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Children Of Hagar Promises

Explain the main distinctions between the children of Hagar and those of the Promise in Galatians 4:22f.

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 ---leej on 11/12/10
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1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:8 He that transgresseth the law is of the devil
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not transgress the law,
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

This is how you can tell the children of God from the children of the devil. The children of God obey the commandments ( do righteousness), the children of the devil transgresseth the law.
---francis on 11/20/10


Acts 15:20 That they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood is not all that new gentile converts would need to know. (Notice that these Laws are taken from the writings of mosses). These ere things that in their old life they would commonly practice. Other laws such as laws on marriage, giving, ear piercing, taking Gods name in vain, painting of skin and many more had to be learned. How then do Christians learn these things? Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day. So they are writing to the newly converted gentiles to familiarize themselves with the writings of Moses, which are taught every Sabbath day.
---francis on 11/20/10


Have you ever wondered why the apostles say Moses of old time is preached EVERY SABBATH? Was there not a consistant group of christians meeting every Sunday teaching from Moses?

Acts 16:13 And on the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was WONT to be made,
Acts 13:12 the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 the next Sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. Which would be consistent with all of scripture
Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger,.. every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,
Isaiah 56:7 for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
---francis on 11/20/10


//The Context of Acts 15 20-21 is not asking gentiles to stay away from Jewish laws.

Francis' interpretation is not held by any reputable Bible scholar that has ever lived.

He holds that interpretation solely because what it states (as well as many other Scripture) is totally at odds with what his denominations want to believe.

Their main interpretation is Ellen White who had no creditable credentials whatsoever.

So what would one expect of someone that is a true Hagarite?
---leej on 11/20/10


\\The Context of Acts 15 20-21 is not asking gentiles to stay away from Jewish laws

That's EXACTLY what Acts 15 is about. Who gave you the authority to disturb people's souls by saying this stuff? Not the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem.

\\Numbers 15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you, and the stranger that sojourneth with you,
Numbers 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.\\

And again you show your penchant for ripping verses out of context.

The first is talking about who is allowed to eat the Seder: only the circumcised.

Second is talking about who may offer what sacrifices.
---Cluny on 11/20/10




Francis, the context of Acts 15:20-21 is not saying what you said. James quotes Amos prophecy ( 9:11,12) of the millennial kingdom to prove that Gentile salvation was not contrary to God's plan for Israel. In fact, in the Kingdom God's messengers will annouce salvation to the Gentiles (Zech. 8:20-23). James point is that Amos makes no mention of Gentiles becoming Jewish proselytes. If Gentiles can be saved without becoming Jews in the kingdom, there is no need for Gentiles to become proselytes in the present age. v. 19 The decision of the Jerusalem Council, after considering all the evidence, was that keeping the law and observing rituals were not requirements for salvation. The Judaizers were to cease troubling and annoying the Gentiles.
---Mark_V. on 11/20/10


The first approach is to take Rom 2:13 as hypothetical, that is, as
setting forth the standard that no one actually meets. This approach has the strength of taking seriously the flow of Pauls argument in the broader context of Rom 1-4. Paul himself states in Rom 3:9-10, 23 that no one actually does meet the standard of Rom 2:13.

You MUST start at romans 1 and read through chapter 4 to get a complete understnding namely, salvation/justification is by faith in Christ on the basis of his atoning death and resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/10


Francis, when you give scripture you should interpret it correctly. Again you gave,
"1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
to prove a point and yet you miss interpret the passage.
All that passage says is, that those who do righteous deeds are righteous. When a person does righteous deeds it gives evidence he has the righteousness of Christ. Since all good things come from above. You on the other hand, are talking about self righteous deeds a man does without Christ. All the righteous deeds they do are sin, since God gets no glory. For anything without faith is sin.
---Mark_V. on 11/20/10


The Context of Acts 15 20-21 is not asking gentiles to stay away from Jewish laws. The bible constantly makes it clear that all believers are to have one God, one law, and one ordinance, so that a Hebrew and a converted Egyptian follow the same God. God is after all no respecter of persons.

Numbers 15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you, and the stranger that sojourneth with you,
Numbers 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
---francis on 11/19/10


Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT THE DOERS of the law shall be justified.//-Francis


Ya gotta keep reading Francis..

Romans 3:21
BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets,

All the verse do up to ROmans 3:21 do is prove every man guilty of sin and unable to attain righteous himself. That is their purpose.
---JackB on 11/20/10




LEEJ here is why you show yourself a hypocrite and ignorant of scripture:

You do not KILL, STEAL, LIE, COMMIT ADULTERY, COVET, WORSHIP IDOLS, TAKE GODS NAME IN VAIN, YOU HONOUR your FATHER AND MOTHER, DO NOT WORWSHIP OTHER GODS yet you do not consider it your own efforts to become a righteous.

But when someone else does it that you think it is their efforts to seek their own righteousnes.HYPOCRITE!

Now see scripture of course it does LEEJ no Good:
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT THE DOERS of the law shall be justified.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
---francis on 11/19/10


\\4: For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Acts 15:21 \\

The context of this quote, which you conveniently ignore, is about the impropriety of enforcing Jewish practices, such as the Sabbath and kashuroth, upon Gentile Christians.

Why, francis?
---Cluny on 11/19/10


//Apparently francis' answer is one from the flesh, of one that does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
--leej on 11/19/10 //


This is the type of stuff that will come back to haunt you. Can we not even have a debate without people judging one another as lost?

Just because not everyone is a Calvinist doesnt mean they dont know the Lord.
---JackB on 11/19/10


CHRISTIANITY IS NOT " RELIGION FOR DUMMIES."
Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.


Psalms 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.

Proverbs 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.

Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
---francis on 11/19/10


francis - you always do the dance around the issue when you are convicted of your own efforts to become a righteous person.

As for us Christians -

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

If you were to go to a church that preaches the word of God instead of the junk Ellen White taught, you yourself could acquire a sound mind for God will give it to you.
---leej on 11/19/10


Apparently francis' answer is one from the flesh, of one that does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
---leej on 11/19/10

You are truely getting more and more ridiculous with eachposting.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

If the law is spiritual how can it be of the flesh?

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

If the Law is holy how canit be of the flesh.

you are obviously a very disturbed man spiritually
---francis on 11/19/10


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This reply does not not address the fact that the Christian is born spiritually and acquires a new nature - a nature that abhors sin.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

And that 'new' will have a problem with sin!

Nor does it address the fact that the Christian comes under the discipline of the Lord. Hebrews 12:5f

Apparently francis' answer is one from the flesh, of one that does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
---leej on 11/19/10


Its very evident that lawfulness does not bring us righteousness..

Sin has that effect on a man. After a certain period of time IN sin, our hearts get so hard we begin to lose faith. The dog can return to his own vomit
---JackB on 11/18/10
AMEN
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
---francis on 11/18/10


God hates SIN so much that Jesus died to forgive us for our sins.
Please take the time to think about this:
How does Jesus feel, when a professed child of His intentionally commits the very sin that placed Jesus on the cross?
Do you understand that one of the sin that caused Jesus to die, was men eating what God said not to eat, and men working on the day which God said not to work.
Think about everything written down in the bible that God said to do or not to do, and think about Jesus dying on the cross because men did what God said not to do.

Do you really think that the father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost is please when professing christians do the very things that caused Jesus to be nailed to the cross?
---francis on 11/18/10


JackB, that was great. It made me think of those saved by Grace hardening their hearts by insulting the Spirit of Grace, trampling underfoot the Son of God, and counting the BLOOD of the covenant a common thing. That happens when their hearts are becoming hardened to the working/teaching of the Spirit, and going back to live under the law. Paul calls this condition, falling from GRACE. Galatians 3, hebrews 10.

It happens too when we see those professing christians fall into the hands of false teachers, hardening thrir hearts to the Holy Spirit and warnings, and continuing on with their favorite guru.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/10


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THINK ABOUT IT, if we did not have to obey all ten commandments, would the apostles have written these:
1: Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matt 4:10)
2: Neither be ye idolaters. (1Cor 10:7))
3: The name of God not blasphemed.(1Tim 6:1)
4: For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Acts 15:21
5: Honour thy father and mother (Eph 6:1-3)
6: Do not kill (James 2:11)
7: Adulterers God will judge.(Heb 13:4)
8: Let him that stole steal no more(Eph 4:28)
9: Lie not one to another (Col 3:9)
10: Be without covetousness, (Heb 13:5)
---francis on 11/19/10


//Were they placing christians under the Old Covenant?//

Nope they werent.

Its very evident that lawfulness does not bring us righteousness but what it DOES do is keep our hearts from being hardened.

Sin has that effect on a man. The guilt of knowing we have done wrong will harden our hearts if we dont repent. After a certain period of time IN sin, our hearts get so hard we begin to lose faith. The dog can return to his own vomit

That is why satan still tempts us to sin. He cannot steal what God has given us, but he can lead us in that direction and let us shipwreck our faith by not keeping a good conscience
---JackB on 11/18/10


//I agree, it's most important to show in teh OT that there is no such thing as LIMITED Atonement.

Thankyou leej for point that out. I know JackB will appreciate that point too.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/10//

And I do yes

Like when Christ said he must be lifted up as Moses lifted up the serpent

Curious thing about the serpent was that whoever looked upon it was healed of their poison. (no mention of limited healing capabilities)

But yet when Christ is lifted up some claim His healing is limited....

mind boggling
---JackB on 11/18/10


JackB //Except that in Gods very word He tells us that the OLD COVENANT is DEAD.

While the Old Covenant may be dead, it still speaks to us today as much of what is in the Old Covenant can be viewed in the New.

It is doubtful that one can truly understand the sacrifice that Jesus had to make on the Cross apart from what we know from the Old Covenant.
---leej on 11/18/10

I agree, it's most important to show in teh OT that there is no such thing as LIMITED Atonement.

Thankyou leej for point that out. I know JackB will appreciate that point too.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/10


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JackB - francis is merely explaining that all but one of the 10 commandments are to be found in the New Covenant. However, Adventists are still searching for a verse that commands Christians to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

Unfortunately, like the religious leaders Christ had to content with, they use obedience to the law, expecially the observance of the Jewish Sabbath as a means of condemnation.

They even said that Jesus had a demon because He healed on their Sabbath. And like them, they continue to accuse the followers of Jesus as being agents of Sabbath.

Poor souls, what terrible judgment will fall on them?
---leej on 11/18/10


Are you honestly suggesting that a person who is saved by Grace through faith, who does not KILL, STEAL, LIE, COMMIT ADULTERY, COVET, WORSHIP IDOLS, TAKE GODS NAME IN VAIN, HONOURS HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, DOES NOT WORWSHIP OTHER GODS is under the cold covenant?
---Francis on 11/18/10


JACKB be honest if you can.
When the apostles wrote these:
1: Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matt 4:10)
2: Neither be ye idolaters. (1Cor 10:7))
3: The name of God not blasphemed.(1Tim 6:1)
4: For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Acts 15:21
5: Honour thy father and mother (Eph 6:1-3)
6: Do not kill (James 2:11)
7: Adulterers God will judge.(Heb 13:4)
8: Let him that stole steal no more(Eph 4:28)
9: Lie not one to another (Col 3:9)
10: Be without covetousness, (Heb 13:5)

Were the placing christians under the Old Covenant?
---francis on 11/18/10


JackB //Except that in Gods very word He tells us that the OLD COVENANT is DEAD.

While the Old Covenant may be dead, it still speaks to us today as much of what is in the Old Covenant can be viewed in the New.

It is doubtful that one can truly understand the sacrifice that Jesus had to make on the Cross apart from what we know from the Old Covenant.
---leej on 11/18/10


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Re: Acts 15:20-21

James while agreeing with Peter that Gentile converts should not be troubled with Mosaic ritual laws as kept by Jewish Christians (sacrifices, unclean foods, circumcision, Sabbath, etc.), offered the proposal by which Gentile Christians could have fellowship with Jewish Christians and avoid giving offense since many Jewish Christians still followed in the laws of Moses as taught in synagogues. (Acts 2:46)

Church history reveals that once the Church became more Gentile and less Jewish, such prohibitions were no longer vogue.

Even the Apostle Paul taught Gentiles need not observe certain days or restrain from certain food (Romans 14:2-3,6, Col. 2:16).

And the verses are fairly plain in their meaning.
---leej on 11/18/10


//ALWAYS READ YOUR ENTIRE BIBLE. KEEP IN MIND THAT THE DIVISIONS BETWEEN THE BOOKS OF THE OT AND NT ARE NOT INSPIRED, THE ENTIRE BIBLE IS ONE BOOK OF GODS UNCHANGING WORD.//--Francis

Except that in Gods very word He tells us that the OLD COVENANT is DEAD.

It has been replaced by the NEW.

You are still living in the OLD COVENANT which is dead. If you continue to do that, you have no hope.
---JackB on 11/18/10


Everything we know about God should tell us that Gods Laws does not change.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
Psalms 138:2 for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Psalms 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not,
Psalms 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law,
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
---francis on 11/18/10


After writing to the converted gentiles that Acts 15:20..they should abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. The apostles add Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

If the stories you were told was true, then surely there must have been a regular gathering of gentile christian every first day reading Moses of old / The bible.

But because this is not true, and the only regular gathering of christians was taking place on the sabbath, the converted gentiles are told to learn more about the word of God every sabbath day, not every first day. This is still true TODAY, LIKE IT OR NOT.
---francis on 11/18/10


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The Lord promised to be with His church until the end of time.

Mt. 28:20b And behold, I (Jesus)am with you always, to the end of the age.

And Jesus has become the cornerstone of the church.

Eph. 2:20b And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.

It would seem very odd for one to accept the belief that some new religious movement centuries later would be needed to restore His church. And such religious movements are the Mormons, Jehovah's Witneses, and Seventh Day Adventists, none of whose leaders had any verifiable credentials.

Galatians warns us of those who preach another Jesus or another gospel.(1:6-7)
---leej on 11/18/10


//They had to wait until Acts 13:44 the next sabbath..to hear the word of God. Because there was no such thing as regular Sunday worship services for christians in the NT.
-
It is truly obvious that Francis has little or no knowledge of church history. While Paul sought converts by going into the jewish synagogues, the early church chose to met in homes and that was usually the first day of the week.

Ac 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow, and continued his speech until midnight.

Sorry but nowhere in the earliest writings of any of the church fathers do you find any support for the Jewish sabbath.
---leej on 11/18/10


ALWAYS READ YOUR ENTIRE BIBLE. KEEP IN MIND THAT THE DIVISIONS BETWEEN THE BOOKS OF THE OT AND NT ARE NOT INSPIRED, THE ENTIRE BIBLE IS ONE BOOK OF GODS UNCHANGING WORD.

---Cluny I answered you fully on what was fulfilled with texts see my post starting with " Earthly sanctuary fulfiled by Hebrews 8:2

---JackB Jack see 1 Corinthians 5:3, 1 Corinthians 5:12

---kathr4453 see Exodus 5:1, Ezekiel 46:3, Isaiah 66:23, Mark 1:21 ,Mark 6:2 Luke 4:31, Acts 13:43***,Acts 15:21, Acts 16:13**

---kathr4453 and ---Cluny see Acts 13:43***
Acts 15:21, Hebrews 4:9 -11
---francis on 11/17/10


Acts13:44 this proves that Gentiles are obliged to the Sabbath just how?
-Cluny
Acts 13:42-Acts 13:44
Four groups of people gathered to worship that sabbath: THE UNBELIEVING JEWS, The gentiles, The believing proselytes, and the believing jews.

Only to those who believed in Christ could paul have said Acts 13:43.. continue in the grace of God.

With two groups of believers present in the city Acts 13:43..the Jews and religious proselytes..one would think that the next day being the first day, there would have been a church gathering of christians.

They had to wait until Acts 13:44 the next sabbath..to hear the word of God. Because there was no such thing as regular Sunday worship services for christians in the NT.
---FRANCIS on 11/18/10


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\\4: And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.(Acts13:44) \\

And this proves that Gentiles are obliged to the Jewish Sabbath just how, francis?

And you've not dealt with the dilemma of either ALL the Law passed away because Jesus fulfilled it all, or we are still in our sins.
---Cluny on 11/17/10


Theres nothing wrong with following the 10 commandments out of love for God.

The problem comes in when you judge someone as lost based on those laws.

When you do that you are condemning yourself as well.

You should be judging others based on their faith in Jesus Christ since that is what God will judge men by now.
---JackB on 11/17/10


---kathr4453 on 11/17/10
With Abraham with Circumcision ( TRUE)

With Israel with The Sabbath (NO)
Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the BLOOD, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the BLOOD of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

With the New Covenant, Communion!(NO)

Matthew 26:28 For this is my BLOOD of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
---Francis on 11/17/10


FRANCIS, YOUR #4 RE: came together on the sabbath.

1. The Sabbath was never a day of Worship, but rest.

2. There is no COMAND in that verse in Acts...like THOU Shall worship on the sabbath.

3. Paul and the other Apostles never gave instruction one must rest on the sabbath.

4. We are to esteem ech day teh same.

5. We are not too judge anyone concerning the sabbath, etc. Colossians 2.

6. The Sabbath was NOT given to Adam and Eve as a sign of any Covenant! To Israel alone, not even Abraham. You will not even see a Sabbath day mentioned in the whole book of JOB.

7.I REST my Case!
---kathr4453 on 11/17/10


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This idea of changing the LAW and TIME /Sabbath is a BIBLICAL PROPHECY:

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Daniel 7:25..and think to change times and laws:

From The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, by Peter Geiermann, page 50
We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

The 4th beast is ROME
this attampt to change the LAW come from the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law,
---Francis on 11/17/10


All 10 Commandments are repeated in the NT, yet not ALL churches teach them.
1: Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matt 4:10)
2:Neither be ye idolaters. (1Cor 10:7))
3: The name of God not blasphemed.(1Tim 6:1)
4: And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.(Acts13:44)
5: Honour thy father and mother (Eph 6:1-3)
6: Do not kill (James 2:11)
7: Adulterers God will judge.(Heb 13:4)
8: Let him that stole steal no more(Eph 4:28)
9: Lie not one to another (Col 3:9)
10: Be without covetousness, (Heb 13:5)

Matthew 13:25 tares among the wheat

Those churches look like the real thing just like the tares look like the wheat.
---francis on 11/17/10


//For those of you who have not gotten it yet. The earthly sanctuary laws were a schoolmaster,..

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

There is no commentary in existence that will say that the earthly sanctuary laws were the schoolmaster.

Religion fools have to re-write the Bible to fit their silly false teachings.

Following their folly one could say that in the same epistle, for Gal. 3:11

But that no man is justified by the sanctuary law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Francis needs to find a church that preaches the Bible before he goes completely crazy.
---leej on 11/17/10


francis, here is what I found
God made a covenant with Noah and marked it by a Rainbow.

With Abraham with Circumcision

With Israel with The Sabbath


With the New Covenant, Communion!

francis you do not keep the sabbath as in the OT, because it required putting to DEATH anyone who broke it. So you live in continual disobedience to God for not policing your congregation and enforcing the Sabbath and consequences.

However to MURDER is also a sin. and enforcing a sabbath on anyone would result in murder!

What are you going to do now???
---kathr4453 on 11/17/10


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---kathr4453 on 11/17/10
Did you not see my post where i showed ALL TEN COMMANDMENTS in the NT?

So here is my challenge:

I will put the commandment and you put the fuilling text just as i did:

example: Earthly high priest fulfilled by Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest

Now your turn:
1:SABBATH
2: thou shall not steal
3: Thou shall not take the lord's name in vain
4: Do not worship idols
5: Honor thy father and mother
6: Thou shall not lie

Before you post Read Psalms 37:7 Isaiah 66:22-23.

If you read you bible: Genesis 2:3 Exodus 16:26 You wills ee thatthe sabath was given way observed long before God spoke the ten commandments or the earthly sanctuary erected.
---francis on 11/17/10


we are told the Law of Liberty is a higher law written on our hearts than the Law of Moses. The Law of LOVE.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/10
Please define for me:
1: The law of liberty and give an example of this
2: The law of Moses and give and example of this
3: The law of love and give and example of this
4: The law written in our hearts and give and example of this

Also please tell me what method/s you used to put each law in a given category.
Ofcourse scripture is needed in all this.
---francis on 11/17/10


francis, we are told the Law of Liberty is a higher law written on our hearts than the Law of Moses. The Law of LOVE.

We obey out of LOVE, not fear. Yet, we know in LOVE, we do not steal, kill, etc.

But you need to remember too, that that fulfilled In Christ was the Sabbath. We now REST IN HIM, not a day, as was the OLD sanctuary.

Jesus fulfilled the LAW, not by keeping the law or Keeping it for us, but by fulfilling the requirements of the Law, that is DEATH, Judgement etc.

The purpose of the LAW showed we deserve death. The purpose of Grace shows us Jesus fulfilled the penalty of DEATH for Us..Hebrews 2!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/17/10


For those of you who have not gotten it yet. The earthly sanctuary laws were a schoolmaster, it was added because of sin / trangression to show the plan of redeemption. It was to last until Jesus came. Jesus was the fulfilment of all that was in the earthly sanctuary.

In the New covenant, Jerimiah says that God will place His laws in our hearts. Neither in Jerimiah nor in Hebrews does God say that the laws would be changed.

So in the new covenant, rather than use the earthly sanctuary when we broke the laws of God, we come boldly to the heaveny sanctuary, where christ sits as high priest.

The laws that define sin has never changed, what has changed in where we go to when we sin, and what blood is used when we sin.
---francis on 11/17/10


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Earthly sanctuary fulfiled by Hebrews 8:2 A true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Earthly high priest fulfilled by Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest

Passover lamb fulfilled by 1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

light fulfilled by John 8:12 I am the light of the world:

Shewbread fulfilled by John 6:51 I am the living bread

Temple veil fulfilled by Hebrews 10:20 the veil, that is to say, his flesh,

Temple wine fulfilled by 1 Corinthians 11:25 This cup is the new testament in my blood:

Laver water fulfilled by John 4:10 Jesus the living water.

circumcision fulfilled by Romans 2:29 circumcision is that of the heart,
---Francis on 11/16/10


If He fulfilled all the Law, then it has ALL passed away.
---Cluny on 11/16/10

Good question, what does the NT say:

1: Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matt 4:10)

2:Neither be ye idolaters. (1Cor 10:7))

3: the name of God not blasphemed.(1Tim 6:1)

4: And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.(Acts13:44)

5: Honour thy father and mother (Eph 6:1-3)

6: Do not kill (James 2:11)

7: adulterers God will judge.(Heb 13:4)

8: Let him that stole steal no more(Eph 4:28)

9: Lie not one to another (Col 3:9)

10: be without covetousness, (Heb 13:5)

YEP ALL TEN STILL IN NT
---francis on 11/16/10


//To say we are free not to keep the sabbath would contradict James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If Christians are required to observe the Jewish law i.e. the Sabbath, then you would have to say the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) acted without authorization in telling the Gentiles they needed not be circumcised AND observe the law of Moses. ("The Gentiles must be circumcised AND required to obey the law of Moses." Acts 15:5b)

Concerning the Mosaic law, Paul spoke against the Judaizers -

Ga 2:4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in-who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery -
---leej on 11/16/10


Cluny //Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The key clause here is 'till ALL be fulfilled'.

In which case, the Adventists can still say that some but not all, Old Testament laws are still in effect.

While there is not even a hint of a command in the New Testament for Christians to observe the Sabbath or the Levitical dietary laws, yet there is no nullification, in which case, they can still maintain such laws need be observed.

Frankly, they are the modern day Judaizers - what is left of the old circumcision party that contended with Paul in Galatians.
---leej on 11/16/10


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MarkV, Francis - are we still have an obligation to the old ten commandment covenant?

Paul in 1 Cor. 9:21 simply explained that he was under the "law of Christ".

1Co 9:21-23 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospels sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Heb 3:3 For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses-as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself.
---leej on 11/16/10


\\---Cluny on 11/16/10 Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did Jesus lie?\\

Did Jesus fulfill all the Law--or not?

If He fulfilled all the Law, then it has ALL passed away.

If He has NOT fulfilled all the Law, then we are still in our sins and have no savior.

Which is it, francis? There is no third alternative.
---Cluny on 11/16/10


leej Have yo ever heard of LINE UPON LINE PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT?

To say that we are free not to keep the sabbath would contradict James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Paul is speaking here of feast day like pentecost.
Corinthians 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.

When paul speak about what we can eat it is NEVER clean meats verses unclean, It is clean meat or vegitable.

Corinthians 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols,
---francis on 11/16/10


While the Jewish sabbath as well as the Levitical dietary laws were not nullified in the New Covenant of the church, they were no longer mandated. Romans 14:2-3,5 could not be more clear on this issue that these were made optional to the believer.

One mans faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Those who teach otherwise put their religion above the plain teachings of the Bible.
---leej on 11/16/10


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---Cluny on 11/16/10 Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did Jesus lie? If what you say is true, not only a jot or tittle passed away, and entire commandment passed away.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

by the law is the knowledge of sin..
---mima on 11/16/10

I agree MIMA, does at mean we do not have to obey the law?
---francis on 11/16/10


let me just ask one question here to make this simple:

How many of you believe that those who have accepted christ, and are saved by grace through faith should keep 9/10 commandments. That would be all ten commandments, except the sabbath. With the full understanding that you keep 9/10 commandments not to be saved, not as a mean of righteousness, but because you love God.
---francis on 11/16/10


Francis, consider, Romans three-20-21-22
" 20-Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21-But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets,

22-Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"
---mima on 11/16/10


Christianity is not " religion for dummies."
Paul speaks of the Old and New covenant in details in Hebrews. He speaks of the earthly sanctuary and it's services being transfered to the heavenly sanctuary and it's services. He doe snot exclude diet or ten commandments..
When paul speaks of the sabbath in Hebrews, he lets them know that the " rest" which Joshua spoke about in Joshua 22:4, did not replace the sabbath. he also reminded them that the sabbath was about God's work as creator. He reminded them that soem did not enter rest / Cannan because of unbelief. In like manner some do not keep the sabbath because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
---francis on 11/16/10


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Francis, you are under the law because you make the law legal in your life.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/10
Allow me to expose you. ( and some others)
MarkV you are under the law because you
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet
And you will not accept Christ's sacrifice in keeping the law perfect on your behalf. You are determine to keep it legal, so you are under the Law.
---francis on 11/16/10


hagar's children = children of the flesh. Remember Abraham was past age and so was Sarah. Isaac was a child of PROMISE. God promised Abraham and SARAH a child. Isaac was born through supernatural means. I don't mean like Jesus was. This is where Abraham and Hagar (Abraham and Sarah's momentary lapse of faith) brought in Ishmael.( SELF EFFORT, BUT Ishmael was not the child Promised to Abraham /Sarah.

Our New Birth In Christ makes us Children of Promise. The PROMISE is the Promise of the Holy Spirit. When we are Born of the Spirit, we become begotten sons, through Jesus Christ. Even Hagar's literal children can become a child of promise through Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/10


This blog question is truely about the Sabbath, and I understand.

Christianity is not " religion for dummies." There are more than 2000 different christian denominations. Has it ever occured to you that a denomination that teaches 9/10 of the commandments cannot be teaching the whole truth?

James 2 says if you break one you are guilty of all. Some how it does not yet occur to many that if you break the sabbath commandment, you are guilty of breaking the law, just as if you murdered.

Isaiah 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
---francis on 11/16/10


Francis, you are under the law because you make the law legal in your life. So long as you live under the law you will break the law in some way or another. And no one can be save by keeping the Law because no one can. If people could keep the law and be save, we would have no need for Christ. I don't think anything anyone says or writes down from Scripture will ever satisfy you. You mind set is on the Law. And you will not accept Christ's sacrifice in keeping the law perfect on your behalf. You are determine to keep it legal, so you are under the Law.
---Mark_V. on 11/16/10


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\IF I 4. Keep the Sabbath holy am I under the law?\\

Yes, because Gentiles are not obliged to this in the NT.
---Cluny on 11/16/10
Where in the bible does it say that?

How would that square with James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

DId He who said do not commit adultery, and do not lie, steal and covet also say remember the sabbath day?
---francis on 11/16/10


\\IF I 4. Keep the Sabbath holy am I under the law?\\

Yes, because Gentiles are not obliged to this in the NT.
---Cluny on 11/16/10


LEEJ your general idea of not being under the Law is very much correct. But your idea of what it means to be under the law of faulty.

So let me ask eberyone on this blog:

If i 1. Do not worship other gods and i under the law?
If I: Do not worship idols am I under the law?
IF I 3. Do not misuse God's name, and i under the law?
IF I 4. Keep the Sabbath holy am I under the law?
IF I 5. Honor your father & mother, amd I under the law?
If I 6. Do not murder, am I under the law?
If I 7. Do not commit adultery, am I under the law?
If I 8. Do not steal, am I under the law
If I 9. Do not lie, am i Under the law?
If I 10. Do not covet, am I under the law?
---francis on 11/15/10


Galatians addresses the freedom Christians have from the law of Moses.

Gal. 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And as sons by adoption we are no longer subject to the law as the law was but a schoolmaster (tutor, guardian) UNTIL we could be justified by faith.(Ga 3:24-25).

The law here refers to the law given in the covenant God made with Israel on Mt. Sinai - the covenant represented by the slave woman Hagar. (4:25)

Do not be deceived by modern day Judaizers who advocate obedience to the Jewish Sabbath - which was but a shadow of the reality in Christ. Col 2:17.
---leej on 11/15/10


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Hebrews 8:6...a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them..

Surely the New Covenant is better than the old. The new covenant is based on better promises, indded it is based on promises already kept. Christ has already died, and is now serving in the heavenly sanctuary to cleanse us of sin.

But the faulh, and the bondage of the Old covenant was not the faulh of God, it was not the fault of the covenant itself, it was the fault of those who promises to keep the covenant.

HAGAR is your old covenant SARAH is your new covenant
---francis on 11/15/10


\\ and the bondage of the ceremonial law.\\

francis, do you realize that the Bible itself makes no distinction between "ceremonial law" and other laws?

This is a tradition and precept of men.

The Bible speaks of only ONE law: The Law.
---Cluny on 11/15/10


2/2

But the other, Sarah, was intended to prefigure Jerusalem which is above, or the state of Christians under the new and better covenant, which is free both from the curse of the Moral law, and the bondage of the ceremonial law.

We Christians, who have accepted Christ, and rely upon him, and look for justification and salvation by him alone, as hereby we become the spiritual, though we are not the natural, seed of Abraham,
---francis on 11/15/10


1/2
These things, says he, are an allegory, wherein, besides the literal and historical sense of the words, the Spirit of God might design to signify something further to us, and that was, That these two, Agar and Sarah, are the two covenants The former, Agar, represented that which was given from mount Sinai, and which gendereth to bondage, which, though it was a dispensation of grace, yet, in comparison of the gospel state, was a dispensation of bondage, and became more so to the Jews, through THEIR MISTAKE of the design of it, and expecting to be justified by the works of it.
---francis on 11/15/10


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Christians who have in them the spirit of Christ, and have accepted salvation by grace through faith know how to live a Godly life.
they understand that they are not saved by keeping the law, they understand that for a christians sin is the exception and not the rule, and rightly dividing the word of God they,
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
---francis on 11/15/10


2/2

But the other, Sarah, was intended to prefigure Jerusalem which is above, or the state of Christians under the new and better covenant, which is free both from the curse of the Moral law, and the bondage of the ceremonial law.

We Christians, who have accepted Christ, and rely upon him, and look for justification and salvation by him alone, as hereby we become the spiritual, though we are not the natural, seed of Abraham,
---francis on 11/15/10


The apostle illustrates the difference between believers who rested in Christ only and those judaizers who trusted in the law, by a comparison taken from the story of Isaac and Ishmael. Verse 24 tells us "which things are symbolic", to the law and grace.

The law - Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.", 22 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

John 1:17 - "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.", John 8:32 - "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
---christan on 11/13/10


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