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Calvinism Doctrinal System

John Calvin is often the recognized founder of the 5 point doctrinal system known as Calvinism, Total depravity, unconditional election, limited Atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perservance of the saints (TULIP). Which of these points do you find most objectionable and why?

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 ---leej on 11/29/10
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//To be born of Spirit of Christ you have to repent and believe he is your saviour.

Do you mean that repentance is a prerequisite to salvation? Or is salvation really an act of our sovereign God?

Calvinism maintains that salvation is a sovereign act of God, that those whom He has chosen even before the foundation of the world will be the ones who inherit eternal life.

And that is TULIP for you - "For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?" 2 cor. 2:16-17
---leej on 12/1/10


Thanks for the humor, I really did not know you had it in you. We can really imagine Calvin and the Anabaptists frought over ice cream.
---leej on 12/1/10
leej, you found HUMOR in that? Are you sick? I was not being funny, however I see you WANT to make it look so, so you can sweep under the rug the dirt, filth and so much more your hero is too dead to do himself.

This is how you resolve important issues? Even the POPE had more integrity than you will ever have. He at least apologized for the crusades. Whether sincere or not, he did not make a joke of it.

So, 500 years from now will men be joking over the sexual abuse of the RCC ( and other groups?? Icecream?....get out!
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


Christan,you did say that. Do you propose people are already born with the Holy Ghost in them?
or that the Holy Spirit has to be in them BEFORE they get saved? The Bible does not say either one.
The Bible says that the Holy Ghost gets upon you through the preaching of God's word..THE TRUTH. Then it convicts you of your sins. THEN you recieve the truth and repent of your sins.
To be born of Spirit of Christ you have to repent and believe he is your saviour. You say that those who don't receive the truth from God that God did not chose them to be saved anyway. Not true. The sacrifice for sin was done once for all mankind's sins. Grace is here, all one has to do is receive it or not. It is God's gift to all mankind.
---ginger on 12/1/10


kathr4453 - It's a little late to be telling that to the Anabaptists Calvin murdered over that very issue!

Thanks for the humor, I really did not know you had it in you. We can really imagine Calvin and the Anabaptists frought over ice cream.
---leej on 12/1/10


Christian fellows, why argue all day? Let's remember North America as it was in the days of the New England Puritans and that godly city Geneva.


Let's also remember Theodore Beza's historical writings: which bears witness thoroughly that Iohn Caluin was a very true and honest Christian man in all dealings. Let's also not forget that the Anglican KJV is recognized to be translated from Theodore Beza's Greek New Testament.


The Geneva Bible is the translation of Christian translators in Geneva. The 1576 Geneva New Testament translated out of Greeke by Theodore Beza.

Hebrewes 13:1, Let brotherlie loue continue.
---Kev on 12/1/10




Ginger, you continue to bear false witness of my comments when you accuse me of saying, "You said a person can enter the kingdom of God (Spiritual) without Christ." This is a very serious accusation you have made.

The Truth is that a person who is born of the Spirit is made clear that he is indeed in Christ through the covenant of grace.

Simply put, you hate the Truth that God has chosen unconditionally even when it say so in the Scripture. You hate the Truth that salvation has got nothing to do with man's part but only God. You hate the Truth that Christ only died for the sins of His people and not the whole world.

Sad to say, the Truth is not in you.
---christan on 12/1/10


//I'm talking about the Knowledge OF JESUS, that comes from KNOWING Him, knowing here meaning intimately, vs the kind of Knowledge you are talking about called GNOSTIC...

Knowledge of Jesus also comes through the study of His word as that is where the Holy Spirit is very active.

Gnosticism on the other hand was/is "an early Christian religious movement teaching that salvation comes by learning esoteric spiritual truths that free humanity from the material world, believed in this movement to be evil."

Obviously you really have not spend much time studying doctrine or the history of doctrine as you blow a lot of bad air.

Suggest "the History of Christian Thought" by Jonathan Hill.
---leej on 12/1/10


There is only one place Goats vs sheep are mentioned. The Goats are those who persecute the Lords brethren during the great tribulation. The Lords brethren here are the Jews. And you will see what constitutes a goat from a sheep.

Also remember in Ezekiel 34 the WICKED shepherds, and the mean evil sheep pushing and shoving...

Do you even SEE a goat mentioned in Ezekiel 34.

Don't be so smug that you are a sheep. You could be an evil sheep!
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


Fighting over such minor issues is much like fighting over what flavor of ice cream is best.

---leej on 12/1/10

It's a little late to be telling that to the Anabaptists Calvin murdered over that very issue!
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


//Therefore, as in the earthly things, a goat cannot change itself to a sheep.//

Recognizing the fact that you need to be a sheep and calling upon the master to change you into one isnt stealing the glory for the change.
---JackB on 12/1/10


Amen JackB!!
A goat can call out to God because they find out through trials that they need God to change them into a sheep.
Me bragging about how God came and changed me from a goat to his sheep IS giving God all the glory because God changed me.
But the other side just does not get that God didn't pick people before he created them to be saved. That is not biblical. It is hog wash.
---ginger on 12/1/10




I fail to understand why you have such a problem with those who would desire to go deeper into the word of God and become more knowledgeable than you are. Envy? pride?

---leej on 12/1/10

leej, I'm talking about the Knowledge OF JESUS, that comes from KNOWING Him, knowing here meaning intimately, vs the kind of Knowledge you are talking about called GNOSTIC...

I can READ all about the intimate marital relations, , however If I've never actually had those relations, PERSONALLY...it's only TEXT BOOK knowledge.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


While we need not follow any certain teacher the Lord has given to His church, we do benefit greatly from their teaching of His word. see 1 Cor. 1:12f regarding Paul criticism of those who have their favorite teacher.

As to infant baptism, Calvin (and many denominations today) view baptism as an expression of the New Covenant relation similar to what circumcision was in the Old Covenant. While I can understand both viewpoints, I do not see anything within the Scripture that prohibits or commands either mode.

Fighting over such minor issues is much like fighting over what flavor of ice cream is best.




---leej on 12/1/10


//You are so wrapped up in doctrine, you live by that alone.

Frankly I have found the study of God's word as expressed in Biblical doctrines a means of spiritual growth as well as something that has enabled me to help others on their journey.

I fail to understand why you have such a problem with those who would desire to go deeper into the word of God and become more knowledgeable than you are. Envy? pride?

Of course, the god of this world would not have you become more mature and useful to others. You should stop listening to that voice and listen to what the Lord would teach you.

Please find a church that emphasizes the teaching of the Word of God as if you continue alone, you will not be of much use to anyone.
---leej on 12/1/10


Sorry JackB but there is a good reason the Lord gave to His church teachers as most of us really do not have what is necessary to teach ourselves.

---leej on 12/1/10

Yep, He gave Ellen White, and the Pope too.

What are you going to do now. How will you DECIDE who's telling the truth. Holding them up to Calvin or SCRIPTURE?

Now again Calvin taught infant baptism....hummmmmm let me see, If I hold Calvin up to Calvin...YEP we need infant baptism first. However If I hold Calvin up to scripture , Scripture says no such thing.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


//leej, that's great. And Paul was thrown off a horse! So maybe no one is saved until they get thrown off a horse????

God does not deal with everyone the same way as you would have us believe. You need not feel jealous or envious of how God has worked with others as we all come from different backgrounds and have different personalities.

While a simple nudge is all that is needed for most of us -we simply believed the Word - whereas some need to be kicked off their horses.

Many did not have the bad sin problem you were burdened with before coming to faith.

As for repentance, Calvin had it correct as that is something of a continual things.
---leej on 12/1/10


leej, that's great. And Paul was thrown off a horse! So maybe no one is saved until they get thrown off a horse????

Here's the thing.

You are so wrapped up in doctrine, you live by that alone.
Example:

You scream, I can get a TATOO because I'm under Grace, not law.

I SCREAM I don't get a tatoo, because the Lord personally asked me not to get one.

The doctrine of Law vs Grace has nothing to do with it. My intimate relationship with Christ has EVERYTHING to do with it!
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


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kathr44453//Golly leej, maybe the difference is I was shown WHY Jesus died and Rose again.....FOR MY SIN.

When Christ came into my life, I had little or no knowledge of the Cross or why He died for me. I was simply aware of His presence and the overpowering & beautiful love He had for me, and that while saying my formalized prayers one evening. Looking back, the Holy Spiirt that enabled me to fully yield myself to Him.

And all that some 50 years ago!
---leej on 12/1/10


//We arent supposed to be learning from men. The Bible has warned us not to do so, but learn from Him that lives within us.

Sorry JackB but there is a good reason the Lord gave to His church teachers as most of us really do not have what is necessary to teach ourselves.

Eph. 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

And as for Calvin, he is one of the greater teachers as his Institutes of the Christian faith laid the foundation for most Protestant religions.
---leej on 12/1/10


//Therefore, as in the earthly things, a goat cannot change itself to a sheep.//

Recognizing the fact that you need to be a sheep and calling upon the master to change you into one isnt stealing the glory for the change.
---JackB on 12/1/10


leej, but all that doctrine is falsehood, and it flys in the face of free will and freedom of choice which God has granted each soul to obey him or else refuse him. And it is falsehood to say that man does not want to obey, for many indeed do desire to obey, as Abel's heart was right, and Cain's heart was not. God does not appoint man for wrath, but instead individuals freely choose wrath by freely rejecting God.
---Eloy on 12/1/10


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leej, You miscontexted scripture. Rm.8:29,30 is preceeded by verse 28: "And we know that to those who love God, all things work together for good, to them who according to purpose are called." And Rm.9:11 is referring only to the prophecy of Esau serving Jacob, stated in the following verse 12: "It was said to her, The elder will serve the younger." And Ephesians chapter one is speaking about God has called ALL OF US into obeying and serving him even before any one of us was born. "And the times of this ignorance God winked at: but now commands ALL HUMANS EVERY WHERE to righten." Act.17:30.
---Eloy on 12/1/10


Golly kathr4453, I cannot recall repenting of my sins prior to the time Christ stepped into my life and changed everything. I simply believed that Jesus was the son of God and that if one confessed with ones mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed in ones heart that God raised him from the dead that I would be saved (Romans 10:9).

Golly leej, maybe the difference is I was shown WHY Jesus died and Rose again.....FOR MY SIN.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


We arent supposed to be learning from men. The Bible has warned us not to do so, but learn from Him that lives within us.
---JackB on 11/30/10


I know jackb, and they go on and on and on about how they are HIS SHEEP who only hear HIS VOICE.

I know I am. I simply cannot hear the voice of strangers,or strange doctrines.
---kathr4453 on 12/1/10


Yes I do understand Christan.
You said a person can enter the kingdom of God(Spiritual) without Christ. That is a lie. Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again. He didn't say born again first.
To be born again means to believe Christ.
You don't learn or understand the things of Christ until you get into Christ. So, the lost sheep are those who would believe on Christ.
Again, you and I and every other Christian was a goat before Christ found us.
See how Calvin's evil teaching that you are already born in Christ when you are born into flesh is a lie.
All men are born into adam(flesh) first. Then they become born of spirit(Christ) AFTER they accept Christ as their saviour and lord. Not what you are teaching here Christan.
---ginger on 12/1/10


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Ginger, you cannot see that the carnal world is also parallel to the spiritual. As Christ reproached Nicodemus, this is what my Saviour declared - "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" John 3:12

Therefore, as in the earthly things, a goat cannot change itself to a sheep. And in the spiritual, if you are created a goat by God you will die a goat (as represented in vessels of dishonour who were created for destruction). By the same token if you are a sheep, you will always be a sheep as per God's will. That's why Christ came to look for His lost sheep and not the goat.
---christan on 11/30/10


//Reformers don't base their faith in anyone other then Jesus Christ our Savior and His works on the cross, and His resurrection. Faith in any other is not saving faith.//

Then why even care what people like Calvin believed.

Do they have a different Spirit than those the rest of those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ?

We arent supposed to be learning from men. The Bible has warned us not to do so, but learn from Him that lives within us.
---JackB on 11/30/10


Unconditional Election-Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God, therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional, they are not based on mans response (Romans 8:29-30, 9:11, Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Eloy //But the point which I strongly disagree with is the "unconditional election",

Then how do you interpret the scripture that is interpreted to be uncondiational election?
---leej on 11/30/10


leej, do you realize you openly admit the Holy Spirit is not your teacher.

Jesus said in one of His letters, To those who OVERCOME will I give of the hidden manna.

ONLY Jesus can do that. Do you know how...it's through the fellowship of His sufferings.

That I may KNOW HIM, and the fellowship of His sufferings and the Power of His resurrection.

Head knowledge will not get you any higher than your ceiling. You have to rise above the powers and principalities of this earth, into heavenly places IN CHRIST. That doesn't happen sitting on your duff reading the works of anyone!
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


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//Was Calvin a Calvinist? FUNNY! Even funnier is that you all are so obsessed with Calvinism, you wonder if even Calvin was one.
Heres the problem.

I think you really need to screw on your head before you make these kinds of comments.

If you were to be in my office you would see a fairly large library of books (over 400)on many different subjects and not only Calvinism. Most of the books are in the field of apologetics.

As a former research analysis, I look at nearly everything of interest including what constitutes Calvinism.

Your obsession seems to be one that only desires to be contentious but at the same time, contributing nothing to the tread topic. Proverbs 27:15
---leej on 11/30/10


//The real question is, were any of them BORN AGAIN. Did any of them REPENT first to be saved.

We know what they believed from their writings.

Since you claim to be on authority on what John Calvin taught, I suggest you tell us what he taught on the subject of regeneration and repentance.

Volume I, Chapter III, page 508 Institutes of the Christian Religion.

As stated before there are as many interpretations on Calvinism as there are on Scriptures. And no, I find it not funny someone even wrote a article entitled 'Was Calvin a Calvinism' since there are so many viewpoints including many that are blatantly false.
---Leej on 11/30/10


leej, my war is not with the reformers. The reformers were at war with one another on what? DOCTRINAL issues even they could not agree on, and with that murdered other christians...and I don't mean just the RCC. The murdered anna-baaptists over baptism. Infant vs true baptism.

Calvin believed in infant baptism, and said he was regenerated at his infant baptism. NOW look Lee, don't tell me I don't know what is important.

You just want me to not speaking the truth. I will never stop speaking the truth against false dctrine! I don't care who they are. They are not gods. They are men who's works have yet to be judged at the judgement seat of christ. BWARE!
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


Golly kathr4453, I cannot recall repenting of my sins prior to the time Christ stepped into my life and changed everything. I simply believed that Jesus was the son of God and that if one confessed with ones mouth that Jesus is Lord and believed in ones heart that God raised him from the dead that I would be saved (Romans 10:9).

However, His Spirit was quick to reveal what my sins and other shortcomings were.

As I once stated, I was basically a strict moralist lacking few if any known sins.

What your problem is simply your bad theology that repentance is a prerequisite to salvation. I dont believe that Scripture really teaches that.
---leej on 11/30/10


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shira3877 //John 3:16 is a simple verse than says calvanist are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Do a google Calvin on John 3 and READ for yourself.

It really surprises me that there are so many experts on this forum regarding Calvinism but I would bet money that no one here has ever bothered to read his Institutes of the Christian Religion. That being the case, it is very likely everyone that is critical of Calvinism has their information second or third or fourth or fifth hand.

Of course, if Calvin was wrong about one thing, we could say that means all of his views were also wrong.
---leej on 11/30/10


I do not study calvinism, so I am not wholly familiar with his own definitions of his chosen words. But the point which I strongly disagree with is the "unconditional election", because God is manifested to consistantly elect souls upon the condition that they will obey his command, and not randomly elect souls who choose to disobey him, for no disobedience is elected nor will the disobedient inherit the kingdom of God, but only those whom will follow him are the elected.
---Eloy on 11/30/10


Was Calvin a Calvinist? FUNNY! Even funnier is that you all are so obsessed with Calvinism, you wonder if even Calvin was one.
Heres the problem. All you who cant get by on life unless you have taught yourselves from their doctrines are actually admitting you have no personal relationship with the Lord. Just as the Catholics need the POPE to tell them what scripture means, so do you need Calvin to tell you WHAT to believe. Do you see yourselves as ignorant men?
The Mormons need J. Smith, some SDA need Ellen White. I wonder how many SDA ask, was Ellen really an SDA?
The real question is, were any of them BORN AGAIN. Did any of them REPENT first to be saved.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


//leej, how can you on one hand condemn calvin and then uplift him?

I am not one of those who would throw the baby out with the wash.

There are books on Calvinism and I have a few. The topics he covers are not that easy to understand but as I stated before much of his interpretation of scripture is based upon the works of his predecessors and their interpretation of Scripture. They have, in the eyes of the church contributed much to our understanding of Scripture.

What counts is that Calvin has defended his viewpoints from scriptures and while some may agree with us, others may not. Like I stated before, Calvinism is as interpretative as Scripture itself.
---leej on 11/30/10


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Reformers don't base their faith in anyone other then Jesus Christ our Savior and His works on the cross, and His resurrection. Faith in any other is not saving faith. That faith comes from God as a gift of God when a person is born of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/10


//Reformers do not base their faith on Father Abraham...not even close.

Your statement depicts your lack of understanding of what the Reformers actually believed. The Reformers based their faith on what Scripture was saying to them, not on something speculative like "the faith of Abraham".

Their cry was sola scriptura, sola gratia, and sola fide = scripture alone, grace alone, and faith alone.

Please forgive me but I think you are really in the fog when it comes to this subject.

You really need to declare a truce with your war on the Reformers and the Reformation otherwise you will continue to contribute nothing to this tread.
---leej on 11/30/10


Israel was chosen as a nation, not as individuals. It was chosen to be the nation for which God would deal with mankind through, and the nation that would someday bring us Jesus. All Israelites who rejected the gospel were not of the elect. Only those who were saved were of the elect. And there was many. One day the spiritual Israel will be saved too, the Elect which will come from Israel, only those who believe in Christ Jesus, and will be a part of the body of Christ the Church. All others will be lost, for not all Israel is Israel.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/10


I really hate mens doctrines.
We should only say, God reconciled the world to HIMSELF through Christ, not counting mens sins against them. This means everyone can now come to GOD for salvation if they so choose . Whosoever will, through faith in HIS SON.
---duane on 11/30/10


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You know, Jesus is the bread of LIFE. In the OT, the manna that came down had to be eaten that day. Anything left over got yucky worms on it. Uneatable. It seems the same with Calvinists. Repetitious ..the same ol same ol verses they were taught to fight against the truth. NOTHING new. When you give them truth from many different perspectives, you get this you dont know what youre talking about, you dont know anything, kinda stuff. Well, they dont understand it, because they have only been taught one verse. You can see from that that they really cant think for themselves, are not GROWING in the Grace and Knowledge of Him. If its not in the institutes, its not truth.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


leej, get out of town. CUTE, however a LIE.

Reformers do not base their faith on Father Abraham...not even close.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


leej, how can you on one hand condemn calvin and then uplift him?

And as for your dictionary definition, that is man's definition. We are talking about God's definition. We cannot look at predestination without looking at the words God said like whosoever will, choose life or death, etc. They go hand in hand. So, that tells me that it is the plan and the place that are predetermined after one chooses, not the person themselves chosen before they were even born.
God knowing the plan from beginning to the end does not mean he chooses who will and won't be saved. It means he knows who will choose him and who won't and where they will go after their choice.
---ginger on 11/30/10


kathr4453 - If you were to study Calvinism, you would probably find they fully agree with Romans 4:12,16.

In any case, thanks for agreeing with me that most of Calvins interpretations were based on the fathers of the church. And that much was their interpretation of scripture.

And much like the scripture itself, what Calvinism believes is really a matter of interpretation. Golly, there is even an article entitled 'Was Calvin a Calvinist"!
---leej on 11/30/10


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Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

The ONLY Church Father I have is Father Abraham, and of Coarse Paul who is the FATHER to the Gospel of Grace, based SOLELY on our Father Abraham faith!.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


Who said most baptist are calvanist? I have never, I said never been in a baptist church who believes in (tulip). It is quite opposite. The bible teaches we are all elected before the foundation of the world. Some are chosen to be preachers. John 3:16 is a simple verse than says calvanist are wrong, wrong, wrong. We do believe in total depravity. We believe in grace...irrestible. I don't know what you mean by that one. Atonemenet is not limited to us. Perserverance of the saints is a good one. We do believe that. I think we should all strive to perservere.
---shira3877 on 11/30/10


The Word of God tells us the Christian election to the Kingdom of God is clearly unconditional.
---christan on 11/29/10

Really? Well, flesh and blood cannot enter.

Liars, thieves and drunkerds cannot enter.

and anyone still in their adam 1 fallen state cannot enter.

The CONDITION is that only THROUGH Christ, THROUGH Calvary can anyone enter!
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


Two-words found often in the Bible completely defeats five-point Calvinism and those words are WHOSOEVER WILL.
---mima on 11/30/10


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Its like Kathr said. Its an obsession with some rather than a doctrine. No man of God is afraid to reexamine what he has been taught to further his relationship with Jesus Christ.

No person in their right mind can hold 15 verses of scripture as truth when theres are hundreds that disagree with those few.

It is nothing more than a form self-delusion because as leej said some people just cant handle the truth. We see this same self-delusion in atheists when they ask they same questions over and over again and never listen to the answer that is given because its not what they WANT to hear. Then they claim we gave them no answer at all.
---JackB on 11/30/10


ginger //By the way, predestinate means predetermine, NOT prechosen.

If you look up the dictionary definition of both predestination and predetermination you will find that in some sense there is a difference and in some sense they are the same. What you really end up doing with these terms is to get into the issue of free will which no theologian has yet come up with any convincing arguments one way or the other.

The arguments become very futile and circular.
---leej on 11/30/10


Election and salvation are two different topics and are defined differently. Election are God's chosen people from the creation of the world. It does not mean they have been saved already, but that all will be save at some point or another. All of God's elect will be reborn, and will commit their lives to Christ through faith in the Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/10

Well, markV, Israel MINE ELECT, that rejected Christ, those who have already died will never have the chance to be re-born!


So there ya go, Elect and Saved are two entirely different matters!
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


Election and salvation are two different topics and are defined differently. Election are God's chosen people from the creation of the world. It does not mean they have been saved already, but that all will be save at some point or another. All of God's elect will be reborn, and will commit their lives to Christ through faith in the Word of God. No one knows who they are. Only God. For God is not a God of time who waits to find out who will or who won't believe in Him. All are known by God from the foundation of the world for they are all present before Him.
---Mark_V. on 11/30/10


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historically recorded, john calvin was a most evil man. despite history, we continue to herald the man.
---aka on 11/29/10

Amen!!
Jesus said we shall know a person is of him by the fruit they bare. The last I checked, the fruits of the Spirit of Christ do not include murder because someone disagrees with you.
That is some really BAD fruit and bad fruit can't come from a good tree. So why do people continue you to follow after a bad tree that produced bad fruit?
I don't get it!
---ginger on 11/30/10


aka//historically recorded, john calvin was a most evil man. despite history, we continue to herald the man.

That is what every Roman Catholic is taught in their schools.

The foundation for the Protestant church is reflected in Calvin's writings, primarily The Institutes of the Christian Religion. If you have not read that, then we can only assume you are dedicated to being ignorant.

In any case, please address what in TULIP you find objectionable- the topic of this tread.
---leej on 11/30/10


Most Baptist churches are Calvinist in their theology and feel they can defend what they beleive. One should realize that Calvin based most if not all of his interpretations of scripture on his predecessors, namely Augustine of Hippo. So if you slam old Calvin, then you should give the other church fathers a kick also.
---leej on 11/30/10


Man is not totally depraved.
Election is conditional upon faith in Christ(You don't get the election/adoption, until you believe Christ)
Atonement is not limited
Grace is irresistible because it is a gift. You can choose to accept it or not.
Perseverance of the saints is not true at all. We are only justified in/through/by Christ. It is not us who is doing the persevering. It is Christ.
---ginger on 11/29/10

Point one through 5 AMEN!!!
---Pharisee on 11/30/10


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Calvin's Election is IDENTITY THEFT:

Onward Christian soldiers sail,
Across the sea and show your tail,
March or' those lands and place your mark,
With Israel's LOST or STOLEN Ark.

We are REFORMED Theology
And we give NO Apology,
Marching or' the Land you see
To rid your homes of MTV.

No Gospel here for you and me,
They only squeel hahah-hehehe!
"God hates the lost so you will see"
We'll purge the Land, you wait and see!
---kathr4453 on 11/30/10


I find that Calvinism is pseudo Christianity due to the fact that it attempts to misrepresent choice. God doesnt make us do anything or predestine us or pre program us to task. We make decisions in life that offer rewards or consequences. Atom made a choice that God graciously correct on the cross, but it was a choice Atom made, he had directive not to but did it anyway. I think God explains it all in Joshua 24:15 concerning choices. God Bless, Paul
---paul on 11/30/10


Christan, do you realize you were a goat before you accepted Christ? Oh yes, every person is until they repent and believe tha Gospel that is preached to them.

By the way, predestinate means predetermine, NOT prechosen.
That means God predetermined the place you will go after judgement. If you are a sheep, heaven. If you are a goat, hell.
God has predetermined that sheep get the blessing and goats get punishment for willful disobedience.
You need to stop cherry picking verses and read them in their context and maybe you will learn some thing instead of kicking against the thorn.
---ginger on 11/30/10


historically recorded, john calvin was a most evil man. despite history, we continue to herald the man.
---aka on 11/29/10


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Christan,
Are you saying that You don't have to have Christ to be elected to the kingdom of God?
That is straight up blashpemy brother.
Christ is the only way and the only door.
So, your deduction of scripture is so wrong that I refuse to listen to anyone who says we don't have to be in Christ FIRST to become elected which by the way really means ADOPTED.
You have to have faith FIRST in Christ to become elected.
And Grace is the gift NOT faith.
What you are speaking now is blasphemy, seriously.
You need to get out of that false doctrine and really into Christ like Paul and the other apostles teach.
In fact, look how many times Paul tells us that we must be in Christ FIRST. You will be surprised.
---ginger on 11/29/10


Christians, why do you ignore William Tyndale's theology (for the most part)?

After reading William Tyndale's writings, I learned to stop murmuring against predestination.


''Predestinate'' is in the Bible.
---A_humble_servant_-Kev on 11/29/10


Alan of UK, "Good Samaritan, Prodigal Son, John 3.16, Matt ... Sheep & Goats, Talents, Matt 25.13, Matt 24.45, & many other parables, show God allowing people free will."

First of all, only His Sheep are saved. Goats represented vessels of dishonor created for destruction.

As for "Good Samaritan, Prodigal Son, Sheep, Talent, Wheat (these represents God's elect)", - Their actions were because of: "For it is God which worketh in you(them) both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13), "For we(they) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we(they) should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)
---christan on 11/29/10


"Election is conditional upon faith in Christ (You don't get the election/adoption, until you believe Christ)" - Ginger

Is this "scripture" according to the Word of God or Ginger?

I know it's definitely not from the Word of God, for it is written in Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."

The Word of God tells us the Christian election to the Kingdom of God is clearly unconditional.
---christan on 11/29/10


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The verse MY PEOPLE refer to Israel. If one studies the language of scripture Israel is MY PEOPLE.

But then again, if christian insists he is MY PEOPLE, then God has asked YOU to turn from YOUR wicked ways, and humble yourself that the LAND can be healed. It's then ALL your fault and all your wickedness that the land has been defiled.

However the Body of Christ is never called MY PEOPLE. Or are we as those IN CHRIST wicked. That is blasphemy and accuses the Lord Himself of being wicked.

Yet the Calvinists love to PRAY THIS PRAYER OVER AMERICA ADMITTING they are the evil ones!
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


Man is not totally depraved.
Election is conditional upon faith in Christ(You don't get the election/adoption, until you believe Christ)
Atonement is not limited
Grace is irressistible because it is a gift. You can choose to accept it or not.
Perseverance of the saints is not true at all. We are only justified in/through/by Christ. It is not us who is doing the persevering. It is Christ.
---ginger on 11/29/10


Irresistible Grace - the teaching is based on the belief the direct operation of the Holy Spirit. The chosen have NO choice or participation in their salvation. The Spirit overwhems them even against their own will, according to Augustinism. Calvinism teaches that man, any man, who has not experienced this irrestible working and transformation effected by the Spirit, cannot understand the gospel (Romans 1:16, Eph. 3,3ff). Hence w/o this special working man cannot be saved.

This TULIP is probably the most questionable, especially for those whose soteriology involves works.
---leej on 11/29/10


Its always the same 10-15 verses they stick to. Theyll take them to their death.

They dont care that hundreds of other scriptures disagree with those few.

Thats when you know someone is in a cult.
---JackB on 11/29/10


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Limited Atonement: is the position that since God arbitrarily chose those who would be saved, Jesus only died for those individuals.

However, the scriptures teach that Jesus tasted death for 'every man' (Hebr. 2:9).

God would have all men saved, but only a few desire to be saved (1 Tim.2:3-6, Mt. 7:13-14).

And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2,2)
---leej on 11/29/10


Christan ... Good Samaritan, Prodigal Son, John 3.16, Matt ... Sheep & Goats, Talents, Matt 25.13, Matt 24.45, & many other parables, show God allowing people free will.
---alan_of_uk on 11/29/10


The Synod of Dordt is not God. These were meer men fighting against the Arminians. I have already state through Hebrews 6 there is no such thing as irresistable grace.

These men, along with those who wrote the Westminster Confession, state the Law is still a rule of thumb they live by...but not the sabbbath?? These POLITICALLY DRIVEN christians wouldn't know the Holy Spirit, or how the Spirit works in our life if He bit them on the nose. They are Reforming Catholicism. But if you've never been RCC, you don't need REFORMING!
---kathr4453 on 11/29/10


LIMITED ATONEMENT

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the GRACE of God should taste death for every man

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way, and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all
---JackB on 11/29/10


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Heres a good one to explain away....

Romans 5:18,19

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Personal belief here: All men are sanctified by the blood of Christ until the day comes that they hear the gospel and reject it. That is when they are denying the Lord who bought them and their names are taken out of the Lambs book of life. Ive come to this conclusion based on many verses that dont seem to fit together. Its the only logical conclusion I can come up with.
---JackB on 11/29/10


Limited Atonement:
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)

Irresistible Grace:
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:37)

Perseverance of the Saints:
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly, and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

There's many more verses from where it came from in the Holy Bible.
---christan on 11/29/10


Actually, these five points are not from Calvin's teaching, but from the Synod of Dordt (aka Dodrecht).
---Cluny on 11/29/10


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