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Free Will Predestination

What do you think of the old dispote about predestination versus free will? Is one correct? Are the two actually the same? Ideas?

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MarkV, Hebrews 3 and 4 say the Gospel was preached to them as well as to us. I'm so sorry you don't understand Hebrews 3 and 4 or that those who did not enter in..DIED in their SIN in the wilderness.

Remember PICTURES drawn by God explaining HOW HE WORKS, explaining what FAITH God's way means...it's all right there, explained in Hebrews 3 and 4..AND Hebrews 11, they did not enter in because of lack of faith...

Therefore MarkV, your version of faith and God's are two entirely different things. YOURS is not found in Scripture!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/16/10


//(2) Did Jesus come to save the "saved" or the "lost"?
A. Jesus came to save His children who were lost.

(3) How could Jesus save you if you weren't "lost" previously?
A. I was lost when I was born of the flesh. // --- MarkV


Sounds to me like you believe your were SAVED at some other point in time and then were born in the flesh and LOST again.

Thats some creepy doctrine, Mark. Reincarnation?

How can you not make the tie between Deut 30 and Romans 10? Do you not see Deut 30 is saying the law is the requirement and Romans 10 is saying FAITH is the requirement?

Those were BOTH man's responsibility!
---JackB on 11/16/10


Mans ability to be counted IN the Old Covenant:

Deut 30:11-20

Mans ability to be counted IN the New Covenant:

Romans 10:5-14

---------------

In both covenants we are told NOT to look to for the power to do these things from OUTside of ourselves. We are told that we have the ability already within us and that it is within our grasp.

Just because God requires us to do certain things to be IN his covenant doesnt mean that we are earning our salvation or 'saving ourselves".

Even after we've done all that is required of us we still dont DESERVE anything. That is why its called grace.
---JackB on 11/16/10


Kathr, if you are not a child of God then you will not understand anything that is from Scripture. Only His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. No one else hears. You don't believe my statements because you do not believe Jesus is God. Otherwise you would have known the Truth.

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folloy to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned"

---Mark_V. on 11/16/10


God has his Master Plan, declaring the end from the beginning. Predestination is fated-theodicy, each soul chooses for themself whether they want to be blessed or damned, we choose either to do good or to do evil and according to our free choice will depend upon which predestined reward we will receive. The incorrect definition of predestination is to say that mankind has no free will in whether or not they become saved. But predestination in the Biblical sense means, God predestined from the beginning that those whom freely choose righteousness will be blessed and dwell in heaven for all eternity, and likewise God has predestined from the beginning that those whom freely choose sinuousness will be cursed and suffer in hell for all eternity.
---Eloy on 11/16/10




Kathr, I will post it again,
Kathr, no matter how you twist the stories and try to conbine passages or what stories you tell, all are bogus. You are trying to make something out of nothing. The Bible no where speaks that those under 20 were saved. Nor were they lost. And the one's that died, no where does it say they were saved or if they were lost, only that they died before going into the land. The one's that did, might have gotten into the new land, but not one Scripture indicates they were saved because they went into the promise land. What it does say is that they went into the promise land. In fact, all of Israel was saved, not for salvation, but from the bondage of slavery imposed by Pharaoh.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/10


(2) Did Jesus come to save the "saved" or the "lost"?
A. Jesus came to save His children who were lost.


---Mark_V. on 11/16/10

WOOOW wait just one minute. Jesus Children??? Before the foundation of the world Jesus had children? NO WAY!

The only way one becomes a CHILD OF GOD, not a child of Jesus, is to be born again.

Where is any scripture telling us we are Jesus children??? He may call us the Bride, bone of His bone, his brothers/sisters, but NEVER His Children!

This gets more and more cultish !

No Calvinist I know says we are Jesus Children.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/10


MarkV: You seem to be having difficulty answering my four simple questions, so I'll try just one at a time to see if you can handle that.

(1) Were YOU personally chosen for salvation (rather than being lost) before the creation of the world?
---jerry6593 on 11/16/10


Galatians 4:28 identifies us with Isaac, vs Ishmael. Children of Promise, Supernatural birth, for US Born Again of teh Spirit, Begotten sons through Jesus Christ.

Jacob and Esau, neither was a child of PROMISE or supernatural birth as Isaac was, and Paul NEVER teaches YOU are identified with Jacob.


If you want to be identified with Jacob, go ahead, However I am Identified with Isaac.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/10


Online searches don't bring revelation from God. God cannot be found out by searching. He can be known only as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word.
Nor is God known by the intellect, "God is Spirit" and therefore can only be known spiritually. But fallen man is not spiritual, he is carnal. He is dead to all that is spiritual.
Unless he is born again, supernaturally brought from death unto life, miraculously translated out of darkness into the light, he cannot even see the things of God (John 3:3) still less apprehend them (1 Cor. 2:14). The Holy Spirit has to shine in our hearts in order to give us "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 4:6).
---Mark_V. on 11/16/10




Jerry, I answered you but not posted by the mod. again:
MarkV: I note that you have left many questions below unanswered. Here again are a few of mine:

(1) Were YOU chosen for salvation (rather than being lost) before the creation of the world?
A. I was chosen to be save before the creation of the world, so were you if you are indeed saved.

(2) Did Jesus come to save the "saved" or the "lost"?
A. Jesus came to save His children who were lost.

(3) How could Jesus save you if you weren't "lost" previously?
A. I was lost when I was born of the flesh.

(4) If Jesus doesn't save you, aren't YOU "LOST"?
A. If Jesus doesn't save you, you are not one of the Elect.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/10


Why debate these matters? Living a christian life is a 24/7 lifestlye. If one would just do what christ has taught, this debate would not matter one iota. Do an online KJV bible search for "one another," "each other," "comfort," and "encourag" and not worry your souls in such matters. Life is way too short.
---Steveng on 11/15/10


"ALL true believers are consider to be in the blood line of Abraham" - Richard

Abraham had two "offices" - he was the patriarch of the nation Israel through the blood line in the flesh. The other is he was "father of faith", born of the Spirit. Not everyone in the blood line (Israel) of Abraham received the Spirit of God. And only those born of the Spirit of God is a believer, who is now known as a Christian.

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God." (Romans 2:28,29)
---christan on 11/15/10


Call it what you will, God declares and predesdtin the end from the beginning. thwe whole bible says it...

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
---Steven-rem7000 on 11/15/10


shawnmt,

Romans 9:7..in ISAAC shall thy seed be called.

Galatians also follow this thought. The SEED is Christ.

All truths come in 2's or 3's. Yet, no where other than Romans 9 is JACOB even mentioned concerning teh CHURCH. Not mentioned in Galatians, yet Isaac is.

Jacob is ISRAEL only, and God's Promises to ELECT Israel. You are not Israel anymore than Isaac was.

Isaac was born by SUPERNATURAL means, Jacob and Esau were not.'

God did not HATE Ishmael.

Can't you see your inconsistancies? If God ELECTS according to LOVE/HATE We would see,

Abel I loved Cain I hated,
Isaac I loved, Ishmael I hated
Jacob I loved, Esau I hated

BUT WE DON'T.
---kathr4453 on 11/15/10


JackB, Purpose of MarkVs Election.
The Salem Witch Trials. Hummm!
Fact: these were Calvinist Puritans=ALL ELECT.
Fact: The ELECT were accusing other ELECT of being witches, and having the power to cast demon possession on/and IN other ELECT Calvinists.
Can the ELECT cast demonic spells and can the ELECT be demon possessed? Because actually looking at both sided, they were ALL demon possessed werent they?. So one group of Elect attacks another group of elect.
ALL sounds demonic to me. But heres another clincher. Can THE ELECT, regardless of what side you found yourself on here, cast demonic spells, or be the victim of someones demonic spell? Remember, these were ALL ELECT people. I know Christians cant, but the Elect can?
---kathr4453 on 11/15/10


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-- Kathr :

How can you a Gentile be Elect before you were born? --Kathr4453 on 11/11/10

Sister, Rom. 9:6 Clearly states that they are not all Israel, which are of Israel... pointing to those Gentile (which goes without saying) are clearly not of Israel, but still part of the Promised Elect as is Israel.

... and Rom. 9:8,11 continues to share that the children of the Promise are counted for the Seed... being not yet born, that the Purpose of God according to Election might stand, not of works, but of Him that Calleth.



--- JackB :

Brother, The PURPOSE of the election is to reveal those according to God's Calling who shall be Saved.

Grace Unto You Both & Peace Be Multiplied
---Shawn.M.T on 11/15/10


this is not so hard to understand. We are all predestined before the foundation of the world. God knew Adam & Eve would sin and he made provisions for fallen man. All I need to convince me is the old faithful...John 3:16. "whosoever". That means every single person in the World.
---shira3877 on 11/15/10


ALL true believers are consider to be in the blood line of Abraham

ROMANS 4:16 THEREFORE it is of faith,that it might be by grace:to the end the promise might be sure TO ALL THE SEED: to that only which is of the law, BUT TO THAT IS OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM: WHO IS THE FATHER OF US ALL
---RICHARD on 11/15/10


Brother MarkV in Christ... remember Genesis 2:17, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." and what did the serpent say to Eve?

Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

The very same attack is happening here... "there's no such thing as free-will... yes, God gave mankind the free-will to choose." It's Eden all over again.
---christan on 11/15/10


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Let's reas teh summary of Deut 30!

DEUTERONOMY 30: 19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


So MarkV, are you in the Land promised to Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and that would be...California/or Utah??? The USA?

Again I ask YOU, are YOU a Mormon?
---kathr4453 on 11/15/10


JackB, MarkV quotes scripture he doesn't understand. I pointed out our circumcision is explained in Colossians 2, and our salvation is one soul at a time upon PERSONAL conviction and personal receiving of Christ, for WHOSOEVER WILL, which now includes Gentiles, MarkV fails to see in Colossians 2 that the LAW/STATUTES and ORDINANCES stated in Deuteronomy 30 are for US, the CHURCH, nailed to the CROSS.

MarkV insists he is under the Law /statutes/ordinances AND Grace at the same time? He says I don't know anything! Really.!

Markv can't answer any legitimate questions/yours or mine, but instead attacks and insults our spiritual intelligence!

MarkV already stated his son is not saved. Does Deut 30 apply to him? NO!
---kathr4453 on 11/15/10


//Remember Paul addressing a chapter or 2 before YOU MARKV are a gentile, and were WITHOUT HOPE...But through God's Covenant with Abraham YOU NOW HAVE HOPE...therefore how can YOU a Gentile be elect before you were born??? //
---kathr4453 on 11/11/10

I would love to hear a response to this...

It goes along with the question that I asked (which was ignored)

What is the PURPOSE of the election? (Romans 9:11)
---JackB on 11/15/10


MarkV, Flistered????

I understand more than you think!!!

MarkV, it is you who cannot understand the differences between Covenants.

This Covenant promise is to the Nation Israel, and THEIR offspring.

JUst to prove it, YOUR OFFSPRING's heart is not circumcied..period.

We do not INHERIT salvation through our parents. PERIOD!!

I didn't ask you because I didn't know, I asked you to make you THINK THROUGH and assess if in fact YOUR OFFSPRING inherited Your New Covenant promise??
---kathr4453 on 11/15/10


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Kathr, you continue to ask such questions because you do not even understand what a circumcise heart is. Study the New Covenant. If you want to explain something give scripture, because giving your opinion without Scripture I cannot understand what you are trying to say since you mix many parts together. Because when your wrong on one area, makes you wrong in all the others. Like a wave, though you are asking a little more kindly this days.
---Mark_V. on 11/15/10


Markv part 2

The scripture you used..circmcise heart/offspring, comes out of Deuteronomy 30, and that promise given the Nation Israel was for obeying Moses 10 commandments/ordinances/statutes. It included the LAND etc.

Yet that promise did not mean God promised ETERNAL LIFE to them or their offspring for obeying.

So why do you use this ( EARNING YOUR SALVATION) verses, having NOTHING to do with Jesus/the Cross/ the,fall of Adam and consequences with being SAVED BY Grace/a gift/not of yourselves etc.

---kathr4453 on 11/14/10


Isaiah 46 - 10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" 11 "Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."

John 6 - 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."
Where is "free-will" taught by the Scriptures, more importantly by Christ?
---christan on 11/14/10


"And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, "so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live"
Everyone needs for their hearts to be circumcise in order not only to have Spiritual life but to love the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 11/1

Here we go again. MarkV, my understanding is YOUR offspring does not have a circumcised heart correct. Didn't you say he was lost?

SOOO, how does that apply again to ELECTION?


Cornelius was not SAVED but was seeking God. God sent Peter to share the Gospel and upon hearing BELIEVED. Cornelius was NOT already saved with a circumcised heart!
---kathr4453 on 11/12/10


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I think, talking about predestination is simply it leads only into confusion. Think this, In the beginning Satan was condemn to suffer in hell, And I think hell was only a place prepare to Satan but Satan don't want to be condemn alone so he tried to persuade people to be lost but Why is that God send his Disciples, the answer is that, to teach the word of God for them to repent from their sin and save. I know sinners have chance to repent and be save if they heartily want change not by destiny that they will be save. It's their choice,And God does not intended people to go to hell.
---Israel_Gil on 11/13/10


MarkV: I note that you have left many questions below unanswered. Here again are a few of mine:

(1) Were YOU chosen for salvation (rather than being lost) before the creation of the world?

(2) Did Jesus come to save the "saved" or the "lost"?

(3) How could Jesus save you if you weren't "lost" previously?

(4) If Jesus doesn't save you, aren't YOU "LOST"?
---jerry6593 on 11/13/10


It is said,

"Has not God put the ability to seek within all of us?"

Not on everyone lost and believers. Only believers seek after God. Unbelievers do not seek God. The lost are under sin, ( Romans 3:11 ). The lost are guilty because what they do, they do it out of their own will. Anything without faith is sin. They cannot originate the love of God in their hearts.
"And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, "so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live"
Everyone needs for their hearts to be circumcise in order not only to have Spiritual life but to love the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 11/12/10


Joseph-
to this I agree.-//"Is one correct?" Both are correct."Free will is independent choice." The Father granted to man that privilege."I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,[that]I have set before you life and death,blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.""Predestination is the state of being predestined, foreordain or predetermine."The foreknowledge of the Father is the determining factor for/of predestination.As it is written,"For whom he did 'foreknow'(to have knowledge before hand,[as to the choice that would be made is implied]he also did 'predestinate' (prooriz- to predetermine or decide beforehand)[to be]conformed to the image of his Son'."-joseph on 11/7/10//
---char on 11/11/10


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God incorporates all knowlege into his plan.
Choices we make have no effect whatsoever on God's sovreignty nor any of His characteristics.
God knows our decisions on every matter and already has them in His plan for the future.
He has given us the ability to freely choose right and wrong, good and evil, life and death.
Yet, what about being slave to sin?
What about our inability to come to God on our own?
Didn't He break down the partition?
Doesn't the Word say we are all without excuse?
Has not God put the ability to seek within all of us?
Doesn't He draw us? Doesn't He reveal Himself to those who seek?
We must reconcile ALL scripture for all is true.
---micha9344 on 11/11/10


MarkV, here is what i'm saying. WHY do you always use scripture concerning our BEHAVIOR ( saved vs unsaved) etc, and use those scriptures to try to prove election. That's like comparing apples to oranges. It don't hunt!

Paul in Ephesians 4 is not talking about ELECTION!!!

Nor is he in 1st Cor 2 or anywhere else in those OT scriptures you use too!

We LEARN of Christ NOW, because He is in us( after we receive Him) ...not because we are elect!.

Remember Paul addressing a chapter or 2 before YOU MARKV are a gentile, and were WITHOUT HOPE...But through God's Covenant with Abraham YOU NOW HAVE HOPE...therefore how can YOU a Gentile be elect before you were born???
---kathr4453 on 11/11/10


Mark ... It all depends on what you meaan by fore-ordained.

You appear to say that God planned the greatest sin in history.

How can it be a sin if God planned it?
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/11/10


MarkV,

What is the PURPOSE of the election?
---JackB on 11/10/10


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MarkV: A few questions for you:

(1) Were YOU chosen for salvation (rather than being lost) before the creation of the world?

(2) Did Jesus come to save the "saved" or the "lost"?

(3) How could Jesus save you if you weren't "lost" previously?

(4) If Jesus doesn't save you, aren't YOU "LOST"?
---jerry6593 on 11/11/10


Kathr, I'm not making a case for "depravity" for ignorance is not only in the lost but also in believers. The reason I used it. The lost are not only ignorant but also very much depraved of anything that is of God for they are spiritually death.

Eph. 4:18 makes it clear who's ignorance God is talking about, the ignorance of the lost. "The Bible calls those "Ignorant" "Having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them,"
The believers are not alienated from the life of God, but are ignorant of many of the things of God that they do not yet belief.
---Mark_V. on 11/11/10


...God does not contradict, He speaks the Truth but ...
those with their own natural mind cannot understand so they try to build a case against His Word. The Bible calls those "Ignorant" "Having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them," ( Eph. 4:18).
---Mark_V. on 11/10/10

Now you appear to have found the prophets??
The rest of your statement seems to be written about MarkV. With your own pencil tongue you have turned the flashlight on yourself. Is the above an admission?
Accepted. You should pause while you are ahead at what you've established above.
---Trav on 11/11/10


MARKV, many people are ignorant,...UNLEARNED..and ignorant does not mean depraved or forordained ignorant.''

Paul also tells Christian Gentiles not to be IGNORANT of God's plan for the Nation Israel. Romans 11. Yet we see many who are!

So if you want to make a case using the word IGNORANT as God choosing by His own will your ignorance /lostness, then why then in another verse, don't be ignorant.

Ephesians 4:20 did you fail to read, hoping to prey on our ignorance???
---kathr4453 on 11/10/10


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Many things are said against the will of God even when they read the very words of God. It is said,

"If you mean it was ordained by God, you have spoken a contradiction. Or does God sin?"
There is no contradiction or sin with God. "For of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didnst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel" foreordained to come to pass." (Acts 4:27,28) God ordained that all events happen to His Son. He did not make them sin, He allowed for them to do their own evil against Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/10


God's ordaination 2:
We are also told,
"Him being delievered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hands of lawless men did crucify and slay" ( Acts 2:23).
For
"The things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled" (Acts 3:18).
God does not contradict, He speaks the Truth but those with their own natural mind cannot understand so they try to build a case against His Word. The Bible calls those "Ignorant" "Having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them," ( Eph. 4:18).
---Mark_V. on 11/10/10


How many of you want to be saved, today? Raise your hand. How many don't care if they go to hell, raise your hand..Only a fool cares not if he ends up in hell, Only a fool says in his heart there is no God, only a fool Cares not for his own soul, infact, he hates his very own soul. No one in their right mind want to go to hell. Are you in your right mind, today? Are you a fool, today? Or are you one of the very few, saved?
---catherine on 11/10/10


God predestined man to have FREE WILL, free Choice.!

Just think about that. If those who believe NO FREE WILL actually SIN after salvation, your saying God gave you a free will to sin only after you are saved?? Otherwise if no free will..you would become instantly SINLESS perfection here. God doesn't WILL anyone to SIN!!!

Yet you make excuses...oh we CAN'T HELP IT!!!

really, Why, because you have a free will to sin and can freely ask for forgiveness?

Now no one can free will themselves to the moon and back.

We can't will ourselves to become invisible!
---kathr4453 on 11/10/10


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God gave us free will thus we are predestined to spending eternity in either Heaven or hell.
---JIM on 11/10/10


Steveng: "Anyone can become a christian and live a godly life, but not all are chosen to carry on the missionary work of God."

Not so. Peter says to "to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia"

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
---jerry6593 on 11/10/10


Anyone can become a christian and live a godly life, but not all are chosen to carry on the missionary work of God.
---Steveng on 11/9/10


//All are the elect, chosen from the foundation of the world.//
---Mark_V

Why do you insist on leaving out the "IN HIM" part?

We are ONLY Gods elect if we are IN CHRIST! He is the elect. He is the object of the promise made to Abraham in the everlasting convenant. All nations are blessed thru Him.

You are putting election before faith which suggests there was some reason OTHER THAN the righteousness of Jesus Christ that God chose us to be conformed to his image.

That is not scriptural and it shows favoritism and partiality with God. That is why the Bible tells us to make our calling and election sure! 2 Peter 1:10,11

Without faith it is impossible to please him...
---JackB on 11/9/10


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"that the most sinful event in all history was foreordained:

If you mean it was ordained by God, you have spoken a contradiction. Or does God sin?
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/9/10


Joseph, thank you for your explanation of Election. I tried to convey that fact to a sister but was opposed right away. Paul is also quit clear in Eph. 2:11-16 that believing Jews were "once Gentiles" aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, but now in Christ Jesus, Jews and Gentiles have become one. For "there is neither Jew or Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28). There is an Israel after the flesh ( 1 Cor. 10:18)
And there is an "Israel of God" the Spiritual Israel, made up of Jewish people and Gentiles who believe in the Messiah, (Gal. 6:16). All are the elect, chosen from the foundation of the world.
---Mark_V. on 11/9/10


Jack I fully agree that the elect refers to the "Israel of God", as the Father representatives in a lost world, (Gal. 6:16). Israel means "he shall be a prince of God", and has nothing to do with nationality. Could I be incorrect? Of course, to say I know all, is to acknowledge that I know nothing at all as I should:o)
I will share this, and I am done. The word elect or election "Ekloge" in the original language used, is defined as selection, chosen, from the word "Eklegomai" to choose, make choice, choose out. The Church, as the called of God, consisting of all "ethnic groups", are the called and chosen. Who's origin is the Father, supported and secured, by the Son. Rev. 17:14>1 Pet. 1:1,2
---joseph on 11/9/10


James L, your right. The gospel went first to Israel, yet from the foundation of the world it was ordained that it would then go to the Gentiles. The order of things had to happen the way God ordained it.

Christian, those passages more then many others clearly speak not in parables, that the most sinful event in all history was foreordained: (they, (Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and the people of Israel) did what "Thy hand and Thy counsel foreordained to come to pass" Acts 4:27, 28. Concerning Christ, all things had to be foreordained by God' control. "The things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled" Acts 3:18.
---Mark_V. on 11/9/10


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Christian 2: Every single event concerning Christ from His birth to His death was foreordained. His whole ministry, every single person who He spoke to, had to be there for Him to speak to. Nothing is by chance or fate with God. Not only the crucifixion itself was foreordained, but many of the attending events such as, the parting of Christ's garments and the casting of lots for His vesture (Ps.22:18, John 19"24), the giving of gall and vinegar to drink ( Matt. 27:34, John 19:29), the mockery on the part of the people (Ps. 22:6-8, Matt. 27:39), the fact that they associated Him with thieves (Is. 53:12, Matt. 27:38), that none of His bones were to be broken (Ps. 34:20, John 19:36), the spear thrust Him (Zech. 12:10, John 19:34-37).
---Mark_V. on 11/9/10


Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
2Sam 24:12 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three [things], choose thee one of them, that I may [do it] unto thee.
Prov 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Isa 7:14-15 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign, Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Isaiah 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant,
---micha9344 on 11/8/10


JackB is on the money. Election in Romans 9 is an inheritance which Christ will share with the fellow elect (Heb 2:5-10, Gal 3). In Romans 10 & 11 it's called "salvation" (also Hebrews 1:14). Israel rejected the inheritance when they rejected their Messiah. So, Gentiles were grafted in. To say that Gentiles were finally offered heaven after Christ died is abusive to scripture. Chapter 9 says those who were foreknown (recipients of the inheritance) were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, which is suffering. Romans 8:17 says we are joint heirs with Christ IF WE SUFFER WITH HIM. Read Matthew chapter 10 and 2Timothy 2:10-21 to get a better symmetry of wording.

Like JackB says, check it out
---James_L on 11/8/10


//"The ELECT is Christ and the Jews to whom that covenant was made!" JackB on 11/7// And you speak of "OPINION":o)//

Its written all throughout the Old Testament. Go check it out. Do a simple word search on "elect" and see to whom it is referring to.

And ty for the correction on the Jews thing. I should have said Israelites. My mistake on using the wrong word.
---JackB on 11/8/10


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Petey

another way to look at it is this Satan sinned and God now uses him as His club. Job is clear that God allows nothing to happen with out ok another GOD thing I cant wrap around my simple skull


Good to see you again little bro

Ad Maiorem Gloriam Dei!

thats for you Petey believe it or not you do.
---willow on 11/8/10


Free-will opposes predestination and vice-versa. One glorifies the man and the other only God.

Jesus Christ is the greatest support of the doctrine of predestination. Christ was prophesied in the OT, of how He will come and how He will die (eg. Isaiah 53).

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God..." (Acts 2:23), "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27,28)

These verses confirms predestination and crushes free-will.
---christan on 11/8/10


Mike How are ya Brother, I like keeping it simple too so I'll continue on this thread.

God can't break his own commands can he?

No, that would of course be completely hypocritical, so I ask you how can a God who commands us to treat everyone the same way be partial and favor one above another for a reason that doesn't even yet exist?

Further the testimony of Jesus in Matthew 5:48 shows God in a totally different light. Here again our God commands our love to be perfected toward all men, not just those we're common with, not just those who we enjoy, it rains on the crops of the righteous and the wicked.
---Pharisee on 11/8/10


"The election talked about in Romans 9 has to do with the Israelites!"

Again a denial that the election of God was only for Israel. Only the Word of God is Truth. After Paul explained the story of Isaac, (for the children not yet born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand" He goes on to say "Is there unrighteousness with God?" then explains God has mercy on whomever He will have mercy on," knowing they will argue about God's right to elect some and not others, He concludes with, "He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentile's?"
Gentiles are also of the elect.
---Mark_V. on 11/8/10


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"The ELECT is Christ and the Jews to whom that covenant was made!" JackB on 11/7// And you speak of "OPINION":o)
"Jews" did not exist when the covenant to Abraham was made.
The 'natural' house of Israel is made up of all the offsprings of Jacob, which of course includes Judah, however the children of Judah are not set apart exclusively as "the elect".
The Elect is Jesus, as Saviour, and 'all' chosen of the Father to receive salvation through Him. Nationally has nothing to do with that.
If foreknowledge of choice, whether His or man's, is not the implication, and you know that to be fact. Tell me Jack, what is?
---joseph on 11/7/10


"(as to the choice that would be made is implied].." joseph
"Once again we're back to this. Did you notice where the OPINION came in?" JackB
There is no opinion in that statement.
Speaking of Jesus. "Behold My servant, whom I have 'chosen', Mine elect". Mat.12:18>Isa 42:1
Speaking of His Called. "For Jacob My servant's sake, and 'Israel Mine elect', I have even called you by your name.
Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have 'chosen': Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah. Behold, I have refined you, but not with silver, I have 'chosen' you in the furnace of affliction." Isa 45:4>44:1>48:1
---joseph on 11/8/10


I don't see where predestination can apply negatively it makes the world into a puppet show and God holds all the strings.

I'm not denying that a lot of language exists in the bible to suggest it could be so, or even flat out assert the conclusion that God predisposes people to evil. But the scriptures from beginning to end show that people's actions create consequences.

God created Satan and allows him to tempt the people of the world, so in that way YES, God can harden someone's heart, in that way Yes, God creates evil, but these are as I said, stated over simplistically, and almost to the point of blasphemy, for we know that God tempts no man, the scripture says that plainly. Good to see you're still here, God Bless you!
---Pharisee on 11/7/10


Pete

its is simple I don't understand predestination it is beyond my limited finite mind to even begin to figure Gods Mind.
how is it simple? the bible says it is true and by faith I accept it.
---willow on 11/7/10


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Pharisee ... good to see you back!

You say Predestination means "God will have his own people and his plans for them won't fail at any cost"

But what exactly does that mean?

What about the individual. What does predestination mean for him?
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/7/10


The election talked about in Romans 9 has to do with the Israelites! Abrahams natural seed are those of Jacob (not Esau). This election was a promise from God to Abraham (the only covenant without a sacrifice I might add because Jesus WAS that sacrifice) and to his seed. All nations are simply blessed THRU that promise. Jesus Christ is Abraham's seed. (of the tribe of Judah). Read your Bibles. The ELECT is Christ and the Jews to whom that covenant was made!

Noone outside of that promise is "ELECT"!

How do we become the elect?

Go read it! Galatians 3:26-29
---JackB on 11/7/10


Great Job here guys, you nailed it down fast, I wasn't even trying :)
Some picked up on that.
It is true that predestination is confused for foreknowledge. It's also true that the scriptures are written into a transliteration, it cannot be translated word for word from Greek to English. So we have this simplified language describing very complicated things. The harmony of one verse to the rest of the Bible has to be taken into account to fully and properly decipher what's being said in passages like Romans 9 for example. The greater message of the passage is lost if we make it into a teaching on predestination, in short what's being said is that God will have his own people and his plans for them won't fail at any cost.
---Pharisee on 11/7/10


//For whom he did 'foreknow', (to have knowledge before hand, [as to the choice that would be made is implied]//

Once again we're back to this. Did you notice where the OPINION came in?

(to have knowledge before hand, (as to the choice that would be made is implied]..

This is where people get into trouble. If God means something in his holy word, hes not gonna have to IMPLY it. He will flat out SAY it.

He is not the author of confusion.
---JackB on 11/7/10


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I want to make it clear: Those who are predestined can not fall. Predestination means, "To decide upon beforehand" [Romans 8, Eph. 1]. Free will: God created Adam and Eve with freedom to choose for or against Him. They chose to rebelled against God, and the results were disastrous evils. However, Adam and Eve would not have been truly free without the ability to disobey God....God rules in three areas: Creation, Human History, and Redemption. God+++possesses all power and is the ruler of all things. Don't be confused, Satan is the [god of this world]. But, the true God, Jesus Christ is the ruler over all....Free will and predestination are not the same.
---catherine on 11/7/10


"Is one correct?" Both are correct.
"Free will is independent choice." The Father granted to man that privilege.
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life."
"Predestination is the state of being predestined, foreordain or predetermine."
The foreknowledge of the Father is the determining factor for/of predestination.
As it is written, "For whom he did 'foreknow', (to have knowledge before hand, [as to the choice that would be made is implied] he also did 'predestinate' (prooriz- to predetermine or decide beforehand) '[to be] conformed to the image of his Son'."
---joseph on 11/7/10


2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

According to Peter, it is God's plan that every single one of us should repent and ultimately be saved. The concept that some people were preselected by God to perish is anti-biblical.
---jerry6593 on 11/7/10


pharisee,

char alluded to the same thing in another blog. i totally agree with the paradoxical nature of spiritual things.

paradox is meant to be. this shows our total need for Godliness that we cannot understand in our own power.

paradox in the Word is the winnowing fork that will ensure perfect sifting.
---aka on 11/6/10


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"Does not the Potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:21) A potter chooses what to do with each lump of clay. Then the potter also controls every detail of what becomes of the clay. And there is hands-on constant contact, very intimate, with every pottery piece lovingly made by the potter. But the uses might not be so fortunate for certain vessels.

So - - - we are all made "from the same lump", as Osama bin Laden, those pedophile priests, our Apostle Paul, and Mary, etc. So, who am I to boast that I am any better than anyone else? And . . . love each person as one who has a free will . . . not controlling or bossing anyone (1 Peter 5:3) (c:
---Bill on 11/6/10


Everyone has free will

not everyone is predestined (called by God to know truth) Eze 37, 1Corin 1:26

religious deception teaches predestined as an "elite only" group who will be the ONLY one's reigning with Christ - a false teaching 2Pet3:9

Biblical predestination teaches God calls those to HIS TRUTH Matt 13:10-13 ...predestined to be called to knowledge of HIS Truth in their physical life

not everyone is called in this life 1Pet 4:17, Luke 12:47 ...a life of overcoming world, god of this world, and self ...to be in the world yet separate from its systems and traditions Rev 2:26

only people being judged by God NOW are the ones HE has predestined (called) to HIS truth (knowledge)
---Rhonda on 11/6/10


Pharisee: "Both are true"

That sounds awfully close to the duality of Eastern Mysticism - Yin and Yang.

I believe that the predestination doctrine arises from a misinterpretation of scripture whereby the Creator's foreknowlege of the future and His desire that ALL His children choose to follow Him is misconstrued as an almost arbitrary selection of some for life and some for death.

P.S. Algebra teaches that 1 + (-1) = 0, not some other number.
---jerry6593 on 11/6/10


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