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Is Church History Important

How important is knowing Church History(1500's) to your walk with Christ. Did God's Word actually Change in the 1500? Or did God's unchangeable Word deliver many out of false teachings in the 1500's.

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 ---kathr4453 on 12/7/10
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aka--I think it was a blogger who called you ignorant, not God.
And I think he said you were ignorant about Calvinism, which is easily remedied.
---Donna66 on 12/11/10


kath4453-- My "who" question was not serious, it was rhetorical. "Who will be hurt if immoral people are required to behave morally?"

Please cite an example of either Markv or christian calling the gospel "filth".
(I suspect they were referring to something YOU said, not the Gospel).

I'll not "rebuke" anyone unless you apologize for calling Calvinists "wicked" and telling them to repent.
---Donna66 on 12/11/10


What I'm finding interesting about leej is this, He recommends to me 2 months ago Grace by Chafer, then I bring to his attention Chafer is not Calvin,, THEN now only two months later he says, no I don't agree.

He holds up the Westminster Confession, I say LeeJ, that's legalism, ...then leej backs away stating..Well, I don't really agree with all of that either.

leej, when you get it all toghether, then you have earned the right to speak. But now in you wishy washy state of mind, you are no good to anyone here!YOU BLOW WITH THE WIND! you are the author of confusion.

But I guess God molded you into that..to being Him Glory???!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/11/10


Roger Williams become a Puritan at Cambridge, forfeiting any chance at a place of preferment in the Anglican church. After graduating from Cambridge, Williams became the chaplain to a Puritan lord, Sir William Macham. Williams was privy to the plans of the Puritan leaders to migrate to the New World, and while he did not join the first wave in the summer of 1630, before the end of the year, he decided he could not remain in England under Archbishop William Laud's rigorous (and High church) administration. He regarded the Church of England to be corrupt and false, and by the time he and his wife boarded the Lyon in early December, he had arrived at the Separatist position.
---Laura on 12/11/10


\\Roger Williams broke from the Puritans Theocratic utopia. He became a separatist.\\

Actually, Roger Williams WAS a Separatist, but was run out of New England for becoming a Baptist.

Yet, he eventually left the Baptists, too, and became a "seeker", as he called himself: always seeking but never finding.
---Cluny on 12/10/10




//Some people will respond to the Gospel, some won't.//

yes, according to Calvin, the ones who respond are already chosen.

in another blog, i was deemed ignorant by a Calvinist. Then, suggested that I become knowledgeable in the ways of Calvin.

My question: How can I if I were predetermined ignorant by God?
---aka on 12/11/10


leej, I will word another way.

What exactly can we learn from GENEVA when Calvinism was the controlling power? Did it work, or did it end in blood shed?

Donna66, then YOU take a stand and rebuke leej, markv and christan for calling the Gospel I place on line here FILTH. When you do that Donna66, well, just let me know when you do. If you don't donna66, how serious is your question WHO???

And Leej, thanks for recommending Chafer...he OPPOSES Calvinism TOTALLY! I think the word he uses is VEHEMENTLY. aka: SHOWING INTENSE OPPOSITION

I guess i'm in good company! Again leej, THANKS !
That just made my day!
---kathr4453 on 12/11/10


//EXACTLY what are the goals and ambitions of a country of unsaved brought under the Moral LAW of Moses?

You had better re-word what you are trying to say as it is doubtful anyone knows what you are trying to say.

The only country I know of that was under the law of Moses was Israel, a theocracy. Howbeit, they were always in a state of rebellion largely because of the influence from foreign religions. All too often Jehovah was just one of the many gods they worshiped.
---leej on 12/10/10


kathr4453---How many times do you have to hear that Calvinists DO preach the Gospel to the lost!?You just go ahead and make your own assumptions, never listening, just twisting what other people say so that it suits YOU!

Thus your question is largely irrevelant. Some people will respond to the Gospel, some won't. If the immoral are compelled to follow a morality they don't believe in, is this somehow bad? And for whom?
---Donna66 on 12/10/10


Donna66, let me ask you a question. Since reformed? Calvinism./ Puritan etc do not preach the Gospel to the lost, but rather are guilty of the same as those Paul accused, seeing I am teaching FILTH of whoso ever will here as was Paul:
Thessalonians 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.


My Question is to Donna66, Anonymous, leej, etc, EXACTLY what are the goals and ambitions of a country of unsaved brought under the Moral LAW of Moses? Will it save anyone, or just SUBDUE THEM for your comfort and enjoyment?

I see a total conflict here of Gospels and the outcome!
---kathr4453 on 12/10/10




//nothing wrong with supporting the government. In fact we are commanded to do so. Rom 13:1-4//

the forefathers of the US... Did they have the right to revolt against their government, biblically speaking? Taxation without representation was a common practice of the British government.

Did the Jewish Germans around the mid 40s have a right to try to escape persecution? Their government at the time really thought they were eradicating evil.

There are different parts to the Bible that some argue are added. Either we have to think this true, or we really need to dig deeper before we use these verses for application.

When the public profession of Jesus Christ is illegal and punishable by death, how is Rom 13 applied?
---aka on 12/10/10


aka --- Roger Williams left the Puritans because he realized that the church should not control the state any more than that the state should control the church.
The first amendment to the Constitution describes the illegality of state sponsored religion. Roger Williams was a champion of "freedom of religion", saying people should be free to worship as they choose, not as some religion or sect demands.
Both of these are cherished
American (apologies to Kath4453), foundational beliefs.
---Donna66 on 12/10/10


Kathr ... You speak as is leaven is bad.

But see Matthew 13.33 ... "The Kingdom of Heaven is like leaven"

That is Jesus talking!!
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/9/10


Yes, donna66, Roger Williams broke from the Puritans Theocratic utopia. He became a separatist.

In Mass it was illegal to even have a Christmas tree. The Puritans were run out of England really because they couldn't RUN the Church of England, thereby running the country their way.

Many leave the Baptist church too, but that doesn't mean the Baptist church will collapse, or abandon their beliefs. If anything it just brings in more splinter groups.

The Old Rugged Cross is not painted Red white and Blue
---kathr4453 on 12/9/10


Kathr4453--- Churches in China would not even be allowed to have a "Christian" flag.
Why would they want an American flag, since they are not Americans?? Should we want a Chinese flag in our churches?

There are Christians in almost every nation in the world. What is your point?
---Donna66 on 12/9/10


Anonymous-- I can relate to your desire to deal with the moral decline of America and prevent collapse of the nation. Many Christians of various denominations want that.

But are you, as Puritans, advocating an overthrow the American government?

Kat4453 thinks you are. And if you are "Cavinists" she will tell you how wicked you are!
---Donna66 on 12/9/10


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There is nothing wrong with supporting the government. In fact we are commanded to do so.

Romans 13:1-4 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
---leej on 12/9/10


\\Historians can't provide the life-saving truth that only God's inspired word can provide. But they certainly help to explain why 1st century Christians might not recognize the 'Christianity' of today.
---scott on 12/8/10


Scott, Jesus himself wouldn't recognize Christianity today. Nor would Paul or John or James or Peter.\\

They would recognize Orthodoxy.

||None of them carried flags either. IKONS began where?||

With the images of the Cherubim that God commanded to be made for the Tabernacle and Temple.
---Cluny on 12/9/10


Kath4453---The design and colors of the American flag were inspired by the English Union Jack.

Australia's flag is also based on the flag of the U.K.,
The Liberian flag is an obvious tribute to the U.S. flag. The state flag of Texas is also (probably) inspired by the U.S. flag.

Beware the English and the Australians! Defend against Liberians and Texans!
---Donna66 on 12/9/10


kathr4453--- meet Anonymous!
Anonymous--- meet Kathr4453

Kath4453 believes Puritans and Calvinists are "wicked"

Anonymous is passionate about "Puritan" reforms of the nation (if you really are, anon, please don't back out now)

I've tried to speak for the majority between the two extremes. But I'm due for a rest.
Carry on!
---Donna66 on 12/9/10


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Anonymous, don't you mean through wars? Wars ans world trade?

That may be your manifest destiny, but not mine. As a son, rather daughter of God, my destiny is in Heaven...not here.

Your manifest destiny gives a whole new meaning to democracy. Have you changed the true definition of democracy....or just using that to promote your own?

It's self-righteousness.
---kathr4453 on 12/10/10


like some of the blog questions here are confused because of the titles, so is the concept of the separation of church and state because of the title of separation of church and state.

it is not a concept that says that we have to run our government in a secular fashion without thoughts of morality and God.

the separation is simply that government does not control the church like what was done in Europe where the state runs the church.

How can you have a christian nation without christian politicians who make their decisions based on Christ (Jesus Christ)?
---aka on 12/10/10


Word of God delivers.
Church History makes an interesting study-however-(for some cases)every named,debate and Theologian along with the tradition that's stemed out etc...etc..is studied and the Word-voided.In return people our placed under a catergory and judge as such.What I have viewed are arguements that ones religion, doctrine.belief etc...is the true church and the church history is claimed proof for that belief as the one and only right church and then in turn judge others if they disagree.
God has given us the End from the beginning-He for told us all things.
To my understanding we are not promised tomorrow-timeframe short-The Word of God is the bread of life-is efficient and offers a better taste.

Good question Kathr.
---char on 12/10/10


donna66, So I guess you haven't heard:

A little leaven ruins the whole lump!

We are told to beware of the Leaven of the Pharisees!

Oh, do underground churches in China also have the china Flag and the christian flag too.

Or do they have the American Flag, Chinese flag and christian flag?



---kathr4453 on 12/9/10


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Since the Christian Flag was inspired by the flag of the United States, it takes its colors and overall design from the American flag.

So, I guess I found the answer to that.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/10


Historians can't provide the life-saving truth that only God's inspired word can provide. But they certainly help to explain why 1st century Christians might not recognize the 'Christianity' of today.
---scott on 12/8/10


Scott, Jesus himself wouldn't recognize Christianity today. Nor would Paul or John or James or Peter.

None of them carried flags either. IKONS began where?
---kathr4453 on 12/9/10


Puritans are here in America today and our work is far from over. We are still marching on. We have reforms in mind. We are fully determined to deal with the moral decline in America.

We want to prevent the collapse of our nation we founded. We have many new programs to push through.

Our agenda has always been to establish a "nation under God". This will ensure our continuing prosperity and power itself so we can bless the world at large. We are in fact establishing an American world dominion through world trade.This is the true essence of the "manifest destiny" of the sons of God.
---Anonymous on 12/9/10


kath4453-- Have you studied the history of the Puritans AFTER the colonial period?

Roger Williams was a Puritan that (in 1636) fell out of favor with the Mass. Bay colony (the first of many to do so) and founded Providence RI. Williams was one of the first Puritans to advocate separation of church and state. Other states, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, New Hampshire followed suit all advocating freedom of religion, NOT Christian theocracy.Some modern Presbyterian denominations are descended, from the Puritans. So are Congregational Churches (now the United Church of Christ). In the early 19th century a few of these old congregations adopted Unitarianism.
---Donna66 on 12/9/10


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Thanks Ignatius, //...The only councils that has been received within Orthodoxy (as a whole) are the first Seven Holy Ecumenical Synods...//

I was sure that was true, but Cluny made statements, //Actually, there were MORE than seven councils called during this period...the only ones that were recognized as true were those the emperor left alone//and //I have repeatedly said that there were more than seven councils summoned by imperial authority during this time.// and //that the only councils the Orthodox Church receives are the seven in which the emperor did not interfere.//

Emperors were involved in all those councils.

I am learning this period of history, and Cluny made what the Orthodox believe confusing.
---Rod4Him on 12/9/10


Kathr4453---What about the flags on the platform of Falwell's church? A lot of churches have an American flag and the "Christian flag". This proves...what?

That they want to "take over" the government?

Most know little about the Puritans or the Pilgrims. They call this country a "Christian nation", because, well...doesn't the Declaration of Independence say... all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights... They want more Christians (of any kind) in government, believing that it would make the country more "moral", with more freedom for Christians. Simple as that.

Not sharing your doctrine
doesn't mean they have evil intentions.
---Donna66 on 12/8/10


Sure Of Your Salvation blog was closed...props on this.

The mixture of a Theocratic Government along with the philosophy of Freemasonry,( Building AKA Babylon, really Mystery Babylon..((the Tower of Babbel)) is the driving force behind Dominionism.

This too is the driving force behind anti-christ.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10
---aka on 12/8/10


Donna66 if you should ever watch Jerry Falwells church on tv...check out the flags behind the pulpet!
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


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donna66, The Light and Glory, Peter Marshall is still being promoted hot and heavy,

Sponsors today are \:
Tim laHay
Bill Bright, Campus Crusade
Jerry Falwells church and school ..VERY popular..and the whole of the Moral Majority is on this premise. No they haven't died out.
donna66, this is where and what catherine gets her haaaaaaheeee comments.

Maybe not in Colorado, but down here in the southeast Bible Belt, yep. It's big. The American flag is replacing the cross. They can't seem to separate the two.

This is the cause and split in the So. Baptist church, Calvin has a huge stronghold

And don't forget Bob Jones University BIG CALVINISTS who are talking about taking over America for Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


\\donna66, there are many who have read the Book, The Light and the Glory,by Petr MArshall, very popular even in Baptist Churches where Kennedy still preaches his Gospel of America\\

Do you mean D. James Kennedy?

I'd be curious to know just HOW he is preaching anything, because he's been DEAD since 2007.
---Cluny on 12/8/10


\\But if you, like some, replace God's Word with History\\

Nope. I first and foremost recommend the Geneva Bible as though they were no history books.

The Bible first. History second.

Again, interest in the Bible and Church history is a good thing.
---Kev on 12/8/10


Kath4453--- I missed your reference to The Light and the Glory,by Peter MArshall. NOT exactly "very popular even in Baptist Churches" I haven't heard it mentioned since sometimes in the 1980's.
You must realize how many different churches consider themselves BAPTIST. According to Wikipedia (admittedly, not the best authority) In 2002, there were over 100 million Baptists and Baptistic group members worldwide and over 33 million in North America. Their beliefs and practices differ, but none that I know of include the 5 point TULIPS in their doctrinal statement. The Wikipedia is hardly scholarly, but it does speak of the history of Baptists, and NEVER mentions Calvin.
---Donna66 on 12/8/10


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"if you replace God's Word with History ..."kathr4453

I agree, but if you think that the theological views and opinions that people have today developed in a vacuum without some sort of contributing influence, I would strongly disagree.

If you were to actually compare 1st century Christianity with Christendom today, in terms of beliefs as well as practices and church structure, you would find a breathtaking dissimilarity.

What has caused this? Only history provides that answer.

Historians can't provide the life-saving truth that only God's inspired word can provide. But they certainly help to explain why 1st century Christians might not recognize the 'Christianity' of today.
---scott on 12/8/10


kath4453-- Expert on Calvinism that you are, can you please tell me what book, other than the Bible, Baptists, Presbyterians and Reformed churches ask their
people to read and follow?
---Donna66 on 12/8/10


Kathr says, God treats everyone the same, and that Calvinist have a select few, the Elect. God say's she is wrong, that He does have an Elect. That He doesn't treat everyone the same.

1 Cor. 10:1-12 tells us that twenty-three thousand fell in the desert. Two passages are referred, Ex. 32, and Numbers 21:6. The reason I put these passages is because 23,000 died for this reason,
"Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come"
God ordained that those people die for an example and written for us. God did not make them sin, and be idolaters and murderers, but He knew they would. He let them sin to fulfill what He ordained for us.
---Mark_V. on 12/8/10


I think you are not been fed kathr because you are not in God's word, which shows why you are always wrong in your answers. you don't know the Bible, and you don't know what Calvin's teachings are, since you have not explained one thing or answered one passage given to you from others. I think you are calling yourself wicked.
---Bob on 12/8/10


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kev, I LOVE History. So all history is really important, even History that led up to the Reformation.

But if you, like some, replace God's Word with History and put your faith in the wisdom of men rather than the Power of God LIKE we are asked to do, is actually dis-obedience.

What men in the council of this or that discussed bears no power over my faith coming PURELY and unadulterated out of God's Word.

When anyone tells you you must read this or that to understand christianity, that is a Cult.

Mormons do it, JW's do it, RCC do it and Calvinists do it.

The Bible need no suppliments. If your not getting FED, it's because your not in God's Word.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


Is Church history important?

Yes. And it is not a sign that you're "unsaved" if you have interest in the Church history. I've been told otherwise unfortunately.

In fact, if one has a great interest in the Bible and Church history, I take that as a sign that they may be saved.

Fare well
---Kev on 12/8/10


American fundamentalist Christians are pretty responsible people. They often show a willingness to assume the burden of responsibility for the spiritual condition of America. They also show a readiness to accept the political power that might come along with that responsibility should it be forthcoming. Here is a quote from a famous televangelist. He fits the pattern of the modern 21st century Puritan leader very well.
"We have enough votes to run this country...
and when the people say, 'We've had enough,'
we're going to take over!" -- Pat Robertson, in a speech
to the "Washington for Jesus" rally in the spring of 1980.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


Actually, there are many protestant Christians who don't recognize the name, James Kennedy, either...and there are many more who do not agree with him.
---Donna66 on 12/8/10

donna66, there are many who have read the Book, The Light and the Glory,by Petr MArshall, very popular even in Baptist Churches where Kennedy still preaches his Gospel of America
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


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\\Cluny, do you have any clarification about the Orthodox not recognizing the Seven Ecumenical Council as authoritative?\\

I have repeatedly said that there were more than seven councils summoned by imperial authority during this time.

I have ALSO said that the only councils the Orthodox Church receives are the seven in which the emperor did not interfere.
---Cluny on 12/8/10


Rod4him,

In the first 1,000 years of Church History, there were many councils held in various locations. However, not all of them taught the Apostolic Faith and not all of them were recognized by the Church as God-Inspired. The only councils that has been received within Orthodoxy (as a whole) are the first Seven Holy Ecumenical Synods, held between the 4th century to the 8th century. It is in these Synods that the Orthodox recognized of having blinding authority and which proclaimed the Apostolic Faith uncorrupted. These are the Seven Pillars of Orthodoxy.

However, I must note that some Orthodox do consider two extra later councils as having Ecumenical authority, although it is not a issue in Orthodoxy.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/8/10


Kathr4453 -- The average American Christian not only hasn't considered Calvin a "Pope", most have never even heard of Calvin. (even those who have fallen for the lies of the "Prosperity Movement.) Most Christians blame government for our recent recession, not God (tho some seem to feel it's God's judgment on our land.)

James Kennedy has his followers, but they are not the majority of Protestantism.

Actually, there are many protestant Christians who don't recognize the name, James Kennedy, either...and there are many more who do not agree with him.
---Donna66 on 12/8/10


There's nothing wrong with studying church history. As for falsehood, this began when Satan was thrown out of heaven early in the morning in the year 4175 B.C. when Adam was only 19 years old.
---Eloy on 12/8/10


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Cluny, do you have any clarification about the Orthodox not recognizing the Seven Ecumenical Council as authoritative?

Yes, I know I misspelled Orthodox in my previous post.
---Rod4Him on 12/8/10


//the Gospel of America is based on Calvinism. what is the Gospel of America? It's the Gospel of Prosperity for obedience.

One can only be delusional to try and associate Calvinism with the prosperity gospel.

Perhaps what you are denouncing is known as materialism, not Calvinism or the prosperity gospel.

While Calvinism advocates the work ethic, the prosperity gospel simply preaches we acquire health and wealth by obedience to God.

In any case, it is obvious you are not even familiar with what constitutes Calvinism.

Suggest you make you for that deficiency by reading a few good books on the subject.

One good one is Chosen but Free by Norm Geisler, another the Potter's field by James White.
---leej on 12/8/10


leej, the Gospel of America is based on Calvinism.

Now you ask what is the Gospel of America. It's the Gospel of Prosperity for obedience.

Now that America is not prospering anymore, who is to blame? Seems James Kennedy says you all are. That if we don't fight for OUR Christian Rights and maintain a Theocratic Government that supposedly was set up by the Puritans to begin with ( based totally on America begin God's NEW Chosen People and America God's NEW promise Land...

But wait, can Christians in China have the same prosperity America has? No, They get KILLED for being Christian...America is too good for that!
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


//But the only ones that were recognized as true were those the emperor left alone.//

"The Orthodox Church recognizes as authoritative the decisions of the seven ecumenical councils that met between 325 AD and 787 AD and defined the basic doctrines on the Trinity and the Incarnation."

The above quote came from what looked to me like an "Eastern Othodox" website.

Are you saying that the Othodox don't recognize those councils?
---Rod4Him on 12/8/10


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But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty,

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


Sorry Leej, you disqalified yourself!
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


Here is a prophecy concerning church history:

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them, and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
---francis on 12/8/10


Kathryn - you still should answer my question

-Please tell me where in Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (or in his commentaries) you find the view that Calvin was a prosperity teacher.

Otherwise all we can conclude is that you hate Calvin so much that you want to attach all kinds of derogatory labels to him.

Shame on you! You need to humble yourself under the truth and get right with God.
---leej on 12/8/10


//REPENT of your evil Lee Jensen...Humble yourself Lee Jensen. and turn from YOUR wicked ways Lee Jensen, so God can heal our land!

Golly sakes, you are leaving me wondering if you will become like Francis and call me an agent of Satan.

Is my sin revealing the truth of Scripture to those who are still in their infancy as to understanding?
---leej on 12/7/10


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\\It is important, in the sense that there are some prophecies accociated with church history.\\

After explaining about Orthodox Church history, an SDA said in astonishment, "If what you're saying is true, what does this do to the Adventist interpretation of Bible prophecy?"

I replied, "You're the one who said this, not I. What I said can be verified in secular encyclopedias."
---Cluny on 12/7/10


Pharisee //God's word hasn't changed even when it was ripped from the hands of the devil who would corrupt it for his own justification.

Some of the modern versions will have the footnote "Some manuscripts brother without cause" which indicates to us that we should use a modern version that is based on Greek compilations that are much older and reliable.

My first preference is the English Standard Version Study Bible as it has many annotations.

Also a good history of Bible translations may bring these anomalies out. It is doubtful that Rome (often the scapegoat) really had anything to do with these kinds of things.
---leej on 12/7/10


Lee Jensen of Phoenix AZ,

Anyone who uses OT scripture given to earthly Israel alone , attached to the Land God gave Israel alone is in the Prosperity movement and that my friend is where they get their promises. Those promises and blessings are NOT to the Church. and never will be. They are not to Calvinists or Dr. James Kennedy's Reformed group concerning America either.

But if you want them, YOU are the evil ones who need to repent so God can heal our land.

REPENT of your evil Lee Jensen...Humble yourself Lee Jensen. and turn from YOUR wicked ways Lee Jensen, so God can heal our land!

But now that I think about it, since yo all stole Israel's Identity, maybe that IS why America is cursed!
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10


kathyrn Adams //Calvinism was the First prosperity teacher.

Please tell me where in Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (or in his commentaries) you find the view that Calvin was a prosperity teacher.

You really should borrow a book on what Calvin truly taught and then you may be better enabled to comment on his teachings.
---leej on 12/7/10


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LeeJ the KJV is exactly what I was talking about, and the Greek manuscript that was produced that made the KJV was dedicated to Pope Leo the tenth, the same Pope who condemned the reformation.

The point I was making is that after a period of thousands of years textual comparisons show an astonishing 7% difference...stating the obvious, God's word hasn't changed even when it was ripped from the hands of the devil who would corrupt it for his own justification.
---Pharisee on 12/7/10


It is important to know church history, only because we can see through it that people have changed God's Word to what they want, and NOT what God intended. Most if not all of modern-day Christianity was started by Constantine, who wanted to worship God only if he could take ALL the Jewishness out of Christianity, and worship his own Pagan gods along with God. So most if not all modern-day Christianity is full of Idolitry, Paganism, and Anti-Semitism - NOT what God ever intended or NOT lined up with the Bible.
---Leslie on 12/7/10


He was first to forge a systematic theology of the Christain faith and life that still profoundly influences modern Western society. (p. 194 History of Christian Thought, by Jonathan Hill)

Those who study his works, will definitely benefit.
---leej on 12/7/10


Benefit how leeJ, will it lead to more Blessings in Heavenly places IN Christ?

More Riches in Christ?

OR benefit those who will follow anti-christ one day?
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10


It is important, in the sense that there are some prophecies accociated with church history.

But to follow what man has done in the chiurch historically can be dangerious
---francis on 12/7/10


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\\For example, one learns that all seven of the ecumenical councils were called by an emperor or his wife.\\

Actually, there were MORE than seven councils called during this period.

But the only ones that were recognized as true were those the emperor left alone.

The only significance of "ecumenical" in this period was that the members of the council came from the entire empire or OIKOUMENE, and not just from a given area.
---Cluny on 12/7/10


Pharisee - Let me see if I can guess who changed Matthew 5:22 by inserting 'without a cause.'

It cannot be from the Nestles Greek compilation nor the Westcott - Hort as the Revised standard version has -

Mt. 5: 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment, whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, You fool! shall be liable to the hell of fire.

And the Roman Church Vulgate (new Translation of the Latin Vulgate, as well as the Challoner Douay Reheims versions) does not have the clause.

So I guess that leaves only the New Kings James version.

It is probably a good idea to also study the history of Bible translations.
---leej on 12/7/10


//The RCC took over as head of the Church, and the reformers, not all, made the same mistake, making Calvin a Protestant Pope.

An accusation that totally ignores church history.

There were many Reformers at the time of Calvin who had differing views on different subjects.

Luther for one, disagreed with Calvin on the Eucharist, Zwingli had even another view.

As viewed by church historians and theologians, Calvin was possibly the most important Protestant of all time.

He was first to forge a systematic theology of the Christain faith and life that still profoundly influences modern Western society. (p. 194 History of Christian Thought, by Jonathan Hill)

Those who study his works, will definitely benefit.
---leej on 12/7/10


Yes, it is important. While the West went into Heresies, the East (Orthodoxy) remain steadfast to the Truth.

What most of us (Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental, and Protestant) believe concerning Christ (Christology/Incarnatioal dogmas) and the Holy Spirit is thanks to God-Bearing Fathers such as Saint Athanasius, Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Saint Leo the Great, and host of other Fathers during the first several Holy Ecumenical Synods that guarded Orthodoxy and delivered the correct interpretation of Scriptures. In fact, without the Holy Spirit guiding them, we will not have Scriptures.

We need to know where we came from and why we are in the place we are now (whether you Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental, or Protestant).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/7/10


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OK OK LEEJ, yes it is important to know this so as to avoid to completely!

Protestantism is also POLITICAL .
Calvinism was the First prosperity teacher. He in fact is the God-father of the Prosperity movement. Believing themselves to Be the New Israel with all of Israels earthly blessings. OUR blessings are not her but Heaven!
Calvinist concept and his perception of material success as a sign of divine election,
Materialism is the underlying Protestant emphasis on earthly prosperity,
And Egalitarian ideas all are traceable to Protestantism,
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10


The word Never changed. In the 1500's the only manuscript available were copies of copies from a 7th century byzantine type text. When a cache of Alexandrian type 2nd century manuscripts were uncovered in the 18th century the texts were compared line by line and were found to have 93% percent overall agreement. God's word was changed a tad here and there over the centuries but if you study closely the discrepancies it's easy to see who monkeyed with it and why, it matches their church's false doctrines. The words "without a cause" in Matthew 5:22 are a glowing example.
---Pharisee on 12/7/10


Church history is a fantastic subject.

For example, one learns that all seven of the ecumenical councils were called by an emperor or his wife. That should tell someone the basis of what we know of Christianity and how it came to be what it is.

Another example, the chuch in the east focused on theosis, and the church in the west focused on forgiveness of sins, which is still true today. Interesting stuff.
---Rod4Him on 12/7/10


BTW--Church history did not start in the 1500's, though Protestantism may have.
---Cluny on 12/7/10


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leej, you say church history is important so history does not repeat itself. however history DID repeat itself. The RCC took over as head of the Church, and the reformers, not all, made the same mistake, making Calvin a Protestant Pope.

The Only head of the Church is Christ. and the ONLY History we need is OT History.

Christians in Muslum countries have their own Church history and instead of the RCC being the point of contention, Islam is.

So, they are not protestant either in it's true definition.
---kathr4453 on 12/7/10


Church history from all periods is important but this is the period of the Protestant Reformation may people and groups remained Christian Protestant. Some developed Heresies and were forever expelled from Christian Protestantism. It is important to know which are which pick the wrong group and you will never be in God's family. If you church practices Believers' only Baptism that is heresy, it was heresy in the 1500s and will be forever.
---Blogger9211 on 12/7/10


Cluny //The Eastern Churches never were, but have always preached the pure and unadulterated Word of God.

Closer to the truth than what happened in the Western Church. Perhaps one reason is that the Patriarch's powers were more checked by secular authorities and they had other issues to deal with such as the spread of Islam.

When Constantine moved the captial to the East, the only power left in the West was the Pope, fewer checks & balances.
---leej on 12/7/10


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