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Explain Revelation Chapter 12

Is Revelation Chapter 12 a real chosen woman representing nations today from God? Does she bare witness to the ruler who will come again?

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 ---nina_mccutcheon on 11/10/10
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The woman in revelation 12, keeps the commandments of God, which would include both Literal israel, and the church, she also has the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Having the testomony of Jesus christ, would remove israel as a possibility of being the woman. Israel has rejected Jesus and His testimony, the church has not.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
---francis on 11/25/10


'But the true Testimony of Jesus Christ is not the ravings of Ellen G. White.'--Cluny on 11/23/10
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.
-end according to their works?..interesting...
---micha9344 on 11/25/10


But the true Testimony of Jesus Christ is not the ravings of Ellen G. White.
---Cluny on 11/23/10

LOL HA HA HA LOL HA HA HA LOL HA HA LOL

oh and HA
---francis on 11/24/10


\\Israel has rejected Jesus and His testimony, the church has not.\\

But the true Testimony of Jesus Christ is not the ravings of Ellen G. White.
---Cluny on 11/23/10


The woman in revelation 12, keeps the commandments of God, which would include both Literal israel, and the church, she also has the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Having the testomony of Jesus christ, would remove israel as a possibility of being the woman. Israel has rejected Jesus and His testimony, the church has not.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
---francis on 11/23/10




The woman is clearly Israel. See josephs dream that he tells his brother in Genesis for a cross reference. The woman in trevail, as this woman is here, about to give birth is troughout the whole of scripture consistantly given as a representation of Israel in the tribulation. The child to be delivered is that 144,000 Jewish witness's that are first fruits, that are Jewish missionaries sent throughout the world to preach the true nature of the one that is antichrist and to prech the true God, Jesus Christ.
---barak on 11/22/10


The woman in Rev. 12 is the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20 and Luke 1:35 show us that God and the Holy Spirit worked together in implanting Jesus into the womb of Mary.

John 3:5 tells us that we also must be born of the Holy Spirit. The whole chapter of John 3 is an excellent study on salvation.

Rev. 12:5 is describing the birth of Jesus Christ and Rev. 12:17 shows us that the same woman who gave birth to Jesus is now giving birth again to the saints "the remnant of her seed who keep the commandments of God and the truth of Jesus."
---barb on 11/22/10


I think the woman is a specific lady who through great pain will bring forth a male child. This I don't think refers to Christ coz there seems no need to refer back to a finished event. The pain she has is reflective of Eve and her curse, quite symbolic of all mankind and also of Zion, pictured so often as a woman in labour. After her exile, with her children abandoned, God will revive her and give her a son who will rule the nations like David's promised son who was to rule the world with an iron rod, the Word of God. I personally feel after much study of this book that this individual could also well be the one in Rev 19, mainly coz of the 'iron rod' reference. Preposterous, but why can't people washed in Christ's blood be that glorious?
---hop on 11/22/10


While many interpret the woman to be the nation of Israel or the church, indeed the woman could be a real singular female that is Christ's representative here on Earth before his return. She may be the only one that holds the key of wisdom to understand this very scripture in fact, given to her only by God of course. As only God holds the keys to the final interpretation of this Revelation, how fascinating it will be to find out the ending that God has planned. What a profound mystery! This woman indeed would have to reflect Christ's true words and Gospel, just as the moon is illuminated in the dark night sky only because the light of the sun shines upon it in the very darkest of hours. Interesting, very interesting indeed.
---Syvannah on 11/19/10


You know, Paul had such a love for lost Israel, he stated,
Romans 9:3
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Moses as well when the children of Israel made a golden calf and God wanted to destroy them:

Exodus 32!

However Jonah ...well..
---kathr4453 on 11/19/10




Allan, you mean the kind of Justice Hitler showed to anyone he felt was beneath him. Not just Jews, but millions who weren't as well.

We all know Hiltler was a monster, but I can't really see the difference between MarkV's god and Hitler himself. Justice or insanity!
---kathr4453 on 11/19/10


Mark ... "If you do not think that they should get justice for rebellion against God, slandering His name, mocking Him, and sinning with imputity, then there is something wrong with you"

Yes of course, if that is what they do by their own freewill, it is just punishment.

But you also say "They were on that road already from their birth, condemned" So they were condemned before they ever started that rebellion. They acted in that way because that was the way God made them.

He gave them no chance to repent. That is your doctrine ... maybe it is the case ... God has the right to do that to anyone ... but don't, please call it justice.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/18/10


Mark_V: "I do not get pleasure knowing they are going to hell, neither does God. But they get what they deserve."

You are talking good from one corner of your mouth and evil from the other corner of your mouth just as any lukewarm christian would do.
---Steveng on 11/18/10


Kev, thank you so much for your support. I know you are not doing it because of who I am, but because of what I write down on behalf of God. I'm encourage and I'm always going to be persecuted for speaking the Truth. I take it with a grain of salt. I do have to pray before I answer because I do not want to answer in the flesh, but with the Truth of Scripture. I do not know everything and I have learned alot from others. They bring some great points when they answer that I never heard before so they also help me. Again Thank you so much for the encouragement. May God richly bless you always.
---Mark_V. on 11/18/10


Lets take a closer look at Martin Luthers remark. Was this CONVERSION he wanted that of being converted to the RCC doctrine? It would appear that WAS what was required in those days. Inquisitions etc. Even true Christians were burned at the stake by the RCC.

I wonder, since that comment was made in Martin's EARLY YEARS..while still a DIE HEARD RCC, and not later years, if he regretted such words?

Being he said it during his early Years, had to do with converting to the RCC and bowing to the pope, not Christ!! Even a Good Jew without Christ knew " Thou shall have NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME!
---kathr4453 on 11/18/10


Nina, The woman in Revelation 12:1 is not the Virgin Mary as many would assume, or some other woman, but she is the Lord's bride, his true church.
Note:
1: She is clothed with the Sun - the glorious light of the gospel.
2: The moon is under her feet - as the moon receives it's light from the sun, so she receives her light from the Son.
3: Upon her head 12 stars - Rev. 1:20 the stars are people - here they represent the 12 apostles.

Of course the child in verse 2 is Christ. Some would say the church didn't exist before Christ's birth: (see Acts 7:38 - speaks of the Church in the wilderness.) Christ came to show us how to worship in Spirit and in truth, and to shed his blood for our sins.

Lord bless each of you.
---trey on 11/17/10


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Thanks for the kindly message.

Here I stand. Martin Luther is a true Christian man. A persecuted Christian also? Yes.

I'm 50 percent German. I admire Martin Luther's Bible translation. Indeed, I cannot even think of a better Bible translation to recommend to another German fellow, than Martin Luther's Bible translation.

Everyone have a nice day. Including Israel.

---Saint_Kev on 11/17/10


Steven G, you said'
"Mark_V: :...they do get what they so deserve." That is definately a very unhealthy christian attitude."
I do not know what you mean by unhelathy, for that does not have anything with health. I look at it this way, those people who reject God do get what they deserve. Justice. If you do not think that they should get justice for rebellion against God, slandering His name, mocking Him, and sinning with imputity, then there is something wrong with you. Then to you, God means nothing and all you do is talk. I do not get pleasure knowing they are going to hell, neither does God. But they get what they deserve. They were on that road already from their birth, condemned.
---Mark_V. on 11/18/10


This was said,
" How can they deserve what they get, when all they have done is behave as God made them behave?"
I do not know if you will ever learn the word of God or not because what you say is so wrong. You have not been listening because you don't want to listen.
God made everyone good. He does not make anyone lost behave as they do. They are all under the sin of Adam. Already condemned. God does not make them sin, they sin out of their own will. All are already heading to hell, unless God, out of His own will and purpose, reaches out and saves them. He could have chosen to save all, or He could have chosen to save none, but He did neither. He chose some and not others. Do you not get it?
---Mark_V. on 11/18/10


What MarkV also fails to see is that Martin believed in FREE WILL and that anyone hearing the Gospel could believe and receive. And with Martin Luther that is where his frustration was...

Thae fact is TOO, John Calvin NEVER made such vicious remarks, and if you care to LOOK, I never accused Calvin of making or having THAT kind of hatred towards Jews.

So again, is MarkV REALLY a Calvinist? No Calvinist I know, and I do know many do not feel that way! Luther/ a catholic never left the RCC, just as MarkV has not either!
---kathr4453 on 11/18/10


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Mark_V: :...they do get what they so deserve."

That is definately a very unhealthy christian attitude. A true christian would not rejoice over someone's misfortune. It just goes to show how your god is different from the God of Abrahma, Isaac, and Jacob.
---Steveng on 11/17/10


Kev, everyone can use that verse, even Mormons...everyone thinks THEY are being persecuted for speaking THEIR TRUTH. However remember Kev, those are MarkV's words, opinions, and Martin Luther's etc, NOT GOD's.

Hitler also had the same attitude. A German TOO! Is he your hero too?

YOU ARE IN COMPLETE DISOBEDIENCE TO ROMANS 11, hIGH MINDED, ARROGANT AND IGNORANT OF GOD'S LOVE FOR ISRAEL..TODAY, YESTERDAY AND TOMORROW.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/10


Nina, the woman is the church and past events.
Some say the text is a reference to the past with 7 horns on 7 hills a reference to Rome (on 7 hills) and the Roman Empire being divided as it was by 10 with days counted to years as 1260 years of church persecution.
The war against the church by Rome was akin to the war in heaven where Satan/Dragon (referenced) was cast down to earth and now runs amok.
The only specific principality of Satan's mentioned by name is in Daniel 10 as Persia, modern Iran and Iraq of which Satan was and is now obviously in total control.
Revelation, Ezekial and Daniel is very interesting and not easily grasp.
---larry on 11/17/10


Mark ... "I do not find anything terrible about it. After trying to convert them (the Jews) to Christianity, and knowing the Truth, and still rejecting Christ, they do get what they so deserve. So does everyone else who rejects Christ. They all get the justice of God, no mercy"

Mark ... where has your Predestination gone? How could they reject Christ and be blamed for it? Your doctrine says that they were not of the Elect, and so they had no choice but to reject Christ. How can they deserve what they get, when all they have done is behave as God made them behave? And you talk about the "justice of God" !!!
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/17/10


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MarkV, I see you've taken a lot of heat. Only remember this verse, Blessed are ye when men reuile you, and persecute you, and say all maner of euil against you for my sake, falsely. Reioyce and be glad, for great is your rewarde in heauen: for so persecuted they the Prophets which were before you. (Matthewe 5:11-12)

I probably will take a lot of heat for saying this too, but here goes: The Protestant Reformer William Tyndale wrote this in The Obedience of a Christian man, ''And because that all the world knoweth that Martin Luther slayeth no man but killeth only with the spiritual sword the word of God such cankered consciences as Rochester hath. Neither persecuteth, but suffereth persecution:''
---Kev on 11/17/10


The Protestant Reformers William Tyndale and Martin Luther were good Christians.

In fact, if I was German and only knew German language, I would definitely read Martin Luther's Bible translation.
---Kev on 11/17/10


Mark_V: "How dare you [Kathr] say that the reformers didn't have any faith. "

One can know a person by their heartfelt writings. Besides, with the help of the reformers, christianity became divided by the creation of denominational churches.

Mark_V: "You would never know what is in their hearts to begin with."

Peter knew the heart of Ananias: "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?" Now, how do you suppose Peter knew what was in the heart of Ananias?
---Steveng on 11/17/10


mima, what a horrible thing for MarkV to say, that MAN has the right to hate and spit on Jews or anyone else who have rejected Jesus Christ..as though THEY WERE GOD!!! Even God does no such thing.

So MarkV, You say God foreordained the Elect and foreordained those to HELL, and also foreordained you to have a hateful, smug, arrogant prideful heart? I don't like your god one bit!

Oh Heavenly Father, please humble the hearts of those who are saved, who also believe for no apparent reason they were picked to be saved, and may their hearts have compassion on those who's names did not get picked out of a hat.

I'm really ashamed of you as a professing christian MarkV!
---kathr4453 on 11/17/10


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Mark V I have read your posts as well as Laura's and kathr's.

I believe they are correct and you are wrong.
---mima on 11/17/10


Laura, you explained that what Luther said was terrible. I do not find anything terrible about it. After trying to convert them to Christianity, and knowing the Truth, and still rejecting Christ, they do get what they so deserve. So does everyone else who rejects Christ. They all get the justice of God, no mercy.
The anti-semitism that the Church held was because they blamed the Jews for the killing of Christ. They blamed all the Jews. It was not because they didn't want to convert. You even mentioned he tried to convert them and they refused.
The Church of Rome was to blame for persecuting the Jews for the wrong reason. Just like Kathr is trying to persecute the Reformers, looking for dirt.
---Mark_V. on 11/17/10


MarkV, It is common knowledge that many reformers were in fact anti-semitic. Faith is BELIEVING GOD. Believing Gods written word. In Gods written word we see Romans 11. Israel, Gods ELECT are precious to HIM. If the reformers actually placed their FAITH in Romans 11, Zech 12-14, Isaiah 14, Exek 36 just to name a few, no such inquisitions, forced conversions or else death etc would have taken place.

I believe all the scriptures above. My Faith is in Gods WORD who says these things( above scriptures) will come to pass. Deut 30 included, to ISRAEL the Nation during the 1000 year reign.
Because YOU DONT believe Gods Word, you LACK FAITH in what God said!
---kathr4453 on 11/15/10


Excuse me Markv, but you are out of line!

After Martin Luther's early efforts to convert Jews to Christianity had failed, he denounced those Jews and wrote, "Know, O adored Christ, and make no mistake that aside from the Devil, you have no enemy more venomous, more desperate, more bitter, than a true Jew who truly seeks to be a Jew." (Cohn-Sherbok 73) Martin's positions in this regard did not break with the long history of Roman Catholic persecution against the Jews. AntiSemitism had long been a tool to artificially increase the power of the papacy, finding a peak around the time of the Crusades.
---Laura on 11/15/10


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Kathr, you make a lot of rediculous statements with no proof of anything. I can also say that you are anti semitic and don't have to proof it either. Does that make it right? Of course no. Every time you say stuff about someone else you have nothing but your own mouth to back you up. How dare you say that the reformers didn't have any faith. You would never know what is in their hearts to begin with. It is you who brings this accusations about others just because the tulip is in your mine day and night and you fight it. All reformers greatest gift was their faith in God alone and not man. Your faith is in man and the proof is in your answers concerning free will. And that is not a lie.
---Mark_V. on 11/13/10


Martin Luther was also anti-semitic, and therefore like many of the reformers lived by sight and not by faith.

But we do see today more and more prophesy being fulfilled concerning Israel. So for 1500 years yes the church was ignorant of many things. But one has to be awfully blind not to see God bringing back Israel to the Land HE promised them, and the future of what they will go through LIRTRALLY .

The Glorified KING is coming and will stand upon the Mount of Olives just as was stated in Acts 1:11.


Matthew 24-25 Zechariah 12-14 and Revelation are all talking about the same time..THE FUTURE!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/11/10


Just so I say this correct. Before Christ came, He was Glorified...he then LEFT GLORY for you and me, humbled himself, and became obedient unto death of a cross. he prayed in john 17, Glorify me with the Glory I HAD with you before the world...

When Jesus rose again, for those 40 days before he ascended he still did not have his GLORIFIED Body. After he ascended we know He did, and Paul also witnessed it by Paul being BLINDED by His Glory on the road to Damascus.

The KING is Coming...to Reign and Rule for 1000 years.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/10


In the OT the Messiah Prophesied, along with John the Baptist announced THE KING, the coming Ruler. However in the OT it clearly states when He comes AS KING, He's coming in Glory.

Israel didn't understand that, saw a carpenters son, born in a manger said, "this can't be Him and crucified Him.

Now this was God's PLAN to begin with, because Jesus first coming, from birth was not in ALL HIS GLORY. He received His Glory when He ascended to heaven After he died and rose from the dead.

WHEN Jesus does come in ALL His Glory called the 2nd coming...the KING will...

Read Matthew 24-25
Zechariah 12-14 just for starters.

This is WHY Revelation is future.The 2nd Coming has not happened yet!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/11/10


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"Revelation is just a garbage text that should never have been included in the canon and if you take the time go back and study the history of the New Testament canonization process it almost did not make it into the New Testament then.

So what is in Chapter 12 does not make any difference any way.
---Blogger9211 on 11/11/10"

Well we can say for certain that trust is not your long suit. My heart goes out to you as you Waller in unbelief.

A Little prayer just for you blogger 9211,
Gracious heavenly father we know that your all-encompassing love includes this person and for that I want to say thank you!!
---mima on 11/11/10


Commentaries describe the woman as the church.
The reading of the chapter(12) have no words of witness of any coming ruler.

The bible is usually stating words that we can hear and believe and it is not in our realm of activity to "guess" what is said.

If we don't know a particular word/verse/chapter or book the safest course is for us to say we don't know rather than answer in error.
---billy on 11/11/10


The book of Revelation is just another example of Apocalyptic Pseudepigrapha. John the Apostle did not write it the quality of the Greek grammar is too poor and the vocabulary is not consistent with that of John. John the Elder was not the author either. The authorship is unknown. Martin Luther knew the text had problems and would not include it in his New Testament but simply put it in back as an attachment. Revelation is just a garbage text that should never have been included in the canon and if you take the time go back and study the history of the New Testament canonization process it almost did not make it into the New Testament then.

So what is in Chapter 12 does not make any difference any way.
---Blogger9211 on 11/11/10


What do you mean by "ruler who will come again"?
---Cluny on 11/10/10


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Revelation 12 is talking about ISRAEL and the ANTICHRIST. Woman = church (modern day Israel if you are in Christ), clothed in sun = clothed in Jesus Christ, 12 stars = 12 tribes of Israel, gave birth to a male child who would rule all the nations with an iron scepter = out of (in) Israel Jesus was born and will come again to rule and reign from Israel. Dragon = AntiChrist (son of Satan), 10 horns = 10 nations of power that will form the NWO, 3rd of stars from sky = 3rd of angels (now demons) that fell from grace and got kicked out of Heaven, devour child from moment of birth = Israel being threatened with being wiped out since foundation.
---Leslie on 11/10/10


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