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USA Founded On Godly Ideas

People both here and elsewhere believe that the United States was founded on Christianity. I can see nothing specifically Christian in our founding documents either quoting or alluding to such, be it Scriptures or from the classical creeds. Any comments?

Moderator - Go to Wall Builders. He has thousands of such documents throughout America's history.

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 ---Cluny on 11/11/10
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\\Faith is the principle.\\

There is nothing in faith that is peculiar to Christianity. Mahometans have faith. Wiccans have faith.

Faith is useless unless in the right object and right kind.

\\Faith in GOD and Christ is more than you are allowing here.\\

Please tell me what I'm allowing. I'm just trying to find out WHAT Christian principles are in our founding.

\\ This faith of the Christian that came here enabled the blessings that u spurn.\\

Please tell me what blessings I'm spurning.

kathr4453, the term Judeo-Christian was alive and well when Fallwell started using it.
---Cluny on 11/20/10


aka, here is the problem I have with the back, it has Mason symbolic symbols. This is NOT Christian. Many of our founding forefathers were in fact Masons. Many puritans were Mason's as well. If one undeerstood what the Masons were all about, you may have a different attitude. It meant BUILDING, just like those who built the tower of Babel.

HEAVEN is our home, not America. Salvation is through Jesus Christ, not the 10 commandments. If Mormons who also keep the 10 commandments with the rest of us are considered a Christian Nation because of it, then Christian is a generic term, not found in scriture.

The MORAL law of right and wrong in in every mans heart. China, without Moses law, punishes for stealing!
---kathr4453 on 11/20/10


Zionism - kathr...i totally agree.

//there is always that chance that people's actions are as moved by the Spirit without their even knowing.//

I totally agree. we are also moved by spirits without even knowing. there is a war inside of all of us when we take on the Spirit because the spirits are already there and they do not want to relinquish their turf. Reference OT stories of going into the promised land. Frank was simply presenting some possibilities and I was presenting others.

Please do not put a halo on the head without looking deeper at the heart. We see the front of a dollar bill that says in a little phrase "in God we trust." Examine the back or the hidden.
---aka on 11/20/10


Is Yahushua (aka Jesus) specifically mentioned in any of the founding documents or located in the halls of justice anywhere in the U.S.?
---AlwaysOn on 11/20/10


If the truth be known the word says only Israel was founded by God for God through the working of God.
If America was a land that men who feared God was led to it has surely been perverted since.
---Frank on 11/20/10




The Judeo_Christian came about because of hatred and persecution of Jews. It started as a movement by Christians concerning JEWS. Our founding forfathers say nothing about that in the constitution.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/10


The Judeo_Christian ethic/principal or what ever was not from the founding fathers. It actualy came about through the ZIONIST movement. Interesting history here is anyone cares to study it.

Jerry Falwell, in His Moral Majority Group, re-invented, and revived the term and the meaning from the original purpose , that now included all faiths as long as they adheared to the Moral principles of 10 commandments. Again , the Mormon Church and other faiths stood with Falwell on this principle.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/10


Cluny--//So help me God" is not required as law, nor may it be. It's merely custom to say so.//

I understand it's not required by law, but that's beside the point. Why did it become a "CUSTOM"? The reason is people liked it that way. Maybe because they they actually believed in God?

Nobody believes the 10 commandments have the force of law by themselves (some laws are based on them). They are valued as part of our "Judeo-Christian" culture (accepted by Jews and Christians). Can you think of any other reason for having them displayed so many places other than the fact that they have special meaning for so many people.?
We do not live in a theocracy.
---Donna66 on 11/20/10


When I posted about the flag I used the words "just maybe" and "possibly" as in that there is always that chance that people's actions are as moved by the Spirit without their even knowing.
It wasn't for a display of who knows the most in earthly matters.
Of course 7 and 6 are 13 colonies. But, those stars increased as new states emerged just as the children of Israel increase as saints labor in the field.
Just as the stars came to a max amount the saints will when the fullness of the Gentiles come in.
By the way, it is the only flag I have seen with every part having a spiritual significance.
And as stated, just maybe...
Nothing more, nothing less.
---Frank on 11/20/10


Benjamin Franklin was not a Christian.
you can give no specifically Christian principles on which American was founded.
---Cluny on 11/17/10
WHAT Christian principles
---Cluny on 11/16/10

Faith is the principle. Faith in GOD and Christ is more than you are allowing here. This faith of the Christian that came here enabled the blessings that u spurn. There are over 73 that Americans all have enjoyed because of who they were and their faith.
Jews are not givers of the Ten Commandments, All Israel was the recipient. GOD gave the comandments.
Ben Franklin was not an Anti-Christ. Ben Franklin believed in GOD and Christ. But,at a deeper level than most Churches/preachers will ever attain.
---Trav on 11/20/10




i never said that the designers of the flag meant the number of man or the 13 stripes or circle of stars were by design.

i was pointing out what other meanings that those symbols are. isn't it amazing that the original designers never spoke of the meanings. all i ever heard was speculation.

there are certain patterns which we are subject to that we do not know about.

if we shut ours, then maybe we will begin to see.
---aka on 11/19/10


Excuse me!

The word should be VEXILLOLOGY, not "vexollogy".
---Cluny on 11/19/10


The 13 stripes obviously refer to the 13 original colonies.

The rules of heraldly, which apply to vexollogy as well, normally require that in the case of pallets (as these are called), one be a tinture (in this case, gules or red) and the other be a metal (in this case, argent or white).

I don't think there was any reference to the 7 days of creation or 6 as the number of man intended.

If you look at the SHIELD of the USA, you will see the barrulets (vertical stripes) are reversed, with 7 argent and 6 gules.
---Cluny on 11/19/10


//And these ambiguous references to some deity are Christians because.......?????
Because the people, nominally Christian, hardly meant some other god.

S. Korea and S. Vietnam both feared Red China, who were allies of their enemies and whom they could not withstand alone. To S. Vietnam, we sent only advisers, but so many were shot, we sent troops for their protection.

The Saudis asked us to intervene when Iraq overtook Kuwait. Many Iraqis wanted the US to help them overthrow their cruel dictator Saddam Husein. We refused...until later there was reason to suspect Iraq was actively aiding terrorists. (They had already used WMDs,gas, against their own people)

Afghanistan was the assumed source of the 9-11 terrorists.
---Donna66 on 11/19/10


7 red stripes: possibly: ...
6 white stripes: possibly...

7 and 6 are individually big numbers in the hidden world. "when the moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter lines with Mars...the is the dawning of the age of aquarias."

6 is the number of man. put three of them togetther...

7+6 is a huge number in secret cirles...did the US begin with 13 states?

turn a 5 pointed star upside down, and what do you get?
---aka on 11/19/10


\\By the way, where is GOD or the judeo-christian principles in the flag and national anthem?
---francis on 11/19/10\\

In the fourth stanza, which contains these lines:

Then conquer we must when our cause is just,
And this be our motto: In God is our trust.

Don't you know it?
---Cluny on 11/19/10


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By the way, where is GOD or the judeo-christian principles in the flag and national anthem?
---francis on 11/19/10


U.S. Flag

Many times people do things as led by the Spirit without intending to.
Just maybe:
Our flag:
7 red stripes: possibly: 7- days, work of God, salvation coming in the form of a rest through the stripes and blood shed of one perfect Lamb.
6 white stripes: possibly: 6 being the number of man: white, righteousness: our righteousness would be in the form of a man that would be righteous before God. His blood would be shed (red stripes) as commanded from his Father above. It would be a righteous work (white stripes).
Stars: children of Abraham: on a field of blue: healing in the blueness of a wound.
Our salvation would be a work in the "field." Saved by the shedding of blood of one righteous man.
---Frank on 11/19/10


\\Were references to God accidental in the Declaration of Independence? The motto on our currency (In God we trust) unintentional? "So help me God" at the end of many oaths of office, added by mistake?\\

And these ambiguous references to some deity are Christians because.......?????

BTW--"So help me God" is not required at law, nor may it be. It's merely custom to say so.

\\Is it mere co-incidence that the most commonly engraved words on courthouses around the land, are the Jewish 10 Commandments?\\

And the Jewish 10 commandments are Christian, of course, even though only three of them have any legal force, as I've said.
---Cluny on 11/19/10


\\I believe the term Judao christian ethic was coined by Jerry Falwell.\\

The term "Judeo-Christian" predates the late Jerry Falwell.

However, the term "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" was coined by one of his closeted speech writers.
---Cluny on 11/19/10


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//...references to God...in the Declaration of Independence?...on our currency (In God we trust) unintentional? "So help me God" at the end of many oaths of office...mistake?//

References to God are ambiguous...if Christian than say Jesus.

No mistake at all:
Mat 5:33-37 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old [in Judaism], 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.' ...But I [Jesus] say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,...Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No', anything more than this comes from evil. accident or Disobedience?

Ten commandments [Judaism] everywhere, 2 greatest commandments [Jesus]?
---aka on 11/18/10


When the pilgrims landed here, the first things that they did was to erect a cross and claim this land for Jesus. Sounds pretty Christian to me!
---Roland on 11/13/10

Exactly, they CLAIMED THEY were God's NEW Chosen People and America was God's NEW promise Land. By who's authority? GOD'S?

God never made a covenant with a Gentile Nation.

Many used that and followed that principle in cleaning heathens off the land,( Native Americans) just as Joshua etc were instructed. WRONG!

Christian means followers of Jesus Christ.I believe the term Judao christian ethic was coined by Jerry Falwell. Even Mormons have a Judao Christian ETHIC!!

Jesus never asked us to Claim any land for Him! He asked us to win souls to Him!
---kathr4453 on 11/19/10


Cluny,
//But WAS the intention Christian?//

Big Sigh......Were references to God accidental in the Declaration of Independence? The motto on our currency (In God we trust) unintentional? "So help me God" at the end of many oaths of office, added by mistake?

Is it mere co-incidence that the most commonly engraved words on courthouses around the land, are the Jewish 10 Commandments?

I don't think so.

And none were initiated by Bhuddists, Hindus, Muslims or Taoists.

No Christian is perfect. Our nation has not always been perfect. But if WE are Christian, our Savior has taught us to forgive and go on.
---Donna66 on 11/18/10


\\Even God, himself is called a "warrier".\\

BCV, please.

\\I would conclude that war is justifiable when it is in self defense and/or when it is to protect the innocent. Therefore, a Christian could rightfully engage in war given those conditions.
---Donna66 on 11/18/10\\

I won't deny your principles expressed here, but please clarify something for me.

How were North Korea, North Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq, or Afghanistan attacking us, Donna66?
---Cluny on 11/18/10


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Cluny-- Jesus never condemned war or rebuked a soldier. Even God, himself is called a "warrier".
We have a Biblical right to self defense, Exodus 22:2: "If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood guiltiness on his account." The Bible also tells us to protect the innocent, Deut. 19:10, "So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, and blood guiltiness be on you." If we were to apply these principles to war, I would conclude that war is justifiable when it is in self defense and/or when it is to protect the innocent. Therefore, a Christian could rightfully engage in war given those conditions.
---Donna66 on 11/18/10


\\The intention was Christian but it didn't DEMAND Christian adherence.\\

But WAS the intention Christian?

That's the question.

**These being the direct words of Jesus, how can a Christian nation go to war, as the USA has done several times?
---Cluny on 11/17/10

Why do you get upset when a person cuts you off in traffic?**

I don't drive, so this question is meaningless, at least if you meant me personally.

My point is that for all the grand verbiage about the USA being founded on Christian principles, ANYTHING that our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ actually said said is more honored in the breach than in the observance in how the nation acts, either in domestic or foreign policy.
---Cluny on 11/18/10


Cluny -- "in God we trust" doesn't NEED to mean the same to all citizens. To the Jew it can mean "the God of Abraham, Isaac and "Jacob" to the trinitarian Christian it can mean "Father Son and Holy Spirit", to the Mason, it can mean "Great Architect of the Universe". The intention was Christian but it didn't DEMAND Christian adherence.

Neither Christians nor Jews ALWAYS practice without some hypocrisy. (Do you?) Repentance is a part of of both religions.
Thomas Jefferson was neither, and we don't know if he repented.

The US is not a theocracy. But Christian or not, we had no need for policies of "enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen."
---Donna66 on 11/18/10


These being the direct words of Jesus, how can a Christian nation go to war, as the USA has done several times?
---Cluny on 11/17/10

Why do you get upset when a person cuts you off in traffic?

It all goes back to the garden and Adam. If it had not been for his fall, we might all be living in the "greatest nation" of Earth, not nations on Earth.

The old expression is "if Ifs and Buts were candy and nuts, we would all have a Merry Christmas". The best advise is to let God answer the Whys.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/18/10


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the founders may have been christians, ( if you consider freemaons christians). But they did not put any part of the bible into the US constitution
---francis on 11/18/10


\\But it makes little difference, because he taught moral standards consistant with Christianity.\\

And he always practiced them, especially in his relationship with Sally Hemmings, right?

\\ In God we trust" was accepted as motto of the US (and nobody thought it referred to "Allah" or "Shiva")\\

And all Jews agreed it meant Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, right?
---Cluny on 11/18/10


''"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen, ..."

From the Treaty of Tripoli 1797, signed by John Adams the second President of the United States and ratified by the Senate--which contained many of the Founding Fathers.

So actually, a pro-mahometan policy is enshrined in the laws of the USA--but again, nothing specifically Christian.

BTW--Adams himself was a Unitarian and rejected the Deity of Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 11/17/10


Cluny -- It's true Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian, but a skeptic, who wrote his own "version" of the Bible. But it makes little difference, because he taught moral standards consistant with Christianity.
It proves nothing that not every single founder was a Christian as we define it. Many WERE Christians (several were deisits, which doesn't mean they objected to Christianity.) " In God we trust" was accepted as motto of the US (and nobody thought it referred to "Allah" or "Shiva")
---Donna66 on 11/17/10


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And it reads: ..."Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, Covenant and Combine ourselves together into a Civil Body Politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid..."
---Eloy on 11/13/10

Nice job Eloy, that just about covers it. But was we know from Romans 1, evidence is never the issue but instead the willful suppression of the truth.
---larry on 11/17/10


\\Secularlists are still trying to convince us the 10 commandments are not on the Supreme Court,\\

Aside from the fact that these are Jewish and not specifically Christian in origin, only three of them are of any legal force in the USA.

\\ that Praise Be To God is not inscribed on top of the Washington Mounument,\\

It's actually the Latin "Laus Deo"--but which deity? The Christian one? Shiva? The Masonic GAOTU?

\\ and following his separation of Church and State letter Jefferson, as chancellor of D.C. schools, did not order a bible and Wyatt hymnals\\

Was it the whole Bible? Or his own edition of the Bible that's full of holes? I've already posted his own words about the Gospels.
---Cluny on 11/17/10


Good question Cluny and it went further than the "founding fathers".
Secularlists are still trying to convince us the 10 commandments are not on the Supreme Court, that Praise Be To God is not inscribed on top of the Washington Mounument, and following his separation of Church and State letter Jefferson, as chancellor of D.C. schools, did not order a bible and Wyatt hymnals be placed in every school desk. All true but sucessfully deleted from American History books used in public schools.

The moderators reference is excellent.
---larry on 11/17/10


\\The USA was founded on the morality of the Christian faith, not on specific Christian principles.\\

I could go mad, in a nice way, trying to distinguish the difference between Christian morality and Christian prinicples.

However, if Christian morality derives from the words of Jesus Christ, He said this as well, "Do good to those who persecute you. Pray for those who despitefully use you. Turn the other cheek."

These being the direct words of Jesus, how can a Christian nation go to war, as the USA has done several times?
---Cluny on 11/17/10


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Aka-- typo. It's Prov 22:6 (not 66)
A nation of Christians is not necessarily a theocracy. According to Merriam Webster a theocracy is:
government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided
The earliest colonies may have been theocracies, but certainly the United States never has.
No, the Judaizers were in NO way similar to those who speak of shared Jewish-Christian values. They insisted that Christians follow ALL the Jewish laws of the day. You may not believe in the Jewish God of the Old Testament, but many Christians do.

Francis--We do not call this a Judeo- Christian-Islamic nation because Muslims played little to no part in it's
history until recently.
---Donna66 on 11/17/10


In other words, Mark, you can give no specifically Christian principles on which American was founded.
---Cluny on 11/17/10

I said so in my post.

However, there are concepts within our government that were considered part of Christian thought at the time of our founding that are no longer considered so.

For example, the concept of a supreme deity, the concept of man being a created being, the concept of man having a soul and conscience, the accountabililty of man with regard to punishment and reward, the fallen nature of man.

All these concepts and ideas were being discussed as they related to the forming a new nation.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/17/10


\\Many signers of the Declaration thought and wrote about the morals of the people, Benjamin Franklin:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters\\

Benjamin Franklin was not a Christian.

In other words, Mark, you can give no specifically Christian principles on which American was founded.
---Cluny on 11/17/10


WHAT Christian principles
---Cluny on 11/16/10

The USA was founded on the morality of the Christian faith, not on specific Christian principles.

Many signers of the Declaration thought and wrote about the morals of the people, Benjamin Franklin:

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters"

Richard Henry Lee:

"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people"

Jedediah Morse:

"Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them"
---Mark_Eaton on 11/17/10


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\\Why not Judeo-christian-islam since all three have the same God ( the god of Abraham Isaac and jacob) and all use the same OT books?
---francis on 11/16/10\\

Actually, they don't. Christians use the full OT. Jews and Protestants chop out whole books and parts of others.

Mahometans believe that the Biblical texts have been corrupted and only the Coran is reliable.

Christians believe that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jews, mahometans, and heretics deny this, so they do NOT worship the same god as Christians.
---Cluny on 11/17/10


Kevin's right. Killing natives to steal their homeland isn't Christ-like. Kidnapping native children, forcing them into institutions like prisoners and indoctrinating them with your culture while diminishing the value of their own isn't Christ-like. ---AlwaysOn on 11/12/10

Kevin, like yourself is not standing outside the box looking in either.
King David, not always correct either, but he had a merciful GOD,as a guide an protector.
NON Christian losing to NON perfect Christians...is still a given. Key is CHRISTIAN.
Which some of the NON became. Non's, were more atrocious. By the way many Americanized Indians kept Black slaves.
---Trav on 11/17/10


//Judaeo-Christian is a perfectly respectible term referring to a set of beliefs and ethics held in common by both Judaism and Christianity. //
Yes, and the proponents of them back in the bible days they were called Judaizers. Other than maybe the 10 commandments, what is our commonality? (We do not believe in the same God.)

A nation that follows Christ would certainly be a theocracy. Our president proudly says that we are no longer just a Christian nation. Good does not produce evil and evil does not produce good.

The point is that we call it a Christian nation, but there is little evidence of Jesus Christ (one verse) and alot of support for a form of godliness in the documents of our forefathers. Prov 22:66 does not exist.
---aka on 11/16/10


Why Judeo-christian?
Why not Judeo-christian-islam since all three have the same God ( the god of Abraham Isaac and jacob) and all use the same OT books?
---francis on 11/16/10


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Judaeo-Christian is a perfectly respectible term referring to a set of beliefs and ethics held in common by both Judaism and Christianity. The early settlers were decidedly Christian and had Christian goals as the Mayflower Compact (already quoted) states.
By the time of the Revolution, nobody envisioned a theocracy.

But Freedom of religion was considered basic. Numerous Biblical passages are inscribed on the Washingtom monument. The 24th step for example, The memorial says it is presented by Sunday Schools in NY and Philadelphia. It then says "A preached Gospel" and "A free press" and closes with Proverbs 10:7. There is a an open bible on the monument that includes Luke 18:16 and Prov 22:66.
---Donna66 on 11/16/10


Cluny, I refute and condemn every lie. And my name is not kemo sabe.
---Eloy on 11/16/10


\\Cluny, The cross is not idolatry to us Christians, \\

While I agree that the Cross is not idolatry for Christians, it cannot be refuted that Puritans (including the Pilgrims) considered it so.

BTW--what do you mean by "us Christians", Kemo Sabe? You actually think you are?
---Cluny on 11/16/10


Cluny, The cross is not idolatry to us Christians, but instead every Christian understands it is the most powerful symbol of God's power on earth to man. And the cross is the central mantle piece which is both set up front and also set on top of many Christian churches: "For the word of the cross to those perishing is foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is power of God. Greater love no one has than this, that someone lay down their life for their friends. For hardly for a just one somebody will die, for on behalf of the good perhaps somebody yet dares to die, but God which introduced of his love toward us, because besides being of the offenders, of us Christ for us died." I Cor.1:18+ Jn.15:13+ Rm.5:7,8.
---Eloy on 11/16/10


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Further thoughts:

Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit...blessed are the merciful...those who hunger and thirst after righteousness...who are persecuted."

How is this implemented in the founding of the USA?

He also said, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures on earth." Though some wag might say the income tax assists in this, how otherwise do our laws support this? (Especially since many churches preach against this.)

Where in our laws is the Resurrection of Christ supported?

Were any of these or similar principles from the mouth of Christ involved in our founding?
---Cluny on 11/16/10


//this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles...I'm just asking to be told exactly WHAT Christian principles, with citations from the New Testament or classical Creeds, were involved in the founding of this country. That's all. ---Cluny on 11/16/10

'Judeo' and Christian cannot co-exist. Please quit trying to mix them. Jesus' spiritual bloodline trumps His physical bloodline, which cannot coexist in the life of a new creation.

Why can't you give Cluny what he is asking for? Please explain to me why there are no inscriptions of Jesus' words in our federal buildings?
---aka on 11/16/10


\\The Pilgrims wanted to separate from the church of England. The Puritans only wanted to "purify it". \\

My point is that NEITHER would have used a cross, which they considered idolatry.

\\ How about the first Thanksgiving giving thanks to God for all of His blessings. \\

And I'm sure the native peoples who joined them also worshipped the Christian God, not their own deities on this occasion, too!

\\If you don't like the fact that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles...\\

I'm just asking to be told exactly WHAT Christian principles, with citations from the New Testament or classical Creeds, were involved in the founding of this country. That's all.
---Cluny on 11/16/10


The christian pilgrims in England wanted to worship God freely, and not be told by the King on how to do it. To escape the religious persecution, the pilgrims first went to Holland to live in peace, then soon after hearing about America's opportunities, they went there. Their Mayflower Compact reads: ..."Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, Covenant and Combine ourselves together into a Civil Body Politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid..."
---Eloy on 11/16/10


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Cluny -- I think you may be confusing the Pilgrims and Puritans. They settled in different places but both were basically Calvinists.
The Pilgrims wanted to separate from the church of England. The Puritans only wanted to "purify it".
The Pilgrims at Plymouth were Separatists, (wanting to be left alone and not be "contaminated" by other religious groups).
the Puritans at Massachusetts Bay were not.

Both were founded with Cristian goals. The Pilgrim's Mayflower Compact states: (as originally written) Haveing undertaken, for the glorie of God, and advancemente of the Christian faith, and honour of our king and countrie, a voyage to plant the first colonie in the Northerne parts of Virginia...
---Donna66 on 11/15/10


\\On September 6, 1620, one hundred and two Pilgrims boarded the Mayflower boat and left Plymouth, England, to go to the New World for civil and religious liberty.\\

Only for themselves--not for others, as Baptists, Quakers, Anglicans, and others who refused to conform to the established Calvinist Congregationalist church were quick to find out.

They had civil and religious freedom in the Netherlands, but didn't want their children to become Dutch.
---Cluny on 11/15/10


StrongAxe, yah, all this beuing said, the founders did not make the bible the law of the land in any way shape or form. Any christian founding a new land would have laws that are bible based, including laws to serve ONE GOD.

This did not happen here, in fact each citizen is free to serve his or her creator, whom ever that creator may be
---francis on 11/15/10


francis:

The law is like a pyramid, growing from a narrow peak down to a wide base, with each layer having less weight than the one above it.

US: a Constitution, dozens of amendments, thousands of laws, millions of books of case law.

OT: Ten Commandments, 600+ Levitical laws, and the Jews have the Talmud that is commentaries on the Law, and commentaries on commentaries.

NT: commandments of Jesus, Apostles, church traditions, denominational rules, thousands of books interpreting those.

The Bible is not a precise lawbook. For example: Can a Christian man marry two women? You would be hard pressed to find chapter and verse forbidding it, but just look at the hornets nest of argument this topic has generated here.
---StrongAxe on 11/15/10


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On September 6, 1620, one hundred and two Pilgrims boarded the Mayflower boat and left Plymouth, England, to go to the New World for civil and religious liberty. And they brought the 1560 A.D. Geneva Bible, the "Thanksgiving Bible" which the pilgrims brought with them to America upon the Mayflower and settled in the English colonies of Massachusettes and the east coast, and on this- Thee Bible- in which the Bible knowledge of the Puritans was built up during the Civil War. In November 1863 President Abraham Lincoln proclaims Thanksgiving Day a holiday. And it was this proclamation which led the Congress to permanently establish the last Thursday of each November as the national Thanksgiving holiday.
---Eloy on 11/15/10


\\When the pilgrims landed here, the first things that they did was to erect a cross and claim this land for Jesus.\\

Where did you get that idea?

The use of a cross was considered idolatry by these separatists! Why do you think they were "separating" themselves from the official established Church of English about, anyway? Why do you think others were called "Puritans"?

Furthermore, they were not coming to what became the United States to found a new country, as they still considered themselves British subjects.
---Cluny on 11/15/10


\\I have studied enough to know that this country was certainly founded on true men of God.\\

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man, and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
---Cluny on 11/15/10


When the pilgrims landed here, the first things that they did was to erect a cross and claim this land for Jesus. Sounds pretty Christian to me! And let's not forget why they came here in the first place. How about the first Thanksgiving giving thanks to God for all of His blessings. Sounds pretty Christian to me!
If you don't like the fact that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, then be honest enough to say that - but don't be so ridiculous as to say that none of this stuff happened.
---Roland on 11/13/10


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I have studied enough to know that this country was certainly founded on true men of God. If we the people of the U.S. don't stop listening to the propaganda of the atheists, God is going to come down here and kick it, the "U.S. OF America", in the ocean for good.
---catherine on 11/14/10


\\and every paper bill says IN GOD WE TRUST.\\

There was a movement to do so under Theodore Roosevelt. He said that such words should be spoken only with the utmost gravity and reverence, but to put them on items of common use, such as money, merely cheapened them.

But in any case, WHICH god? Father, Son and Holy Spirit? YHVH, Elohim, or Baal? Allah, Shiva, or Huitizpochitili?

The sentiments expressed about some deity in the Declaration of Independence are rather generic, quite in keeping with Enlightment and Deistic thought, and not specifically Christian.
---Cluny on 11/14/10


John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, JUDGE, DIPLOMAT, ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS, SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth.There is no authority, civil or religious there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.3

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.
---Lea on 11/14/10


If I were founding a new nation based on christianity or the bible, i would not need a constitution, i would simple make the Bible the Law of the land.

In disputed matters i would follow Exodus 18:21 provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness, and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Exodus 18:22 And let them judge the people at all seasons:

the founders seem to have gone out of thier way not to make the bile the law of the lan, and not to make religion a factor in the administration of the government.

hell must have just froozen over because me and cluny agree
---francis on 11/12/10


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Kevin's right. Killing natives to steal their homeland isn't Christ-like. Kidnapping native children, forcing them into institutions like prisoners and indoctrinating them with your culture while diminishing the value of their own isn't Christ-like. Enslaving Africans, abusing them, destroying families and profiting from forced labor without paying laborers a dime, isn't Christ-like. Making these acts legal and misusing scripture in attempt to justify widespread violence, theft, kidnapping and criminally insane behavior isn't Christ-like. Christian? Hmmm, actions speak louder than words. How do you go to church on Sunday, return home (to stolen land) and mistreat human captives that you force to work for free and claim to follow Christ?
---AlwaysOn on 11/12/10


It was definetly founded by Godly men and women but most weren't well educated and were not aware of the best and proper way to win souls.Some of them thought the natives were more like animals than human.
---shirley on 11/13/10


Maybe it was - I cannot say for sure, as I do not know enough about the people (NOT the leaders) who lived in the early days of the US.

Is this important - I would say no - it is not naitons that are of God, it is the people, or rather each person separately
---peter3594 on 11/13/10


National Thanksgiving Day was marked from the siging of the Mayflower Compact on November 21, 1620 A.D. (ie: November 11 by the old Julian Calendar= November 21 by the new Gregorian calendar since 1752 A.D.)- Americas first document of civil government and the first to introduce self-government. And it reads: ..."Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith and Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the First Colony in the Northern Parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, Covenant and Combine ourselves together into a Civil Body Politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid..."
---Eloy on 11/13/10


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hahahaa, thats why they killed the locals,
and after growing tired of killing put them on reservations :(
---kevin5443 on 11/12/10

There was some killing on both sides....

Well King David, a man after GOD's own heart, slayed Men,Women and Children, ditto all the other nations of Israel ....with GOD's blessing, help and authority. Maybe you need to quiz GOD, better yet, read the Bible..... intead of pointing a accusing historical finger.

One submits to Christs Kingdom, and his "Ruling People" or .....be a footstool in KJ. Get over it...or move just a little to the right.
---Trav on 11/13/10


hahahaa, thats why they killed the locals,
and after growing tired of killing put them on reservations :(
---kevin5443 on 11/12/10


The Christians settling in New England fled persecution by other Christians living in England. They in turn persecuted other Christians with whom they disagreed. The Christians settling further south came to make money. So I guess America is a Christian nation.
---Juanito on 11/11/10


IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957. it was used on coins post Civil war. Those are hardly founding dates.

US like every other nation and civilization has some form of God. Thus, why not use adopt a generic statement like that. it appeases believers in Jesus Christ and non-believers.

The point is that we call it a Christian nation, but there is little evidence of Jesus Christ and alot of support for a form of godliness in the documents of our forefathers.

Jesus Christ's ministry was not about estates and national borders. it is about the state of the hearts worldwide.

---aka on 11/11/10


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well let me just say that in reality it was Gods decision to send his son to fie for us that created christianity,and the preamble states we are endowed by our creator,and every paper bill says IN GOD WE TRUST.now further more we as humans have laws and a sense of right and wrong,where do you believe they come from?I,LL tell you GOD.
---tom2 on 11/11/10


The original USA settlers fled Europe to escape religious persecution. The USA has had some struggles, but what nation hasn't? The Bible says that we're all imperfect. Likewise, the USA isn't perfect either.

The Pilgrims experimented with having a Common House and Community Farm. Similar to Communism. That didn't work out and the farmland was divided up.

Slavery was common in the USA's early years. Many of the Founding Fathers owned slaves. The FIRST President, George Washington, owned slaves too. Slavery continued until the Civil War in the 1860's.

Today, the USA isn't much of a Christian nation. I often think that I'm persecuted just for quoting the Bible.

I pray that the USA turns back to GOD.
---Sag on 11/11/10


The United States is only 234 years old and it was the Christians fleeing from persecution in Europe that arrived on this land. It may have been "founded" by Christians initially but it does not make the USA a nation of Christians today. What is true is, it is now a nation full of false christians, in short - teaching of a false christ that's not of the Holy Bible - but indeed we have been warned by Christ about it.

As Christ declared, "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:7-9)
---christan on 11/11/10


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