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Is There Eternal Security

How can someone deny eternal security? " John 10:28-And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

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 ---mima on 11/9/10
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Mercy:
We are the OBJECT of Gods Mercy. We are the OBJECT of His LOVE. Mercy is forgiveness SHOWN to us . If Jesus had not died for my sin, and there was no other way for salvation then to BEG God for mercy, that would be one thing. However, when God so Loved the world He gave His only Begotten Son, that whoso ever believeth in Him will not perish but have eternal life being the only PROVISION for Gods mercy, I believe and receive. If I do not believe Christ became sin for me, then I guess I would be begging for mercy.
We dont BEG to be forgiven, or to be saved. We thank God in Christ we CAN BE.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


2 Cor 5:17-19
When Christ died 2 thousand years ago all our sin was still in the future. He paid for all sin, for all men, for all time. God is not imputing (charging to one's account) sin to anyone today. We are not saved by getting rid of our sin but by belief of the truth of the gospel which is "Christ died FOR our sins, was buried and rose again the third day".

We just need to accept what he has done'
---michael_e on 11/29/10


Mima, the way you deny eternal security is to deny an eternal God.
This is done foolishly everyday.
---larry on 11/29/10


Amen Kath!

Welcome to the club, Shelle. I have been accused of being Math, JackB and all of us each other. LOL, It is laughable really. MarkV just does not understand how God can put the same thing in 3, now 4, people over the internet, is just not fathomable for him, it seems. Anyway, I agree Kath. as usual great teaching sis!
---ginger on 11/29/10


Kathr, great job of welcoming yourself to support yourself. Very good trick. Maybe your split personality will do better then you.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/10




Welcome Shelle,

Oh don't mind markv, he accuses anyone with REASON, of being me or JackB or who ever uses scriptural common sense here.

It's actually a compliment I'm beginning to enjoy.

Not only that, your posts are MARVELOUS!!!

Because markv cannot answer your question, his only OUT here is to throw up a smoke screen tamtrum and accuse.

you'll see this often from markv.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


Kathr, there you go again changing your name now to shelle. Nothing works anymore for you. I can see the same writings and the same support for you from you again. Nice trick. Don't be ashame to have your theology wrong. Be glad someone is telling you, you are wrong. And it doesn't matter what name you use, I know it is you.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/10


My point exactly, leej. However, when a man states that he knows God and others do not and then, in the same breath says he does not now have eternal life but only the promise of it, how can he have any knowledge of God since eternal life, by its very definition, is knowing God and Jesus Christ? I wasn't denying the truth, I was merely pointing out the inconsistency of one who claims to know God but does not yet possess eternal life.
---Shelle on 11/29/10


shelle //but have only a promise of receiving eternal life later.

Is that what scripture tells us?

John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

"have" is in the present tense, not future tense, meaning eternal life is a present possesssion.

Also those who are saved bear the seal of God's Spirit as a down payment or guarantee of our inheritance. Eph. 1:13-14:4:30
---leej on 11/29/10


donna66, the Blog question here is on John Chapter 10. You will also see, if you read John chapter 10 OTHER SHEEP as well.

Jesus first came to the Lost sheep of ISRAEL.

He came to FIND HIS lost sheep. His LOST Sheep are those scattered in Israel who believed in Him even before He came. If David were alive when Jesus came, but scattered AKA Lost, not lost eternally, David who said in the OT, The LORD IS MY SHEPHERD, would be one.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10




Mark, you say:

1) I know God
2) God has promised to give me eternal life

Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

You claim to know God now where others do not, but have only a promise of receiving eternal life later. If you do not yet have eternal life, how can you say you know God now and others do not? If you do not already have eternal life (only a promise of getting it in the future), then you cannot know God and your doctrine cannot be coming from a knowledge of Him as you claim.

You either have eternal life now and are knowing Him or you have only a promise of eternal life later and do not know Him. You cannot scripturally have one without the other.
---Shelle on 11/29/10


The problem with the fatalistic approach of Calvanism is it places predestination BEFORE faith in Christ instead of after coming to Him by faith.

The whole "dead" argument is just a desperate attempt to justify this belief. The Prodigal Son was "dead" (Luke 15:24) and yet "came to himself". It shows he still had to ability to reason and knew he needed to repent and return to his father's house. His father saw him coming and met him half way.

Its as the word says ... the predestination is IN CHRIST. It is to receive the adoption of sons, be comformed to Christs image and receive all the rights that a son of God has.

NO SINFUL MAN has that outside of Jesus Christ. You're twisting Gods word.
---JackB on 11/28/10


Kathr, You said,
" you begged God to have mercy on you. When I questioned whether you then were working for your salvation, you replied to alan that you did that because you did not know you were the elect, or if you were the elect."
I begged God for mercy when I was convicted by the Spirit that I had sinned against God and needed His forgiveness. At that time, I didn't know what election was, or who were of the elect. When I came seeking for Christ to help me, I already knew and believed that He was the only One who could help me. I had faith in Him and remorseful that I had rebelled against God, so I ask for forgiveness and begged for mercy. And guess what? He not only forgive me, He promise to give me eternal life.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/10


Kathr 2: I continue to answer you, even though you make up things suggesting we say things we never say. You try so hard to reject the Scriptures given to you, and purposely change the meaning of them in order to reconcile what you believe. I still believe there is hope because I always believe in hope, not in you but in Christ. Not that you will change, but that God will change you. I'm not suggesting that you are not saved, but what you have said about salvation is so wrong. You come before Christ with no faith, or repentance, before you commit your life to Christ. That makes your salvation worthless. You not only have to be alive to Christ, but you have to have faith and be convicted by the Spirit in order to commit your life to Christ.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/10


kath4453--//But YOU are those OTHER sheep, that Jesus said who come to HIM will he in no wise cast out.//

What "other sheep" are you talking about?
I don't understand. Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.. Nothing here about two kinds of sheep.
---Donna66 on 11/29/10


MarkV: What's an "ioda"?

"Dead people don't speak."

Great! You finally agree with the Bible:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing
---jerry6593 on 11/29/10


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Kath4453//This is what you rudely told me.
//John 17 CLEARLY state Jesus Prayed for HIS BODY who are those He said are IN HIM, and will be GLORIFIED in Him.//

I do not recall saying that to you.

John 17:20 summarized is the prayer of Jesus that those that SHALL BELIEVE on me thru the ministry of the disciples may be one in Him.

It is like other scriptures speaks of Christ as the giver of eternal life.

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

I fail to see anything in that chapter that you would find disagreement with.
---leej on 11/28/10


Kathr4453
//Leej, as as I just told michael_e, NO ONE was already IN CHRIST before He went to calvary,//

This is what you rudely told me.
//John 17 CLEARLY state Jesus Prayed for HIS BODY who are those He said are IN HIM, and will be GLORIFIED in Him.//

Which is it, did He say ARE IN HIM or NOT IN HIM UNTIL AFTER THE CROSS?
---michael_e on 11/28/10


MarkV, I am beginning to understand your insecutities. If I remember, you stated you begged God to have mercy on you. When I questioned whether you then were working for your salvation, you replied to alan that you did that because you did not know you were the elect, or if you were the elect.

So is our faith to be placed in whether or not we are the elect, or our faith in Christ's sacrifice for sin whether we do or don't know of any elect to begin with. Is your only hope of Glory that you are the elect, or that you are forgiven?

You say "Oh but only the elect are forgiven" So is that WHY you begged for mercy? Did God then change His mind about you after you begged..thereby making you one of His elect?
---kathr4453 on 11/28/10


Leej, as as I just told michael_e, NO ONE was already IN CHRIST before He went to calvary, but Christ in John 17 praying for those who God gave Him, that is His apostles, but those who believe on Him through Their words...you and me.

That would be anyone today in this age of Grace who believe and have placed their faith in Jesus Christ where Christ is buiding His church, are members of his Body..the Church.

you were not In Christ from eternity past. Jesus makes that clear..YOU have two births, one of water...your earthly birth, and THEN your spiritual Birth, that in Christ AFTER you believe.
---kathr4453 on 11/28/10


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Kathr, God is not working hard drawing pictures. What He ordained is complete before Him. Nothing will change from what is present before Him. Not one ioda.
You see Kathr, you committed your life to Christ without having faith and repentance, and then expected to get them after your commitment. It was a false commitment you made. You had to have faith before, and remorse for your rebellion against Him. That only comes as a gift of God to those who are alive to Christ. What you have done is made a commitment to Christ and then expect to get faith, repentance and be brought to life after the commitment. So you were speaking to God while dead. No one speaks to God while dead. They are dead spiritually. Dead people don't speak.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/10


leej, part 2 please print.

I believe God predestined, or planned before the foundation of the world, to take out of this world, man whom He first created out of clay, knowing man would sin, to a place and final state of Holiness, being totally blameless before Him and that can only come about through the new birth.

And anyone who is still in their claymation old adam fallen existance, can receive Jesus Christ so they may TOO as you also did, have this Hope Of glory with Christ, a New creature in the New Creation, predestined to be conformed to His Image, leaving this old one behind.

This is the message of the Gospel to all. This is what predestination means THIS is what God for-ordained.
---kathr4453 on 11/28/10


Yes, Kath4453, I believe MarkV will agree with that only those in Christ have been predestined to be adopted according to the purpose and good pleasure of His will.

Eph. 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

By definition: predestinated -

1. foreordained: decided in advance
---leej on 11/27/10


To Arminians and Calvinists: Why both are wrong:

Hebrews 6:4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Scripture teaches the drawing and enlightening of the Holy Spirit does NOT result in the New Birth.
How important then to understand the DRAWING of the Holy Spirit CAN be resisted, as well as blasphemed.
However once Born Again of the spirit, one can never fall away!
---kathr4453 on 11/27/10


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John chapter 10 IS Hebrews Chapter 10.

Jesus said I AM the DOOR of the Sheep.

ONLY those who have entered in through the correct DOOR, hear His voice.

Anyone who states they entered through first, is a theif and robber.

Christ ENTERED through first, and IS that door we to enter in, through the veil, that is to say His flesh.

Our soul is anchored BEHIND the veil. Hebrews

Hebrews 6:19
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil,

Knock Knock, who's there behind the veil?

Hebrews 9:3
And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all, And God Almighty! Abba Father, there you are...

---kathr4453 on 11/27/10


Jesus answered, and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent" It is the work of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/27/10

Of coarse it is MarkV, and from the beginning of Genesis, GOD has worked hard to draw pictures. He drew pictures with cain and abel, patterened the tabernacle after things in heaven, and much more.

But YOU are those OTHER sheep, that Jesus said who come to HIM will he in no wise cast out.

Even the 3 wise man ,who came from all over, not Jews, came to Christ's Birth. THEY knew who He was. HOW did they know.

For SCRIPTURE foretold of that day! They were NOT born again first.

They followed a STAR. Was it not fortold in scripture about that star?
---kathr4453 on 11/27/10


Kathr, again you contradict scripture by changing the meaning of a passage to make it your own. You said,
"Those who claim God saves you first and then turns you over to Jesus , is not found in scripture. No one can COME to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH His Son."
I do not believe anyone said that God saves you first then turns you to God. What is said is that God the Holy Spirit brings you to life first, giving you the ability to not only repent but also to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ through His Word. Only those who believe will receive Christ.
"Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" John 6:65,

---Mark_V. on 11/27/10


Kathr 2: the verse before,
"For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him"
Only those who believed would be those that the Father granted to Him. In another passage the same is said,
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" John 6:37. Kathr, but you do not believe "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you, My sheep hear my voice, and I give them eternal life, and they shall never persish" John 10:26,27.
"Jesus answered, and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent" It is the work of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/27/10


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3.John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Here we have Jesus the one who says HE does the drawing. Why is that?


B4 Calvary God drew man to Christ. As we see in John 6, thousands came to Christ.

ONLY those who come to the Cross, to be set free from SIN are given to Christ by the Father, as was promised Him( Christ and His Bride) before the foundation of the world. i DON'T ARGUE THAT,

But that does not mean God PICKED out certain people to be saved.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
---kathr4453 on 11/26/10


John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 6:44 (Jesus said) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


The initiative (the first cause) is of the Father, but the believer can only go to the Father thru the son after the Father has drawn him or her to the Son.
---leej on 11/26/10


2Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Luk 8:13-14 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
1Jo 2:19b but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
---micha9344 on 11/26/10


You are correct leej, i am not a TULIP Girl, flower child or a fan of Boy George.

My Garden is far more vast than a TULIP Garden, I walk through the garden alone, where the dew is still on the roses, where THE VOICE I HEAR, falling on MY EAR,...

And that voice AIN't John Calvin or Ellen White!

Do you know all the words to that song? Look it up!

Another Garden we all ( those saved I mean) come to is the Garden of Gethsemane. NO TULIPs there either.

Calvin can't help you there either!
---kathr4453 on 11/26/10


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26.Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore He((Christ)) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.



John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Sorry, leej, scripture says otherwise.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/10


/Those who claim God saves you first and then turns you over to Jesus , is not found in scripture. No one can COME to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH His Son.

I believe Scripture says exactly the opposite.

John 6:44 (Jesus said) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Salvation is not our initiative but is simply one of God Himself as salvation is strictly in accordance to His sovereign will.

I know that you are not a TULIP girl but Scripture is quite plain in these areas.
---leej on 11/26/10


Those who claim God saves you first and then turns you over to Jesus , is not found in scripture. No one can COME to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH His Son.

Hebrews 7:23, the verse before verse 24 state that JESUS is the guarantee/SURITY of our Salvation. These are LEGAL terms.

Those who come to God THROUGH CHRIST / through the Cross , can never lose their salvation. There is NO guarantee for anyone coming any other way. You can only be Born Again, Born of the Spirit of the LIFE of the risen Christ, when you first COME THROUGH CHRIST , who brings you TO the Father.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/10


Through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ there is a LEGAL binding contract that God has promised:

hERE IS THAT promise!

26.Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore He((Christ)) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.


Here we have a group ALSO that Jesus saves and promises to save to the UTTERMOST that COME TO GOD by Him.


---kathr4453 on 11/25/10


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//The Bible no where teaches that a person can leave his spiritual birth and go back to been dead in sin again.
---Mark_V
//

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, AFTER they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit AGAIN, and the sow that was WASHED to her wallowing in the mire
---JackB on 11/25/10


The Bible gives two reasons why people are going to hell, one, that all are born with a sinful nature, separated from God, and already condemned to hell. They sin because they are sinners. All descendants of Adam are in that condition. And since all of them are heading that way, they are in great need of a Savior. Jesus Christ. Second, Many continue their path because they reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.
Once a person is born of the Spirit, He will remain born of the Spirit forever. Once his debt to God is paid by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, it is paid for all time. The Bible no where teaches that a person can leave his spiritual birth and go back to been dead in sin again. It is a one time deal.
---Mark_V. on 11/25/10


1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Luke 15:29 And he answering said to [his] father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
---micha9344 on 11/25/10


We arent working for our salvation but FAITH and the OBJECT OF THAT FAITH is the crux of salvation, not how good we are at following Gods laws as Christians.

I do believe, however, that sin can weigh so heavily on a Christians conscience and the guilt be so overwhelming that he can shipwreck his faith. The bible even specifically mentions this in 1st Timothy.

As the parable of the prodigal son teaches we can come to our senses and return to our Father and He will meet us half way with open arms, forgiving and restoring us.

But the Bible does seems to teach that backsliders are in deep trouble if they are caught that way when Christ returns. (Matt 24:45-51)
---JackB on 11/24/10


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For eternal security In God Is without flirting with the devil & his worldly pleasures.

When Man - made ministers say smoking, social drinks etc has nothing to do it, they ARE deceiving you.

God says here, 1st. John 2 v's 15 - 16.

The devil always says otherwise.
---Lawrence on 11/24/10


Consider this question. After salvation is there a sin that a person can commit that has not been paid for?? What say ye?
---mima on 11/24/10


We are dead to the LAW totally. I do not use the LAW to show me God's will. Romans 12: 1-2 state this is how I will know God's will.

I beceech ye therefore brethrenby the mercies of God that you present yourselves a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God which is our reasonable service, and be not conformed to this world, but be ye TRANSFORMED by the RENEWING of your mind that you may know the perfect will of God.

No such beceesching would need to be said, if we keep going back to the law..it keeps one earthbound...

Again, that is what Paul meant..Crucified to the world and the world to me...

The New creature is in no way under the Law for any reason!
---kathr4453 on 11/24/10


leej, My understanding is that is Roformed Theology. The Presb. and PCA I know use that. It'a actually very religious and poious, but there in NO CROSS mentioned.

MY confession of/STATEMENT OF faith is: THE CROSS, and that ALONE is my point of referance, from the day I was saved until the Lord brings me home or COMES and I meet Him in the clouds.

Colossians 3:1-4 is my statement of faith.
---kathr4453 on 11/24/10


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Westminster Confession of Faith XIX.V "Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned,(Rom. 6:14) yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others, in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God. and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly(Rom. 7:12), discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives(Rom. 7:7), so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin(James 1:23), together with a clearer sign of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience.(Gal. 3,24)"

Agree or disagree?
---leej on 11/23/10


francis, I believe today we say this:

Galatians 6:14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

You know francis, the power of the Cross is more powerful than what the Energizer Bunny said: It just keeps going and going.

The CROSS Never looses it's power in our life.
---kathr4453 on 11/23/10


Agree leej and in Galatians Paul so holds on to the CROSS, and the Power of the Cross as to his way of life NOW after salvation and Re-iterates again in Galaians 2:20 and 21, that our life NOW is crucified with Christ...we do not make VOID the Grace of God, for if righeousness comes by keeping the law Christ died in vain.

He wasn't talking about our initial salvation, but our life after salvation..the LIFE we NOW LIVE in the flesh.
---kathr4453 on 11/23/10


kathr4453 on 11/23/10
When was it ever a burden to do gods will or his laws? Everyone faithful in the bible finds DELIGHT in His laws.

Psalms 1:2 But his DELIGHT is in the law of the LORD, and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psalms 40:8 I DELIGHT to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psalms 119:47 And I will DELIGHT myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.
Isaiah 58:13 call the sabbath a DELIGHT, the holy of the LORD, honourable,

IF GOD SAYS IT IS A DELIGHT, AND DAVID, A MAN AFTER GODS OWN HEART CALLS IT A BELIGHT, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THOSE WHO WOLD FIND IT A BURDEN?

Psalms 119:70 Their heart is as fat as grease, but I DELIGHT in thy law.
---francis on 11/23/10


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Love and Law have different motivations. A person motivated by love does not need to be told to behave in a loving way, but a person motivated by law does. (Tkach, "speaking of life" 11-19-10).

And that I believe is a problem with our Adventists friends and other legalists who are motivated by the law. Paul speaks of such in his epistle to the Galatians.

"And that because of false brethren (the old Sabbath keeping circumcision party) unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:..."
---leej on 11/23/10


Donna66, what you said is so true,
"
//If we were Saved on the basis of our own efforts, instead of Christ's sacrifice freely given, I think we would all lose our Salvation very quickly."

That is a real fact going on right now. Many who look like they are falling away and leaving are really those who believe they are saved by their works. There are many of those around. I believe that there is many because they have believed a salvation really base on their own works, out of their own free will they say, and make sure to say, "God cannot interfer or He is not loving." Then when they leave, it is again by their own free will.
---Mark_V. on 11/23/10


The law says thou shall NOT, The Spirit says Thou Shall.
---kathr4453 on 11/23/10
Oh dear, someone will have a hay day with that.

No francis, i don't mean thou shall kill and lie and steal etc.

I mean we DELIGHT to do God's will. It'n not a burden to delight in!Why, because Christ IN US delighted to do God's will. That wasn't keeping the Law, that was laying down His life.

1st Peter 4 will explain HOW God deals with sin in our life TODAY, compared to OT Yestersay.
---kathr4453 on 11/23/10


AMEN leej,

So many want to go under the beggerly old way of keeping their sinful flesh in check, by keeping their flesh under the Law. However the Law of Moses was never meant to keep OUR SPIRIT, or the spirit of the Life of Christ in us in check. Christ in us need no LAW to keep Himself in check. The POWER of teh CROSS alone keeps our flesh in check, i mean dead to sin, and alive to God through Christ.

God wants FRUIT in our life. NO Law can produce fruit. No Law brings LIFE. These stay under law to avoid suffering, Gal 3!!

It's the fellowship of His sufferings that produce FRUIT in us. The law says thou shall NOT, The Spirit says Thou Shall.
---kathr4453 on 11/23/10


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//I cannot die and rise again for my own sin, therefoore I cannot sve myself.

Yes, Jesus is our Savior indeed as we cannot save ourselves even by our own works.

It is interesting that Paul rebukes the Corinthians for having in their fellowship one who had his father's wife. (1 Cor. 5:1) He recommended that such a person be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the body, that his spirit may be saved on the day of resurrection. So our works do count but not toward our eternal salvation.

And if there is hope for such a person, there is hope for our Adventists friends who strive after righteousness in order to merit their own salvation.
---leej on 11/22/10


We are Justified by HIS BLOOD, not ours,

and SAVED by HIS LIFE, His risen life in us, His risen life is eternal and can never die again..once was enough. It's because we receive HIS ETERNAL RISEN life in us that we have eternal life.

I cannot die and rise again for my own sin, therefoore I cannot sve myself.

However I CAN Choose LIFE, His LIFE to save me!
---kathr4453 on 11/22/10


//If we were Saved on the basis of our own efforts, instead of Christ's sacrifice freely given, I think we would all lose our Salvation very quickly.
---Donna66 on 11/11/10 //

worth repeating
---michael_e on 11/15/10


How about, Donna, "the Blood that Jesus shed for us". [an horrific death] It is the Blood which will get you to heaven. We are saved by His Blood. [brings about the new-birth]. Without His Blood we would all be DAMMED.
---catherine on 11/12/10


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hey Cluny & Rueben, you have nothing to worry about when it comes to your eternal security.

If one who has been sleeping with his mother can be saved, then what can you say about yourselves?

1 Cor. 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his fathers wife....In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
---leej on 11/12/10


If we were Saved on the basis of our own efforts, instead of Christ's sacrifice freely given, I think we would all lose our Salvation very quickly.
---Donna66 on 11/11/10


Salvation is purely the work (grace) of God alone. "God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:9), "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." (2 Thessalonians 5:24) - by ELECTION!

And when God calls the sinful man, this is eternal security - "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:37-39)
---christan on 11/11/10


Our whole intimate relationship with Christ is by faith in God's Word. The promises for eternal security are all by faith in what God has promised to all His children. We were saved from the foundation of the world, we are save now, and will be save from the wrath to come. Just because we are saved later from the wrath to come does not mean we are not saved now. We are Justified by faith alone now. The power of justification is God's Grace Romans 1:5.

Romans 4:16 tells us "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to Grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham"
We are required to make our salvation sure.
---Mark_V. on 11/11/10


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Rom 4:5 Eph 2:8 2 Tim 1:9 Titus 3:5 Gal 3:3
We are NOT saved by our good works i.e. trying to stop sin in our lives.
We HAVE BEEN saved by grace (the provision of God) through faith (believing what God says).

If we are unable to save ourselves are we foolish enough to think we could keep ourselves? God has provide a better way, he has provided himself for us.
---michael_e on 11/10/10


I am saved by the Blood of the Crucified One. Blood bought. If we had to wait to get to heaven to be saved, then all the wicked would go to heaven. That is the opposite of what God says. Glory, I am saved now and have been since 1952.
---shira3877 on 11/10/10


\\But you're not actually saved until you get to heaven\\
I have to disagree Cluny Eph.1: 13 says, and you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are Gods possessionto the praise of his glory.
---JIM on 11/10/10


Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

1Pet 1:3-5 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-- kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power." until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time(xref Eph 1:14)

1John 5:4 "for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith."
---Donna66 on 11/9/10


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\\As a...person who uses the sinner's prayer to get others to commit to God I am astounded that some would call the sinner's prayer unbiblical. The will sinners prayer is referred to in the following statement. Romans 10:13 ," For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Failure to see this reference by inference is ridiculous!!\\
---mima on 11/9/10

Mima, you are off the mark. First, committing to God doesn't amount to a hill of beans for justification. That comes through believing the gospel. Second, Rom 10:13 is NOT espousing a sinner's prayer. Read verse 20. Does it contradict v13? God does NOT HEAR SINNERS (John 9:31). Sinner's prayer is anti-gospel as it gives someone something to "do"
---James_L on 11/9/10


--- Ruben :

This is a continuous action by the sheep and by the Shepherd-- Ruben 11/9/10

Brother, John 10:27 is a 'Continuous Action', but you've selectively forgotten that "continuous" means NEVER stopping.

Hence the next verse of John 10:28 "I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."... b/c as you stated earlier, this is a continuous action by both sheep & Shepherd !!!
---Shawn.M.T on 11/9/10

But the sheep can get lost on his journey as the parable of the lost sheep tell us.(LK 15:1-7) And those of us who keep hearing and following the Shepherd are the ones "who endures to the end will be saved"(Mt 10:21-22)
---Ruben on 11/9/10


Brother, John 10:27 is a 'Continuous Action', but you've selectively forgotten that "continuous" means NEVER stopping.
Shawn.M.T

But you can stop:

My kids will 'continuous' get bad grades if they do not do their homework.

My yard will 'continuous' grow like wild flower " if I do not cut it.

I will 'continuous' get wet if I do not open up my umbrella.

If we choose to not hear his voice or follow him we will stop doing both...
---Ruben on 11/9/10


\\If you are saying, you cannot lose your salvation, then you are wrong!\\

Oh, you can't lose your salvation.

But you're not actually saved until you get to heaven.

There's a BIG deal of difference between being saved as the Bible teaches, and a mere conversion experience.
---Cluny on 11/9/10


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Well, I quote this Scripture a lot, yes, I do! Predestination it's in the Bible, a lot of Scriptures. If you have been chosen through God's Blood "No man can pluck you out of Jesus' hand, because my Father gave you to Me". One of the sweetest passages in the Bible. Lets try and get into the heart of God. I have learned also, in studying, that God calls and chooses, He does both for the saved, for the truly saved....If you have not yet been chosen, don't give up hope, maybe you will be the next one, that God chooses For Himself. Amen.
---catherine on 11/9/10


-- Mima :

Brother, Whosoever denies Eternal Security does so solely b/c they lack the Faith which comes for Hearing and Hearing from the Lord.


--- Ruben :

"John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"

This is a continuous action by the sheep and by the Shepherd-- Ruben 11/9/10

Brother, John 10:27 is a 'Continuous Action', but you've selectively forgotten that "continuous" means NEVER stopping.

Hence the next verse of John 10:28 "I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."... b/c as you stated earlier, this is a continuous action by both sheep & Shepherd !!!
---Shawn.M.T on 11/9/10


Eternal security isn't by one act of repentence it comes with taking one day at a time living in the Spirit refusing sin,adhering to Christs example,living a Holy life. Read, Matthew 6:31-34,our focus is to be on God,take no thought for the morrow for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. God supplies our needs on earth. Eternal security isn't forever now it's about living a clean life,walking in the Word of God,living by his will,way,and what he wants. Forgivsness is the doorway to service and obedience,its walking eveyday in faith and love of God and man,a clean record before the Lord so we have nothing to be afraid of nor ashamed of when we are judged. Once we pass the judgement test then comes eternal security.
---Darlene_1 on 11/9/10


Mima,

John 10:28-"And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

the first part of this verse reads: "My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me."

This is a continuous action by the sheep and by the Shepherd not a past tense:

'My sheep keep on hearing my voice, and I keep on knowing them, and they keep on following me: and I keep on giving them eternal life'

You read it as if it says :'My sheep heard my voice, and I knew them, and they followed me, and I gave to them eternal life.'

Baptist theologian Dale Moody was the one who wrote about Jhn 10:27-28, I agree..
---Ruben on 11/9/10


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Mima,

If you are saying, you cannot lose your salvation, then you are wrong!

1 Jhn 2:1-5 :

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments

In jhn 15:5 reads:

" I am the vine, ye are the branches:... If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

And the scripture verse you love to quote Jhn 10:28, you can leave the hand:

Luke 15:11-32 "The younger one said to his father, Father,(God) give me my share of the estate." the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living"
---Ruben on 11/9/10


As a strong believer in a true security and a person who uses the sinner's prayer to get others to commit to God I am astounded that some would call the sinner's prayer unbiblical. The will sinners prayer is referred to in the following statement. Romans 10:13 ," For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Failure to see this reference by inference is ridiculous!!
---mima on 11/9/10


Our security can only be found in Christ, Who is eternal.

However, most people are putting their security in their own former acts of faith, saying the unbiblical sinner's prayer, and the like.

As you see, there's a big difference.
---Cluny on 11/9/10


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