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Recieved Christ Then Saved

Scripture John 1:12,"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." Does this Scripture mean that we can be saved by receiving Jesus?

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 ---mima on 11/26/10
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MarkV, Names are added daily to the Lamb's Book of Life: "Peter then said to them, Righten and be baptized each of you onto the Name Jesus Christ, in forgiveness of sins, and you all will receive the gift who's Holy Spirit. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized, and the same day there were added about three thousand souls. And the Lord added to the church daily such as were being saved. Giving thanks to the Father who has delivered from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son." Act 2:38,41,47+ Col.1:13.
---Eloy on 12/3/10


No names are added to the Lamb book of life. The same names God wrote have been their from the foundation of the world. There is no special additions. If your name is not found in the Lamb book of life already, it is not going to be added in the near future. God already knows their names. No new names will come as a surprise to God. For He never increases in knowledge. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Knowing all.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/10


About the only possible valid argument that can be found against what Calvinism teaches is that it may diminish ones effort to witness to the unsaved by the Elect.

The argument against that is we are commanded to witness unto others of the salvation that may be theirs.

I would also go further in depicting the fact that with the Christian there is a compulsion to witness to others for that is the work of God's Spirit in the believer.
---leej on 12/2/10


Eph 1:13 In whom (Christ) ye also trusted, after ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that those who came out of Egypt were 'sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.'

As to predestination, the unlearned may detest such a belief, but we need only ask WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE TELL US?

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

And the Sovereign God did chose Jacob over Esau, and hardened Pharaohs heart for His good pleasure.

We should not force our concept of fairness onto God.
---leej on 12/2/10


"Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:43,44

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, THE MAN THAT EXECUTETH MY COUNSEL from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11
---christan on 12/2/10




/Today if you all will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness." Hb.3:7,8.
---Eloy on 12/2/10

Now here's a real TWIST of predestination!

Eloy, when I read this this morning I chuckled at those who were in fact the recipients of God's mercy being delivered out of Egypt, being the exact ones who did not enter the promise, because on the way they hardened their own heart! Yet, as those who still want to be Jacob in the Moses vs Pharaoh saga, what a warning.

It's because of God's SOVEREIGNTY spoken to Abraham I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you that God's wrath fell on Pharaoh...not for any other reason!
---kathr4453 on 12/2/10


//In response to what was said by one person about "interesting twist",
//--MarkV

Wont even say my name, Mark?

//...in the end will find out they had the wrong gospel(?) and are not going through heaven's gate.//

So what is YOUR "gospel" Mark? You avoided the question from quite a few others. The Bible is crystal clear what the gospel is but we all want to hear what yours is. Step up, sir.

Its quite ironic that here you sit claiming we steal Gods glory for salvation, yet you want to believe you are Gods elect BEFORE even coming to Christ (the same error the Jews make). They are going to hell for eternity.

Who is stealing the glory of Jesus Christ now?
---JackB on 12/2/10


//Today if you all will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness." Hb.3:7,8.
---Eloy on 12/2/10


Amen Eloy
---JackB on 12/2/10


//All these comments makes a person wonder if some here have ever heard the Gospel or believe it. Some believe only what their church believes or what they are taught to believe in.
How can some be so blind?
---duane on 12/2/10
//

Because some people cant accept the fact that they are vile sinners and no better than their neighbor. Just as undeserving of salvation.

They will dig for ANY scripture to set them apart from the rest of the sinful world. Even go as far as to say that Jesus Christ didnt die for every man as the word of God says he did.
---JackB on 12/2/10


And they will stand at the Great White Throne of Judgment saying,
"Lord, salvation was all of you from beginning to end, they told us but we didn't believe, why didn't you interfere and give us faith to believe, and take that free will away from our minds?, we are sorry we argued against you so much? And God will say, I never knew you."
Now that would be a another twist to that story.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/10

That's Twisted indeed!

I see no such conversation at the great white throne judgement.

I see those who were offered salvation as is offered to all, reject it. I\Those are the ones who rejected having their sin washed in the Blood of the Lamb so their name could be written in the Lambs Book of Life!
---kathr4453 on 12/2/10




First thing, we dont and cant repent of sin to be saved. We must repent(turn to Christ)to be saved. HE is the only one who can free you from sin and give life. When we come to Christ, God will give us repentance.(a change of mind and heart). We cant give ourselves repentance. Its a God given miracle.
How can a lost man repent towards God? Ans. The power of the Cross.
---duane on 12/2/10


All these comments makes a person wonder if some here have ever heard the Gospel or believe it. Some believe only what their church believes or what they are taught to believe in.
How can some be so blind?
---duane on 12/2/10


And that is TULIP for you - "For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?" 2 cor. 2:16-17
---leej on 12/1/10

leej, The fregrance one smells is not Calvin Slime After Shave...( The TULIP...hello, heck no..) It's Christ in you, it's those WASHED in the Blood, that no longer SMELL of this dead world.

Paul CONTINUES in chapter 3, we are also an open book for all to read...We're witnesses for Christ. The spirit and the bride say come and drink of the water freely.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


No one is a robot without freewill and freedom of choice to either choose to obey or else to choose to disobey. Pharoah had A Choice, Obey God, Or No. Just as every single soul has a choice. Pharoah freely chose "No" of his own freewill, and therefore his heart became hardened. If he would have chosen "Yes", then his heart would have become submisive to his God and not obtinate: "Wherefore as the Holy Ghost says, Today if you all will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness." Hb.3:7,8.
---Eloy on 12/2/10


Both can be verified by scripture leej.

I can appreciate a Calvinist such as yourself. At least you dont judge your brothers and sisters in Christ as lost and ignore them simply because they dont agree with Calvinism.

Some here insists it was Gods choice whom he would save by NO merit or act of the man whom he is saving and yet condemn those who dont believe in the Calvinist doctrine even though they profess faith in the son of God the Lord Jesus Christ.

If we are only saved by believing in a certain doctrine then God DID base his decision on something WE did.

See the contradiction there?
---JackB on 12/2/10


Its absolutely disturbing how much Romans 9 is twisted.

Read Romans 9 and Galatians 4 side by side.

Gods elect is the seed of Abraham (who is Jesus Christ). The Jews believe it is ALL of Abrahams children instead of just one. Paul is trying to set them straight in this chapter. You guys make the same error the Jews do.

There is NO election BEFORE faith in Christ. That is why the words "IN HIM" are constantly used in scripture when talking about predestination and being chosen. We are "hidden in Christ". It is not US that was chosen, it was Jesus Christ.
---JackB on 12/2/10


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Golly leej, you sound more like the Mormons or Radical Islam or the RCC around the Crusades than anything I have ever heard come out of the mouth of a Christian. You really do have an Identity Crisis going on here.

Now think if that were reversed,
Your pride truning to humility = more Grace.

Your love of self turning for Love of the Lost=OBEDIENCE=

Your passion for Calvinism turning to a passion for Jesus = Saved!

Enjoy your delusion while you're here. It may be the only joy you'll ever know.
---kathr4453 on 12/2/10


In response to what was said by one person about "interesting twist",
The most interesting twist would be, wouldn't it be a shock to so many that all who argue against God bringing them to life out of His own purpose and will, in the end will find out they had the wrong gospel and are not going through heaven's gate. And they will stand at the Great White Throne of Judgment saying,
"Lord, salvation was all of you from beginning to end, they told us but we didn't believe, why didn't you interfere and give us faith to believe, and take that free will away from our minds?, we are sorry we argued against you so much? And God will say, I never knew you."
Now that would be a another twist to that story.
---Mark_V. on 12/2/10


JackB // wonder how quickly you would abandon Calvinism then. Its a wonderful doctrine to believe in as long as you benefit from it, isnt it?

I do not need Calvinism as all I really need is the Word of God and most knowledgeable theologians would support the doctrine of Election for that can be verified by Scripture.

It all goes back down to the subject of free will and the soverignity of God does it not?
---leej on 12/1/10


//Well leej, here's smelling ya..and it STINKS.

O, I would agree that for the perishing, those that bear forth the word of God really are a real stench in the nostils of those who are perishing - those who God has not chosen for salvation.

How do you think Esau felt when God favored Jacob or poor old Pharoah was the one who got his heart hardened so that God's will would be done?

And that is why they fight against it so much.
---leej on 12/1/10


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Calvinism maintains that salvation is a sovereign act of God, that those whom He has chosen even before the foundation of the world will be the ones who inherit eternal life.

And that is TULIP for you - "For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?" 2 cor. 2:16-17
---leej on 12/1/10
Well leej, here's smelling ya..and it STINKS.

WHAT'Calvin maintains' is absolute arrogance that can be smelled as stench in the nostrals of God!
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


Id love to see how much praise God would get for his sovereignty if you leej, MarkV or Christan were enlightened to the fact that God never chose you to be saved and you are only deluding yourselves.

Wouldnt that be an interesting twist? I wonder how quickly you would abandon Calvinism then. Its a wonderful doctrine to believe in as long as you benefit from it, isnt it?

Thats why I will never be a Calvinist. I care too much for those who are without Christ to cast them aside as nothing. The "elect" dont even appear to carry the same sorrow that Paul had in his heart.

Calvinism = be happy that youre saved and dont worry about those who will perish.

Is that really the heart of Christ?
---JackB on 12/1/10


So leej, am I hearing you say that YOU like Paul kept the law so perfectly you considered your self blameless. Or are you saying ( from the Perspective of a Pharasee) that you just did not believe Jesus was the son of God?You believed teh Messiah was coming , but just not Him?

That's the only way I can really grasp your last comment based on the moralist issue.

I think you all see yourselves as the Jews so much , you actually believe you were one before you got saved.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


Kath4453 - As I stated before, my upbringing was one of very high morals and I did have a conscience as to right and wrong morality.

But my sin was basically one of unbelief.

As you may agree, it is not the moralist that is predestined to inherit salvation, but the one who is born of God's Spirit. 1 John 1:12

And like Esau, I became the Jacob chosen for the His good pleasure to serve Him. The nonsense lies with the non-Calvinist who think that salvation is in our hands, not in the hands of a sovereign God.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
---leej on 12/1/10


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Now Leej, I know you were not a "FERAL" child. I know you didnt grow up all alone with the wild animals in the forest or jungle. So to say, unless I misunderstood you, you were never taught right from wrong, that lying, stealing, etc was wrong? Hum, even those in China without Christ or the 10 commandments of Moses know that. Or are you saying your upbringing was with robbers and thieves and that was all you knew, being your only reference point of life?
This nonsense that an unsaved person cannot know they are a sinner, is just that...nonsense!

Or else only Calvinists are Feral people God had to save some other way!
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


//NOT in the least as the Scripture does NOT support the view that repentance is a prerequisite to salvation.//

I must say I am very disappointed when ANY CHristian makes such a claim. Any new believer can read the gospels and see the very words of Jesus Christ teach repentance from the way we currently live and think.

That power only comes from God. Jesus made that quite clear when he said he was the vine and we are the branches and without Him we can do nothing.

Repentance is a change of heart. That change of heart is followed by us calling upon Jesus Christ to save us from our past sins and empower us with HIS Spirit to live a life pleasing to God.
---JackB on 12/1/10


//Repentance and faith are a gift of God.//

Where does the word of God say that faith is a gift of God?

Grace is the gift. We have access by faith into this grace

Jesus praised people for the strength of their faith and criticized them for the weakness of their faith. If the faith needed to save someone were sent from the Father that praise and criticism would have been directed towards HIM!

It is the OBJECT of our faith that the Father opens our eyes to. Once a man's eyes are opened to who Jesus Christ is, he still must decide if he wants the object of his faith to be himself according to the law or the Lord Jesus Christ according to grace.

---JackB on 12/1/10


/As for me, my ability to believe in Christ is the result of faith that God has so mercifully and graciously worked in my once dead spirit.

See the difference in works and grace? //--- Christan

christian, GRACE is the very person of Christ. We are SAVED by the very person of Christ. Christ is not worked in our once dead spirit as though it were some salve or ointment God applies.

GraceousLY and GRACE are two different things. You apply as though Grace is God's graceousness. Scripture applies it is Christ Himself.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


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How is the unbeliever to repent if he does not have the light of the Holy Spirit to focus on what his sins are?
---leej on 12/1/10

Well,, now I thought the LAW showed us what sin is.

I am not asked to make a list of all my sin ..I am asked to acknowledge i am a SINNER.

Breaking any one of the 10 commandments...shows you are a sinner. James said, if you break one, you've broken all.

Did I know at 8 that stealing was wrong. you bet! How did I know? MY CONSCIENCE told me so!
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


Man is told to repent and believe the gospel. The Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of the sin of unbelief, because they believe not on Him (Jesus Christ) who is the righteousness of God. The believer He convicts of righteousness because Jesus Christ has gone to the Father to secure that righteousness. Why is it so hard to accept that the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the gospel, convicts of that unbelief and that man can accept or refuse that conviction?
---Samuel on 12/1/10


Well, here we go, the salvation police! Just as Calvin murdered Anabaptists over infant baptism vs believers baptism. YES! Can you believe these guys are so DOGMATIC about policing your relationship with Christ, they actually believe themselves to be God deciding whether youre saved or not according to Calvins doctrine.
What on earth did people do before Calvin or Augustine? I guess no one was really saved until the savior Calvin came along to EXPLAIN it. So actually we are saved not by Christ but by explanation.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


JackB //Jesus Christ taught repentance. So isnt your argument with Him instead of Kathr?

NOT in the least as the Scripture does NOT support the view that repentance is a prerequisite to salvation.

How is the unbeliever to repent if he does not have the light of the Holy Spirit to focus on what his sins are?

One beleives in accordance to Romans 10:9 and THEN one is enabled to repent of sin. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit that enables one to confess from the heart the things that stand between him and God.
---leej on 12/1/10


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Repentance and faith are a gift of God.
For "The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" So unless God gives them those gifts through the Spirit, they cannot, because they are unable to understand them. God has to grant them those gifts.
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for Him" Phil. 1:29.
"God my perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will" 2 Tim. 2:25,26.
---Mark_V. on 12/1/10


//As for me, my ability to believe in Christ is the result of faith that God has so mercifully and graciously worked in my once dead spirit.

See the difference in works and grace? //--- Christan

When exactly did faith become a work?
---JackB on 12/1/10


Reconciliation is the restoring of man to God's favor by removal of the thing that separates. Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world. Reconciliation came by the death of Christ and is the truth regarding all men. Sin no longer separates man from God. Salvation, which is not reconciliation, comes by the life of Christ and is the inheritance of every believer. It is of a surety that none of it will be experienced in one's life apart from the exercising of faith.
---Samuel on 11/30/10


//You are trying to make repentance a condition for the free gift to everyone who would believe Christ died for our sins and was resurrected from the dead.

No wonder your theology is so far out in left field!
---leej on 11/30/10//

Jesus Christ taught repentance. So isnt your argument with Him instead of Kathr?
---JackB on 11/30/10


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Kathr, to answer your question "What exactly is this faith you're been given as a gift to believe? That you have to beg for mercy"

It's very clear that you and I claim to have "faith". The question is where did we get this "faith" from. You claim that you have to "believe" in Christ than you will be save, which actually smells of works and not grace.

As for me, my ability to believe in Christ is the result of faith that God has so mercifully and graciously worked in my once dead spirit.

See the difference in works and grace? One has to do good works to be saved and the other does good works because he has been saved.
---christan on 11/30/10


leej, am I more aware of my old adam nature NOW that I am saved and a Holy Trinity actually lives in me...Hidden with God in Christ sealed by teh Holy Spirit, in case someone wants to accuse me of blasphemy.

The whole reason we repent FRIST to be saved, is to be saved from our sin.

The More I am being conformed to His Image the more in awe I am of God's holiness.

Phil 3 is a good place to start leej in understandinng our sanctification relationship . No I was not sanctified first to be saved.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


Kath,
Who would say they were saved before they repented(turned to Christ)? No man can be saved unless they turn to Christ.
---duane on 11/30/10


//Those who claim they are saved first and then repent are actually saying they never repented FIRST TO BE SAVED.

We really become more aware of our sinfulness after Christ comes into our lives.

Galatians 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Have you become a new creation in Christ and if so, was this before or after you repented of your sinfulness?

You are trying to make repentance a condition for the free gift to everyone who would believe Christ died for our sins and was resurrected from the dead.

No wonder your theology is so far out in left field!
---leej on 11/30/10


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mima - Does this scripture mean we can be saved by receiving jesus?

I believe the next verse fully states that much.

1:13 NLT They are reborn-not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

And Christ thru the Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration.
---leej on 11/30/10


Duane, you said something that is very wrong. You said,
All men have been reconciled to God through Christ but will all men trust the work of God?"
All men are not reconciled to God. Only believers who by faith believe in the works of Christ on the cross are reconciled to God. You must have taken the verses in 2 Cor. 5:19 and applied them to every single individual in the world. That is Universalism, that everyone is saved. It would have to be if every single individual is already reconciled to God. So, no, it's wrong. That is a heretic doctrine.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/10


Those who claim they are saved first and then repent are actually saying they never repented FIRST TO BE SAVED.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


christian, I have a different understanding to Romans.

OUR way to Christ is explained in Romans 4, Those who come by FAITH.=our Justification.

Romans 5=ALL have sinned.6-8 = our sanctification

Romans 9-11, Israel's past, present future. Moses(Israel)vs Pharoah. Israel's God showed mercy to them. Paul tells us will be again, when Isaiah 14:1 is FULFILLED. I will AGAIN have Mercy on JACOB and bring them back to the Land.

BUT talk about drowning in vomit.

IF You are Born again first to have faith that you were the chosen ones God is having mercy on, why on earth are you all BEGGING for it?

What exactly is this faith you're been given as a gift to believe? That you have to beg for mercy
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


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//yes leej i am fully aware Calvin took his teaching from the GNOSTIC teachings of Augustine//

Now ask yourself where Augustine got his beliefs from.

GO LOOK AT WHAT THE MAN STUDIED when he left the faith. Then youll see where your doctrine really comes from. He took it from pagan religions and applied it to Christianity. Picking and choosing a handful of verses to back up his beliefs.

You gonna follow a man into hell or Jesus Christ into Heaven?
---JackB on 11/29/10


//And yet, you deny election even when Scripture clearly declares, "that the purpose of God according to election might stand" (Romans 9:11)
//

And what was the purpose of election, Christan? Will you answer? MarkV avoided the question when I asked it to him.

In that set of verses WHAT is the purpose of GOds election?

Are you not even aware that the scriptures Romans 9 quotes are speaking of nations (Jacob/Israel --- Esau/Edom) and not individuals?

Cross reference them.
---JackB on 11/29/10


//Begging is not faith, but a lack of faith.
//

Amen to that, Kathr.

Hebrews 4:16

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need

God is faithful and JUST to forgive and cleanse us. He even said so himself. (1 John 1:9)
---JackB on 11/29/10


God's MERCY is an attribute of God's charactor.

We are the OBJECT of God's Mercy, longsuffering, loving-kindness.

Grace and Mercy cannot be separated.

I do not have to beg for GRACE any more than I have to beg for mercy.

Begging is not faith, but a lack of faith.

Example, When teh chilren of Israel put teh blood , God's mercy was there protecting them. They did not go back in their homes after BEGGING God not to take their first born.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


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Mercy:
We are the OBJECT of Gods Mercy. We are the OBJECT of His LOVE. Mercy is forgiveness SHOWN to us . If Jesus had not died for my sin, and there was no other way for salvation then to BEG God for mercy, that would be one thing. However, when God so Loved the world He gave His only Begotten Son, that whoso ever believeth in Him will not perish but have eternal life being the only PROVISION for Gods mercy, I believe and receive. If I do not believe Christ became sin for me, then I guess I would be begging for mercy.
We dont BEG to be forgiven, or to be saved. We thank God in Christ we CAN BE.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


Kathr, you said "Like Isaac so are we. Children of PROMISE."

Can you even hear yourself? You have just acknowledged that Isaac was a child of the promise by God as written in the Scripture in Romans 9:9 "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.".

And yet, you deny election even when Scripture clearly declares, "that the purpose of God according to election might stand" (Romans 9:11)

You are clearly drowning in confusion from your own vomit.
---christan on 11/29/10


When we hear the good news, will we turn to Christ in faith/trust or keep on living in unbelief? All men have been reconciled to God through Christ but will all men trust the work of God?
Saved by grace through our faith in HIM. Its a matter of trusting IN HIM. If we give our heart/life to God in trust, HE will give HIS life/savation to us.
---duane on 11/29/10


yes leej i am fully aware Calvin took his teaching from the GNOSTIC teachings of Augustine. Thank you for reminding all of us of that fact. NOW, lets get back to the teachings of the Apostles.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


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Kathr, you have already admitted that when you came to Christ you had no faith and no remorse for your rebellion against God. For all sinners whot seek Christ, seek Him because they already believe Him by faith. They also have to be convicted of sin by the Spirit at rebirth, so that they can recognize their rebellion against God and want to repent. You had none of them. Your very words.
Now you can try to twist your way out of that one but it came from you. Just think you came without faith and repentance expecting to get something out of your commitment. If that is not doing something to get something in return for your works, I don't know what is.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/10


kathr4453 - there is now a blog on what constitutes Calvinism you may wish to post on. Bear in mind that Calvin's system was actually based on the philosophic principles advocated by Augstine of Hippo (4th century), so much of his work is not realy new.
---leej on 11/29/10


christian, WE are the CALLED OUT ONES. In Isaac shall thy seed be called. not Chosen! The seed is Christ.

Like Isaac so are we. Children of PROMISE.

Now please find any other reference used that WE are affiliated with Jacob? Jacob was not a Child of PROMISE. Nothing supernatural about Jacob and Esau's birth.

Not even Paul references the CHURCH with Jacob. Jacob is ISRAEL.

Paul teaching GRACE in Galatians does not even come close to teaching ELECTION of certain people or uses Jacob as a reference point.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


Yes JackB He that cometh must BELIEVE, it doesn't say He that cometh must be Born Again first.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


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Kathr, your understanding of the word "predestine" is in conflict with the English dictionary. Dictionary defines "predestine" as "to foreordain, determine beforehand, theology (of God) to decree from eternity (any event, esp the final salvation of individuals)"

In other words, dictionary definition of predestine confirms Paul's teaching that God only loved Jacob and NEVER Esau, regardless of what he does.

Romans 9:11 "for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls"

You are trying to squeeze "freewill/works" into God's election and predestination.
---christan on 11/29/10


JackB, In Hebrews 11:6, "those who diligently seek Jesus" is the cause of "faith" that he has received from God, which is "a gift from God".

If based on your understanding that a man has the "spiritual" ability to seek Jesus on his own (who is God and Spirit) - what need is there for God to then give him faith? What need is there for God to regenerate your dead spirit since you can raise yourself from the dead to seek Christ? What then becomes of the Holy Spirit work? Is he just a "genie" in the bottle as taught in fantasies and fables?

You are putting the cart before the horse.
---christan on 11/29/10


Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently SEEK him.

You guys need to argue with God. Even Jesus praised people for THEIR faith in His ability. Its not something that God gives you its something that comes from within you. He does however STRENGTHEN your faith. Just as the ability to follow the 10 commandments was something that God required of US, faith is the same way.

Romans 10:6-10
Deut 30:11-15

It seems that most people who take scripture out of context dont bother to cross reference.
---JackB on 11/29/10


No christian:

God predestined, or planned before the foundation of the world, to take out of this world, man whom He first created out of clay, knowing man would sin, to a place and final state of Holiness, being totally blameless before Him and that can only come about through the new birth.

And anyone who is still in their claymation old adam fallen existance, can receive Jesus Christ so they may TOO as you also did, have this Hope Of glory with Christ, a New creature in the New Creation, predestined to be conformed to His Image, leaving this old one behind.

This is the message of the Gospel to all. This is what predestination means THIS is what God for-ordained.
---kathr4453 on 11/28/10
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


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This is precisely what happens when many claim that the Gospel that Christ preached and the epistles that Paul wrote are in conflict. Satan is merrily dancing deceptions around your heads like he did with Eve at Eden!

Paul declares to the Christian based on the teachings of Jesus Christ:

1. That it was God who chose them before the foundations of the world through election.
2. And only those who are chosen will receive the promise of the Spirit through regeneration and hence John 1:12 is applicable.
3. And these chosen ones by God will definitely go to Christ because of God's promise through His wonderful Grace.

This is known as irresistable Grace and this is what is known as "receiving Christ".
---christan on 11/29/10


The definition of faith is:
Belief in or trust in somebody without any logical proof.
The definition of faith is NOT: To be born again first being given logical proof so that I can believe.
Abraham did not first see the baby Isaac before he believed God.
Calvinists have cleverly changed the definitions of words in scripture without any scripture to back up their illogical proof.
Born Again does not mean FAITH.
Ephesians does not say, we are saved by Grace through Born Again..
One has to have faith FIRST in order to be Born again. So heres another:
By Born Again, Abel offered to God a more perfect sacrifice.
By Born Again, Abraham Born Again God and God counted it to him as righteousness.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


markv, After I received Jesus Christ as my savior, THEN the Lord said to me. I WANT your WHOLE life. God did not take it, He asked for it. I then said, but what about my husband? The Lord said nothing. but He WAITED for my answer. I said YES, and at that moment the most awesome thing, the Lord brought me right to the Father, and I will never forget it.

Then after I was Justified and raised up with Christ, He began teaching me the DOCTRINE of the CROSS, that is my sanctification.

You see, the preaching of the Gospel is the power unto salvation, and after we are saved, the doctrine of the CROSS is the power of my sanctification, of which those who avoid it are perishing!

BUT, I really don't have to JUSTIFY myself to you !
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


Kathr, out of your own words you made my point. For you said this time,
"When I received Jesus Christ and became a son, or rather daughter, I did NOT have to know and understand anything but that Jesus died for my sin."
Anyone can believe that Jesus died for our sins. That does not make them saved. Even the devil believes in Jesus Christ. No Kathr, you have not had a true conversation.
Not only did you need to have faith in the Works of Christ on the cross but in His resurrection. You also needed to have a conviction from the Holy Spirit in order to believe you had sinned against God and wanted forgiveness. You had none of them. No faith, no remorse so no change of heart towards Christ. You came under false pretenses.
---Mark_V. on 11/29/10


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We all need to be careful of anyone who tries to pre-qualify you before enrolling you. This is how cults work to inlist you.
Aanyone who claims that GOD does not justify the UNGODLY is a liar and the truth is not in him.

To be justified is between you and God, no one else. You have to first be ungodly before you can be justified. IN YOUR UNGODLY STATE, if you place your faith in God who sent His Son Jesus Christ to DIE FOR your sin, God right then will Justify you.

That the ONLY thing that pre-qualifies anyone to becoming a son of God through Jeses Christ! That is what God says.
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


Therefore yes, with the understanding that 'no one' can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws them, and no man can join himself to Jesus unless it is given him of the Father to do so. John 6:44,65...
---joseph on 11/28/10

sorry Joseph but there is no prerequisite stated in John 1:12. Interestingly this is stated at the beginning of John and not the end of John as a conclusion to the previous verses.

When I received Jesus Christ and became a son, or rather daughter, I did NOT have to know and understand anything but that Jesus died for my sin.

After my salvation the Lord revealed to me I was MORE than saved, but actually a Begotten child through Jesus Christ, and Joint Heir with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 11/28/10


MarkV, YOU claim you were born again first and THEN begged God for mercy. Hummm, but then if you BEGGED God for mercy to forgive you before your new birth, how is it YOU say you did not save yourself.

When you are SAVED, you have been pardoned and God's Mercy is already extended to you through Christ.

When I heard the Gospel, that I was a sinner, certainly was convicted I was a sinner, that Christ died for my sin, and those who receive His Mercy and forgivness do so BY FAITH, are then forgiven.

I did not AFTER receiving His Mercy, beg Him to give me mercy.

The publican simply said, be merciful to me A SINNER.

THEN that man walked away JUSTIFIED.



---kathr4453 on 11/28/10


"Does this Scripture mean that we can be saved by receiving Jesus?"
The word 'received' in the context of John 1:12 is "to join to one's self as an associate or companion" or metaphorically "to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be." Therefore yes, with the understanding that 'no one' can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws them, and no man can join himself to Jesus unless it is given him of the Father to do so. John 6:44,65
For " 'No one' knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Mat. 11:27
And "no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." 1Cr 12:3
---joseph on 11/28/10


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Kathr, you said,
"MarkV wants to say he was a son already in eternity past. if that were so, he is mormon, for only sons before the cross were angels. And they were not begotten sons either, but created ones."
I never said that at all. I gave Scripture and if you were to read it you will know that only those who believed became sons of God. Your accusation about Mormons is just like you to say that.
What you teach is that people receive faith and repentance and spiritual life itself after they commit to Christ. Making their commitment a false commitment. No faith and no remorse before you committed your life to Christ. You are still a Jew with no faith.
---Mark_V. on 11/28/10


Yes mima, that is exactly what it means in John 1:12.

TO BECOME the sons of God comes after we believe and receive.

The ONLY way one can BECOME a son, a begotten Son is through Jesus Christ.

MarkV wants to say he was a son already in eternity past. if that were so, he is mormon, for only sons before the cross were angels. And they were not begotten sons either, but created ones.

We are SAVED by His risen life. The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead AFTER He went to the cross.Not before. Same with us. Our NEW birth comes out of our death first with christ.Romans 6, Heb 13:20-21 = Romans 8:1-13.
---kathr4453 on 11/27/10


Mima, No, it does not mean that at all. If you continue to read the passage it says,
"He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, (born physically) nor of the will of man, (man's own will choosing) But of God" (God's will)
Only those born of God recieve the Lord Jesus Christ and become children of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/27/10


//And what exactly does "receiving Christ" mean?
---Cluny on 11/26/10//
Good question, probably will get several different answers.
---michael_e on 11/27/10


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Jesus knocks on your hearts door, & you let Him in. Then you receive His One & Only Plan of salvation, Acts 2 v 37 - 41, Matt.24 v 13.

ALL other so called salvations ARE Man - made & the inspiration came from here, 2nd.Cor.11 v's 14 - 15, beginning with the rcc.
---Lawrence on 11/26/10


i am sure that Jesus is so honored when we receive him, but don't you think we should be concerned with if He receives us...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
---aka on 11/26/10


Born again, saved, receiving Christ are all the same. Lot of church members think they are saved when in fact they are not. It is not a gradual thing but being born of the spirit is instant just like a natural birth.
If we can't remember the place where the Lord saved us, then we probably are not saved.
---shira3877 on 11/26/10


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