are of Hagar from Mt. Sinai, brearing children for slavery.

Galatians 4:21-26 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? Abraham had 2 sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery, she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she our mother.
---leej on 11/11/10


JESUS is my saviour. The law as pointed out defines sin and tells us what is wrong. I look to JESUS to save me. I look at the Ten Commandments and see that he is saving me from a life of sin which is breaking these laws.

True many want to be free to have other gods, use His name as a curse word and break every one of the Commandments while saying this is freedom in JESUS. But JESUS gave us freedom from sin not to live in sin.

The Ten commandment help to convict of sin and define sin. That is their sole purpose.
---Samuel on 11/11/10


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francis - will you please respond to the Blog question as to why the ten commandments engraven on stone is viewed as the ministry of death and condemnation.

Perhaps you should be honest and admit you have no good answer.

All you seem to want to do is to toot the ten commandments which scripture tells us only reveals our sinfulness and our need for a savior,while the rest of us desire to continue "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

When will you make Jesus your savior or will you continue to believe obedience to the law is your savior?
---leej on 11/11/10


Do not be fooled by those who claim that christians do not have to obey the ten commandments, they are doing satans work to get you to sin.

Do not be fooled by those who say that if you obey the law of God it is because you do not accept grace.

Those of us who keep the commandments of God do it because we are saved, we have faith, and we LOVE GOD and our neighbour.

What is the arguement against this text:

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
---francis on 11/11/10


Francis, a real true Christian does follow the law...but only if they are in Christ. Hence being a Christian. We alone can never fulfill the law. But when we get in Christ and he in us, we follow the law but really it is not us following the law now is it? No, Because we are dead and hidden in Christ and it is HIM who lives that people really see fulfilling the law.
So without Christ none of us would be saved or able to fulfill the law.
Remember that those who walk in the Spirit of Christ shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh...break the law!
Only those who walk after flesh break the law. We become sinless because of Christ and our ability to stay without sin is because of Christ.
---ginger on 11/11/10

AMEN
---francis on 11/11/10


Mark_V. does your faith in Jesus allow you to:
1. worship other gods.
2. worship idols.
3. misuse God's name.
4. not keep the Sabbath holy.
5. DisHonor your father & mother.
6. murder.
7. commit adultery.
8. steal.
9. lie.
10.covet

YES OR NO?
---francis on 11/11/10


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Francis, a real true Christian does follow the law...but only if they are in Christ. Hence being a Christian. We alone can never fulfill the law. But when we get in Christ and he in us, we follow the law but really it is not us following the law now is it? No, It is still Christ fulfilling the law. Why? Because we are dead and hidden in Christ and it is HIM who lives that people really see fulfilling the law.
So without Christ none of us would be saved or able to fulfill the law.
Remember that those who walk in the Spirit of Christ shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh...break the law!
Only those who walk after flesh break the law. We become sinless because of Christ and our ability to stay without sin is because of Christ.
---ginger on 11/11/10


kathr4453 I like to keep things simple, so can I get a YES or NO answer to this question:

Do you believe that a christian who has FAITH in Jesus, has accepted christ as his or her personal saviour, and has accepted that he or she is SAVED BY GRACE and not by his own works, AND not saved or made righteous by the law, should keep the TEN COMMANDMENTS?

YES OR NO IS ALL I NEED
---francis on 11/11/10


2 Cor. 10:12 Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.

The legalist needs the law in order to compare themselves with others and like the chief enemies of Jesus (who constantly accused Him of breaking the Jewish Sabbath) use the law to accuse others of being unrighteous, agents of Satan.

Joh 8:48 The Jews answered him [Jesus], "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?"

But such is the plight of those who are of the flesh, not having the spiritual rebirth in Christ. John 3:3-4.
---leej on 11/11/10


One thing that is obvious from francis comments. He cannot respond to the Blog Question as to why the 10 commandments, graven on letters of stone, is viewed as the ministry of death and condemnation.

Clearly the problem here is one of idolatry, namely worship of the 10 commandments especially the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.

When the Philippian jailer asked the Apostle Paul what he must do to be saved, Paul simply told him "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16), he did not add that one must also obey the 10 commandments especially the Jewish Sabbath.

With the legalist to be saved, it is Jesus plus plus plus other things as to believe in Jesus alone is not enough.
---leej on 11/11/10


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Francis noone here is advocating sinning and disobeying the laws of God.

His laws are good. However we are evil. God gave us this law to show us our need for Jesus Christ and HIS power to fulfill the things mentioned in the law.

Without Jesus we dont have the love required to fulfill all those laws. The Holy Ghost gives us that power and we obey out of LOVE for God not to declare ourselves righteous by that law.
---JackB on 11/11/10


kathr4453
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith?


---francis on 11/10/10

No francis but we do make VOID The Grace of God through the law. Please read Galatians 2:20 & 21.

But what I see is you are confusing GRACE/FAITH/LAW.

But don't feel bad, MarkV does too. Sorry MarkV, however YOU believe we are saved by FAITH through Grace..and not the other way around.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/10


francis //Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death

and to continue the verse you only partially quote...

BUT THE FREE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.

When are you going to accept the fact that our salvation is in Christ and it is a free gift. You do not have to earn it by being a good little boy.

If you accept that free gift of salvation in Christ, then you become part of God's family and fall under His discipline if you fail to obey Him. Read Hebrews 12:6f if you have a Bible.
---leej on 11/11/10


Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.

Matthew 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Leviticus 19:18 thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: (Romans 13:9 Matthew 19:19 James 2:8 Galatians 5:14)
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet

ONLY THE DISCIPLES OF SATAN WOULD SAY DO NOT DO THESE
---francis on 11/11/10


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... it doesnt make sense to assert here Paul was telling believers the Ten Commandments were no longer binding.

To you it does not make sense since you really do not know the Scriptures.

Php. 3: 4-7 If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:. touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

And Paul taught one is severed from Christ if one sought to be justified by the law.

Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace.

The only thing the law does for you is to point out your sin and your need for a Savior.
---leej on 11/11/10


Francis, I knew it would not take long for you to bring satan to your defense. What else could you do? You did what so many others who stand under the law do. No faith in the Lord's sacrifice, so when they cannot answer, they pull satan out of their pocket to defend them. You could have lasted one more day but you had enough. You got angry as Cain did, and sin was at your door knocking and you anwered the door. You who speak against others do what you say they do.
---Mark_V. on 11/11/10


The arguements as made by LEEJ and MARKV and a few others is truely satanic.
To say to any christian that should they
not worship other gods, not worship idols,
not misuse God's name, Keep the Sabbath holy, Honor your father & mother, notmurder,
ot commit adultery, not steal, not lie,
not covet, it will lead them to death can only be of satan and his disciples.

By MARKV and LEEJ doctrine to be truely righteous one MUST: worship other gods, worship idols,misuse God's name, NOT Keep the Sabbath holy, NOT Honor your father & mother, murder, commit adultery, steal, lie,and covet.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death
Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live, and my law as the apple of thine eye.
---Francis on 11/10/10


The reasons why MARKV and LEEJ say that if we honour our parents, worship one God, do nor worship idols, do not take God's name in vain, keep the sabbath, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lieor do not commit adultery, we will die are:

1: they are unlearned and unstable (2 Peter 3:16)

2: Those who try to make that point that the 10 commandments was done away with really dont want to make that point. What they really want to say is that ONLY THE 7TH DAY SABBATH is gone, not the rest of the 10 COMMANDMENTS.

3: They are Agents of SATAN
---francis on 11/11/10


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//Those who use these texts to try to make that point the moral law was done away with really dont want to make that point.

I do not know of anyone who would even attempt to say moral law was done away with. It is only that our own morality or righteousness does not count toward our salvation as scripture is very clear our righteousness is in Christ apart from the law.

1 Cor. 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption:

Romans 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:
---leej on 11/10/10


francis //Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet,

why do you always fail to quote the entire verse.

the bottom line in that verse is that love of neighbor fulfills the law, not obedience to the sabbath or dietary laws or to someone's ethical or moral standard.

//Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

Yes, once the believer is in Christ, he or she may cease from trying to become righteous in order to merit God's favor or eternal salvation. Of course that is what the Bible tells us, not olde Ellen White says.
---leej on 11/10/10


Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet,
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother, (which is the first commandment with promise,)
Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
---francis on 11/10/10


Given all else that Paul and the Bible say about obedience to the Ten Commandments, it doesnt make sense to assert here that Paul was telling believers that the Ten Commandments were no longer binding. Those who use these texts to try to make that pointthat the moral law was done away withreally dont want to make that point. What they really want to say is that only the seventh-day Sabbath is gone, not the rest of the law.
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet
---francis on 11/10/10


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kathr4453
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith?

To make is clearer
do we obey these or break these:
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet
---francis on 11/10/10


francis //Because of the glorious act of God givng his son to die for us, the OT services are now at an end. If that which lasted for a short time.

For once we have an agreement as clearly one of those OT services was the observance of the Sabbath.

As the Sabbath reflected back on that REST of God after the 6 days of Creation, it looks forward to that rest we have in Christ.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest,...
---leej on 11/10/10


francis - please consider,

Romans 8:3-5 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

So if you keep hugging the ten Commandments, it has NO power to save you for the righteous requirement of the law will not be fulfilled in those who do not live by His Spirit.

You are wrong if you think you can be rigtheous in God's sight by observing the 10 commandments. Why can you not see that?
---leej on 11/10/10


Ginger, what you said is true. First, there is no Saturday Sabbath anymore for those who are in Christ. There is no law that is legal to us, if there was, we would be under the law, and the law would condemn us to death if we broke it. Thats why we are told there is no salvation under the law. Because no one could keep the law, if they broke one, they were breaking all of them. We (believers in Christ) are told there is no more condemnation. Believers, in Christ can now worship God any day. No specific day is required anymore. If there was, then it would be a law. This again, does not mean we can do what we want, we are now slaves to Christ, and are now guided by the Christ. We are not on our own anymore, doing our own thing.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/10


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Romans 9:30-33

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone
,

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
---JackB on 11/10/10


Even if you never knew of God or of righteous living, you are more likely to live longer if you
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.
than if you did the opposite.

I THUS CHALLENGE MARKV and LEEJ to go home this evening and say to your spouse, " honey you must commit adultery or you will die." and to your children " do not honour your parents that you may live." " because obedience to the ten commandments leads to death, you must break them that you may live in christ."
---francis on 11/10/10


Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.Gal 3:11-12
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith:


francis, The LAW was brought in that SIN would abound..Romans 5, not give life.

You can keep the law all you want...but it will never JUSTIFY you.

And after we are Justified guess what?

We CONTINUE to live by faith..read 2 Peter ch 1!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/10/10


Francis, the law brings death.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/10
Are you saying that is anyone does these:
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.

then it leads to their death?

Explain to me, how does worshiping ONE God lead to death, or how does honouring your parents lead to death.
---francis on 11/10/10


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Paul is comparing the old testament of "a life for a life", with the New Testament of "turn the other cheek". Jesus spelled out this difference in Matthew 5:20,38-48.
---Eloy on 11/10/10


Proverbs 4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

Proverbs 7:1 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.
Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live, and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law, but let thine heart keep my commandments:
Proverbs 3:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Exodus 20:12 Honour father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
---francis on 11/10/10


Worshipping the ten commanments is also a sin.
---micha9344 on 11/10/10


Thank you MarkV.
If what Francis is saying is true about saturday sabbath, then what do we about what Jesus told us?
Resting every day? Because in Christ all days are dedicated to the Lord. Everything we do is dedicated to the Lord. In fact I would venture to say that it is not us working at all but Christ who is working because we are in him.
We are supposed to rest and let Christ work for us in all things. Is that not correct?
I am not saying don't worship on saturday.
Because it really does not matter what day we come together to worship. What matters is the worship not the day. The covenant now is through the spirit not our flesh.
---ginger on 11/10/10


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Francis,

It is not the obeying of the law that brings death. It was the law that exposed the fact that people were sinning - which brings death.

Secondly, Anyone saying the keeping of the law brings death means that it brings death if you are depending on your keeping of the law for salvation.
---Bruce5656 on 11/10/10


Francis, the law brings death.
"For I would not have known 'coveousness unless the law had said, "you shall not covet." But sin taking opportunity by the commandment, produce in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death."
With no law there is no sin, no death. The law brought sin which brought us death. With Christ He brings life. He kept the law for us, in that while we were yet sinners He died for us so that we would not be condemned by the law. The lost are under the law so condemned to death. They need Christ to bring them life.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/10


francis //proper interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7-9

Your "proper" interpretation DOES NOT address the issue mentioned of death and condemnation.

Following the commandments instead of the Spirit behind the commandments will leave you without any justification whatsoever.

Roman 3 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

All you get from following the 10 commandments is the knowledge of sin for you will continue to fail as no one can possibly become righteous enough to please God.

Even the Apostle Paul who boasted "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless" counted it all as dung. Php. 3:8f
---leej on 11/10/10


proper interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7-9

At Sinai, God wrote the law on tables of stone. The giving of the law was accompanied by such glory that when Moses came down from the mountain the israelites could not even look at his face. But that glory had to pass away. When you think of the Holy Spirit writing the law of God IN PEOPLE'S HEARTS, how much more glorious it is than God writing His laws of tables of stone? If the OT system of religious services containing only promises of salvation was glorious, how much more glorious is God's offer of salvation today now that the OT promises have been fulfilled and ratified by His son Jesus.

No bible texts says that if we honour our father and mother ( 6th commanement we will die
---FRANCIS on 11/9/10


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//Surely no servous christian believes that if he obeys the TEN COMMANDMENTS he will die.//

He will if he is basing his righteousness on the laws he obeys.

If you think you follow all of Gods laws perfectly and have obtained righteousness by them then you are deceiving yourself.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
---JackB on 11/10/10


2 Corinthians 3:7-9
Because of the glorious act of God givng his son to die for us, the OT services are now at an end. If that which lasted for a short time ( THE OT SERVICES) was glotrious, how much more glorious is that which will last forever.

Surely no servous christian believes that if he obeys the TEN COMMANDMENTS he will die. the BIBLE says the opposite:

Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law, but let thine heart keep my commandments:

Proverbs 3:2 For LENGTH OF DAYS AND LONG LIFE, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy DAYS MAY BE LONG..

LEEJ MARK your interpretation must be wrong because the BIBLE says OPPOSITE
---francis on 11/9/10


Ginger, excellent answers you put down. So very true. Concerning what Francis had said, he was attempting to bring the law from the start, in order to bring Saturday Sabbath. "James 2:11 For he that said, Do not misuse God's name, said also, Keep the Sabbath holy. Now if thou Do not misuse God's name, yet if thou do not Keep the Sabbath holy, thou art become a transgressor of the law"
We and I suppose others know what his purpose was, the Saturday Sabbath. That is why he always speaks of the law, or the Ten Commandments. After he mentioned 2 Cor. 3:7-9, he threw in Proverbs 7:2. He did not want to miss the chance to throw obedience of the law into a passage that has nothing to do with obedience.
---Mark_V. on 11/9/10


What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

After that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
---JackB on 11/9/10


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Honestly I don't believe that francis is saying we obey the law through our flesh. That just is not possible.

MarkV, I loved your last post. It was awesome.
Only in Christ can we obey those laws.
They are written on our hearts and minds now.
That obedience comes automatically when we are in Christ. It is him who causes us to obey because he loves us and we love him. That is the only way.
Christ summed them up in the 2 greatest laws that we fulfill when we walk in him...his spirit as MarkV posted.
---ginger on 11/9/10


Francis, what would be a good idea is for you to listen to what Linda has said and also Leej. Then block everything you had in your mind and began again studying with an open mind and in prayer. Ask God to inlighten you with His Word and you will know the Truth and it will set you free from the bondage of the law. It is a heavy load for you to carry, and you want others to carry it also, there is no salvation by works of the law, for the law brings death. Sorry Francis.
---Mark_V. on 11/9/10


francis --Can you honestly tell me, that obedience to these:

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5....10 Do not covet

leads to DEATH and CONDEMNATION?

YES!

what you are trying to say is that obedience to the law, especially the ten commandments is your savior.

Sorry but we Christians believe only that Jesus is our savior and that he is our righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

1 Cor. 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
---leej on 11/9/10


Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious,

clearly ministration of death (condemnation, verse 9) = the ten commandments.

What else was written on letter and engraved on stone?

And what else is the ten commandments?

De 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. (see also 10:4).

And the Old Covenant was declared obsolete in Hebrew 8:13.

Conclusion: Francis is really a Jew with a Jesus tag!!!!
---leej on 11/9/10


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MARKV
let us make this very simple.
Print the part of my post that says "the ministry of death was Moses face."

then answer me this:
Can you honestly tell me, that obedience to these:

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.

leads to DEATH and CONDEMNATION?
---francis on 11/9/10


It does if you are seeking righteousness by that law. Righteousness comes only by Jesus Christ, not by the works of the law. To seek justification by the works of the law is to fall from grace.
---Linda on 11/9/10


Can anyone honestly tell me, that obedience to these:

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.

leads to DEATH and CONDEMNATION?
---francis on 11/9/10


Francis, did you not say:

"Notice that it was not the ten commandments that they could not look at, it was the face of moses.(the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance)"

I'm sure I am right. No mistake about it. I read it again and again. You went so far as to say,

"This text does not refer to the ten commandments as administering death."
You did say that Francis, you took the passage out of context and changed the meaning of God's word, and put your own meaning to add Proverbs 7:2. The passage is not speaking about obedience.
---Mark_V. on 11/9/10


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MARKV Never did I say Moses face was the ministry of death. read my post again.

Notice what the passage says
Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious,

yet the bible says that it was Moses face that shined NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.

so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance,

which glory was to be done away

and the shine of moses face did Go away but the ten commandments went on to palestine

They are speaking of the OCCASION when Moses came down and brought the ten commandments. AT that very occasion moses also told them of the death which takes place when the law is trangressed.
---francis on 11/9/10


A hearty amen to Mark. There is only one ministry written and engraven on stones. We all know what it is. The new testament develops this by telling us what the purpose of the law was. It's purpose was not to deliver you from sin but to show you sin's dominion.
---Linda on 11/9/10


Francis, sorry but your interpretation Of 2 Cor. 3:7-9 is so far wrong. The context does not show that the ministry of death was Moses face. There is two things mentioned in that statement. First "the ministry of death written an engrave on stones,"
Second, there was a glory of his countenence alright, because Moses had just come down from receiving the ministry of death written and engraved on stones.
The law is a killer (v.6) "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" The law brings knowledge of sin. It acts as a ministry of death because no one can satisfy the demands of the law on his own and is therefore condemned (Gal. 3:22, Rom. 7:1-13, Gal. 3:10-13, 3:19-4:5).
---Mark_V. on 11/9/10


James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

substitute any of the ten commandments into this passage, find a pair that makes the verse false:

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not worship other gods, said also, Do not worship idols. Now if thou Do not worship other gods, yet if thou worship idols, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

James 2:11 For he that said, Do not misuse God's name, said also, Keep the Sabbath holy. Now if thou Do not misuse God's name, yet if thou do not Keep the Sabbath holy, thou art become a transgressor of the law
---francis on 11/9/10


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James 2:11 For he that said, Do not lie, said also, Do not covet. Now if thou Do not lie, yet if thou covet, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

James 2:11 For he that said, Honor your father & mother, said also, Do not steal. Now if thou Honor your father & mother, yet if thou steal, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

You could exchange any of the ten commandments, and the verse would still be doctrinally true.

Those who are called and choosen, keep all ten commandments.Those who are not chosen, live in one form of transgression or another.

Revelation 17:14 they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
---francis on 11/9/10


Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law, but let thine heart keep my commandments:
Proverbs 3:2 For LENGTH OF DAYS, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy DAYS MAY BE LONG upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Given all else that Paul and the Bible say about obedience to the Ten Commandments, it doesnt make sense to assert here that Paul was telling believers that the Ten Commandments were no longer binding. Those who use these texts to try to make that pointthat the moral law was done away withreally dont want to make that point. What they really want to say is that only the seventh-day Sabbath is gone, not the rest of the law.

SHAME
---francis on 11/9/10


2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance, which [glory] was to be done away:

Notice that it was not the ten commandments that they could not look at, it was the face of moses.(the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance)

This text does not refer to the ten commandments as administering death.Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live,

It refers to THE OCCASSION when moses came down WITH THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, also bring instructions to build the tebanacle, and sacrifice animals when they broke the ten commandments. ( death)
---francis on 11/9/10


Hi, Lee (c:

This is talking about the ministry of the Law of Moses, which is known as the Old Testament, which came before Jesus came to give us His New Testament. The Law of Moses "was added because of transgressions," our Apostle Paul gives us, in Galatians 3:19. So, the purpose of this Law is to expose what is sin (Romans 7:7), therefore to point out and condemn what is love-dead. So, it is ministration of condemnation and death, but for God's good purpose >

"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24)
---Bill on 11/6/10


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Thus the bottom line for the Christian then is not to live by the 10 commandments - declared to be the ministry of death and condemnation - but to live in the more glorious ministry of the Spirit?
---leej on 11/6/10


The Letter of the law, written on tables of stone, revealed sin, bringing man to a knowledge of sin. With that knowledge came responsibility and accountably. Man was commanded to keep the law without an empowerment beyond his own ability to do so. The purpose? To make him aware of his need of a savior and an empowerment beyond his own.
No man in himself can keep the law in its entirety, thus the letter kills. For the penalty for violation of any kind concerning the law, in itself, is death. However, the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has freed the believer from the law of sin and death through His atoning sacrifice, via an empowered and applied gift of faith, and an inspired confession and acknowledgment of that payment, as sufficient.
---Josef on 11/6/10


The Law brings death to self by showing we are NOT good or righteous, and need a savior - Jesus Christ. Knowing that Jesus Christ is perfect, sinless, righteous, and good, and that He paid the price we could not, now we have hope in that grace.
---Leslie on 11/5/10


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