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JWs Believe Savior Is An Angel

Is it true that JWs believe their savior is an angel IE Michael?

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Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

I think this verse says that jesus does not hold a conversation, or debate with Satan about Moses, but rather he just rebukes him.
---Francis on 12/9/10


Just a few of the 'wolves' that have connected Michael the Archangel with Christ- (1)

Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Melito, Novatian, Hermas, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Theodret, Justin Martyr, John Calvin, Adam Clarke (Methodist), Matthew Henry, the Geneva Study Bible, Browns Dictionary of the Bible, A Cyclopedia Of Biblical Literature, An Exposition Of The Bible, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, The Godbey Commentary on the NT...

Continued.
---scott on 12/9/10


'Wolves' connecting Michael with Christ- (2)

Continued

Ernst Wilheim Henstenberg's 'Christology of the Old Testament and Commentary on Messianic Predictions', 'The Formation of Christian Dogma' by Martin Werner, D. D., Professor of Systematic Theology, 'The Bible Doctrine of God, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit', The Council of Chalcedon, 'International Bible Dictionary Illustrated', Langes 'Commentary On The Holy Scriptures', The Encyclopedia's Britannica and Americana.

Calling all of these individuals 'wolves' is ridiculous...but as one theological sage once wrote:

"I have no problem with those who call me names. It only shows thay have no good point to make." Warwick 12/6/10
---scott on 12/9/10


The Jehovah witness' theology is completely wrong!! But haveing observed them around the world I have great admiration for their tenacity!!!!
---mima on 12/9/10


"He would be born of a virgin. according to the Fathers will, and made Him known, being Christ, as God strong and to be worshipped"Justin Martyr: Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 1, pg 237
"Himself the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things which have been formed, the only-begotten of the Father, Christ who was announced, and the Word of God"Irenaeus: Vol 1, pg 443
"God the Word"Clement of Alexandria: Vol 2 pg 215
{And, in the next place, since he considers that he makes a concession in saying of the Saviour, "Let him appear to be really an angel," we reply that we do not accept of such a concession from Celsus}Origen: Vol 4, pg 566
---micha9344 on 12/9/10




Point-Geneology-Through linerage The Word of God-Immanu el' Is titled and define as "King of King and "Lord of Lord"
Gen 3:15Rev 19:16 qualitative difference between 'a' prince.
Linerage:Mary-tribe of Judah and Levites-Soloman and Nathan.
Point-Rock
1Cor 10:4 Christ-"Rock"that Followed-BEHIND Israelites.ICor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink,for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:and that Rock was Christ.(Ex23:20-21,32:34,33:2
Only One defined-Rock-Deut 32:3-4,15-18
vs18 You were unmindful of the Rock that begot you, you forgot the God who gave you birth

In the wilderness Michael 'angel' "went a head"
But the "Rock" Followed Behind-ICor 10:4
---char on 12/9/10


For example Jude 9:1 does not call Jesus an archangel. ///Read it and see it actually shows Jesus is not an angel, as it says the Archangel Michael did not not dare rebuke Satan. In contrast Jesus is recorded rebuking Satan on a number of occasions e.g. Matthew 4:10, 16:23, Mark 8:33.///---Warwick on 12/9/10

Amen--agreed.

Michael can voice the Word of God and did not dare to bring a judgment against the Devil, but said "May Yehovah rebuke you"
but the Word of Yehovah(Immanuel-Y'sha-Christ) in Authority rebuked the devil.
Not at all the same.
---char on 12/9/10


We follow the Word of God-
It is the Word of God-bread of life-manna from Heaven that gives Eternal life.

again in the wilderness-
Christ the "Rock" that not only Followed "Behind" the Isralites with living Water-Christ was the "mann" that gave them life.

Follow the Word of God from beginning to End-the path that leads and end with-Yehovah.
Aleph to Tav-Alpha omega.
---char on 12/9/10


Not only does the Word of God put the devil in His place by Authority-the Name of the Word of God is that Authority.The whole reason satan can not have one understand and believe the Authority in the name of Jesus Christ.We asked the Father in the name of Jesus Christ-knowing the Authority is in the name-who is Emmanuel.His is not "like" God, He is 'God with us"
John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I WILL DO IT.
John 16:23 23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, HE WILL GIVE YOU

*I will do it
*He will give you
-Unity of One'ashtey' ehhad, yahhiyd
How is it done?
As a unit of One-Spirit.
Holy Spirit.
---char on 12/9/10


1Thess 4:16-Rev 19:16,1716-And he hath on[His]vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.And I saw an angel standing in the sun,and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,Come an gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God,
---this reveals that WHILE the "King of Kings' is DESENDING,John says " I saw an angel STANDING in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice...
1. an angel is standing
2While Jesus-the "King of Kings' is descending.
Vs13 tells us...
And he[was]clothed with a vesture dipped in blood,His name is called "The Word of God.
Matt 1:1-26,Jn 1:1-14
Emmanu el'-God with us
Y shua-God is Saviour
---char on 12/9/10




We must remember many 'wolves' toil to lead us away from faith in Christ.

The idea that our Lord Jesus Christ is one and the same as Michael the angel is but one lie they use.

God is no angel, but Creator of angels and all else. Jesus is that Creator God, therefore cannot be (for numerous reasons) the angel Michael.

Don't be fooled by well contrived deception.

For example Jude 9:1 does not call Jesus an archangel. Read it and see it actually shows Jesus is not an angel, as it says the Archangel Michael did not not dare rebuke Satan. In contrast Jesus is recorded rebuking Satan on a number of occasions e.g. Matthew 4:10, 16:23, Mark 8:33.

Neither does 1 Thessalonians 4:16 say Jesus is Michael.
---Warwick on 12/9/10


AKA yes, clearly HIS in John 5 is the VOICE of Jesus.
John 5:25 the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:

1 thes 4 the voice that raises the dead is the voice of the archangel.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

remember the lord hiself is shouting, and the voice is that of the archangel.

I would go as far to say that this voice is not the voice of JESUS of Nazareth, but the voice of the angel who called to moses from Sinai.

Acts 7:38 the angel which spake to him( MOSES) in the mount Sina,
Exo 20:18the thunderings, the lightnings, the noise of the trumpet, the mountain smoking:
---francis on 12/9/10


No Scott,

What question could there be?

To my understanding there is only one answer for Mankind-that is the Word of God-Christ.
There is only one path the leads to Yehovah---that is Y'sha(Christ).
When we follow God's Word the path leads back to the mouth it came out of-Yehovah.

This is defined by the Word of God down to each letter.
Following any other word-one misses the "mark".

Without question-The name Emmanuel it is not the name Michael.
Two completely different paths- Two completely different "marks".
Defined by the Word of God down to each letter.
---char on 12/9/10


I have to admit, this blog is far more informative than the endless Sabbath debates. Now, we are getting to the true beliefs.

Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
---aka on 12/8/10


Yes, francis, i agree. So, for the text that you used, let's find the referent of "his".

John 5:26-28 For as the Father has life in himself, so has he given to the Son to have life in himself, And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

There is no mention or reference to Michael here. Jesus was talking of himself in the third person.



Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that bear witness about me (Jesus) ,
Joh 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
---aka on 12/8/10


AKA used alone. Any text can be problematic. But used line upon line, here a little.
Whose voice shall raise the dead
John 5:28 for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear HIS VOICE,
John 5:29 And shall come forth,

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall MICHEAL stand up, the great prince
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
---francis on 12/8/10


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char,

Did you have a question? If so, please clarify.
---scott on 12/8/10


i see now how 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is being used with thoughtful convolutions of other Scripture to say Michael is Christ.

For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Every king is announced by His right hand men not himself. In Luke, Jesus, (when He was but a baby King), was announced by an unnamed angel as in Thessalonians. (consistent witness to His new King and His arrival as the established King).

when Jesus was arriving in Jerusalem Luk 19:38 ...Michael was never referred to as a King.

Luk 2:11 ... Michael was never born, thus not in the line of David as prophesied in the OT.Isa 9:6
---aka on 12/8/10


"JW say there is only one true God..." Harold

In prayer to his heavenly father Jesus said:

"And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God,
and
him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ." John 17:3 ASV

Emphasis mine.
---scott on 12/8/10


Scott,
My statement in return is to addressing your belief.
It is clearer---Now.
It has brought to light the reason behind the past replies to Is 9:6 and many others.
My concern is-again as stated,
Yehovahs court is not as the World-our mediator is His Word-it appears this is not addressed-only the study of "Scholars-Mans" wisdom understanding to it-(seed of tradition).

Again-thank you for your reply-I do believe you love Yehovah-my concern is the witness for which at this point according to the understanding of the Word of God (bearwitness to Him-down to each letter)
There is no agreement to this subject at this time.
---char on 12/8/10


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JW say there is only one true God, In John 1:1 they Jesus is A god, this would be two gods of righteousness which they deny. The don't know their own book.
Angels are created beings, if only one created being lived a perfect life then all created beings should. this would make him a condemer of man instead of saviour. All created beings would be held to his standard.
---Harold on 12/8/10


JW's are considered a cult, Their doctrines and teachings are incorrect and are leading many people astray. When you hear other people saying things about other denominations, it pays to listen and foind out why they are saying these things. When you learn the truth, you need to run away from these denominations, quickly as possible. The bible also tells us to know he truth and the truth shall make us free. Anything contrary from what the bible teaches is---from the devil.
---Robyn on 12/8/10


Michael - Jesus comparison.

1. Term archangel applied to both: (Jude 9, 1 Thess 4:16)

2. Great distress when becoming king (Dan 12:1, Matt 24:21)

3. Resurrection occurs during their time (Dan 12:2, John 5:28,29)

4. Voice people hear would be Jesus' (John 5:28,29)

5. Voice people would hear would be an archangels' (1 Thess 4:16)

6. Judgment occurs during this time (Dan 12:2, John 5:28)

7. Knowledge/insight occurs during this time (Dan 12:3, Matt 13:43)

Both:

8. Have authority over angels (Rev 12:7, 2 Thess 1:7)

9. Are prophesied to defeat Satan (Rev 12:7, Gen 3:15)

10. Lead the heavenly armies (Rev 12:7, 19:11-21)

11. Stand up as kings (Dan 12:1, Dan 7:14)
---scott on 12/8/10


ARCH means CHIEF of, or leader of, or first One

ANGEL means messenger

Michael means Who is God? or who is like God?

ARCH ANGEL is the bible is NEVER plural which means there is only ONE.

Michael the Archangel. The chief messenger who is God.
---francis on 12/8/10


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It is these statement that bring to light more understanding to the warning.

"Traditions of Men".

Mans' wisdon does not compare to the wisdom of Yehovah nor does it stand up against the Actual Word of God.
---char on 12/8/10


Pharisee, Char, Warwick, etc.

My research and comments on this topic have not focused on the deity of Christ or his relationship with others including his heavenly father, angels or men.

Though I can see the obvious dilemma the apparent Christ/Michael connection presents for some I have, in reality, only responded to the 1st few comments on this thread that suggested that JWs and SDAs were unique in this view.

The overwhelming evidence proves otherwise.
---scott on 12/8/10


Michael / Christ?

"A Child is born to us, and a Son is given to us...and His name is called the Angel of mighty counsel, [Megalais boulais angelos] for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to Him." Isaiah 9:6 - LXX (Greek Septuagint)

"Isaiah calls Him the Angel of Mighty Council" Justin Martyr: Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 1, pg 236

"Messenger (aggelos - angel) of great council." Irenaeus: Vol 1, pg 441

"And His name has been called the Angel of great Counsel." Clement of Alexandria: Vol 2 pg 21

"Angel of great council." Origen: Vol 4, pg 566
---scott on 12/8/10


Scott in all your 'cut and paste' activity you willingly ignore that God's word says the Lord Jesus is The God (ho Theos), The Creator, The Redeemer, The Alpha and The Omega. Michael is never addressed by these titles.
---Warwick on 12/7/10
You missed Three
HE ANGEL OF THE LORD/ GOD, PRINCE< and LEADER OF THE HOST OF GOD
Titles held in common by Michael and Jesus.
---francis on 12/8/10


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Isaiah 9:6 - LXX- 'Megalais boulais angelos"

"Behold, unto us a Child is born, and to us a Son is given, upon whose shoulder shall be government, and His name shall be called the Messenger of mighty thought." Cyprian: ANF Vol 5, pg 524

"the Angel of great council." Novation: ANF Vol 5, pgs 628, 629, 632, 639

"Unto us a Child is born...and his name is called Angel of great counsel, wonderful..." Theodret: NPNF Vol 3, pg 332 (Codex A reading)

"Angel of great council." Athanasius: NPNF Vol 4, pg 400, 428

"Angel of great counsel." Septuagint Codex Aleph, A
---scott on 12/8/10


I heard of this before. I have heard that the Jehovah Witnesses have changed the scripture of John 1:1 to conform to their belief that Jesus is not "The" God, but they added the indefinite article "a" to the verse to read "...the Word was 'A' god", a god who is lesser than "The" God. This polytheism is common among false religions and cults whom do not accept the holy trinity, nor the full deity of Christ, nor that Jesus is The Almighty God whom is the Creator of all.
---Eloy on 12/8/10


Scott,
Again-
Yehovahs court has one mediator-The Word of God -Emmanuel-God with us.
The World's court which is corrupted debates with past cases.Laid before us the debates of men (tradition) that make void the Word of God.
At Christ return-Will he be called Michael?
We do have a choice-
Who do we follow-tradition of men or The Word of God.
The only way to the Father is through the son.

Luke 13:23-27 27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are, depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.


again-You have not clarified.
Lamed---The word-twisted-
The enemies tactic-very concering-indeed.
Praise God for His mercy and Grace.
It is His Word we stand on.
And when the winds come...
---char on 12/8/10


Scott in all your 'cut and paste' activity you willingly ignore that God's word says the Lord Jesus is The God (ho Theos), The Creator, The Redeemer, The Alpha and The Omega. Michael is never addressed by these titles.

Further in Zechariah 10:12 Jehovah God says "they will look upon me the one they pierced, and they will mourn." Revelation 1:7 speaking of Jesus says "look he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him." We know Jesus was pierced, but Zechariah says Jehovah God also was. Who is coming in the clouds? The Lord Jesus, therefore on all accounts they are one and the same person. No Michael here!
---Warwick on 12/7/10


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Whose voice shall raise the dead
John 5:28 for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear HIS VOICE,
John 5:29 And shall come forth,

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall MICHEAL stand up, the great prince
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Some passages say it is the voice of the arch angel michael who will raise the dead, other passages say it is the voice of the Son of God.

Both are correct.
---francis on 12/7/10


'To which of the angels did God ever say "You are my Son"' ?
Hebrews 1:5. Jesus is called The Son of God but no angel can. Therefore Jesus and the angel Michael cannot be one and the same.

Hebrews 2:5 tells us that no angel can rule the world but The Son is appointed to rule the world-Luke 1:32, Revelation 19:16.

"Michael, one of the chief princes came to help me..." Daniel 10:13. Being one of many princes means Michael is not unique. In contrast in John 3:16 Jesus is called 'monogenes' Greek- one of a kind.' Unique.

Obviously the unique Lord Jesus and Michael (one of many princes) cannot be one and the same.
---Warwick on 12/7/10


Michael, you are correct, Jesus commands and the angel Michael obeys.
---Warwick on 12/8/10


Why don't people get it...Jesus cannot be an angel if he's credited with the work of creation and clearly he is according to the apostles.
Angels are created beings, a part of the creation, not God, not God's redeemer, not his Son, they cannot be anything but what they have been created to be, ministering spirits. You can intellectualize this all you like, but the Lord Jesus is man/God, and no part angel.
---Pharisee on 12/8/10


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francis 1/2

**Micheal and Jesus share the same post in Gods Army: LEADER/ CAPTIAN**

Lieutenant is the leader of a squad, captain...a company, major...a battalion, general...a division. All leaders...different posts.

Dan 10:13 ...but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me...

**Miclael and Jesus ALONE KNOW THE END TIME PROPHECY**

As a rule of engagement, it is not wise to let everybody know the plan from the start for strategic and tactile reasons.
---aka on 12/8/10


LOOK: Micheal and Jesus share the same post in Gods Army: LEADER/ CAPTIAN

Joshua 5:14 captain of the host of the LORD

Revelation 12:7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,

LOOK HOW BOTH Miclael and Jesus ALONE KNOW THE END TIME PROPHECY

Daniel 10-12and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

no doubt Michael is one of the names given to the preincarnate Jesus
---francis on 12/7/10


Mat 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Christ is in command, Michael is following orders.
---micha9344 on 12/7/10


Jesus / Michael? (1)

"In a number of passages we read of an angel who is superior to the six angels of God's inner council, and who is regularly described as "most venerable", "holy", and "glorious". This angel is given the name of Michael, and the conclusion is difficult to escape that Hermas saw in him the Son of God and equated him with the archangel Michael...

...Both for example, are invested with supreme power over the people of God, both pronounce judgment on the faithful, and both hand sinners over to the angel of repentance to reform them..."

Early Christian Doctrines, by JND Kelly, pp 94, 95

Continued
---scott on 12/7/10


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Jesus / Michael? (2)

Continued...

"...The evidence to be collected from the Apostolic Fathers is meagre, and tantalizingly inconclusive. There is evidence also, as we observed in the preceding paragraph, of attempts to interpret Christ as a sort of supreme angel, here the influence of Jewish angelology is discernible."

Early Christian Doctrines, by JND Kelly, pp 94, 95


"But you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself."

The apostle Paul - Gal. 4:14 NASB
---scott on 12/7/10


"Who is like Yahweh our God" which is "miy khamokha yahweh eloheynu".
"eyl" literally meaning one of power or authority but commonly translated as "God". When put together these mean "Who is like God?"

-same question is asked in Psalm 113:5.
Who is like Yahweh our God, the one who dwells on high?
"Who is like Yahweh our God" which is "miy khamokha yahweh eloheynu".

These Words became flesh-not Michael---
the Word became flesh-Emmanuel-God with us.

Michael and Yehovah are not "One".

God spoke-God Moves-confirms.
Word and Spirit.

---char on 12/7/10


It's funny Michael never delivers nor raises the dead, ---Micha9344 on 12/7/10
John 5:28 for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear HIS voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth,

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall MICHEAL stand up, the great prince
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Why both MIUCHAEL and JESUS rasing the dead?
---francis on 12/7/10


Scott,
from this point forward-instead of using debates and arguments of men(tradition)
//J. Calvin, COMMENTARIES,CBL, William L. Alexander,//etc...---

(this only side tracks from the actual Word of God and puts attention to men)--

This is what the world does in court-(past cases). The true court is Yehovahs' the mediator for man is His Word-(He swore by)-Is 45:23

It does appears your belief puts Michael in the place of Yeshua.
However-we are told-Emmanuel means "God with us" and ---the Word of God became flesh who is Jesus Christ(Emmanuel).

Michael means-"who is like God"-instead of "God with us"

Please use the Word of God to bearwitness
Please clarify.
---char on 12/7/10


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"Arians may, [believe that "the angel of the LORD," is actually Jesus] but real Christians don't." Cluny

Actually...

The New Encyclopedia Brittanica States:

"Here Arius joined an older tradition of Christology which had already played a role in Rome in the early 2nd century-namely, the so-called angel-christology...he is...identified with the angel prince Michael. In old angel-christology the concern is already expressed to preserve the oneness of God, the inviolable distinguishing mark of the Jewish and Christian faiths over against all paganism." Macropaedia, Volume 16, p. 282.

Pre-dates Arius.
---scott on 12/7/10


"NOT what the Wesleys said about themselves." Cluny

I fail to see your point.

The fact remains that Wesley was of the opinion that Christ and Michael were one and the same.

"Michael - Christ alone is the protector of his church, when all the princes of the earth desert of oppose it." John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible.

And he was not alone:

"I embrace the opinion of those who refer this [Michael] to the person of
Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing
forward for the defense of his elect people."
J. Calvin, COMMENTARIES ON...DANIEL, trans. T. Myers, 1979, vol. 2 p. 369.
---scott on 12/7/10


Ruben,

The divinity of Christ is a fascinating and important topic but this particular thread addresses whether Jehovah's Witnesses (and I guess SDA) are alone in viewing Michael and Jesus as one and the same.

So far it appears that the historical evidence suggests otherwise.

'A Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature' states:

"There seems good reason for regarding Michael as the Messiah. Such was the opinion of the best among the ancient Jews. With this all the Bible representations of Michael agree. He appears as the Great Prince who standeth for Israel (Dan. xii. 1), and he is called the Prince of Israel (Dan. x. 21)".

CBL, William L. Alexander, edited by John Kitto, Vol. 3, 1886, page 158.
---scott on 12/7/10


Michael - Jesus Christ?

Adam Clarke (Methodist) in his multi-volume commentary - not his one volume abridged edition by Ralph Earle, regarding the occurrence of Michael in Revelation 12:7-10: "By the personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."
New York and Nashville, Abingdon Press, Vol. 6, page 952.

Langes Commentary On The Holy Scriptures (on Revelation 12:7-10): "the warlike form of Christ."

Matthew Henry (in his unabridged and concise commentaries, on Revelation 12:9): "2. The parties - Michael and his angels on one side, and the dragon and his angels on the other: Christ, the great Angel of the covenant..."
---scott on 12/7/10


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worth repeating:
{{I can not comment on the belief of another.
However.. "To which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"? Hbr 1:13
"To which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
"He says [of Jesus]: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hbr 1:5,6
Jesus said "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve." Luk 4:8}}-josef on 12/7/10
---micha9344 on 12/7/10


Jesus is God and was not created. Yet the bible refers to Jesus as THE ANGEL OF GOD/ THE LORD.

Angel does not mean created being, it means messenger.
Now is there a greater messemger than Jesus?
---francis on 12/7/10


This is an interesting discussion going on here and demonstrates what was happening particularly before 325 and the rest of the Ecumenical Councils.

In general, in Alexandria the thinking was that Christ was more "divine" than He was human. Then at Antioch area the thinking was that Christ was more human than divine. How to articulate exactly who Christ was/is, is what divided Christianity then and now.

As someone else mentioned, we could list all the things we should do to Christ, worship, follow, respect as God, and then ask, do we do that for Christ however He is defined.
---Rod4Him on 12/7/10


It's funny Michael never delivers nor raises the dead, but is present receiving commands from the Word of God as to the angelic host.
And we all know who the Word is, some personally.
Dan 10:13 says 'one of the chief princes', there is none equal to Christ.
Christ will rule all of the princes for every knee will bow, some now, most later.
---Micha9344 on 12/7/10


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I am more influenced by what God's word says of Jesus " The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things have been created through him and for him."

Jesus is therefore not created, but the Creator God-obviously not an angel.

Jesus alone in the whole of Scripture is called The God, (ho Theos) the Alpha and the Omega, the Saviour, and the Creator. All names/titles shared by Jesus and Jehovah God.

Only those with a nonBiblical wheelbarrow to push, promote otherwise.
---Warwick on 12/6/10


Whose voice shall raise the dead?

John 5:28 for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear HIS voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth,

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the LORD HIMSELF shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall MICHEAL stand up, the great prince
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Everything the bible says Micheal will do, is ALWAYS done by Jesus.
Every position held by Hicheal is also held by Jesus. Example Captain of the Lords Army/ prince.
---francis on 12/6/10


I can not comment on the belief of another.
However.. "To which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"? Hbr 1:13
"To which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
"He says [of Jesus]: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hbr 1:5,6
Jesus said "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve." Luk 4:8
---josef on 12/7/10


scott, the sources you are quoting are NOT what the Wesleys said about themselves.
---Cluny on 12/6/10


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"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

Is that statement true or false? No one in this discussion would venture to say it's untrue.
From that statement we have to surmise that the glory of God is his holiness or absence of sin -RIGHT?

"my glory will I not give to another" Isaiah 42:8

"I will not give my glory unto another" Isaiah 48:11

Jesus had to be sinless to be our sacrifice, has God's word now returned void or should we tear Isaiah from our Bibles for you?
---Pharisee on 12/6/10


Michael - and the early church fathers.

Clement of Alexandria
"and fear turned into love, and that mystic angel is born-Jesus." The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII (7), ANF, Vol. II, p. 224.

---scott on 12/6/10

Scott,

And in that same book he writes:

"He asked," it is said, "His name, and said to him, Tell me what is Try name." And he said, "Why is it that thou askest My name?" For He reserved the new name for the new people--the babe, and was as yet unnamed, the Lord God not having yet become man. Yet Jacob called the name of the place, "Face of God." "For I have seen," he says, "God face to face, and my life is preserved."
---Ruben on 12/6/10


francis, i agree with you on that.
---JIM on 12/6/10


Michael - and the early church fathers.

Clement of Alexandria
The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII (7), ANF, Vol. II, p. 224.

---scott on 12/6/10

More from the same book:
our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion, God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Fathers will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Fathers right hand, and with the form of God is God. (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 2)

The Lord ministers all good and all help, both as man and as God: as God, forgiving our sins, and as man, training us not to sin. (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 3)

Just saying:)
---Ruben on 12/6/10


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Cluny, I don't mind doing your homework for you.

According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia (Something that you are perhaps familiar with):

"Methodism- A religious movement which was originated in 1739 by John Wesley in the Anglican Church, and subsequently gave rise to numerous separate denominations."

And from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"John Wesley, (b. June 17, 1703, Epworth, Lincolnshire, Eng.d. March 2, 1791, London), Anglican clergyman, evangelist, and founder, with his brother Charles, of the Methodist movement in the Church of England."
---scott on 12/6/10


JWs do not believe Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Take heed of Christ's declaration:

Matthew 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." 32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

JW christ is a false christ and they blaspheme the Holy Spirit, period.
---christan on 12/6/10


Hippolytus
"And who is Michael but the angel assigned to the people? As (God) says to Moses. I will not go with you...but my angel shall go with you."
Scholia, On Daniel, Chapter VI, item, 13, from fragments, ANF, Vol. V[5], 1981, page 190.
---scott on 12/6/10

then finally earthly things (shall) end, and heavenly things begin, that the indissoluble and everlasting kingdom of the saints may be brought to view, and the heavenly King manifested to all, no longer in figure, like one seen in vision, or revealed in a pillar of cloud upon the top of a mountain, but amid the powers and armies of angels, as God incarnate and man, Son of God and Son of man coming from heaven as the world's Judge. (Scholia on Daniel 7:17)
---Ruben on 12/6/10


You can spend time studing the arguments of men-or you can spend time with God allowing Him to teach and confirm His Word.Cor 2(Holy Spirit-teacher),
1Jn 2:26-29 These have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which[ye]have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
Matt1:20-25
His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, "God with us".
Yeshua-'God is Saviour"
Michael-"Who is like God?"
The Word already tells us-The Holy Spirit teaches-truth.
Is 43:11
I,[even] I, [am] the LORD, and beside me [there is] no saviour.
44:6..."I Am the first, and {I Am]the last,beside Me[there is] no God.
Praise God for His mercy and Grace.
---char on 12/6/10


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Thomas was convinced that it was not Yeshua (God is Savior-Emmanuel-God with us) that had risen from the dead.-IF-in fact this was true and He was Michael--instead and not Emmanuel-God with us-Yeshua,God is Saviour, would have agreed with Thomas and confess he in-fact was Michael. This would have been another word(message) ---instead. However-the Word of God bears witness of God Himself-no other.
Jn20:25-31
Jn 18:37
If you don't believe Yeshua rose from the dead-there would be no power in the name of Jesus-Eph 1:1-23.
Jn 14:14
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do[it].
The enemies plan-state otherwise---instead.
---char on 12/6/10


\\"The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ,\\

Consider the source, Scott.

**You mean you guys do not believe that "the angel of the LORD," or "the angel of God," is actually Jesus? what some call the pre incarnate christ?
---francis on 12/6/10**

Arians may, but real Christians don't, francis.
---Cluny on 12/6/10


Michael (1)

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

"The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the child and the archangel in Rev 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Dnl." John A. Lees, Vol. 3, 1930, page 2048.

An Exposition Of The Bible: (By some 27 scholars)

"It is even itself probable that the Leader of the hosts of light (Rev. 12:7-9) will be no other than the Captain of our salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself...the prophecies of Daniel, in which the name Michael first occurs, may be said to decide the point."
Vol. 6, 1910, page 882.
---scott on 12/6/10


Wrong, Scott.

John Wesley did not found the Methodist Church.

He and his brother Charles went to their graves loyal priests of the Church of England, and he was very distressed when Methodists, both in the UK and US broke away from Anglicanism.
---Cluny on 12/6/10


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You mean you guys do not believe that "the angel of the LORD," or "the angel of God," is actually Jesus? what some call the pre incarnate christ?
---francis on 12/6/10


Michael (2)

John Wesley
(Founder of Methodist Church)

"...when Michael your prince, the Messiah shall appear for your salvation..." "Michael - Christ alone is the protector of his church, when all the princes of the earth desert of oppose it." John Wesleys Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible.

Geneva Study Bible:

"Da 12:1 - And at that time shall Michael {a} stand up, the great prince ...God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ...Even though God could by one angel destroy all the world, yet to assure his children of his love he sends forth double power, even Michael, that is, Christ Jesus the head of angels."
---scott on 12/6/10


I have also seen this in United Pentecostal litter-ature (spelling pun intended)

Please note: United Pentecostal is not to be confused other Pentecostal groups like Assemblies of God or Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada etc.

The United Pentecostal are non trinitarian and teach that you must be baptized in water according to their specific methodology and you must speak in tongues to be saved.
---Bruce5656 on 12/6/10


Michael - and the early church fathers.

Clement of Alexandria
"Formerly the older people [the Israelites] had an old covenant, and the law disciplined the people with fear, and the Word was an angel, but the fresh and new people [the Christians] has also been given a new covenant, and the Word has appeared, and fear turned into love, and that mystic angel is born-Jesus." The Instructor, Book I, chapter VII (7), ANF, Vol. II, p. 224.

Hippolytus
"And who is Michael but the angel assigned to the people? As (God) says to Moses. I will not go with you...but my angel shall go with you."
Scholia, On Daniel, Chapter VI, item, 13, from fragments, ANF, Vol. V[5], 1981, page 190.
---scott on 12/6/10


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Yes.

You could also find this Christian Mythology in Seventh Day Adventist's literature, thanks to old Ellen G White and her delusions.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/6/10


Yes.

I've seen this in SDA literature, too.
---Cluny on 12/5/10


Yes it is true, we have some on this site who'd like to believe the same, but that's not what the Apostles believed about him, nor is it what Jesus taught of himself, in John 5 Jesus openly claimed that he would be the final judge of all that have ever lived. Also he said he could call down angels to deliver him from his cross. To whom do angels take their orders? God. In Hebrews it says he's higher then the angels and that "the angels of God should worship him."

"JESUS IS LORD OF ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER."
---Pharisee on 12/5/10


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