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Salvation By Faith Alone

For those of you who believe in salvation, regeneration and justification by faith alone, how do you know that your own faith is sufficient in quality or quantity to accomplish this?

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 ---Cluny on 11/26/10
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MarkV, I know you don't KNOW EVERYTHING therefore you can admit you can't SEE something yet.

It doesn't mean it's not there.

It only means YOU don't get it.

Maybe because you climbed over some other way.

However those who came THROUGH the Cross understand it completely!
---kathr4453 on 12/23/10


Kathr, I am not looking for an answer to anything. I wanted to convey that when you speak you string along passages with different context to each other. Speaking religiously can get you in trouble because you want to convey something with different passages. Pastors and teach sting along passages but only those who speak of the same context. Sting along only those which speak of the same thing. Scripture interpreting Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/10


Kathr 2: Those were two complete different passages that do not say what you are saying they say. They speak of different context altogether. That is what I meant when I said that you use passages together that do not have the same context to prove something you want to point out. Both passages are truth, but speak of something completely different one from the other.
---Mark_V. on 12/22/10


The simple scriptural salvation, faith+nothing
1. Acknowledge you are sinner, "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).
2. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He died for your sins, was buried and rose again (Rom. 4:5, I Cor. 15:3,4).
---michael_e on 12/22/10


MarkV, I believe you'll find your answer in 1st cor 15,

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Cintinue reading can't post all but concludes here:

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

And read to the end of the chapter.....

Oh what an awesome plan of salvation !
---kathr4453 on 12/22/10




Kathr, you now said:

"When Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me, He meant FOLLOW me into death and resurrection life, just as John 12:24 states."

Now you are talking about another passage that has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

The passage in John 12:24 is not saying follow Me into the resurrection of life. The passage in context discribes a grain of wheat falling to the ground and dies alone. If it dies it produces fruit. So also the death of the Son of God will result in the salvation of many.
The picking of the Cross passage that you mentioned is for believers already and follow Him. The lost do not follow Christ or pick up their cross.
---Mark_V. on 12/22/10


John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


markV, however it IS found in John 12:32.

When Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me, He meant FOLLOW me into death and resurrection life, just as John 12:24 states.

Paul also said follow me the way I follow Christ. Paul taught THE POWER of the CROSS!
---kathr4453 on 12/22/10


I believe Paul put it this way..walk in the spirit and you won't give way to the flesh.

Can a person truly deny himself part from God's Spirit working through him? NO!

You see, we have many even like the RCC who through self effort carry their cross and deny thenselves.

However, those crucified with Christ will find that Matthew was making a statement realized only through Calvary.
---kathr4453 on 12/22/10


Jack, man is a free agent in that he is not forced or made to do something without him desiring to do that which he wishes to do. He does not have a free will, for he is enslaved to sin. What he chooses will be what he desires, and a lost person does not desire Christ.
Second, the word "all" peoples" in John 12:32 is the Gk. word "pas" It can mean all, the individuals, it can stand alone as in the case of Pas. Anyone and everyone, therefore anyone and everyone who hears (Matt.7:24)
Third, the word "Draw" is not found in John 12:24. The words in scripture were, "all peoples" not "all people" meaning from every nation from any country in John 12:32.
---Mark_V. on 12/22/10


alan8566... Yes man is a free agent.

I think you will find that Christ demands all that is of us, our lives, our will so that His will be done in our lives.

Remember we were brought for a price like slaves in a market place.Romans 6:16f

1 Cor. 6:19b,20 You are not your own, you were bought at a price. Therefore honour God with your body.

We are even asked to deny ourselves in following Him.

Mt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
---leej on 12/21/10




Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.//

Im happy to see that not all Calvinists are completely delusional.
---JackB on 12/18/10


It does appear markv will not challence leej on this, or accuse him of twisting scripture, yet we do see the word draw HERE USED IN JOHN 12:24.

markv, thank you for defining DRAW vs call.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/10


A part of this question" how do you know that your own faith is sufficient in quality or quantity to accomplish this?" Sounds very much to me like a cry in the dark of a man seeking.
---mima on 12/21/10


////Leej yes, "We can believe the Scripture that tells us no one can come to the Christ without the Father first draw him"But God calls (draws) all.

Very good!

Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.//

Im happy to see that not all Calvinists are completely delusional.
---JackB on 12/18/10


According to Mark V, He never said that, The Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit were ever One person. Each is one Person. All Three Persons make the Godhead. What we call the "Trinity."
So please do not misquote me as Alan and others do.

Alan said,
"//Leej yes, "We can believe the Scripture that tells us no one can come to the Christ without the Father first draw him"But God calls (draws) all."
Calls and draws have two completely different meanings. To call does not mean to draw.
Call is to summon.
Draw is "To make move toward one, to pull up, down, back, in, or out" In the case of God's word it means to pull someone in to Himself.
---Mark_V. on 12/18/10


Leej ... Yes man is a free agent.
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/17/10


//Leej yes, "We can believe the Scripture that tells us no one can come to the Christ without the Father first draw him"But God calls (draws) all.

Very good!

Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

So we may say that man as a free agent, may refuse the gracious gift of salvation and that may make sense in view of the fact that God cannot force anyone to love Him.

---leej on 12/17/10


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Its not the amount of faith, but WHO you have the faith IN that gives life.
The Gospel is to be proclaimed to all men, therefore God will draw all men unto Himself through the Gospel.

Everyone, has faith in someone or something. Lets proclaim the good news so everyone can come to Jesus Christ in faith.
---duane on 12/17/10


Leej yes, "We can believe the Scripture that tells us no one can come to the Christ without the Father first draw him"

But God calls (draws) all

And as Mark has said elsewhere "You are a free agent, what you do, will do, and when you are born and when you will die is all known by God"
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/16/10


From the moment God brings you alive to Christ, you are saved. Eph. 2:4,5 tells us what comes first when we are lost.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"
Because of His mercy and great love for "us" the elect, who will become believers, not all humanity, for the passage says, "made us alive with Christ" He didn't make everyone alive to Christ only those He was speaking about. Suddenly we come alive to Christ. How were we saved? "by grace you have been saved" Because of God's Grace the elect are given mercy while the others are not, and He did this by Grace.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/10


//why when you say one is not born again first to be saved.

Some respond to a minister call to faith, others simply find Christ in their lives, even unexpectantly.

We can believe the Scripture that tells us no one can come to the Christ without the Father first draw him.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Those that think this is only Calvinism, simply cannot navigate around the plain meaning of this verse. They like to think they are the masters of their own destiny, failing to realize God as sovereign works for His own glory and will do as He pleases with His creation.

Does God has to have our concept of what is fair? Isaiah 55:8.
---leej on 12/15/10


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kath4453 --- Most of the people who disagree with you are simply stating an opinion (which is the purpose of these blogs) NOT airing a personal grievence, as you seem to do.
I'm not a Calvinist, but I agree with them in more ways than I do free-will. I don't have all the answers...so why do I have to "take a stand"? Anyway, if I do, you will start lining up those who are "on your side" and those who aren't. I think the Bible calls it sowing discord among the brethern
Prov 6:19
---Donna66 on 12/15/10


Kath4453-- Yes, of course I understand what a principle is. What I don't understand is how you distiquish between "born again" and being "saved." If they are both the same thing, how can you speak of one coming before the other, in order to apply the principle?
It's a pointless argument to me.

You won't get anywhere with me saying, "well, MarkV said..." or "markV claims..." because I don't care enough about your ongoing conflict to remember,except in generalities, what either one of you say.
---Donna66 on 12/15/10


donna66, why when you say one is not born again first to be saved, markv says absolutely nothing to you.

BUT when Alan, jackb, Eloy, Miche, or I say it, we get read the riot act and called all sorts of things. When we then defend the truth as you also stated YOU blast us?

That is where I am confused by you. Because when we do get blasted YOU LOOK THE OTHER WAY! That's why I said TAKE a STAND!
---kathr4453 on 12/15/10


Thank you again donna66 for stating the truth, Born again and saved are the same thing.

We are first JUSTIFIED by His blood, and SAVED by His risen Life quickened in us, Born again.

But Donna I said the same PRINCIPLE applies.

You do understand the definition of principle.

If one cannot bear fruit first before they are attached to the vine, You can't be Born again first before you are saved.

Remember according to markv, God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all the same person....GOD. So who's splitting hairs ?
---kathr4453 on 12/15/10


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//And one is not born again first to be saved//

To a great many believers (those who don't waste time in hair-splitting) these are one and the same. And neither are brought about by the fruit of the Spirit.
---Donna66 on 12/14/10


Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

When one is regenerated by God's Spirit, the believer is saved and that totally by the will of God, apart from anything that we may have merited, good works, faith, church membership, parental birth, blond hair, etc.

In fact, Scripture (as well as Calvinism) teaches that believers were foreordained by God even before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4,13
---leej on 12/14/10


Fruit is a result of being a part of the vine. One does not attach himself to the vine by bearing fruit.
---Donna66 on 12/14/10

Absolutely correct donna66.

And one is not born again first to be saved. SAME principle.


One bears fruit because one is nourished by the life of the vine. Fruit cannot produce apart from being BORN on the vine.
---kathr4453 on 12/14/10


//Galatians 5:21-25 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like that happens also here on CN: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

A good warning even to yourself as all too often the pot accuses the kettle of being black, you who would proclaim yourself to be more favored of God than others on CN.
---leej on 12/14/10


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Galatians 5:21-25
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like that happens also here on CN: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatains 2:20 and john 15.

YEP only the Fruit of the Spirit, AKA Christ in you, God is looking for.

Yes He does ccertainly know who belongs to Him. They bear FRUIT!
---kathr4453 on 12/14/10


The best way for me to answer this one is to direct you to 1st Peter:1-23
The trial of your faith precedes salvation-Christ forordained to be the Redeemer.
You might have to read it over and over to get the true meaning and understanding. But it works.
---Bee on 12/14/10


1 Cor. 9:17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship.

Eph. 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Eph. 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of Gods grace that was given to me for you,

Col. 1:25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,

instead of the word 'dispendation' modern Bible versions use better terms.
---leej on 12/14/10


MarkV. Very well put.

I know my faith is sufficient the (Bible says it takes only faith as a mustard seed.)

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I believe on the Son and He is alive within me. Only DOUBT could make me wonder if this is sufficient.

Fruit is a result of being a part of the vine. One does not attach himself to the vine by bearing fruit.
---Donna66 on 12/14/10


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This statement is what I mean about saying things that are not Scriptural just to say things. Here is a statement for the day,

"God does't measure our faith, He checks our fruit/works. He checks to see if Christ is IN YOU, who alone changes us from Glory to Glory"

God checks to see if Christ is in you? Isn't Christ God? Why does God have to check if Christ is in you? Does God have to check on anything? He is after all, all knowing, Omniscient. Why would He have to check if He is in the believer? Doesn't God know where He is at?
---Mark_V. on 12/14/10


Unfortunately there are those who like the Pharisees of the day of Christ, that would use observance of the jewish sabbath ---.

---leej on 12/12/10

And those who deny we are in the dispensation of GRACE .

1 Cor 9:17
---a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him:

Eph 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Col1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God,
---kathr4453 on 12/13/10


1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

To neither accept nor understand the things of the Spirit of God sounds like a sinful nature to me.

If you do not accept or understand God's salvation, you are in a sinful nature.
---aka on 12/12/10


Nana//So brother, why can't you then understand that there is indeed a measure and a measuring stick?

Yes indeed we are even commanded to judge the behavior of those with whom we associate with.

John 24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.

The focus is on moral behavior of others, not necessarily upon all what they would believe beyond the simplicity of the gospel message.

Unfortunately there are those who like the Pharisees of the day of Christ, that would use observance of the jewish sabbath as a measuring stick of ones spirituality and that is clearly wrong.




---leej on 12/12/10


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Yes there is a measuring stick, but we are not measured one against another, but God measures us by Christ alone. We are growing up into the Fullness and stature Of Christ.

God does't measure our faith, He checks our fruit/works.

He checks to see if Christ is IN YOU, who alone changes us from Glory to Glory.
---kathr4453 on 12/11/10


"Perhaps you are addressing the concept of spiritual growth? But is that not something only God can measure?"
Not really, as Paul even gaged 'fellow brethren' as unfit to share with in meals or company. Why? Because they called themselves "brothers" but were not. So brother, why can't you then understand that there is indeed a measure and a measuring stick?
---Nana on 12/10/10


Cluny, you said,
"Aside from the fact that there is no such thing as a "sin nature,"
Cluny, I'm surprise you would say there is no sinful nature. The word "flesh" in Scripture is "sarx" and has the meaning of sinful nature, corrupt nature, the corruptibility of our present body which will be replaced with incorruptibility and etc. ignoring the facts would change the meaning of Scripture in so many passages. I can see why in the Catholic church it would matter, and it would be because of Mary. She was also sinful, she needed a Savior. For she called Christ, my Lord and my Savior. St. Augustine was right. I believe you are wrong.
---Mark_V. on 12/4/10


\\My point is that the sin nature is passed on by the act of procreation\\

Aside from the fact that there is no such thing as a "sin nature," this is one of the errors of St. Augustine (who was right in some things): namely that original sin (corrupted into "sin nature" by fundagelicostals) is passed on through the sexual act.
---Cluny on 12/2/10


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\\If this is not true, if Mary were only a surrogate, Jesus was in the form of a man as the theophonies of the OT were. Therefore, the birth process was unnecessary. He could have come as another theophony - infant or adult.\\

This teaching, btw, is the heresy of docetism.
---Cluny on 11/30/10


For those of you who believe in salvation, regeneration and justification by faith alone, how do you know that your own faith is sufficient in quality or quantity to accomplish this?

Is faith really a matter of quality or quantity - something that really cannot be quantified? What is the means of measure? Add 2 drops of water and stir and if it turns deep blue, you got what is required?

Perhaps you are addressing the concept of spiritual growth? But is that not something only God can measure?

Our faith was merely the vehicle in which we came to be in Christ, who to us has become our righteousness, sanctification, wisdom & redemption 1 Cor. 1:30.

And Christ is all that is sufficient.
---leej on 11/30/10


BTW--There's no such thing as a "sin nature."

Sin is actually UNnatural to us. It's not part of our ontology, but an add on.
---Cluny on 11/29/10


\\ And for that very reason any child born of her "egg" would necessarily inherit her sin nature.\\

Gabriel told the Virgin, "Behold, you shall conceive." Did you ever learn what the woman's part in conception was, mima?

**Cluny calls tongues of today as coming from ignorant people. **

I never said that, mima. What I said is that no connection can be demonstrated between modern glossolalia and the Biblical gift of tongues.

Claiming their identity is not proof.
---Cluny on 11/29/10


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Mima,
I am confused. On the one hand you agree with me that Mary had a sin nature. "I agree that..." On the other hand you indicate that I do not beleive this. "To accept your position..."

My point is that the sin nature is passed on by the act of procreation. Mary did not procreate with anyone. Her conception was based on the miracle of God specificaly creating the male genetic material to fertilize her egg. Therefore her sin nature was not passed on to the sinless saviour.

If this is not true, if Mary were only a surrogate, Jesus was in the form of a man as the theophonies of the OT were. Therefore, the birth process was unnecessary. He could have come as another theophony - infant or adult.
---Bruce5656 on 11/29/10


Ro 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

JackB - while true that Christ often referred to 'your faith' in healing people, the doctrines based on faith - salvation, regeneration, justification and sanctification are derived largely on the Epistles written under the inspiration of the Spirit of Christ.

While some would believe much depends upon our works of righteousness, our salvation is secure in Christ since God made Him "the source of [our] life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption." 1 Cor. 1:30

And some would reject this because this is one of the basic points made in Calvinism, is it not?
---leej on 11/29/10


\\And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. \\

JackB, salvation in Jewish thought was not about salvation from sin (nor is it today).

One was saved and redeemed by being one of the saved and redeemed people.

It was not about, to put it in fundagelicostal terms, "having a personal relationship with YHVH."

You're projecting such a view onto the Magnificat.
---Cluny on 11/29/10


Faith comes from God but yet Jesus Christ (who is God in the flesh) REPEATED used the words "your faith" when addressing people and healing them BECAUSE of their faith.


That makes no sense.
---JackB on 11/29/10


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Cluny, my faith is sufficient because it came from God. What God gives is sufficient to accomplish His purpose. It did not come from me for I never had that kind of faith. Saving faith comes as a gift from God as does repentance and justification through regeneration. It is all sufficient in quality and quantity to accomplish God's purpose. I believe that by faith in God's Word. If I had no faith in Him, I would be depending upon my own faith, and righteousness.
1. Saved by grace through faith-Eph. 2:8,9.
2. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for Him- Phil. 1:29'
3. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth....-2 Tim. 2:25,26.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/10


Luke 1:46-48

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.



Do the sinless need a saviour?
---JackB on 11/28/10


---Bruce5656 I agree that Mary had had a sin nature. And for that very reason any child born of her "egg" would necessarily inherit her sin nature. I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself. And to accept your option would make a lie out of Romans 3:23,"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," I believe that "all" includes Mary.
---mima on 11/29/10


Concerning Mary, the RCC calls Mary
Holy Mary but the Bible does not call Mary Holy. I believe Mary was highly honored among women but certainly not Holy. The RCC teaches that Mary ascended to heaven and is there now. The Bible does not say Mary ascended to heaven. Cluny calls tongues of today as coming from ignorant people. But calling me ignorant has nothing to do with whether or not what I'm saying is truth. And anyway all men are ignorant, only about different things.
---mima on 11/29/10


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Bruce, that was a great answer you gave, and it was just that problem the RCC had when they decided to make Mary sinless in order not to contaminate Jesus with sin. That is why Pope Pius lX defined the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary in "Ineffabilis Deus on Dec. 1854.
"We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the most blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful"
---Mark_V. on 11/29/10


Mima,
Have you considered that there is a third option to a sinless Mary or a Surrogate Mary?

I believe that Mary had a sinful nature as do you and I. However, I believe that that sinful nature was passed on to her by virtue of the fact that she was the product of the union of a human man and a human woman. I think this is what David was referring to when he said Psalms 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Eliminating the male contribution (provided by a creative miracle) allowed Mary to be Jesus' true mother without passing the sin nature on to him.
---Bruce5656 on 11/28/10


"Mary "EGG" was not used in that conception." (Mima)

Your view was held by some Gnostic in the early days of the Church (Saint Irenaus wrote against them in his Against Heresies). The Virgin Mary was not a surrogate Mother. And FYI, that Christ received His Flesh from the Virgin Mary in his Incarnation is in fact one of the tenet of Christianity, held by nearly all confessional Christians. The fact that you deny such a basic dogma tell me that you are in bondage to traditions of men, and will not listen to the word of God.

Please read Luke 1:31, 34-36, John 1:14, and Galatians 4:4 ("made of, a woman...").

You don't believe in the REAL Jesus Mima.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/28/10


Mima,
How do you reconcile your belief regarding the humanity of Jesus with Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." If Mary was a surrogate this verse could not be true.

Also, if Jesus did not need to receive his humanity from being the actual offspring of Mary (her seed) then why the birth at all. Why not just appear as he did to Abraham and others in the form of a man? Mary could have just found him and adopted him like the Egyptian princess found Moses.
---Bruce5656 on 11/28/10


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I believe Jesus was human and I believe in Hebrews 10:5 Jesus tells us where he got his body." Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but A BODY HAS THOU PREPARED FOR ME:"
Mary did conceive Jesus in her womb but Mary "EGG" was not used in that conception.
The whole problem between you and I is this, I do not believe Mary was sinless. If I am wrong and Mary was sinless then the RCC is correct by praying to Mary because Mary would then be a goddess(by being sinless).
Jesus himself twice refused to honor Mary above others. I'm out of room perhaps you could find out where he refused to honor her from your Bibles.
---mima on 11/28/10


Mima,

"ou are correct about what I believe."

Thank-you for admitting that you follow traditions of men, and have been indoctrinated in Evangelical Protestanism.

On your point, God prepare a body of His Son through the flesh of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos. That is what Scripture (Read Luke 1) teach and what Christians in the 1st-8th centuries profess. That is Orthodox teaching. You believe in a tradition of men. Saint Paul said Christ was birn of a women. There would be no need for her with your tradition of men.

I will be praying for you. You have much baggage hanging on you.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/28/10


Mima ... Your story makes Mary a mere Rent-a-Womb.

The Bible makes it quite clear that Mary was a true mother, and that she actually conceived Jesus.

Why do yuo downgrade Mary?
---alan8566_of_UK on 11/28/10


mima, if you do not believe that Jesus received His human nature, including His physical body, from the Virgin Mary, then you do not believe that Jesus is truly human, but a different species.
---Cluny on 11/28/10


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---IGnatius on 11/27/10

You are correct about what I believe.
I would like to address one point. You wrote"You believe that Christ received not His Flesh from the Virgin Mary, which Scripture does not teach." I believe that the Virgin Mary nurtured the body of Jesus. I believe that Jesus came through the birth canal. But I do not believe he received his flesh from Mary. I based this belief on Hebrews 10:5 and also on this statement made by Paul. Rom 7:18 " For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) DWELLETH NO GOOD THING." If Mary's flesh was different than Paul's then the Catholics are right in deifying Mary. If not they have made a terrible mistake.
---mima on 11/28/10


"I know in th RCC that the ( we call) Lords supper is given by the priest. That he has the power to turn bread into Christ's body." (Kathr)

This shows that you know very little. The Roman Catholic Church teach, in her Catechism, that the Priest has no power or magic, but everything is bought about by the Holy Spirit, having the Priest as the vessel.

Perhaps you should study Catholicism more closely.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/27/10


Mima,

You believe in the Sinner's Prayer. That is a dead work and tradition of men. You believe in Altar Calls. That is a tradition of men. You believe in Faith Alone. That is a tradition of men. You believe in Sola Scriptura. That is a tradition of men. You believe that Christ received not His Flesh from the Virgin Mary, which Scripture does not teach. That is a tradition of men. You believe that the Bible should only contain 66 books. That is a tradition of men.

I can go on and on.....

So I will praying for you. You will feel much better when all these traditions of men are off your shoulder. You have been indoctrinated in the falsehoods of Evangelical Protestantism. You have much baggage hanging on you.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 11/27/10


\\However because of tradition and indoctrination I believe you have much baggage hanging on you.\\

I believe that you have been indoctrinated by your traditions and have a lot of baggage, too, mima.

Unlike you, I cling to no traditions and precepts of men.

**I know in th RCC that the ( we call) Lords supper is given by the priest. That he has the power to turn bread into Christ's body.**

Actually, even the Roman Catholic Church teaches that transubstantiation is brought about by the Holy Spirit. The Priest himself has no power.
---Cluny on 11/27/10


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We are saved by the faith of the Lord Jesus, The Christ. See Rom 3:22,24
As believers, we are privileged with an ability to implement, exercise, or put into practice through our words and deeds, His faith, in His work and Word. See Gal. 2:20>Eph. 3:11,12
'Our' faith is simply the Father's gift to us, and that faith can be placed anywhere we choose. His Faith is established within us as we are guided to an understanding of the things of the Spirit, and that understanding is received via His Word through the inspiration, influence, and enlightenment provided thereby. See Rom.12:3>Rom. 10:17
---Josef on 11/27/10


Ignatus, I agree with mima. I know in th RCC that the ( we call) Lords supper is given by the priest. That he has the power to turn bread into Christ's body.

What this actually is is a perverted re-inactment of the OT Priesthood.
---kathr4453 on 11/27/10


Cluny your question expressed here gives me much hope.
Because of statements such as "May I suggest that our faith should rest in Jesus Himself, and not in a theory about how He saves us?"
---Cluny on 11/26/10
I have always believed you to be saved. However because of tradition and indoctrination I believe you have much baggage hanging on you. By questioning us who believe believe in salvation, regeneration and justification by faith alone you may be able to free yourself from some baggage. I have been and now am
praying for you.
---mima on 11/27/10


"Many churches teach and many people believe God's grace is something you earn by keeping the church sacraments, traditions and rituals and by doing good works. This is wrong thinking, God grace is freely poured out on all who will receive what he has done through his son on our behalf. " (mima)

I have not met any Protestant, Eastern/Latin Catholic, or a Eastern Orthodox that affirm such a belief.

So please, give one church that believe such a thing and give actual documents from that church that affirm their belief.

Awaiting your response with joyfulness......

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/26/10


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God pick some and rejected others and for salvation or retrobation is a done deal all ready and it can't be changed by any action you take now for God made his choices prior to the creation of the universe.

Christ death paid the price for God's chosen elect only, to move from one Patria Prostia into God's family with Christ as your brother as adopted children.
---Blogger9211 on 11/26/10


Faith without works is dead. The Salvation from God Is a work in process, so is praying, bible reading, attending Church, witnessing etc. Matt.24 v 13.

People do get confused, & it's not talking about a persons own self righteous works. A persons own self righteous works Are dead from the start.
---Lawrence on 11/26/10


GALATIANS 2:16 Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, BUT BY THE FAITH OF JESUS, that we might be JUSTIFITED by THE FAITH OF CHRIST. and not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

( A believer is save by the faith of JESUS not by the believers faith,because FAITH is a work that the Believer does)

1 THESSALONAINS 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith. and labor of love, ---------------
---RICHARD on 11/26/10


Many churches teach and many people believe God's grace is something you earn by keeping the church sacraments, traditions and rituals and by doing good works. This is wrong thinking, God grace is freely poured out on all who will receive what he has done through his son on our behalf. To engage in any extracurricular activity is to endorse that activity as a form of works. God speaks plainly against this saying no man will be justified by the law or works. It is not the good works themselves that are wrong it is the dependency upon those good works for your salvation.
---mima on 11/26/10


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"The amount of faith does not determine our salvation. Our salvation is determined by who or what we place our faith in. " (mima)

Very true. However, as Saint James pointed out, just believing in something or someone does not suffice for salvation (James 2). Salvation is NOT based upon a past moment of confession nor the dead recitation of a Sinner's Prayer. Rather, it is based upon one's continuous belief and obedience to the Holy Gospel, having the Holy Spirit as our helper and comforter.

"They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good." (Titus 1:16).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/26/10


Some would have you believe it is something mysterious God gives only certain people to believe.

But we see in the beginning of Hebrews 11 something very interesting. It says BY FAITH we believe the WORD of God created the world. By what mysterious substance deposited into certain people brought that about?

How do we KNOW the world was created by the WORD of God....I believe that because Genesis says so.

WOF twist it to say By Faith God created, saying God needed faith to create.

Who then did God put His faith in, to create?

Faith comes by Hearing God's word. Faith is believing what He said. If that is a WORK , then my believing God created the world must say I too created it with Him.
---kathr4453 on 11/26/10


-- Cluny :

Brother, The sufficient quality & quantity of Faith to redeem Salvation is accomplished upon accepting Christ by Faith, and it's not yours(or any ones else) OWN Faith. Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God.

Those whose Hearts are guided by the Faith of God's Word(as Abraham when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar), is Justified and their minds renewed & regenerated through being taught and brought into remembrance of the Truth, Way & Life(John 14:26) do to being Sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise until the redemption of the inheritance of Salvation.

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---Shawn.M.T. on 11/26/10


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