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Disobedience Change Future

Is disobedience against God going to change the outcome of the future? Opinions with Scripture.

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 ---Mark_V. on 12/4/10
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Foolish statements from Kathr,

" christian, Jesus said,
All the day long I have stretched out my hand to you, but YOU WOULD NOT!"

The gospel goes out to all nations. But Faith comes from God as a gift.
She said,
FREE WILL, can resist Christ, also resist the Holy Spirit."
The will of the lost is not free, it is enslaved to sin, for they are children of wrath. For they walk "according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as others" Eph. 2:2.3.
---Mark_V. on 12/9/10


kathr, over and over again you fail to understand that when God commands, it does not mean that the man has the ability to obey. Look at what happened to Adam and Eve. They failed. Are you to tell me that you are better than Adam with regards to obeying God's command? If you are, theses verses does not apply to you -

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned..." Romans 5:12

"...not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:9

So clearly you claim to everyone that you choose Christ out of your own freewill and it has nothing to do with God's grace. That's boasting! You glorify yourself over God.
---christan on 12/9/10


Kathr in her tirades against what she beleives is Calvinism, claims the Potter does not have any rights over the clay.(read Romans 9:21f)
leej,

leej, the clay here Paul quoted is from OT concerning Israel. Not the Clay Adam was made from.

God has absolute Sovereignty over Israel. But you need to know Paul was quoting OT about teh Nation, not teh individual.

In Rebecca's womb were TWO NATIONS. Totally different than Ishmael and Isaac.

Also since you love to read, You may want to read GRACE by Louis Sperry Chafer.

Those of us IN CHRIST are not CLAY any longer after Adam. We are a NEW CREATURE!
---kathr4453 on 12/9/10


MarkV,
God did not withold his power. It was right there in the garden with Adam and Eve. It is called the tree of life.
They had eternal life because they could eat freely of it and they did.
They chose to disobey God by eating of the TKGE.
God even gave man a chance to repent then. He asked them "Who told you that you were naked?" If they would have fessed up to God then, he would have forgiven them. But they did not.
---ginger on 12/9/10


Is disobedience against God going to change the outcome of the future? Opinions with Scripture.

It will change the future of the individual.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death, but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But Gods general purpose of the salvation of mankind will be carried out
---FRANCIS on 12/10/10




"Jack B, the answer to your question is that they were predestined to sin. A plan is a plan. And with God that plan is complete before Him. It is not subject to change or subject to mens actions.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/09"

What is YOUR definition of "predestined", sir?

"Foreknowledge does not make future acts certain but only assumes them to be so, and it is a contradiction of terms to say that God foreknows as certain an event which in its very nature is uncertain"
--- MarkV on 12/25/09
---JackB on 12/10/10


To Jack who accuses me, I did say,
"word) He claimed God withheld the power from Adam and Eve that would have kept them from sinning."
Because He did withheld His power that would have stopped Eve and Adam from sinning. He is God and could have stopped it. But He didn't. His plan could have been where there would be no Trees to eat from, or no Satan to tempt Eve. Or no garden with Tree's. The fact is that God did put the garden there and the trees there and also gave a commandment, "do not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil." In the day they did, they would surely die. God didn't have to give them that commandment. Or the curse that followed.
---Mark_V. on 12/9/10


christian, Jesus said,
All the day long I have stretched out my hand to you, but YOU WOULD NOT!

FREE WILL, can resist Christ, also resist the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Your wisdom has disqualified you christian, markv, leej.

Where does it say the Foolishness of PICKING who I want?
---kathr4453 on 12/9/10


to the accuser 2: I did also say that God ordained everything that will come to pass. What I didn't say was,

"God leads men into sin and then condemns them for it? That is against scripture."
You twist what I say because you have no understanding of God.
I never said what you quoted, you did. God does not lead anyone to sin, they sin because they love to sin and because they are sinners from the curse. God is Omniscient who knows all. He doesn't condemn the innocent, only the wicked, for anything without faith in Christ is sin. He knows who will make a commitment to Christ by faith and who won't. He already knows who will be standing in front of the Great white Throne of Judgment, be sure you are not found there.
---Mark_V. on 12/9/10


I totally denounce the doctrine of freewill and everything that's attached to it. //
That is fine Christan. You can be a mindless robot who sins and thinks God ordained it. (Even though that is not what the Bible says)
God did not create sin. God did not ordain sin. God is not the author of sin.
He did not make us to sin. He created us to glorify him. The word says that.
Do you realize you are contradicting Gensis with what you say?
God created man and said it was Good. So, if we were created Good, then how is God the author of sin?
---ginger on 12/9/10




-- JackB :

this is exactly why I keep record of what people say.--JackB

Brother, It's great to carry around & allow your Peace to rest upon things that are edifying, but you'll only lose your Peace carrying around the unworthy dust of evil things just to hound, mock or taunt others until you witness a change in their Heart, and never gain the Wisdom to Understand why, b/c Understanding come from departing evil, not from carrying it around with you !!!

There's a very good reason why we shouldn't drag the dirt of things from one Blog thread to another... and Matt.10:13-14 & Job 28:28 is a big apart of why you should leave behind those unedifying records you're keeping.

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---Shawn.M.T. on 12/9/10


Matthew 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. KJV
Mat 5:41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. NASB
---micha9344 on 12/9/10


// I have quoted to you and your cohorts numerous verses that slashes and trample your doctrine of freewill to dust and yet you accuse me of standing on one verse alone?

Kathr in her tirades against what she beleives is Calvinism, claims the Potter does not have any rights over the clay.(read Romans 9:21f)

In believing all were created equal, she believes all of us will be given the same opportunities and be given the same blessings. But that conflicts with the will of God both for individuals and for nations.

She really needs to study Calvinism from a scriptural standpoint instead of getting her information from some slopbucket pastor who has a vacuum head for a brain.
---leej on 12/9/10


is obedience seeking approval? when you disobey someone is it sin? christ did not seek the approval of the pharisees, experts in the law. he even rebuked them & called them hypocrites.
in the movie troy, achilles said 'don't waste your time following some fool's orders'
---mike on 12/9/10


Robyn, thank you for your kind offer to "help me in my faithwalk." I do not speak for Mike, and as for me, I totally denounce the doctrine of freewill and everything that's attached to it.

So long as anyone who stands behind freewill, there's not an ounce of truth behind what they say of Jesus in the Holy Bible that I have come to know by the grace of God through faith, which He has so graciously bless me with. And I never even ever seek for Him let alone think about Him before.

And as for my walk with the Lord, I have the Holy Spirit to guide and chastise me. He is the only one who will lead me to all truth and comfort me as promised by my brother and friend Jesus Christ.
---christan on 12/9/10


//he's never said what you & Kathr claim.//

Shawn, this is exactly why I keep record of what people say. He HAS indeed said that in the past (although not word for word) He claimed God withheld the power from Adam and Eve that would have kept them from sinning. In other words, God ordained the fall of mankind. God leads men into sin and then condemns them for it? That is against scripture.

IF MarkV has since changed his mind then praise God for that and I offer my apologies.
---JackB on 12/9/10


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Mike--- Where do you find that verse that speaks of "running another mile for your bretheren"? Can you give a scripture reference so I can find it?
---Donna66 on 12/8/10


Christian/Mike: Please stop and let a mature and loving christian help you with your faithwalk. They will be happy to disciple you.You are struggling with the scriptures and are debating something you know nothing about. You are speaking from your human and carnal mind, not your spiriitual mind. God does not deal with us carnally/fleshly. He deals with our heart and our spirit man. Please learn the correct way to study and interpret the Word of God. Ask god to open the eyes of your heart and mind when you open your bible and began to study the Word and during your prayer time. God's blessings to you.
---Robyn on 12/8/10


kathr "christian, it is a shame you stand on one verse alone."

Really? I have quoted to you and your cohorts numerous verses that slashes and trample your doctrine of freewill to dust and yet you accuse me of standing on one verse alone? Look in the mirror when you say that.

Just as Truth stood before Pilate in Christ's death sentence, he couldn't see. And why? Because in God's plan of predestination, Herod and Pilate was created vessels of dishonor to serve God's Holy purpose. Go read Acts 4:27,28 and deny the Truth. And yet you exalt freewill?

And truth be told, you bring arguments and debates to a schoolyard level when you call Calvinists bullies. Really?
---christan on 12/8/10


what about 'running another mile for your brethren'. I obeyed that verse & ran another mile for my brethren even the non believers. what happened they abuse & take advantage.
what christianity gave was exhaustion, weight on my shoulder, & more bondage.

so has anybody 'denied himself' lately?
we are told to obey this verse.
---mike on 12/8/10


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Jerry - did Jesus come to save us from Sin or from the Law?

Galatians 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,To redeem THEM THAT WERE UNDER THE LAW that we might receive the adoption of sons.
---leej on 12/5/10

Jerry, you might ask professHER wannabe when she came to be redeemed under the laws mentioned in Galations above.

If she wasn't under the law to begin with....how did she sin?
Perhaps it could have been in her heritage,divorced Israel. And if she has the laws in her heart now....but, I'm still looking for evidence of those. Heb 8:10.
---Trav on 12/8/10


christian, it is a shame you stand on one verse alone. All truth has at least two witnesses.

Now Peter tells us, that God is not WILLing...God's will here that any should perish.

Jesus also states in John 12 that HE Himself will draw men unto Himself.

So, a good student takes ALL scripture and brings it before the Lord. You have not done that.

I can give you 50 verses opposing any one single verse you take out of context and show you you have. do you listen. NO!

So christian, as I have many times explained John 6, YOU will not listen anyway.

Because you are blind to any truth except of your own choosing, don't ask me that again!
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


I do not get angry, I rejoice when people speak falsely against me and say all kinds of false things about me when I speak on behalf of God. For the Word of God tells me,
"Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, etc. and "If we endure (suffer with Him) we shall also reign with Him"
But I do not rejoice in those who will be chastened for what they are doing. Many times the chastening is so hard, you will feel like you cannot hold out for it will be painful. I don't rejoice for that.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/10


Christan, your post seems like you think God puts somekind of mind control thing on us.
It is God's spirit that draws, not his will. Let's get the proper terms here.
God's actual will is that everyman be saved.

Jesus says that he is the door and no one can come to God except through him.
Anyone can pick out a verse and build a doctrine out of it but is it a true doctrine? no. We must read the Bible without bias/limitations and sincerely ask God to show us. Otherwise you only get 1/2 of what God wants you to know.
Start by reading the Bible without the verses/chapters.(they were only put there for reference points anyway)
---ginger on 12/8/10


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All this stuff revolves around our will being free to choose, or our will not being free to choose. If we are not free to choose who we will serve, then why give men brains or even proclaim the Gospel. God will choose for us. We are like clay, God will make us or break us.
Does God really take pride in any soul that didnt have a choice to serve Him in love?
---calhoon on 12/8/10


I obeyed 'honor your father & mother' commandment. my father was verbally abusive I ended up dysfunctional.

another is a pastor told me'S I N middle of sin is I, I missed opportunities & 'blessings'

finally, I saw the news about JIM jones & david koresh. many died bec. they obeyed. yes, that changed their future
---mike on 12/8/10


-- JackB :

When I see garbage being spewed.. I HAVE to respond.--JackB

Brother, It's you & Kathr who have unnecessarily spewing garbage on this thread. MarkV has shared God doesn't make us sin and that he's never said what you & Kathr claim.

Use hospitality one to another without grudging, among each INDIVIDUAL Brethren... no matter denomination, and don't hound, mock or taunt, b/c charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

JackB, While others here have realized their mocking was uncalled for & turned away from it, you take Pride in it & boast of continuing... You'll never gain Understanding that way b/c Understanding come from departing evil(Job 28:28) not from carrying it around with you !!!
---ShawnM.T. on 12/8/10


Nope, disobedience is not going to change the future.
It will cause you to get a "whipping" from God, though

hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed (stumble) bec of lack of knowledge...I will also reject you & you shall not be priest to me bec. you reject knowledge.

that is why I don't obey malachi. the only reason why priest are 'blessed' is bec. THEY receive the money.
---mike on 12/8/10


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"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14
---christan on 12/8/10


Shes not the only one guilty of bringing up old arguments Shawn. If you really wanted to be fair about it, you would correct your Calvinist brother as well. Otherwise you come across as siding with someone in their wrong just because they are of the same denomination.

And I sorry, but Im like Kathr. When I see garbage being spewed and possibly affecting a non-believer I HAVE to respond. That is my job as a child of God to make sure the lost know their God still loves them and I will NEVER stop teaching them so. It matters nothing to me that some dont like it.
---JackB on 12/7/10


The James 1:13 comment wasnt specifically directed at you, Shawn, but other Hypers who would dare accuse our Holy Father of ordaining men to sin and condemnation when James says he would NEVER do such a thing.

I hope youre not one of those fools.
---JackB on 12/7/10


Kathr, you said "...and ALL who come to Christ by FREE WILL will enter the New Heaven and earth."

How does your own scripture (I am lost as to which part of the Scripture you got this from) fit in with Christ's declaration in John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Clearly, a sinner is drawn to Christ by God's will as declared here. Why do you continue to exalt in something that does not even exist? In short, you make it sound like God is contending with man's will. What man can see the kingdom of heaven and still want to reject it?

And in your own declaration, you have just called Christ a liar.
---christan on 12/8/10


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ShawnMT, the whole premise of Markv's question is based on that very fact. We all can see and know that, but you can't?

What I see you doing ShawnMT is controlling this thread so it will come out the way you want it too.

And since you were not the one posting the question, why are you controlling it.

FREE WILL Disobedience or FREE WILL Obedience to the call of the Gospel will not change the future.

God didn't need to make anyone disobedient to assure the outcome.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


Ginger, you have it about right. First, God does not make us sin, people sin because they are sinners. Second, the actions of man are all included in the plan of God. He took those sins into account and the results of those sins. Third, God is outside of time, He has seen the whole plan because He created it. Everything is present before Him. He does not wait for something to happen to know, He already knows. His plan is unfolding before our eyes because we live through time. No one knows who is going to be saved and who is not. Only God knows. Here people don't want God to know. They want to be the determinaters of their lives. So they fight for their rights.
Next, I never say what Kathr and Jack say that I say. They just don't understand.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/10


Shawn, with love brother, to say God created sin and causes people to sin, is a sin and should be rebuked.
This person has been rebuked for this for as far back as I can remember. And this certainly does have something to do with the blog question.
Since we know God foresees the future, does God cause man to sin? Certainly not. Did God create some to purposefully sin? Certainly not. God knowing does not mean he caused it.
So, when a person in Christ says these things against God, h/she should be rebuked because it sin.

Do you believe that God cause man to sin?
Or did man choose to sin and God knew he would?
---ginger on 12/8/10


--- JackB :

Does it really matter what blog he said it in?If he's had a change of heart in his beliefs he could simply say so.--JackB

Brother, Sure it does !!! It has nothing to do with this thread and the accused hasn't stated it here... Plus, If it's not edifying, why keep dragging it around with you & bringing it up until you witness a change in their Heart.

Glory be to God when we're foretunate to witness a change in some ones Heart, but we're not suppose to hound nor taunt individuals until we see it.

BTW~ James 1:13 nor any other verse needs to be twisted in order to explain the Unchangable Foreseen Future God had Foreknowledge of BTFOTW.
---ShawnM.T. on 12/7/10


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-- Pharisee :

Shawn loosen up the bolts in your neck-- Pharisee

Brother, Your mockery is wasted on me, and not just b/c I really don't know what your above babbling means... but I do know it's petty & isn't edifying any one nor Glorifying to the Lord.

So, You simply meant to say his responses was perfect.... Hmmmm !!! Since when is taunting anyone considered a perfect response!?!

It's nice of you to share that you can admit when you're wrong Brother... but that between God & you !!!

Good Day
---Shawn.M.T on 12/7/10


Nope, disobedience is not going to change the future.
It will cause you to get a "whipping" from God, though. And really disobedience is taking the long way around to get to God.
I know for me, I really went the long way around, Lol.
I had to go through a lot to figure out I need God, God loves me and he only wants HIS best for me.
No, God is not the author of sin, either. He will certainly use my decision to sin(if I do) to teach me right from wrong. We should only have to go around the tree once, lol.
---ginger on 12/7/10


//Markv stated God created and ordained all our rebellion and disobedience.--Kathr

Sister, MarkV didn't state the above on this thread//

Does it really matter what blog he said it in? If he's had a change of heart in his beliefs he could simply say so. Since he hasnt, apparently he still feels the same way so what Kathr said is valid!

And why is it that no Calvinists respond to James 1:13 ? There must be some way to twist that set of scripture. Cmon guys. Youre slacking.
---JackB on 12/7/10


Is disobedience against God going to change the outcome of the future? Opinions with Scripture.


---Mark_V. on 12/4/10


No MarkV, and anyone's free will OBEDIENCE will not change the outcome either.

God is still going to be on His throne, Sovereignty intact!
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10


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Mark 13:23 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

To this I agree.
---char on 12/7/10


ShawnMT, I am in keeping with this blog. Our individual disobedience/ or individual faith and obedience does NOT change the future. The New Heaven and earth are still on schedule, Satan will finally be overthrown, and ALL who come to Christ by FREE WILL will enter the New Heaven and earth. Believe me, there is more than enough room for everyone!
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10


Abraham obeyed God, and this is what the LORD said to Abraham > "'In your seed

all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,

because you have obeyed My voice.'" (Genesis 22:18) So, the obedience of Abraham is a significant part of why we humans in history have been "blessed".

But disobedience does effect what happens to people, but no one can change whatever is really going to happen (c: All is destiny, then.
---Bill_willa6989 on 12/7/10


-- Kathr :

Markv stated God created and ordained all our rebellion and disobedience.--Kathr

Sister, MarkV didn't state the above on this thread, so let's look to keep our sharing in every Blog thread edifying by endeavoring to depart other threads in Peace through shaking the dust from each thread off our feet and not carrying what we feel is dirt into new threads !!!

If you're in Hope of clearing up anything or share your Understanding of something, then feel free to start a new Blog thread specifically addressing that issue.
---ShawnM.T. on 12/7/10


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Shawn loosen up the bolts in your neck, I was simply in my own way saying his responses were perfect. Rebuke yourself, I admit when I'm wrong so should you.
---Pharisee on 12/7/10


Macha, brother I forgive you, I had no doubt you were my brother in Christ. Sure, we will disagree on some things, but it is only because some times we have already made up our minds and refuse to see the Word of God for what it is. I did that many years ago and missed a whole lot. One thing we need to agree on is, that the Word of God is truth, even when we do not understand some things. If we agree on that, we have a great start. Those who get sarcastic and make slanderous remarks only add to their sins. Preaching the Gospel truth to a new person who doesn't know about Christ should be done in Truth and in love. But here we answer as if everyone is saved, so we don't know for sure. Thanks brother, blessings and peace to you.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/10


However ShawnMT, if I created the vegetable perfect, and the vegetable did something corrupting itself, whereby corrupting all that are produced afte that ...then and only then would the vegetable need to ask my forgivness.

But why on earth would I prepick any veg to give forgivness to and not offer it to all my corrupt vegetables? I want a full crop of Lovely vegetables.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10


Thank you ShawnMT. I see now that my responses on alot of these blogs have been critical lately. I must thefefore ask forgiveness to MarkV, francis, and any others whom I have caused strife and have not spoken the truth in love.
Our passion in our beliefs can skew if not held to His standard by which we communicate with each other.
My mocking of MarkV's beliefs was uncalled for, regardless of my thoughts toward them. I appreciate the rebuke so that I can continue to grow in Christ.
So, MarkV, even though we disagree in certain areas, I do ask forgiveness for my unedifying responses.
---micha9344 on 12/7/10


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shawnMT, Markv stated God created and ordained all our rebellion and disobedience. I disagree. God created Adam & Eve PERFECT as well as Lucifer.

Adam & Eve as well as Lucifer disobeyed God. Know teh difference.

However if all our disobedience/rebellion was foreordained by God to begin with, why would MarkV then have to BEG GOD to forgive his rebellion and disobedience God foreordained to begin with?

If I could create a vegetable that was corrupt and diseased, why would the vegetable have to ask me for forgiveness for being corrupt and diseased?
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10


-- Pharisee :

JackB you're in charge of predestination arguments henceforth...at least you get my vote!-- Pharisee

Brother, Never be so lazy as to make your arm flesh like you have in your above statement... b/c "Thus saith the LORD, Cursed be the man that Trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose Heart departeth from the LORD." Jer.17:5

It's the Holy Spirit which gets God's Children's Vote & Trust to explain & share Predestination for us !!!
---Shawn.M.T on 12/6/10


-- Kathr :

There is no disobedience to God for all are doing what He wants them to do...clay pots and all right MarkV? ---Micha9344

Micha9344, That's a great point. Now my question is, if this is a fact MarkV states -- Kathr


Sister, This isn't a fact nor Belief stated by MarkV. It's the unproductive sarcastic comment of Micha... So don't get pulled into making any more sarcastic questions or statements, b/c they will never Glorify the Lord !!!
---Shawn.M.T. on 12/6/10


//which means Pharaoh was created for a purpose and that is to disobey God//---Christan

Opinion without applying scripture that explain the very nature of God.

James 1:13 says NOT to think this way.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUST, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren.
---JackB on 12/6/10


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//Did God show mercy to Pharaoh? No!//

He set him as ruler over Israel. Id say thats pretty merciful and gracious.

// And "all" here does not represent every mankind.//

Right.... "all" no longer means all, and "world" no longer means world, and "every man" no longer means every man and, "whosoever" no longer means whosoever...

Oh wait! Unless its in one of the scriptures you guys use to back up your doctrine. Then they mean EXACTLY what they say.
---JackB on 12/7/10


Did God show mercy to Pharaoh? No! And "all" here does not represent every mankind.
---christan on 12/6/10


christian, Did God show mercy on the first Pharaoh recorded in scripture. The One Joseph was sold to? Well, lets compare the two. Not only did God show mercy to Joseph's Pharaoh, but blessed everyone because Pharaoh blessed Joseph's God.

Pharaoh #2 cursed and FORGOT the God of Joseph just as Exodus begins, therefore bringing God's wrath on themselves.

I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you..GOD ALREADY said He would, and shows that He did just that, and WILL do it again at the end of the age!

That is Roms 9-11! They are STILL beloved of the Father!
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10


Macha, the reason I ask if anyone was home was because I as a person, (not God,) don't know if anyone home. God does. I'm not God. And don't have an argument with God. Yes, I'm here because of God, and so is Jack. Everyone is where God wants them to be. People say and do what is in their hearts, but God already took that into account in His plan. Nothing will change of what is written. Not one tittle. It will be as God wants it to be. Your arguments are against our Ruler. In your mind you refuse to let God rule anything, you want man to rule. Yet you complain to me and Christian and others who speak for God.
"The Kings heart is in the hand of the Lord, as rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will" Prov. 21:1.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/10


Macha 2: Out of the heart are
"the issues of life" Prov. 4:23, for as a man "thinketh in his heart, so is he" Prov.23:7. If then the heart is in the hand of the Lord, and if "He turneth it whithersoever He will," then is it not clear that men, governors and rulers , and so all men, are completely beneath the governmental control of the Almighty? The rich fool, he devised a plan to store his fruits and goods and tells his soul he would store his goods for years. He kept saying "I will" but all were in vain, for God said unto him, "thou fool, this night shall thy soul be required of thee" Luke 12:17-20. The "I will" think they have it figured out.
---Mark_V. on 12/7/10


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World wide flood- c.2350bc
Chinese Shang Dynasty-first written record-c.1700bc
Phoenician(Canaanite)-origins c.2300bc peaking c.1200bc
You know Canaan,son of Cush, son of Ham, son of Noah.
Egyptian written record is noted at c.2600bc
(and Trav says AHA!)
Assyrians first inscriptions-c.2000bc
You know Asshur, son of Shem, son of Noah to which Nimrod came to build Ninevah of Assyria and other cities.
All this happened right around the time of the Tower of Babel. How about that?
My earlier date of 2700bc was off, my apologies.
Also, secular timelines are not very reliable since they are ever changing, unlike the Bible and taking Him at His Word.
---micha9344 on 12/6/10


JackB you're in charge of predestination arguments henceforth...at least you get my vote!

Romans 9 is not adequate to expound the deeper truths of this matter and reconcile the verses contained therein to the rest of the scripture. I'm not saying this is what Peter is talking about unless you want to put it in a prophetic tense.

"As also in all his epistles, (Paul's) speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2Peter 3:16
---Pharisee on 12/6/10


JackB, you have your horse and cart all over the place in your theology. Let's first agree that it is God who creates everything in the world, and that includes Pharaoh, the very subject we're discussing.

Now, not only did God create Pharaoh, He tells us that He "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up...", which means Pharaoh was created for a purpose and that is to disobey God. Disobedience is the cause and effect of being hardened. And who does the hardening?

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

Did God show mercy to Pharaoh? No! And "all" here does not represent every mankind.
---christan on 12/6/10


yes definitely.
I was brainwashed obeying malachi & 10%. for years & years I trusted & obeyed giving money to churches but I was still living paycheck to paycheck
I read proverbs & working hard & sharpening your skills. It changed my outlook.
---mike on 12/6/10


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-- JackB & MarkV :

"A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directed his steps" Prov. 16:9.-- MarkV 12/5/10

Pharaoh's heart chose his way, God directed his steps.-- JackB 12/6/10


Brethren, It's good to finally see the both of you in 'One Accord' in this matter of God's Foreknowledge, despite the continuously unproductive sarcastic comments by Micha like "There is no disobedience to God for all are doing what He wants them to do" and "we are not responsible for the actions God makes us do."

... and Hopefully you'll come to See & Hear how the Truth of Prov.16:9 & James 1:13 is revealed in God's Predestination through Causality !?!
---Shawn.M.T on 12/6/10


There is no disobedience to God for all are doing what He wants them to do...clay pots and all right MarkV?
---micha9344 on 12/4/10


micha9344, That's a great point. Now my question is, if this is a fact MarkV states, why then after he is saved must he beg for mercy BEGGING God to forgive him of all his rebellion against God.

Or Why is MarkV allowed to beg, and not anyone else.
---kathr4453 on 12/6/10


...In fact, the civilizations started appearing amazingly just after the Worldwide Flood approximately 2700bc....
---micha9344 on 12/2/10

I love your wording above....
Amazing isn't it. How all of a sudden the Phonecians, Chinese, Assyrians, Egyptians etc,etc just took a thousand year leap in one year into written languages, physical changeovers etc.
Yeah, cemetary's (seminary's) teach the wolves but, sheep seekers find/learn their error.
---Trav on 12/6/10


Go back and read the story again, Christan. God FIRST tells Moses that He is sure pharoah will not let them go. God already knows pharoah is rebellious (Exodus 3:19). THEN He later tells Moses He will hardens pharoahs heart. Why? It gave God the opportunity to show the children of Israel just how mighty their God was. It strengthens their faith.

And Romans 9 says God raised pharoah UP so that He could show his power in him. Even Jesus said that men have no power except what is given them from God.

Pharoah's heart chose his way, God directed his steps.

To turn it the other way around would be a direct contradiction of James 1:13 and would make God the author of evil.
---JackB on 12/6/10


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//Funny that you dare... //

//Hello, anyone home? //

A familiar pattern.
---JackB on 12/6/10


//Why ask if anyone is home MarkV?
God directed him to post that, so your arguement is not with JackB but with God.
JackB and I are but puppets doing God's will.
If you have a problem with our posts, in your view, you must take it up with God, for we are not responsible for the actions God makes us do.
---micha9344 on 12/6/10//

PERFECT, Micha!
---JackB on 12/6/10


"Pharoah is a perfect example of man that chose his way and the Lord knew he would never repent." - JackB

Funny that you dare use Romans 9 to squeeze your love for free-will in the man when God said to Pharaoh in verse 17, "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

Pharaoh was created for one purpose by God, "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" Romans 9:22

In all these, God is sovereign and man will be held accountable.
---christan on 12/6/10


2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1Ki 13:26 And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the LORD: therefore the LORD hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake unto him.

Neh 9:26,27 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets ... Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies ...
---jerry6593 on 12/6/10


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Why ask if anyone is home MarkV?
God directed him to post that, so your arguement is not with JackB but with God.
JackB and I are but puppets doing God's will.
If you have a problem with our posts, in your view, you must take it up with God, for we are not responsible for the actions God makes us do.
---micha9344 on 12/6/10


Hello, anyone home?

"//"A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directed his steps"//---MarkV"
Why is it hard for you to understand?
For the very reason of that passage we know our lives are neither the product of blind fate nor the result of capricious chance, but every detail of them was ordained from all eternity, and is now ordered by the living and reigning God. For not a hair of our heads can be touched without His permission.
"For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen" Rom. 11:36. There is no boasting in Salvation, from beginning to end, it is all of God.
---Mark_V. on 12/5/10


//"A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directed his steps"//---MarkV


I honestly dont see how you can post such a verse and yet STILL believe in predestination to salvation or damnation.

A man's HEART diveseth his WAY...(whether or not he repents), whichever way he chooses God directs his steps. He uses us in whatever path we chose. Whether it to a vessel for honor or for dishonor. Pharoah is a perfect example of man that chose his way and the Lord knew he would never repent. So He used him to show his power by doing things He knew would harden his heart even further.

Try applying that verse to pharoah and youll see a different God in Romans 9 than what you teach.
---JackB on 12/5/10


Just how human free will fits in with God's sovereignty and eternal "now" is a mystery we will never fully understand this side of heaven, if even then.
---Cluny on 12/5/10


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Macha, I posted that question to see what others have to say. I already knew what you had to say, the reason I posted it. you gave me the idea. Oh, let me tell you, God knew I would post it and that you would say what you said. "For I know the things that come into your mind, everyone of them" Ezek. 11:5. That is the God of Scripture,
"Nothing escapes His eyes. Nither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: But all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" Heb. 4:13.
But listen to God's Word,
"A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directed his steps" Prov. 16:9. I copied it down, the Word of the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 12/5/10


I have 5 words for this question as an answer: 40 years in the wilderness.
---Pharisee on 12/5/10


God's word says "If my people who are by my name will humble themselves and pray, they will hear from heaven and I will heal their land." I don't know if that is exact words but I know God will change his mind if we pray and seek his face.
---shira3877 on 12/5/10


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