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Engaged Couples Living In Sin

My son & future daughter in law have been living together for 10 months. They have now planned to marry in Dec (after April plans) because they are now living in sin. God told her to do it then. After living together for 10 months it is now right? Wedding was planned for 4/30/10

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Always On ... I was talking about the laws that the Jews were to be persecuted and exterminated.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/15/10


Alan, I get what you're saying and I agree with you. As I'm sure you know, however, there is no law that says people must have a civil marriage. With no law to break, there is no civil disobedience taking place in this case.
---AlwaysOn on 12/14/10


Shira is right we must obey God. We are Christians and it is all Christians life to obey God. My view is a little different on this situation,they are sinners but I know from being around people doing that not all of them are evil,sinners yes,but not my idea of evil. In fact most of them are really good people but sadly they are not saved,when not saved one sin is no greater than another so living together is no worse than stealing or any other sin. They are sinners period. To us there are degrees of sin to God there isn't,James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law,and yet offend in one point,he is guilty of all. What they need the most is God.
---Darlene_1 on 12/14/10


Donna66 thank you. We do seem to have the same view!

But other (and we have heaerd them here) interpret the Romans passage ti say that whetever the civil authories order, they must obey.

Shira ,,, there were laws.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/14/10


Alan of UK-- My view is that we should obey those in authority over us, unless we would be disobeying God in so doing.
---Donna66 on 12/13/10




People are evil because they choose to be. I know we are to obey the laws of the land but gassing of jews was not a law but came from a vile dictator. First we must obey God.
---shira3877 on 12/14/10


Donna ... Yes Donna ... we are all on Gods side, but some have a different interpretation to what god is like. Your own two scripture quotes don't fully support each other.

One says we must obey the civil authorities (and have civil marriages ... and participate in the holocaust as ordered to do so)

The other says we should do what God tells us, not man ( & thus to follow what God says about marriage and I suggest refuse to do the evil of holocaust)

But Mark appears ambivalent about the issue of people defying the civil authority and refusing to gas Jews. I can't make out what you view is.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/13/10


It's not a matter of who is on who's side. Is there some kind of contest going on here? We are ALL on God's side, I think.

All I did was quote scripture. And I don't think the scripture Markv quoted meant he approved in any way of the Nazi's...The scripture he cites show that God can do whatever He wants for any reason He wants. And He is not always gentle and kind. As for our part, we usually don't see the big picture but must act according to what the Lord has taught us.
---Donna66 on 12/12/10


Part 2: God raises nations and brings them down, and when they disobey, He finds them at fault even though He uses them. God tells us in Habakkuk 1:5 before verse 6,
"Look among the nation and watch- Be utterly astounded! For I will work a work in your days which you would not believe, though it were told you" God works in the lives of people, even believers. God mentions that the Chaldeans were evil, and described them as self-assured, self-sufficient, self-deified, and deadly (Jer. 51:20. They were like wolves who had suffered hunger all day long. Yet God raised them up to power. For His own purpose. He permitted them to get as they were, and then used them for His own purpose.
---Mark_V. on 12/12/10


Mark Yes Donna is totally right. She says "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men" And she is right to think that I would not support the idea that the gassing was God's will

But then you give passages that taken alone and out of proper context say that any ill inflicted on a city (or people presumably) is planned by God

Whose side are you on? ... Donna's side, when she says we should obey God not man, or my side, when I say we should obey God not man.

Or are you saying that the Holocaust men were obeying God? I don't think that is what Donna thinks
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/12/10




Alan of UK -- It wasn't I who said it. It was from scripture. Rom 13:1-2 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established...The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
(I, myself, might have put it less strongly.)

Your question about those who take part in the Holocaust gave me reason to answer with another scripture When rebuked by the high priest for preaching the Gospel against orders, Act 5:29 Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
---Donna66 on 12/12/10


Of course Donna I don't think that of you.

But you had said "The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves"

And that would include rebelling against the instruction to kill the Jews.

If you rely on that to support the necessity to follow secular marriage registration to legitimise a relationship made before God, don't you see how it would follow on ...?.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/12/10


Donna66, I totally agree with you. The answer that Alan gave is written in the same way I get his. He cannot understand something so he suggest something so off the wall as the gassing of Jews. It is a lack of studying who God is and what He does and can do.
"Shall evil befall a city, and Jehovah hath not done it? Amos 3:6. And how about those terrible Chaldeans,
" For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and nasty nation, that march through the breadth of the earth, to possess dwelling places that are not theirs" Hab. 1:6-11.
---Mark_V. on 12/12/10


//Presumably you also think that those who refused to take part in the Holocaust were sinning.//
Oh, Allen you know better. No Christian thinks that!

Act 5:27-29 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them, Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
---Donna66 on 12/11/10


Marriage that God created was NOT a simple agreement between two people who just said that they're committed. Even in the Bible days it was a legal agreement between both parties and the authorities at that time. There may not have been a marriage certificate but there were legal ramifications if you left your spouse (read exodus and leviticus). So your suggestion that a couple living together that says "we're committed" is just as married in God's eyes is not biblical, because there is no accountability for either of them to the public. If their really committed, they wouldn't mind putting their money where their mouth is and making it legal. If their is not accountability to others then it is not a marriage in God's eyes.
---jed on 12/11/10


Jed ... I am not opposing God's word.

I am querying condemnations that result from the interpretation that some put on it.

Presumably you also think that those who refused to take part in the Holocaust were sinning.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/11/10


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Alan, don't just be another cluny on this site, opposing God's word on every issue. Neither Donna, nor I, nor anyone else created the law and institution of marriage, God did! A real marriage was never done in secret. It is a public confession of your love, devotion, and commitment to eachother, so that you can be held accountable before the world to maintain your commitment. If you are not legally married then you are more likely not to stay when it really gets rough because you are not legally bound and it is easy to just leave.
---jed on 12/10/10


Donna66 ... So those who refused to take part in the gassing of 6 million Jews were sinning?
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/24/10


Alan8566 --

Rom 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Unless you believe it is wrong to be married in the eyes of the state, why would you object? The fact is, Christians have believed for generations that those living together outside of marriage are sinning. I'm not sure why a modern Christian would want to give that impression.
---Donna66 on 11/23/10


Donna 66 ... So we are talking about marriages recognised by the state and by the church. Not by God!!

You reckon that God would condemn a couple who have taken private vows before Him, and applaud those who make have a pretty pretty wedding in a church, making fake promises to God.

How important that bit of legal paper is ... much more so than a genuine commitment before God.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/23/10


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Alan8566 of UK-- Marriages #1,2 and 4 are legally recognized marriages. #3 is sometimes recognized by the state... but seldom by the church.

//A civil wedding carried out be a civil servant. What Christian validity does it have? You could argue, none.//

No. As far as I can see, God expects those who pledge to each other in a civil marriage to exercise the same faithfulness and devotion as those who take their vows before clergy. Their marriage is as legally valid.
---Donna66 on 11/22/10


Donna66 I will now address you with your number, but I had not realised that the other Donna had contributed to this blog!

There are 4 different types of marriage, or union:

1 Marriage of Christians in church, vows made before God ... this is the real marriage.

2 A civil wedding carried out be a civil servant. What Christian validity does it have? You could argue, none.

3 A couple committing themselves to each other before God, but without the human officiant.

4 A couple, with absolutely no Chrisian thought marrying in church, because it is a pretty venue, and the music is nice

I know the order in which I would place these.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/22/10


Donna 66 I argued about that passage because the treatment of the Bible as absoluterly literal sometimes produces a nonsense.

People use it literally, but fail to realise that by doing this they are creating a nonsense!

Another example is Paul's instruction about elders and bishops, where he says they must be the spouse of only one person. Those who take it literally and insist that only males can be leaders, fail to realise that literalism also means they must not be single ot widowed, and msut have children. Or if they do realise only use the bit of literalism that aids their argument.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/22/10


Wow,I'm taken back by this. I think that natural answer to this question is YES, they are living in sin. I don't think that it is even questionable in any theological interpretation.

Jesus said that if we even look at another with lust, that is a sin. Thank you for mentioning that we are not perfect. I did it and knew it was wrong and felt terrible about it.

We try to manipulate scripture to make what we want or are doing to alright before God. If you don't see adultrey in the chruch, then you are blind..because those things happen.

Christians have God's grace to cover us and the Holy Spirit to motivate us...but we know when we sin and we know what to do abt it.

Just my humble opinion. Maureen
---Maureen on 11/22/10


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Alan8566 -- YOU are the one who emphasized the word "every", NOT I. I simply quoted the passage without emphasis. Thus, I don't know how you can deduce that it was meant as a personal affront.

Even when I gave my own interpretation, the empasis was on marriage vs living together NOT every man or woman. And I even mentioned the fact that Paul himself was a single man. You continually accuse me of not reading your posts, may I suggest that you don't read mine either.

Would you mind addressing your answers to Donna66 OR Donna5535 when both are responding to you? I always address you as Alan8566 or Alan-of-UK though I think there is one one Alan contributing here.
---Donna66 on 11/22/10


Cluny -- The fact that geneologies (totally accurate or not) are important enough to be included in the Bible, means that SOMEBODY
took the trouble to keep some records. As impotant as lineage was to the Jews, do you think these records were not available to those who might have questions about inheritance or suitabilty for marriage?
---Donna66 on 11/22/10


Donna ... I took it personally because you seemed to say that to avoid sin EVERY man must have a wife. That to me was a personal judgment on my marital situation.

I understand all you say ... but notice that you do fall back onto the authority of the law ... which is civil.

But Paul DID say "Every" and both of us have to look at than and realise he did not mean it literally, because if we did, we would both of us be breaking his instruction. It just shows that maybe we should not take the Bible totally literally, rather than seeking the meaning.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/22/10


Donna I've seen a few people run into the same problem with alan. He thinks people are talking about him when they explain something, he takes the explanation personal, and gets mad. he worries alot about his image.
---mary on 11/22/10


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I am quite upset that you should accuse me, a widower, of living in sin because I do not have a wife
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/21/10
I did not accuse you of it, brother. I asked why are you arguing with God's word?
He calls it fornication if you are doing this without a declaration of marriage.
Can you show me where God did not say this?
You are the one arguing for the fact that living together without marriage is not fornication, so you be the one to prove it.
You know what the Bible says about the subject. If you don't condone it, why are you are arguing for it?
Why does it matter when the first declaration of marriage was? Are you trying to say Adam and Eve were fornicating?
---ginger on 11/22/10


Alan8566---Why do you take this personally? I have heard no one accuse you of anything.

The Scripture passage is not about marriage, but avioding fornication . The use of the word "husband" and wife" leads me to believe he has in mind a married couple joined by authority of the law, not just a "committed" union from which one can "uncommit" at a moments notice.

Makes sense it is easier for most people to avoid fornication if they are married. Obviously this is not the ONLY way. Paul was not married and he seemed to avoid this sin.

I'm not married, but I'm an doddering old lady who has had both breasts removed due to cancer. I'm not tempted... and no man is tempted by me!
---Donna66 on 11/21/10


Ginger/Donna ... I have made it quite clear I do not condone fornication, nor living topgether or any sexual activity outside marriage.

You have not told me when the Bible first mentions marriage asa moral requirement.

And you have not answered my question about EVERY msn hsving a wife, and EVERY woman hsvinga husband.

I am quite upset that you should accuse me, a widower, of living in sin because I do not have a wife
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/21/10


Alan, do you realize you what fornication is?
And can you answer your own question?
If two people are living together and they have not declared they are married then they are fornicating. That is very simple.
If I am not mistaken that is how they did it back then also.

what do you do with what Paul tells unmarried people? The advice he gives.
Do you realize you sound like you are condoning living together without declaration of marriage (fornication)? And I am not talking about a piece of paper either. That is for law purposes. I am saying that 2 people who say they are engaged are not married until they declare in front of witnesses that they are married. Until then they are in fact according to God's word...FORNICATING.
---ginger on 11/21/10


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Ginger/Donna ... When was marriage first mentioned in the Bible?

And if you are taking the passage literally, how do you answer my question?
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/21/10


Donna ... 1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband

Why don't you answer my question about this. Do you have a husband? I don't have a wife. So we are disobeying the scripture.

And that is not in any case saying the couple living together is in fornication.

You are clutching at straws to find the condemnation.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/21/10


Really alan? do you not know the definition of fornication?

Fornication is to have sexual relations with someone you are not married to.
Now, is living together and having those relations marriage? No.
That means that it is fornication and therefore sin.
---ginger on 11/21/10


For the benefit of those unable to look it up:
1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband
---Donna66 on 11/20/10


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Donna ... i agree the implicattion, but do you think it really means EVERY man should have a wife, and EVERY woman a husband?

And it still does not say that living together in a committed relationship is a sin.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/20/10


Alan8566 ofUK-- How do you know it means exclusivity...and not "husband" and "wife" as it says? Sounds to me like it certainly implies marriage by that terminology.
---Donna66 on 11/20/10


Donna ... You are not answering the question. 1 CR 7.2 refers to exclusivity. I wholeheartedly agree with it.

BUT

It does not say that living together outside marriage is a sin.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/20/10


1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
---Donna66 on 11/20/10


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Blogger
Psychology Today reported the findings of Yale University sociologist Neil Bennett that cohabiting women were 80% more likely to separate or divorce than were women who had not lived with their spouses before marriage. The National Survey of Families and Households indicates that "unions begun by cohabitation are almost twice as likely to dissolve within 10 years compared to all first marriages: 57% to 30%."
---Donna66 on 11/18/10


Donna ... You clearly have not read my previous postsf for you ahve not dealt with my questions to you!.

As I said, I do think we should not lieve together before marriage. BUT

Where is living together outside marriage defined as a sin?

Are you saying it is fornication? If so, where is the scripture to say so?
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/18/10


alan of uk...here you go:

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinth 6:13 Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

1 Corinthians 10:8 - Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 - For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
---Donna5535 on 11/18/10


Donna ... Where in the Bible does it say it is a sin.
Did you read my posts?
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/18/10


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\\My own sins I repent for them in sackcloth and ashes,\\

Literally? I don't think God is pleased with self-imposed penances.

In any case, God will have to deal with their hearts, not us. I know I wouldn't know these people if I met them on the streets, and I doubt if you would, either.
---Cluny on 11/17/10


Cluny, you asked: Donna, do your own sins mean that you don't "truly and really belong to Jesus"?

My own sins I repent for them in sackcloth and ashes, show remorse for them and TURN away from them. We are talking about a continual sin here on this question. I don't continually do the same exact sin over and over again, day to day, etc., Once I realize my sin, I repent quickly.

Paul said, "I do the things I don't wish to do, it is my flesh doing it." There is a difference between continual sin (fornication) and a Christian sinning, realizing it, and then repenting and turning away from the sin.

Alan of uk - it is deliberate because they have chosen to get in the same bed together without being married.
---Donna5535 on 11/17/10


Renee, you're not called upon to really have an opinion about your adult son's actions and choices, since they are NOT your responsibility.

Nor is it productive to seek affirmation on these boards or elsewhere for your opinions now.

Would you prefer they simply not get married?
---Cluny on 11/17/10


The general divorce rate hovers around 50%. They now want to get married. At least they know what they are getting into and if living together helps the chance of a successful marriage leave them alone.
---Blogger9211 on 11/16/10


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\\Cluny, I see what the other posters mean about you now. Instead of you answering the blog question, you pick on someone else's response.\\

Are you denying what I actually said, Donna?

\\Living together is a deliberate sin, yes I sin, but when I do, I quickly repent and TURN from the sin.\\

Then show them the same forbearance the Lord shows to you, and allow them as much time as He allows for them to repent.
---Cluny on 11/16/10


Donna5535 .... WHY is it a deliberate sin?
(SE my recent post)
Presumably you say it is fornication? But can you justify that by scripture?
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/16/10


Cluny, I see what the other posters mean about you now. Instead of you answering the blog question, you pick on someone else's response.

Living together without being married is a deliberate sin. Meaning it's a choice they made to move in together, sleep together, etc.,

Of course I'm a sinner, I'm the first one to stand up and say, "against thee only have I sinned and done what is evil in thy sight oh God," (Just ask God Cluny).

You twist what I said and then make it look like I think I'm not a sinner - that's SICK Cluny!

Living together is a deliberate sin, yes I sin, but when I do, I quickly repent and TURN from the sin.
---Donna5535 on 11/16/10


\\There was an official public record of all marriages...or we could not have had the genealogy of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels.
---Donna66 on 11/15/10\\

Oh, really?

No way they couldn't have been private and traditional? (There are inconsistencies and gaps in both geneologies.)
---Cluny on 11/16/10


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Son and future daughter-in-law are adults. Butt out. They are responsible before God for their behavior, and they don't answer to you anymore.
---Trish on 11/15/10


As Candice says, in Biblical times there were no marriage certificates, and betrothed couples lived together, witout sin.

She then suggests that nowadays they are sinning, because Jesus said we must obey the law of the land. But the law of the land does not say living together unmarried is unlawful.

Logically then, living together unmarried is not sinful.

Not that I would ever do it, nut I do find it difficult to condemn a committed couple.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/15/10


Candace -- There may not have been "marriage licenses" in Jesus day, but rest assured there was a difference between marriage and "living together". Remember Jesus said to the woman at the well, Jhn 4:18 " For thou hast had five husbands, and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: And if living together without marriage was OK, Joseph would have had no dilemma about Mary.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
There was an official public record of all marriages...or we could not have had the genealogy of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels.
---Donna66 on 11/15/10


\\If one truly and really belongs to Jesus, would they really live together in sin without being married?\\

Donna, do your own sins mean that you don't "truly and really belong to Jesus"?

Or do they mean you're like the rest of us: a work in progress?

Or perhaps (even worse), you think that your own sins are not as grave as those of other people?

As far as what they are doing in their own home, I don't have x-ray vision at any distance, and I don't think you do, either.
---Cluny on 11/15/10


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//Christians sin all the time, Donna.

Haven't you heard?//
---Cluny on 11/15/10

Oh I've heard Cluny and I've seen Christians living in sin, but the TRUE BRIDE of Christ would be convicted of such a sin, amen?

If one truly and really belongs to Jesus, would they really live together in sin without being married? Which means they are not truly HIS. They seek after their own desires (of their own flesh). They do not seek after the will of God, amen?
---Donna5535 on 11/15/10


Did God also tell her she and he both need to repent? And turn from their sin?

I don't think God told her to "do it then."

---Donna5535 on 11/15/10

NO.

"Living together before marriage" is like playing with "gasoline and matches".

It is unlikely that such a marriage would last long-term. Just like it is unlikely that you would not have an uncontrolled gasoline fire and explosion.

If you really love your son, you would explain this to him. However, I know that parents can only advise their children. They can't make their children's decisions.

I would pray for your son, that he would make the RIGHT decision here. Live apart from his future bride.
---Sag on 11/15/10


\\How can they be Christians and be living together?\\

Christians sin all the time, Donna.

Haven't you heard?

In any case, the word translated as "fornication" (porneia) in most English Bibles properly means "prostitution".
---Cluny on 11/15/10


the sin only applies to Chrisitans. If they were Godly people & ignored what he said then yes. However back in the days of jesus people were betrothed & still lived together. Marriage certificates weren't available, it was an agreement between the parents & the couples. God already considers them married. however again God told us through his osn we must obey the laws of the land we dwell in ,so them being married legally is the way to go.
---candice on 11/15/10


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Did God also tell her she and he both need to repent? And turn from their sin?

I don't think God told her to "do it then."

There needs to be TRUE REPENTENCE here or else no matter what day or date they get married, their sin remains until it is repented for.

Repent means to turn away from, "go and sin no more."

How can they be Christians and be living together? The bible tells us in Hebrews fornicators and adulterers will be judged.
---Donna5535 on 11/15/10


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