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Are True Christians Sinless

Are genuine Christians sinless? Please give Scripture to what you believe.

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 ---Mark_V. on 11/16/10
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As a Christian who lives through faith in the work of the Cross, I know I have been SET FREE from sin. I am reconciled, sin is not counted, not imputed, I am dead to it.
To say we are still sinners is denial and lack of faith in the Cross. (Your salvation depends on your faith IN HIM.)
Its all your faith in HIM/Cross. HE is the only way.
HE didnt leave you high and dry as a sinner. HE came to set you free from sin.
Why do people try and quote scripture to deny this fact? Sad... There is no faith to begin with. Why argue this very basic fact towards salvation? If your not set free from sin, YOU DIE.
---duane on 11/22/10


Christ the Innocent is proven to be 100% perfect, and we the born-again are the manifested and proven righteousness from him.
Rm.8:33+ I Jn.3:7+ 4:17: "Who will call accusation against God's elect? God whom justifies. Little children, let no person deceive you: whoever that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment:
because as he is, so are we in this world."
Matthew 25:46 And the Lord says: The cursed shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 13:43 The Lord says Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun
---Eloy on 11/22/10


Shawn T, great answer brother. Always happy to hear from you. Blessings to you.
---Mark_V. on 11/22/10


-- MarkV :

Brother, "In truth, there's only one Christian, and He Died{sinless} on the Cross." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche Everyone who is Saved is a member of His Body !!!

Rom.3:19-21 Gal.3:24-25 reveals through Faith, in/of our Lord, we are no longer under the law of the knowledge of sin... and sin is not imputed when there's no law. Rom.5:13

Even though our flesh may not always appear to walk perfectly obedient to God's Word, the morality in our hearts from the Principle Thing, which is Wisdom, keeps us Sealed with the Holy Spirit until we redeem the Promised inheritance.

To realize the truth of morality in Wisdom, key in on verse 19 of Rom.3:13-19 in conjunction with Job 28:28, along with Rom.6:16.
---ShawnM.T. on 11/21/10


Richard ... It was not I who claims to be sinless!
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/22/10




Mark_V
You said, "..you are not sons since you claim to be perfect without sin.

But God says 1John3:6-9 Those born of God CANNOT sin.
If Duane, David, Eloy, Richard believe on Jesus, then they are born of God 1John5:1 and "CANNOT sin. Their old man is crucified so the body of sin might be destroyed Rom6:6. They are dead to the law Rom7:4 and set free from it Rom8:2. Where there is NO law there is NO transgression (sin) Rom4:15.

In our flesh dwells no good thing Rom7:18. Fortunately the old man is dead and God sees Christ in us.
---Haz27 on 11/22/10


There is no punishment left for those in Christ. Also, since we are dead to sin.
Sin is not imputed
---duane on 11/21/10

Duane
Thankyou my friend, for your giving me an honest answer to my question.
Now, I have a reason why committed sin's don't seem to matter to many believer's.

Duane, I am not taking a shot here, but I wanted you to read the following verse.
(Jude 1:4)
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

---David on 11/22/10


What does it matter? If you are one of the "chosen ones" as predestinationalists believe, then you can continue in sin and never be lost. If you are one who believes in OSAS and does not believe that Christians are required to obey the Ten Commandment Law of the Bible, then you have a lifelong liscense to sin as you wish. If you believe that your church grants you an indulgence to sin, then pay up and go for it all.

Of course, you could be wrong. And there is a judgement coming, after all.
---jerry6593 on 11/22/10


Haz, I believe we have two natures, our old adam and our New. When Paul said, I DIE DAILY, he was talking about the old nature not our new. My life NOW that i live in the flesh I live by FAITH of Jesus Christ in me.

I believe from other discussions with MarkV, that he does not believe we still have two natures. Paul clearly teaches in Romans 6-8 that we do. But Calvinism, and I have sat under many, do not teach or understand romans 6-8, nor did Calvin himself understand it. If Calvin HAD, he would have realized he was in the old flesh nature when he murdered people, and the Christ he claimed lived in him would not have allowed him to go on without conviction of sin.
---kathr4453 on 11/22/10


Kathr4453.
Based on your other posts I had thought you understood why1John3:6-9 says Christians do not sin. And 1John 1:8,9 you quoted is not in context.

Mark_V realises that God sees Christ in us. The next step is to "henceforth we know no man after the flesh" 2Cor5:16.

And as the many scriptures I have raised in earlier posts say, we are "dead to", "free from" sin, and "where there is no law there is no transgression". This is because of the cross. It is God who justifies.

Duanne has said he is in a body of sin and death still. Rom 7 speaks how the flesh cant do right. That is why we are delivered through Christ alone.
---Haz27 on 11/21/10




ALAN 8566 - YOU claim to be sinless -

1 JOHN 1:7 But if we walk in the light,as he is in the light, we have fellowship one another, And the blood of JESUS CHRIST his Son cleanseth us FROM ALL SIN.
( Alan what sin did Christ pay for? - ALL - that future and past Once a person given a new soul they dont want to sin, But can because the still have a body that lust after sin, big example David)

GALATIANS 5:28 But if ye are lead by the spirit are not under the law.
---RICHARD on 11/21/10


David, you Duane and Eloy are too far ahead of everyone else. You have been made pure and perfect and the rest of us have not. So I suppose discussing anything with you guys is useless after all. You can never be wrong and always perfect. If you are then you are not sons of God. Did you know that?

"If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? "But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons,"
In the case of all three of you, you are perfect without sin. God cannot chasten you. First, you are not partakers. Second, then you are not sons since you claim to be perfect without sin.
---Mark_V. on 11/21/10


If christians today have achieved sinless perfection here the moment we are saved, then WHY are we to die daily? Why are we told to walk in the spirit SO THAT we don't give way to our old flesh sinful impulses?

Why are we asked to CONFESS our sin and God is faithful to Forgive? Why are we warned that if we say WE(CHRISTIANS) have no sin, we are LIARS!

come on duane. That's all alan and many want to hear you say! We still sin.
---kathr4453 on 11/21/10


JackB
Peter, in Gal 2 was blamed in that he, was going back under law "fearing them which were of the circumcision". Gal 2:16 explains further, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ".

You said, 'If we were perfect and sinless we would need no further instruction after accepting Christ."
If this were true God would not chastise us.
But, only through Christ we have right standing with God. No works that we can do in our flesh can do this. The flesh is not able to do it, as Paul describes in Rom 7.

Unfortunately, works often creeps back in and scripture warns us to beware of it. The "habitual sin" doctrine is one such case.
---Haz27 on 11/21/10


David,I would presume not since the word say, there is no punishment left for those in Christ. Also, since we are dead to sin.
Sin is not imputed
---duane on 11/21/10


Duane ... You claim to be sinless.

Does that mean you no longer sin?

I beleive you do still sin, and that means you are sinner, although God will not regard you as a Sinner.

Please for once, can you be clear on this?

DO YOU SIN?

Note ... the Bible says only Jesus is sinless
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/21/10


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The only "SIN" that Christ removed was the Adamic sin passed on to us from our ancestors. To qualify for this, one must declare belief in Christ!
Day to day sins are nullified by asking for forgiveness on an if and when basis!
No one is automatically exempt!
To think otherwise is to fool yourself!
---1st_cliff on 11/21/10


Most dont seem to understand the reason they had to be born again. I was born again so I could be sinless with a new mind and heart towards God therefore obtain salvation.---duane on 11/21/10

Duane
I agree, most do not understand why they need to be born again.
I guess my real question is this:
If someone sins after they are born again, and yet are called sinless by God, is there any punishment for these sins?
---David on 11/21/10


David,
In Adam(flesh) all men,(me also) are and will continue to sin FOREVER. Thats why most here claim they are sinners. They cant get over what Adam did to them. Most dont seem to understand the reason they had to be born again. I was born again so I could be sinless with a new mind and heart towards God therefore obtain salvation.
We are now DEAD to sin because of the new birth/Cross/Resurrection
---duane on 11/21/10


Haz27, was Peter saved?


Galatians 2:11,14

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed..

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?


One who is sinless cannot have blame placed upon him.

Theres also specific sin that Paul mentions he commited against one of the churches in his epistles and asked for their forgiveness... Cant think of the scripture right off hand but Ill get it
---JackB on 11/20/10


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//Either we are sinners under Adam's disobedience or we are righteous under Christ's obedience.
---Haz27 on 11/20/10
//

You are both until your the body is redeemed.

Thats why there are thousands of scriptures to help us know the right thing to do in our Christian lives.

If we were perfect and sinless we would need no further instruction after accepting Christ.
---JackB on 11/20/10


Haz ... What you say just does not make sense. YOu say that the flesh does things that are wrong, and that God chastises, but you still insist that you do not sin!

So you must be saying that whatever wrong you do, you are not sinning.

That sounds to me like cynical hypocrisy and a complete lack of responsibility for your own actions.

Duane attacked Mark for apparently saying we are two persons ... but that seems to be exactly what you are claiming.
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/21/10


This is who I am now, a new creation, set free from sin. I live IN a body of sin and death but that person/nature was crucified with Christ back in 1965. ---duane on 11/20/10

Duane
Thankyou
I have always wondered why people believe as you do, and in your post you have answered half, of my long sought after question.

Now with that said, I hope you can answer this half of the question for me.
You say that it is not you who sins, but it's your body, that sins.

Now since it is not you, but your body that sin's, does that mean that your not accountable for your sin?

I will not debate you, on your answer, I just want an answer to the question.








---David on 11/21/10


Mark_V and Mima
Duanne is right, we are a new creation.
2Cor 5:16, 17 "henceforth we know no man after the flesh"
You know how God sees us and that's what we should see in each other. Even though the flesh does things wrong, remember it was crucified with Christ. And don't be concerned that this liberty is a licence to get away with wrongdoing. God chastises, just like with King David.

John1:29 "Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY the sin of the world".
John8:34-36 "Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. And the servant does not abide in the house for ever: but the Son abides ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed"
---Haz27 on 11/20/10


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Hazel & Duane ... The Bible abounds with statements that there is no-one sinless other than Jesus.

Do you claim that you never sin? I don't believe that you never sin.

You are sinners, but will be regarded by God a sinless.

Mark ... I wonder if they really mean that whatever they do, even if for example they rob and murder, that is not a sin, because by definition they cannot sin? That of course would be an extreme & total misunderstanding of OSAS, but is used by some as an excuse for wilful sinful behaviour
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/20/10


JackB
Rom 7 says flesh does wrong. Paul asked "who shall DELIVER me".
Read verse 5,6 "when we WERE in the flesh". But, "NOW we are DELIVERED"
Rom7:4 "DEAD to the law by the body of Christ"
Rom6:7 "he that is DEAD is FREED from sin"

IJohn3:4 "sin is transgression of the law", and "what the law says it says to those under it" Rom3:19. BUT, "I am crucified with Christ" Gal 2:20. Your old man is dead.

Rom6:19 "by one man's disobedience many were made SINNERS, so by the obedience of one shall many be made RIGHTEOUS"

Either we are sinners under Adam's disobedience or we are righteous under Christ's obedience.
---Haz27 on 11/20/10


Mark,You seem to be making the statement that there are 2 of YOU and 1 will always be a sinner and the other is sinless. You prefer to claim yourself the sinner under Adam. I prefer to claim myself sinless under Christ.I make the statement there is only 1 of me now. This is who I am now, a new creation, set free from sin. I live IN a body of sin and death but that person/nature was crucified with Christ back in 1965. I hope you understand.
---duane on 11/20/10


*Mima
Yes, your right, Christians do not sin "because of the work of Christ". We are a new creature.
But regarding the flesh
Rom7,4 "ye are become DEAD to the law"
Rom7:6 "now we are DELIVERED from the law".
Rom6:7 "he that is DEAD is FREED from sin"
Gal 5:18 "you are NOT UNDER THE LAW"
Rom4:15 "where there is NO law there is NO transgression" (sin)*


Haz
Since the Gospels of Jesus Christ are the foundation of all New Testament teachings in the Bible, can you give us a single verse from the Gospels that supports this teaching?



---David on 11/20/10


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Did anyone stop to think about the conscious? What may be sin for one, might not be sin for another. Haz, do you believe this? Are you saying that when you sin, it is not sin to you anymore? Or are you saying you just don't sin at all? I'm not asking what God sees in you, for God sees Christ in you and Christ has no sin. But how about you really? Do you still sin? Same question to Duane? Are you really stating that you have reached the state of glorification already?
---Mark_V. on 11/20/10


You can honestly read this chapter and not see how this man stuggled with his flesh?


22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


He hated it but he was honest enough with himself and the Lord to not deny his own sin. He had the truth in him.

1 John 1:8,9

Our spirit which is reborn by the Holy Spirit does not sin... the flesh however still does. Jesus condemned sin IN the flesh (Romans 8:3).
---JackB on 11/19/10


JackB
Romans7 is a good message about the body of death that Christ has delivered us from.
But I dont grasp how you think that Paul was a sinner (transgressor of the law)though. Paul had died to the law. He was a new creature.

---Haz27 on 11/18/10


JackB
Sorry if my point below from earlier post was not clear.
In that post I said:
"..people feel condemned due to false teachings that Christians sin and, we know those who sin are of the devil 1John3:8

You responded with: "Unless of course you think Paul is in hell right now"

Your response above was exactly what I meant in my point. The false teaching that Christians "sin" brings them into condemnation when they read scriptures like 1John3:8 "those who sin are of the devil"
---Haz27 on 11/19/10


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//Mark_Eaton
You said, "people feel condemned because they have been told Christians do not sin." Probably true. Why? Because of the false teaching that Christians still sin regardless of the cross.
But many more people feel condemned due to false teachings that Christians sin and, we know those who sin are of the devil 1John3:8. //


Go read a chapter from a Christian man, saved by the blood of Christ and his struggle with sin. It should help you some. Unless of course you think Paul is in hell right now.

Roman chapter 7. An entire chapter dedicated to Christian sin
---JackB on 11/18/10


When Jesus became sin for us, , Jesus cried out." My God, My God why has thou forsaken me. It was at that moment God looked away.

Much of the types and shaddows of the OT sanctuary/priesthood also shows God cannot look at sin.

Man became separated from God at the fall. NO ONE can come to the Father except through His son. NO ONE was allowed into teh Holy of Holies except the High Priest..FOR the sins of the people. The VEIL was closed. However when Jesus sacrifice was accepted, teh veil was rent from top to Bottom, signifying the way into the Holy of Holies was OPEN. Now because of Christ and His blood The mercy seat is open for business for anyone to come boldly to the throne of Grace reconcilling man back to God.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/10


God cant even look at sin much less Christ living in you(salvation).
---duane on 11/18/10

I have heard this sentence many times, that God cannot even look at sin.

Do you have a Biblical reference for this statement? I have not found such a reference.

If God is truly sovereign over all things, would that not include disobedience to His Word and His Will? Is not sin simply disobedience to God?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/18/10


Mark_Eaton
You said, "people feel condemned because they have been told Christians do not sin." Probably true. Why? Because of the false teaching that Christians still sin regardless of the cross.
But many more people feel condemned due to false teachings that Christians sin and, we know those who sin are of the devil 1John3:8.

Are you suggesting we toss Bible versions that say Christians "DO NOT sin"?
Do Christians have to learn Greek to understand Scriptures?

Or is it that even using the word "continues" in 1John3:6-9, in the right context, means Christians do not "continue" being under the law. Remember Rom 4:15 "where there is NO law there is NO transgression" (sin).
---Haz27 on 11/18/10


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Mima
Yes, your right, Christians do not sin "because of the work of Christ". We are a new creature.

But regarding the flesh
Rom7,4 "ye are become DEAD to the law"
Rom7:6 "now we are DELIVERED from the law".
Rom6:7 "he that is DEAD is FREED from sin"
Gal 5:18 "you are NOT UNDER THE LAW"
Rom4:15 "where there is NO law there is NO transgression" (sin)

Hence why 1John3:6-9 says Christians do not sin. God sees Christ in us and thats what Christians should see in each other. The "old man" was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be DESTROYED" Rom 6:6.
I trust your "old man" has been destroyed?
---Haz27 on 11/18/10


I pointed out your mistake concerning what JESUS said, then you go off on a tangent with something that Paul said.---James_L

James
Sorry if I seemed smug in my reponse, I assure you, It was written in frienship.

I used Paul to confirm that the fruit Jesus mentions in (Matthew 7) is in fact, behavior.
When you Look at the following verse, notice that the trees that do not produce good fruit are thrown into the fire.
(Matthew 7:19)
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."


Now, if you read (Revelation 21:8) you can see a list of those who will be cast into the fire.
Notice All of them are behavior problems.
---David on 11/18/10


Why do christians pray to be forgiven of their sins?-If they are sinless.
---earl on 11/18/10


Verses from Romans 7, he who have ears let him hear...

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
---christan on 11/18/10


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We are either saved(have life) or we are sinners(death) there is no in between.
God cant even look at sin much less Christ living in you(salvation). This is why Christ had to come and set us free from sin. To say we have 2 natures is dead wrong. The good(Christ) overcame the bad(sin). We are now dead to the old(sin) so we can be alive to God.
No man can claim to be a sinner and still be alive to God. That would truely be a lie.
Its just horrible that some claiming Christians still believe they are sinners and claim salvation at the same time.
NO sin shall ever, ever enter.
Claim victory over sin through Christ. its yours NOW.
---duane on 11/18/10


Discernment screams in my ear that these statements by---Neil_Heacock are true,
"As genuine, born again Believers we are both sinful and sinless. This is because we have 2 natures: The spirit and the flesh.

In the spirit, we are holy, blameless, above reproach - because of the work of Christ. Col 1:22

In the flesh, we are carnal, sinful and sin is working in us. Gal 5:17, Rom 7:22-23.
---mima on 11/18/10


The "habitual sin" explanation of 1John1:8-10 and 1John3:6-9 is misleading and contradicts who Christians are in Christ.
---Haz27 on 11/17/10

I disagree.

A lot of false teaching has come from a misunderstand of 1 John 3:9. Many people feel condemned because they have been told Christians do not sin.

The present participle tense of a verb in Greek indicates a continuous, repeated action. The action is being performed over, and over, and over.

If we read 1 John 3:9 using the knowledge of the Greek verb tense, here is our reading:

1 John 3:9 "no one who is born of God continually sins, because His seed abides in him and he cannot go on continually sinning because he is born of God".
---Mark_Eaton on 11/18/10


"Joseph.... look at the Christians you know (maybe even look at yourself)." ---Donna66 on 11/17/10 :o)
Donna, I have stated my beliefs, and I only look at myself.
I only view myself positionally, for Christ in me, is my only hope of glory.
I know I have been cleansed, therefore I have no consciousness of sin.
My focus is on the righteousness of "God", 'in Christ'.
I trust Father's Word, as it is written. His word, "I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them." Eze 36:27
I know I have received His Spirit, and I trust Him with the rest. I know that the aforementioned process is in effect, for my mind is being renewed daily.
---josef on 11/18/10


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As genuine, born again Believers we are both sinful and sinless. This is because we have 2 natures: The spirit and the flesh.

In the spirit, we are holy, blameless, above reproach - because of the work of Christ. Col 1:22

In the flesh, we are carnal, sinful and sin is working in us. Gal 5:17, Rom 7:22-23.

There are many very real dichotomies in the Scripture:
First will be last, leader will be servant, be humble yet be confident, walk in fear before God yet boldly come to the throne, walk in authority yet submit one to another, and many more like these. They aren't contradictions, they are dual realities and our sinlessness/sinfulness is one of them.
---Neil_Heacock on 11/18/10


Of course, the born again Christian is sinless. There is no doubt. If you know why HE came and what HE did for you, there would be no questions.
So many here just look for scripture to try and negate the power of the Cross. Its finished but some still live in unbelief.
We have been made righteous through HIM.
The old man(in adam) has died, we are now a new creation.
If you still claim to be a sinner after being born again, you have more faith in what Adam did TO you than what Christ did FOR YOU.
HE came to set you free from sin. Now consider yourself DEAD to sin.
---duane on 11/18/10


Christians are born of the Holy Spirit, therefore his spirit becomes sinless on regeneration. His flesh is on it's way to death because God cursed Adam at Eden, but his soul is being sanctified by God to teach and prepare him for God's Kingdom. That's why our earthly body is called the body of death and when he goes to "sleep", he is then set free and awaits the new and glorified body when Christ comes and he is made whole for eternity.

"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it." (1 Thess 5:23,24)

This is the work of God alone.
---christan on 11/17/10


\\James
Really?
Then tell us, what are the fruit's which are aroused by the sinful passions?
(Romans 7:5)
"For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death."\\
---David on 11/17/10

Nice try, David, but I pointed out your mistake concerning what JESUS said, then you go off on a tangent with something that Paul said. Shame on you. But if you read the same passage you started with (Matt 7) you should see that you wre wrong. Jesus also mentioned fruit in John 15, but in a different context from Matt 7, and it meant something different.
---James_L on 11/17/10


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David, this "fruit" that Jesus spoke of was not behavior. It Has nothing to do with sinful behavior.
---James_L on 11/17/10

James
Really?
Then tell us, what are the fruit's which are aroused by the sinful passions?
(Romans 7:5)
"For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death."
---David on 11/17/10


1John1: 8-10 is often mis-quoted as proof Christians "sin". The fact that theses verses contradict 1John3:6-9 is usually explained away with the "habitual sin" doctrine.

1John1 should be read from the beginning and not just a few scriptures out of context.
It's context is declaring "eternal life" so that "you also may have fellowship". Verse 6 onwards speaks in general "we" terms to those in darkness. It is those in darkness who do not have fellowship with the Father who are still in sin.

The "habitual sin" explanation of 1John1:8-10 and 1John3:6-9 is misleading and contradicts who Christians are in Christ.
---Haz27 on 11/17/10


Read the entire New Testament. Specifically the book of Romans,Ephesians,Galatians,I John. I would start with Romans.
---Robyn on 11/17/10


Josepn--
I believe the scriptures you quote describe the position of the Christian believer before his God... because "Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many." Hbr 9:28

But if you believe that the Christian does nothing that displeases God... look at the Christians you know (maybe even look at yourself).
---Donna66 on 11/17/10


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"1John3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin..."

The above speaks of the Holy Spirit that dwells the Christian.

The fact that the flesh is still sinful will be changed," at the twinkling of an eye" when we give up this physical body and obtain a glorious celestial body.
---mima on 11/17/10


As Ignatius has pointed out, most of 1 John is written with the present participle form of the verb sin, which means habitually sinning or having a lifestyle of sinning.

The view here is important. From God's view, we ARE sinless:

Ps 103:12 "As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us"

His desire is for us to be sinless:

Matt 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"

From our view, we are not sinless:

James 3:2 "For we all stumble in many ways If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well"
---Mark_Eaton on 11/17/10


Linda, you did a great job in exlaining your points. This is a great topic, that is explained in many passages more clearly then in others. You put them together to make a great answer.
---Mark_V. on 11/17/10


RICHARD,

Read the entire epistle. Saint John the Theologian did not believe Christians were sinless (1 John 1:8-9). The Greek word used in the passage you quoted is POION, which means habitual. In other words, It is not that we never, ever sin, but that when we sin we are to recognize that as Christians, this is something we must stop doing. If we keep doing it over and over, we are not really being Christians.

A literal translation of 1 John 3:8-9 would be "Everyone whoas been born of God does not keep on doing sin. He is not able to go on sinning" St. John's use of the tense here is in the habitual sense, not absolute.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/16/10


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ALL HAVE SINNED

Yes from time to time christian do fall short of keeping the commandments of God, but the duifference between a christian and a none christian: the christian seeks forgiveness for all his sin, and does not say he has no sin, or has not sinned

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
---francis on 11/16/10


\\(Matthew 7:18)
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Is sin Good Fruit?\\
---David on 11/16/10

David, this "fruit" that Jesus spoke of was not behavior. It was a warning against false teachings about entering heaven. "Enter through the narrow gate...Beware of false prophets...you will know them by their fruits...Many will say to me Lord, Lord...I will say I never knew you" (Matt 7:13-23)

He was saying that bad fruit is the teaching that we can obey God well enough to enter heaven. That's what the religious leaders of that day taught. Has nothing to do with sinful behavior.
---James_L on 11/17/10


"Are genuine Christians sinless?" Yes.
Jesus "bare our sins in his own body, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:" 1Pe 2:24
For "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us [has] turned to his own way, [yet] the Lord 'has' laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isa 53:6
"So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many." Hbr 9:28
Therefore "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" Rom 6:2
"For he who has died has been 'freed from sin'." Rom 6:7
And [the believer has] died, "and [our] life is hidden with Christ in God."
For "He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." 1Jo 3:5
---josef on 11/17/10


MarkV
Excellent topic. Linda hit the nail right on the head when she wrote:

\\Sin dwells in the members. In regards to nature (spirit), the saint is without sin for he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.\\

Those who quote 1John 3:9 are right. Someone born of God (partakers of the divine nature, born again, new creation, washed, regenerated, new heart, new spirit) cannot sin. All those descriptions are speaking of our spirit, which is sinless.

But, those who quote 1John 1:8 are right too. We still have this flesh, in which there is no good thing (Rom 7:18). It will not be sinless until our resurrection.

Paul never wrote to the sinners at Rome, Ephesus, Corinth, etc. He wrote to the saints.
---James_L on 11/17/10


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Richard is right, 1John3:9 those born of God do not sin.

Unfortunately it is a scripture often distorted by the false doctrine of "habitual sin".

God's truth is, 1John5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"

1John3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin..."
---Haz27 on 11/17/10


Many of you believe that you are born of God, and yet you sin.
God lives in you, and yet you do Evil?
If this is true, you must also believe God is Evil, for this is the only logical conclusion one can draw.

Those of You who believe this, can not possibly believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, because Jesus never taught such foolishness.
You also believe that obedience to God has nothing to do with your Salvation.

Here is what Jesus taught on that subject.
(John 8:51)
"Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.
---David on 11/17/10


1 JOHN 3:9 Whosoever is born of GOD doth not commit sin, for his seen remaineth in him,because he is born of GOD.
---RICHARD on 11/16/10


\\For He also finds fault with His [angels]. \\

catherine, please tell us where it's based in the Bible that God finds fault with angels.

And why did you put the word angels in brackets? Did you think it would make the word more important?
---Cluny on 11/16/10


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Romans 7 shows that Paul committed sins, after his conversion.
---Trish on 11/16/10


I beg to differ. I have been declared not guilty because my advocate perfectly presented my case as my substitute and took my punishment...and made me a new creature. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. No sin imputed, no guilty charge and no condemnation.
---Linda on 11/16/10


Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses,(Past tense)
---michael_e on 11/16/10


Mark_V
you said 7/10/10 under "Do we pay for sin". "Haz, let me say that we discussed this subject last night in our Bible study class. Many said the same thing you are saying. Others said what I was saying. But our pastor was there and he made it clear, that what you were saying is very true."

In that blog I had been discussing with you scriptures which show that Christians DO NOT "sin", as defined by God. Did you change your mind or did I misunderstand you?

And yes, true Christians do not sin (1John3:6-9). God says it, I believe it.
---Haz27 on 11/16/10


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(Matthew 7:18)
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Is sin Good Fruit?
---David on 11/16/10


I know that we will always be found guilty in God's eyes. For He also finds fault with His [angels]. However, what keeps the truly chosen Christians within God's favor is, we have the Blood of Jesus, right, to go to the Father in Jesus' name and beg for forgiveness, and here is the wonderful part: He is just to forgive us [Bible based].
---catherine on 11/16/10


Sin dwells in the members. In regards to nature (spirit), the saint is without sin for he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. We can follow the dictates of the flesh and sin, therefore we cannot say we have no sin. However, we can be led by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. To whom you yield your members as servants to obey, you are slaves to whom you obey whether of sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. What is not of faith is sin and faith works through love. We sin when we do not yield to the righteous leading of the Spirit of God and walk in love. Until we come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, there is still a degree of not walking in perfect love toward all men.
---Linda on 11/16/10


Christians and non-Christians alike are NEVER sinless. Jesus Christ is the ONLY sinless one. Paul said "the things that I do not want to do, I do, and the things that I want to do, I don't do". Also in 1 John 1:8-10 refer to Christians also having sin. Most people twist scripture on this, like in 1 John 3:6,8-9 - this is actually talking about wanting to sin, NOT that we do not sin. If you want to sin as a Christian, you do NOT belong to God. If you belong to God, you will HATE sin. Christians sin on a DAILY basis, and the Word proves it. This is why DAILY confession and repentance of sin is REQUIRED - santification is an on-going, DAILY thing.
---Leslie on 11/16/10


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Christians are NOT perfect or sinless. Jesus Christ is the ONLY one that is perfect and sinless. If you do not believe me, how many say they are Christians - what do you think about everyday (are your thoughts pure or unpure)?, what do you do everyday (do you do good or bad)?, what do you speak everyday (do you speak negative or positive)?, what do you watch or listen to daily (is it pure or unpure)?, what are your motives and attitudes like (do you do things for the right reasons or the wrong reasons), (when your boss/teacher/parent ask you to do something, do you do it happily or angry)? This is just a test to see how many Christians still say they don't sin daily.
---Leslie on 11/16/10


1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Mark, John is speaking to Christians here...if he's telling Christians "if we confess our sins" then we must on occasion sin, right?

We are not sinless unless you know something that I don't .
---Donna5535 on 11/16/10


Past:
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Present:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Present Perfect:
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

search your own hearts with these Scriptures, then you will understand the need for a Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace...Emmanuel...God is with us.
---aka on 11/16/10


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