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Martin Luther Opposed Works

Protestants claim Martin Luther identified and opposed a heretical works-based theological system in the Roman Catholic church. How long had the works-based system existed prior to Luther within the RCC?

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 ---AG on 11/9/10
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Not a single Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic in all of their Bible translations knew about the letter J from the 1st Century to the 17th Century.

The letter J is NOT apostolic.


I humbly beseech that all Protestants, the Greek Church, and the universal Church return to the correct Greek use of letter I. Exactly like how the early Christians did.
---Kev on 11/16/10


Mark, no I wasn't sick, far from it, just busy in Europe for two months.

We spent quite a while in the WW1 battlefields, cemetries, and memorials in northern France and Belgium. What a horror it was.
---Warwick on 11/16/10


Mark V

"you will not find at your Church or from the Catholic website. "

The undeniable fact is that many Protestant Historians/Scholars ACTUALLY disagree with you on Martin Luther teachings. One such book entitled "History of the Christian Church" (volume 7, pg 597, pg 550-55, pg 603-628) written by former renowned Protestant Scholar Philip Schaff, agree with my points concerning Martin Luther.

So I am not following any "Catholic/Orthodox" historical books. I am going to Protestant sources.

But again Mark V, I don't expect you to agree with the Truth.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/16/10


Mark V

If you have read writings/books ACTUALLY written by the man himself, you will will see that he did believe in all things I claimed he did. Lutherans today still believed in Baptismal Regeneration, Infant Baptism, etc, because that what the Bible and their founder taught.

But I don't expect you to accept the Truth (because it hurts your version of Protestantism). Good day madam.

"But of course I don't expect you to believe anything because of your foundation which is founded in the Catholic Church."

Orthodoxy is not founded in the Catholic Church. Protestantism CAME OUT of Catholicism. Catholicism CAME OUT of Orthodoxy. Very simple.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/16/10


Iohn Foxe's book, The Actes and Monuments of matters most special and memorable, happenying in the Church, with an Vniuersall history of the same, wherein is set forth at large the whole race and course of the Church, from the primitiue age to these latter tymes of ours, with the bloudy times, horrible troubles, and great persecutions agaynst the true Martyrs of Christ, sought and wrought as well by Heathen Emperours, as nowe lately practised by Romish prelates, especially in this Realme of England and Scotland 1583 publication are my sources concerning the Church history. Not Philip Schaff, or other washed-down books. I am a TRUE Protestant.

I protest that Geneva was the most perfect school of Christ since the days of the Apostles.
---Kev on 11/16/10




"....I'm very thankful to the Lord for what he did with Luther but some of Luther's conclusions and beliefs are totally wrong. " (Mima)

When it comes to Baptismal Regeneration, Infant Baptism, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Martin Luther got it right (the Bible and the Fathers agree). However, like all the early Protestant Reformers, he corrupted the Ancient Faith with man made traditions/dogmas.

Till this day, Protestants as a whole have corrupted the Ancient Faith (you included) and each man made sect does NOT represent Christianity, as believed and practiced by the first generation of Christians. Only Orthodoxy does.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/16/10


"Read his writings (expecially his Catechisms). "

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/15/10

I have read his catechisms, studied them in fact, and I was completely taken aback by what this man believed. I'm very thankful to the Lord for what he did with Luther but some of Luther's conclusions and beliefs are totally wrong. What he thought of the Jews perhaps showed his beliefs to be what they were.
---mima on 11/16/10


\\Are there any Christian groups that rejected Constantine's "blending"?
---AG on 11/15/10\\

No, because Constantine didn't do any blending.

This is a myth taught by extreme sectarians who don't know history and are just barely within the pale of Christianity.
---Cluny on 11/16/10


Warwick, I have not seen your name for a long time. Were you sick?
---Mark_V. on 11/16/10


To be fair Sophia the command to do good works in the NT is not as a means of salvation, rather that which those saved by grace must do. This is what James talks about when he says that faith without works is dead. He wrote against those who claimed to be saved but who had no good works. He said good works are the sign of salvation, not its cause.
---Warwick on 11/16/10




Matthew 26. Did Matthew make all that up?

And Paul did not condemn works. What he was saying was that works alone can't save.

Neither can baptism alone ... if it could, a total unbeliever could be baptised as a social convention, and be saved even if he believed it was all nonsense.

Saved by faith alone ... well, if it were true faith, it would be followed by true generous works, done for the sake of God and others, not for one's own sake.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/16/10


Igantius, I have read many books concerning Luther and you are wrong on many counts. But of course I don't expect you to believe anything because of your foundation which is founded in the Catholic Church. I only expect you to deny anything said about him and what he stood for. "Here I stand" is a great book for you to read by Roland H. Bainton, that will give you information you will not find at your Church or from the Catholic website.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/10


Read the N.T. carefully, especially Christ's own words. If you notice, there is a lot of evidence for works being important. It is really almost entirely a Pauline doctrine or maybe a misconstruing of Paul's teachings that brings with it a condemnation of "works". Many many times Christ taught the importance of how we treat others. His teachings are almost endless about our need to do what is right and that god will judge us by our works, words and even our thoughts. The Book of James and some of Peters writings seem specifically meant to counter the teachings of Paul. Works do not diminish the grace of Christ. Just as I do not value a gift less because it was granted upon conditions that I follow the givers will.
---sophia on 11/15/10


a Roman catholic is not Christian, for they rely upon their ceremonies and rituals rather than upon Jesus Christ, and the mind of religion does not fellowship with the mind of Christ.
---Eloy on 11/15/10


Pharisee (11/11/10) - "Constantine blended Christianity with Paganism in 325..."

OK...does that mean paganism is still blended into Catholicism? Is it also blended into Protestantism?
Are there any Christian groups that rejected Constantine's "blending"?
---AG on 11/15/10


" And of course when he was young he believed in baptismal regeneration, but later when he grew up understood that only through Christ was anyone saved, not by the church, or someone's good works or merits, but by Christ alone." (Mark V)

He believe in Baptismal Regeneration, infant baptism, that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ, given for the forgiveness of sins, and strengthen of faith till his death Mark V. He didn't see a conflict with his so called salvation by faith alone, like most Protestants today. Read his writings (expecially his Catechisms).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/15/10


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\\What you essentially have is a monolithically church that believes it has been given special authority over rank & file Christians. I am happy not to be stuck in that kind of organization but free in Christ to nourish on the truth.
---leej on 11/12/10\\

That's why I'm Orthodox and don't follow latter-day traditions and precepts of men.
---Cluny on 11/15/10


"neither does anyone that believes the Bible is the sole authority for our doctrine." (leeJ)

You and others believe in the extra biblical and anti-biblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Why are you here giving Bible lessons when you believe in traditions of men?

The reason why you do not believe in the biblical salvation plan is because you are not spiritually discerning Scriptures. You follow traditions of men dissed out by your Presbyterian religion, but will not listen to sound Apostolic doctrines. Your Presbyterian "elders" placed their traditions above the word of God.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/15/10


Martin Luther never opposed "works" but the doctrine of "free-will". For in this doctrine lies to mankind that he has to "work" for his own salvation, which is against what Jesus Christ taught and further expounded further by the apostle Paul in his epistles.

Luther was against the doctrine of "free-will" - "For if man has lost his freedom, and is forced to serve sin, and cannot will good, what conclusion can more justly be drawn concerning him, than that he sins and wills evil necessarily? ... the commandments are not given inappropriately or pointlessly, but in order that through them the proud, blind man may learn the plague of his impotence, should he try to do as he is commanded."
---christan on 11/14/10


Martin Luther believed in Justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Period. Any other comments against what he stood for is false. Of course he believed in baptism, just like all other believers do. And of course when he was young he believed in baptismal regeneration, but later when he grew up understood that only through Christ was anyone saved, not by the church, or someone's good works or merits, but by Christ alone. If anyone takes their time and read his Ninety-five Theses they will know what he believed in.
---Mark_V. on 11/15/10


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Cluny //Are you DENYING that St. Paul baptized?

Not at all for scripture states that he did (1 Cor. 1:17f). However, he did not believe it was essential for salvation and neither does anyone that believes the Bible is the sole authority for our doctrine.

What you essentially have is a monolithically church that believes it has been given special authority over rank & file Christians. I am happy not to be stuck in that kind of organization but free in Christ to nourish on the truth.
---leej on 11/12/10


"Jesus didn't think so. In fact there's NOT ONE SINGLE OCCASION where Jesus says be baptized to be saved," (Pharasee)

Read Matthew 28:19, John 3:3-5, and Mark 16:16.

By the way, you told me you was not going post in this blog again. I guess that was one of your many lies. You should repent. You told lies about the Roman Church, and you lied about not coming back in this blog. Wow......

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/12/10


I Corintians 1:17, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."
---Rod4Him on 11/13/10


"As to baptismal regeneration, there is NO EVIDENCE that such causes the believer to become a new creature in Christ." (leej)

If he or she believe, repent, and obey the Gospel as instructed by the Church, then yes, after coming coming to the Holy Front, he or she will live, with the Grace of God, a renew life. And when he or she fall into temptation and sin, the Mystery of Repentance is there.

"I have to agree with mima it is a devilish doctrine, since it deceives one into believing ritual is what saves. "

Again, a misrepresentation. It is not the water or ritual itself that saves. Anywho, I will believe the word of God instead of your Presbyterian religion.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/13/10


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"if you capture some pagan out in the bush someplace and baptize him..... he will not change his behavior...." (leej)

Come on little Leej, you are just being silly. Of course, he will not changed. Was the pagan instructed in the Gospel? Did the pagan attend Divine Liturgy, and other liturgical services prior to His Baptism? Did he prayed, fast, among other things??

Of course, those who think saying a Jesus Prayer will automatically saved one (easy believism), and also believe in OSAS (like Mima), will not changed one bit.

There lies the difference between the biblical salvation plan (which includes Baptism) and the easy believism dished out by many Protestants religions.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/13/10


\\cluny - totally disagree that the Apostle Paul emphasized baptism of believers. He claimed he was not sent for that purpose and firmly believed the gospel message was what counted.\\

Are you DENYING that St. Paul baptized?

Scriptural data refutes you if you do.
---Cluny on 11/12/10


cluny - totally disagree that the Apostle Paul emphasized baptism of believers. He claimed he was not sent for that purpose and firmly believed the gospel message was what counted.

As to baptismal regeneration, there is NO EVIDENCE that such causes the believer to become a new creature in Christ. In other words if you capture some pagan out in the bush someplace and baptize him, you can bet every dollar you will ever earn he will not change his behavior one bit once you turn him loose.

I have to agree with mima it is a devilish doctrine, since it deceives one into believing ritual is what saves.

Such ritual is simply a benefit for the priest/shaman/witchdoctors and used as a means of control over the ignorant.
---leej on 11/12/10


Baptismal regeneration is a devilish doctor. Which following and depending upon will lead one to hell. Particularly damaging is the belief in infant baptism. This belief robs the individual of choice and our participation in accepting the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not just a Lutheran and RCC doctrine but has wormed its way into many denominations. I witness to many people who are confused by this doctrine. Generally speaking those who hold with this doctrine know something is wrong but they are confused as to what. And many told me that they could get no satisfaction from their pastors and/or priest.
---mima on 11/12/10


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Salvation by Faith Alone can be charged with the same.
In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/11/10

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:14-15

Jesus didn't think so. In fact there's NOT ONE SINGLE OCCASION where Jesus says be baptized to be saved, but over and over he says to people "your faith has made you whole." Salvation doesn't come by baptism, never did and never will.
---Pharisee on 11/12/10


\\Cluny - If Baptisimal regeneration were a true doctrine, then why did the Apostle Paul not emphasize baptism?

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.\\

It doesn't say he was sent to preside over the Eucharist, either, yet he gave instructions about it.

The same chapter, as well as passages in Acts, will tell you that St. Paul DID emphasize baptism and baptized quite a few people himself.

However, baptism was normally done by the bishop and presbyters of a given church. This was not St. Paul's primary ministry.

Would you like to try again?
---Cluny on 11/12/10


//Salvation by Faith Alone can be charged with the same.

If salvation by faith alone results in a new creation wrought by the Holy Spirit, then there will be a change in behavior.

Eph. 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

While Biblical Christianity views salvation to be a free gift received by faith, works being the result, those that boast of apostolic succession reject this. But it is simply a matter of control of the church over the laity - the old boot on the neck thing!
---leej on 11/12/10


"[....] I would like the volume and page number if you have it so I can verify.... " (leej)

Volume 2, page 253 and Volume 3, page 480.

When it comes to dogma, yes. Orthodoxy recognize that the Fathers held to personal opinions, often times incorrect (i.e., Saint Gregory of Nyssa held to apokatastasis). However, when the Fathers agreed, there is orthodoxy. Orthodoxy follows the consensus teachings of the Fathers, while Protestantism as whole follow bits and pieces of the Fathers because each sect hold dear to their man-made traditions (Sola Scriptura, private interpretations, etc)..

We can see the agreement of the Fathers chiefly in the first Seven Holy Ecumenical Synods.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/11/10


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"Baptismal regeneration....a priest sprinkles some water on someone effectively that person is gifted with the Holy Spirit and enabled to be saved...." (leej)

According to the Bible, the Fathers and Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther, yes (but not sprinkling). Baptism is NOT a work of men, but of God. Holy Baptism is invalid without the participation of the Holy Spirit, and God used the Bishop/Priest Deacon as a vessel.

"... no evidence to support the view that water baptism places one in the body of Christ"

Try the Bible (Gal 3:27, Col 2:11-13).

"as such does not always change behavior at all. "

Salvation by Faith Alone can be charged with the same.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/11/10


Ignatius//even Protestants scholars such as J.N.D Kelly, Philip Schaff, William Webster, etc, will admit this).

I have the complete 8 volume set of Philip Schaff, History of the Christian church. I would like the volume and page number if you have it so I can verify what you are referencing.

Of course, the assumption that you and others in the Eastern style churches make is that the early church was correct in all their beliefs. While I would use the early father to make a point or two, most Christian hold that they were not infallible and we can easily see that they often have different and diverse viewpoints on some issues. In short, the apostolic succession thing is really without much merit.
---leej on 11/11/10


Baptismal regeneration is the belief that if a priest sprinkles some water on someone effectively that person is gifted with the Holy Spirit and enabled to be saved unto eternal life.

However, where the rubber meets the road, we can find virtually no evidence to support the view that water baptism places one in the body of Christ as such does not always change behavior at all.

Usually those who believe in such a doctrine have only an interpretation and believe strongly in rituals which is really a works soteriology.

It is no wonder the Reformers rejected such beliefs as they held the Bible to be the sole authority not some institutionalized church.
---leej on 11/11/10


Martin Luther was correct in his approach of over emphasising Grace. It was appropiate for a time when the RCC was selling " Indulgences" to fund the Basilica. A time when the RCC was a world power and dominated religously and politically. That is no longer true!
Martin Luther had a disdain for the Book of James. Calling it "The Epistle of Straw".

However, The Lutheran Church never evolved from that time and so sanctification was never emphasised and never taught. The Lutherans need their own Version of "Vatican II".

The fear is further splitting the chruch (LCMS/ELCA). Something the Catholics (to their credit) had overcome.
---John on 11/11/10


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"a mere ritual it puts salvation in the hand of man" (leej)

This is a misreprentation of what the actual doctrine teach. Even Martin Luther will scorn you for saying such a thing.

"whereas it is an act of the Holy Spirit that causes regeneration unto eternal life."

The two are not contradictory. We seen the emphasis on Holy (Water) Baptism throughout Scriptures (John 3:3, Mark 16: 16, Romans 6-7, 1 Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5, Gal 3:26-29, etc). This is the reason Christians from the 1st-8th centuries accepted the Apostolic dogma of Baptismal Regeneration (even Protestants scholars such as J.N.D Kelly, Philip Schaff, William Webster, etc, will admit this).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/11/10


"...Scripture is very plain that it is the gospel that leads to salvation."

The two are not contradictory. One thing leads to the next. According to Scriptures, one hear the Gospel (Rom 10:17), believe the Gospel (Acts 2:38a), repent (ibid, Acts 16:31), obey the Gospel (James 1:22), receive Water Baptism (ibid, Mark 16:16, etc), receive Christmation ("laying on the hands"), and strive to reach theosis, by the Grace of Jesus Christ with the participation of the Mysteries.

All are part of the biblical salvation plan. Salvation isn't based upon a past moment of confession. It is a past event (Ephesians 2:8), an event currently active (Philippians 2:12), and a future event (1 Peter 1:5).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/11/10


//Baptismal regeneration is a TRUE doctrine because it puts salvation in the hand of God,//
I agree with this statement, as Paul wrote "one baptism" the HS placing us or immersing us into the BOC not into a pool of water
---michael_e on 11/11/10


Cluny - If Baptisimal regeneration were a true doctrine, then why did the Apostle Paul not emphasize baptism?

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

It is foolish to believe baptism is what saves when Scripture is very plain that it is the gospel that leads to salvation.

Roman 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

It is easy-believism to accept Christ into one's life or do we need to bend the knee to some priest or observe some ritual?
---leej on 11/11/10


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\\Baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine because as a mere ritual it puts salvation in the hand of man whereas it is an act of the Holy Spirit that causes regeneration unto eternal life.\\

Baptismal regeneration is a TRUE doctrine because it puts salvation in the hand of God, whereas the easy-believism preached by modern Protestant churches degenerates into making salvation depend on dead works such as altar calls and sinner's prayers, and even neo-Pelagianism, where you think yourself saved all by yourself.
---Cluny on 11/11/10


"Ignatius calling me a liar won't make it untrue that the catholic catechism says you're saved by baptism. "

You said the CCC say salvation is based on the observation of the whole seven Sacraments, which a lie. I have also given passages in the CCC saying that one can be saved outside the Roman Church (and without the observation of any of the Sacarments). So who is delusional, but you alone?

"I'm tired of arguing with delusional people, this is my last post. "

Since you can't refute the facts, you are running away.

Please repent from your false witness.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/11/10


//Ignatius calling me a liar won't make it untrue that the catholic catechism says you're saved by baptism.

Many in the early church did indeed believe in baptismal regeneration - that one is born again upon baptism. But this belief was rejected by most of the Reformers as salvation is strictly a gift received by faith (Eph. 2:8) offered to those who God had chosen from the very foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

Baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine because as a mere ritual it puts salvation in the hand of man whereas it is an act of the Holy Spirit that causes regeneration unto eternal life.
---leej on 11/11/10


"I've didn't come to this by any church or preacher, church function, or work of men, none of that is has or ever was required to follow Jesus, only his spirit." (Pharsee)

In the Bible, people began believing in Jesus Christ (and was Baptized, Christmated, and partook of the Eucharist) only after being witness from men (Apostles, Presbyters, Bishops, Deacons). The only exception was Saint Paul.

"Defend the devil's church if ya want, facts don't change"

Again, you bear false witness. I don't defend the RCC, only doctrines which agree with Holy Scriptures and the Fathers. But your Anti-Catholic attitude is showing, which is why you bear false witnesses.

In IC.XC,,
---IGnatius on 11/11/10


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" I got my faith from a SPIRIT that sought me out and confirmed itself in the man Jesus Christ in the Bible,"

You must be one of the special ones, right?. For the rest of us, we heard the Gospel by those who God gave the authority to teach, and was convicted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Then we were baptized, Christmated, and partook of His Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/11/10


\\Ignatius calling me a liar won't make it untrue that the catholic catechism says you're saved by baptism.\\

But you are falsely and erroneously misinterpreting what the CCC actually says.
---Cluny on 11/11/10


Ignatius calling me a liar won't make it untrue that the catholic catechism says you're saved by baptism.

I'm tired of arguing with delusional people, this is my last post. I've proven my point and you still deny it with facts right in front of your face. You start arguing about protestant this and that, I don't represent them so I don't know who you're talking about, it ain't me, I got my faith from a SPIRIT that sought me out and confirmed itself in the man Jesus Christ in the Bible, I'm telling you plainly I KNOW HIM and I've didn't come to this by any church or preacher, church function, or work of men, none of that is has or ever was required to follow Jesus, only his spirit. Defend the devil's church if ya want, facts don't change.
---Pharisee on 11/11/10


"Are there any christian groups prior to Constantine that rejected paganism that still exist today? " (AG)

Yes, Orthodoxy.

FYI, Constantine never accepted paganism. Many historical books point this out (i.e., A Concise History of Christianity: Second Edition by R. Dead Peterson, etc). The idea that Constantine accepted and practice paganism is a myth.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/11/10


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"YES IT DOES
---Pharisee "

No. It does not. I have proven it does not say what you claim it does (in other words "salvation only comes from the observation of the whole seven Sacraments"...).

You have constantly bear false witness against your Catholic Brothers/Sisters in Christ (i.e forbid marriage, Pope is God on Earth, etc). You should repent.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/11/10


\\"Now you expect us to accept that your priest and his little vat of sprinkling water can magically create salvation without God? " (Pharisee)\\

Well, you think that that a little bit of ink and paper can contain the message of God.

But just as the Bible is more than ink and paper, so is baptism more than water.
---Cluny on 11/11/10


\\"The popes are God on earth to them so whatever the old man says goes, they find a way to defend it no matter how harmful or erroneous."\\

Please give ONE example of doctrine promulgated on no other basis than papal authority, and tell us why it harmful or erroneous.
---Cluny on 11/11/10


"I am not Catholic, however, you are bearing false witness against your Catholic brethren. The CCC does not say what you accused it of saying."


"Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ" CCC paragraph 977

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism." CCC paragraph 2020

YES IT DOES
---Pharisee on 11/11/10


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So Cluny, you believe studying the Bible is a dead work? Witnessing by passing out tracts and telling people about Jesus a dead work? Those are actually commanded in the scripture. This from a man who thinks a live work is a cracker and a cup of juice with the same prayer he said last week and the years and years before that, vain repetitions are what Jesus called that. This from a man who accepts a church teaching a different method of salvation then Jesus, a different way to pray then Jesus, (Rosary) a church that exalts a mere woman as a goddess and gives equal status with Jesus. RCC traditions are what's dead, Jesus is alive and can live within you and speak to you. That's real.
---Pharisee on 11/11/10


Baptismal regeneration -FALSE. You can only be born again by the Spirit of God. Nothing else will do, there's no magic cream you can rub on your heart to make it new, there's no water you dribble on your head to change the soul from darkness to light.

There's only the contrition of a broken heart standing before his holiness in awe. When you come to the end of yourself and reach out as a beggar you've finally come to a place where God can work with you. Until then you've not sat still long enough to see him for who he really is because when that happens your heart will break for the louse that are by comparison, if you've never had THAT MOMENT you don't know him and never have. Religion sends you to hell thinking you're saved.
---Pharisee on 11/11/10


"not saved by works" needs defined. The Jews delusionally thought, "as long as I follow the rules and pay my tithe and go to synagogue I am right with God and holier than those who do not." But they still sinned as the nonJews. Paul wrote, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of performings? No, but by the law of obedience. Therefore we conclude that a person is justified by obedience apart from the performings of the law. Or he God of Jews only? and not also of nations? Yes, of nations also: Seeing one God which will justify the circumcision by obedience, and uncircumcision through obedience. The law then do we make anarchy through that obedience? Not let it be! But law we establish." Rm.3:27-31.
---Eloy on 11/11/10


Pharisee - "Constatine blended Christianity with Paganism in 325..."

OK...is paganism still blended into Catholicism? Is it also blended into Protestantism?
Are there any christian groups prior to Constantine that rejected paganism that still exist today?
---AG on 11/11/10


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//How long had the works-based system existed prior to Luther within the RCC?//

It still exists, in the minds of some, just read some of these comments
---michael_e on 11/11/10


"Their doctrines didn't come from one specific council meeting, most of the garbage like purgatory for example has been added....over the centuries." (Pharisee)

This is true. However, I will point out that many Eastern Catholics do not believe in the Latin doctrine of purgatory, and others interpret it differently. In any case, purgatory is simply a erroneous tradition.

"The popes are God on earth to them so whatever the old man says goes, they find a way to defend it no matter how harmful or erroneous."

This is not true. Several Roman Popes in the Early Church were condemned for teaching heretical teachings, and the modern day Catholic belief of Pope's infallibility is VERY limited.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/10/10


another blog good catholic bad catholic. and i will not go much deeper in it but to say that luther was defenately not the first. but he was the first that survived telling the truth. Huss they burned, fransiscus was bribed, and these are only two examples. Marti n was the first to achieve in bringing the word of God back where it belonged, in the hearts of the people. another detail that many ignore the 96 protestations are defenately NOT anti catholic. and the catholics accepted everything what was protested for by martin 200 years later. it was only the greed of a certain pope that caused protestants and catholics to be seperated. to desire for money is the root of many evil.
---andy3996 on 11/11/10


"Now you expect us to accept that your priest and his little vat of sprinkling water can magically create salvation without God? " (Pharisee)

Have thou not read John 5, where a Holy Angel moved a pool of water (physical matter) that bought about healing and Restoration? This is a prefigurement of Christian Holy Baptism. Just like the water was used to bring about regeneration, so do the waters of Baptism bring about regeneration (cf. John 3:3-5) (through the word spoken) by the Holy Spirit.

It is not of men, but of God. Christ used mud (physical matter) to cure a man's blindness (John 9).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/10/10


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Invitation hymns--DEAD WORKS

Altar calls--DEAD WORKS

Sinner's prayers--DEAD WORKS

Passing out tracts--DEAD WORKS

Puppet ministries--DEAD WORKS

Bible studies--DEAD WORKS

Does your church push any of these and similar DEAD WORKS?

There's only one church that doesn't.
---Cluny on 11/10/10


Pharisee-

I am not Catholic, however, you are bearing false witness against your Catholic brethren. The CCC does not say what you accused it of saying.

"....that salvation came by sacramental right of baptism."

The path of salvation includes Holy Baptism (for the forgiveness of sins, rebirth, admission to the Church, etc). This is what the Bible and the Early Christians (1st-8th centuries) taught.

"That's a works based salvation. ."

No, because the Mysteries of the Church are not works of men, but they were instituted by Jesus Christ. Argue with God, not me. Martin Luther believed the same thing, which is why he held to the biblical doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/10/10


"they deny marriage." (Pharisee)

Again, you bear false witness. They do not forbid marriage, but openly praise it. Bishops, Priests, Nuns, Monks, take a vow of celibacy. It is not forced on them. Eastern Catholic Priests are allowed to be married piror to their ordination. Did you know that?

"THEY DO, and it's led to one of the most destructive scandals"

Thousands of Protestant celery (who are allowed to be married, even after ordination) members have been abusing little children for a very long time, perhaps before a Catholic scandal ever surfaced. What's celibacy have to do with it? What is your excuse for the Protestant ugly scandals, most of which were hidden from the public?

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/10/10


AG,

The Roman Church was mostly Orthodox for the first 1,000 years of Church History. While there are instances of Pope's corruption, she was noted for purity of Faith. That being said, Pope Honoorius I held to Monothelitism in the 7th century, and was later condemned.

In any case, after the 6th century, Rome began to slowly corrupt the Apostolic Faith by adding new doctrines (i.e., Filoquism, which was later accepted by Protestants, among others) and was proclaiming a new authority not given by any of the Fathers or the Holy Ecumenical Synods.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/10/10


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Salvation is a spiritual matter, but if you take away all the physical parts of it, you wind up with NO salvation.
---Cluny on 11/10/10

If salvation is a spiritual matter how then are there physical parts to it?
The only physical parts there ever were to it was Jesus being nailed to a cross, and him being raised from the dead.
At Pentecost was there a sprinkling with water that gave them tongues of fire and the gift of the Holy Spirit?
I received the Holy Spirit and the only water that was sprinkling was coming from my eyes...and baptism is a work irrespective of who administers it, it's a human work, and will save NO ONE from hell.
---Pharisee on 11/10/10


AG Constantine blended pagan worship with Christianity in 325, they've been dropping the ball ever since.

Paul prophesied about this church that they would deny marriage. THEY DO, and it's led to one of the most destructive scandals in the history of any ministry. They give clergy everywhere a bad name with their abuse. They won't repent of any of their heresies, and the current pope is the one who swept the pedophilia mess under the rug.

Their doctrines didn't come from one specific council meeting, most of the garbage like purgatory for example has been added by papal bull over the centuries. The popes are God on earth to them so whatever the old man says goes, they find a way to defend it no matter how harmful or erroneous.
---Pharisee on 11/10/10


\\Salvation by baptism not works based?
---Pharisee on 11/9/10\\

Aside from the fact that this is not "baptismal salvation" as you falsely claim, only if you baptized yourself would it be a work.

But you don't. You RECEIVE baptism.

Salvation is a spiritual matter, but if you take away all the physical parts of it, you wind up with NO salvation.
---Cluny on 11/10/10


Pharisee & Elder,
I'm interested in knowing the protestant perspective on how long the RCC officially endorsed the heresies pointed out by Luther prior to his 95 thesis.
In your view which pope was the first to deviate from the apostle's teachings?
---AG on 11/10/10


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We are creatures are created for movement, activity, and works. God commands mankind to do good works, thus how deceived is man to disobey and lie in saying God does not save those whom do good works? Ask Abraham, Yitzhak, and Jacob: ask Henoch, Noah, and Lot: ask Yoseph, Moses, and Yehoshua: ask Samson, David, and Solomon: ask Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: ask Eliyah and Elisha: ask Philip and Paul: ask Iesous, and Ruwach Shiloh, and Eloy if any NonWorks saved them. We all must work to receive the reward of salvation, and if you refuse to obey then God will refuse you. The Lord God commands, "Go and Do my works: and woe, wrath, and condemnation to that one whom Does Not."
---Eloy on 11/10/10


Ignatius Did you read the quotes I posted? Is not Baptism one of your sacraments???

Both of the quotes said the same thing, that salvation came by sacramental right of baptism. That's a works based salvation. In other words, a work on the part of man (666) had to happen for GOD (777) to save someone.

Jesus said "I am the door" and "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me." (if it weren't for the failing of your church to enact Satan's plan I wouldn't even know that, THANK GOD FOR THE REFORMATION) Now you expect us to accept that your priest and his little vat of sprinkling water can magically create salvation without God?
---Pharisee on 11/10/10


I have a booklet in my possession from the RCC that states, "The Holy Eucharist is the shortest and surest way to heaven."
That completely leaves out the sacrifice of Christ and faith in His work.
Then there is the fairy tale that the Church is built on Peter. Confess your sins to a stranger in a box so he can use them against you later or have a candle lit for you after you die. This would only sound right to the confused and tricked.
---Elder on 11/10/10


Salvation By Faith Alone is a Lutheran invention. Luther was self-appointed. You can take him or leave him.
---Juanito on 11/10/10


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"It states plainly in the catechism of the catholic church that salvation is obtained through the observance of the seven sacraments. " (Pharisee)

It doesn't. The CCC does not say Marriage, Holy Orders, or the Anointing of the sick are necessary for salvation.

However, if you are questioning the biblical and Patristic interpretations of Holy Baptism, Holy Eucharist, Christmation, and Reconciliation, all which are part of the salvation path (believed by all Ancient Apostolic Churches in the East), then you do greatly err.

BTW, the CCC does say that one can be saved outside the Roman Church (and without obtaining any of the sacraments)-->#839-856.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/9/10


AG,

Did you know that Martin Luther held to the biblical doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration and held that the Eucharist was indeed the Body and Blood of Christ (in and under the Bread and Wine) and was given for forgiveness of sins, "daily pasture and sustenance, that faith may refresh and strengthen" (The Large Catechism)?

So while Martin Luther believed in the erroneous doctrine of Salvation by Faith (believing) Alone, he did not take the doctrine, as most Protestants today do, as negating Holy Baptism and the Divine Eucharist because He took them as works of God, not men.

Most Protestants don't follow in their forefather footsteps.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/9/10


I have to disagree with the idea that Catholics don't subscribe to a works based theology. It states plainly in the catechism of the catholic church that salvation is obtained through the observance of the seven sacraments.

"Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ" CCC paragraph 977

"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism." CCC paragraph 2020

Salvation by baptism not works based?
---Pharisee on 11/9/10


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