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Jesus Shed Blood Once

"The Bible teaches the blood of animals had to be shed over and over whereas the blood of Jesus had to be shed only one time. The Catholic religion does not understand this and contends that the blood is shed over and over again in the mass." Who is right and why?

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 ---mima on 12/7/10
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RICHARD, You quoted the Verse that said that YAHUSHUA (CHRIST JESUS) was "slain from the foundation of the World" to indicate that THAT meant that YAHUSHUA shed His Blood twice, that He, in effect, sacrificed Himself twice. But, HEBREWS 10:12-14 says "But this Man (YAHUSHUA/JESUS), after He had offered ONE SACRIFICE for sins forever, sat down on the Right Hand of GOD,...For by ONE OFFERING He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." Also read ROMANS 6:10, HEBREWS 7:27, 9:12,28, 10:10 and I PETER 3:18. The Son of GOD sacrificed Himself ONCE, one time for all times. NOT TWICE.
---Gordon on 12/18/10


Richard, Jesus was not slain twice. slain from the foundation of the world simply means God knew His Son would die for our sins. God knew from the foundation of the world. He even knew about you. how many times does Jesus have to die for our sins. ONCE.
---shira3877 on 12/15/10


Ignatius, **Are you smarter than a 5th grader?**
Probably not ,It's been too many years since I was in grade 5! I don't pretend to be smart, just curious!
If you hadn't noticed I question people's beliefs and why.
There are 7 billion people on this planet and 1/2 of them are below average!
---1st_cliff on 12/14/10


Blood of Jesus had to be shed only one time?

REVELATION 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD


( With this verse it seem Christ actually shed his blood twice - Once at the cross in 33ad and once at the beginning of time - If someone has scripture that says that it happen just once, Please post it.)
---RICHARD on 12/14/10


"Cluny, I came up through the public school system where they never taught that religious jargon!" (1st Cliff)

Of course they don't. In fact, they don't teach ANY religious jargon. However, you will be taught sacramentology in any Catholic school, and will understand it quickly.

It is very simply and easy to understand.

Are you smarter than a 5th grader 1st Cliff?

In Ic.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/14/10




\\Cluny, I came up through the public school system where they never taught that religious jargon!
---1st_cliff on 12/13/10\\

Same here.
---Cluny on 12/14/10


Cluny, I came up through the public school system where they never taught that religious jargon!
---1st_cliff on 12/13/10


\\Cluny, It's the accident not meaning an accident that's beyond my education level, maybe not PhD. but at least BA! I never made it that far!
---1st_cliff on 12/11/10\\

The distinction between "substance" and "accidents" is taught to Catholic school children.

If they can get it, why can't you?
---Cluny on 12/12/10


Ignatius, We cannot paint everyone with a wide brush.Some things are real some are not .
I think it was Abe Lincoln who said "You can fool some people all the time and all the people some time but not all the people all the time"
The onus is upon us to sort out the real from the imagined!
Satan never sleeps and he fools the "gullable".
Can you tell if satan has altered scripture?
---1st_cliff on 12/12/10


The blood was shed ONCE for ALL the Bible says. Who is right, God through the Bible or man through false doctrine? You tell me.
---Leslie on 12/11/10




1st Cliff-

Strangely thing. Once I spoke to a Atheist, and he said the same thing ("imagination is a wonderful thing") when I spoke to him about God, that Christ rose from the dead, etc. For the non-believers, our Christian dogmas are just wishful thinking. Do you believe Holy Scriptures, or is that part of the "imagination" too?

No one here is forcing you to accept the Traditional and Orthodox Eucharistic Theology. Is your choice if you wish to believe Christ, the Holy Apostles, their Successors, and the God-Bearing Fathers. For those who are following in their footsteps (which most here do not do), we simply accept the Eucharist for what it is (the Body and Blood of Christ). End of Story.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/11/10


Cluny, It's the accident not meaning an accident that's beyond my education level, maybe not PhD. but at least BA! I never made it that far!
---1st_cliff on 12/11/10


\\Cluny, Thanks for clearing that up.**no physical change takes place** Transubstantiation does not happen except in the mind of the participant (imagination) like I've said many times "imagination is a wonderful thing"!
---1st_cliff on 12/10/10\\

By the very definition of the term "substance" or "essence" in this context, transubstantiation can NOT be a physical change.

Did you think it did mean "physical change"?
---Cluny on 12/11/10


Iohn Wyclif really was right in teaching the following, Christ once offered. Iohn Wyclif and the Lollardes preached strongly against the Roman Catholic mass. They also translated the Bible out of the Latin Vulgate into English. The pope was so infuriated with Iohn Wyclif that he ordered his bones dug up, and scattered into the river.

Iohn Wyclif, the Lollardes, and the Waldenses were true preachers. Unfortunately, the pope did persecute them very severely.

The pope has been cruel to the East (as for example, histories do declare that the pope waged war against the Greek Church & c.) and the West (good Christian men like the Waldenses martyred).

The pope's punishment is not far off.
---Kev on 12/11/10


Cluny, Thanks for clearing that up.**no physical change takes place** Transubstantiation does not happen except in the mind of the participant (imagination) like I've said many times "imagination is a wonderful thing"!
---1st_cliff on 12/10/10


\\Cluny, You're talking over my head here, I don't have a PhD.\\

You don't think this is PhD level stuff, do you?
---Cluny on 12/10/10


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\\We have the wafers (bread)on a plate,and the wine in the glass...at which precise point does this transubstantiation,metamorphose, take place? In their receptacles, on the tongue or after ingestion?\\

It doesn't happen in Protestant churches, as they are broken off from the historical Apostolic Church.


\\but the emblems don't actually under go a physical change!\\

No one ever said it was a PHYSICAL change but you.
---Cluny on 12/10/10


Cluny, You're talking over my head here, I don't have a PhD.
We have the wafers (bread)on a plate,and the wine in the glass...at which precise point does this transubstantiation,metamorphose, take place? In their receptacles, on the tongue or after ingestion?
Or is this just a situation where your mind tells you something has taken place?but the emblems don't actually under go a physical change!They are still bread and wine!
---1st_cliff on 12/10/10


There's a certain on-line encyclopedia which shall be nameless here.

If you look up

accidents (philosophy)

on it you will find out what I'm talking about.

\\"Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
---Eloy on 12/10/10\\

I'm rubber, you're glue, etc.
---Cluny on 12/10/10


An evil satire of Calvinism! Enjoy!

By using proper exegesis( Calvins that is) of scripture it can be proven with certainty that Jesus died to effectually secure salvation for Paul of Tarsus. And for Paul alone.

First, lets take a look at Galatians 2:20. This is the most important verse in the Bible, because it explicitly states the extent of the atonement

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

This verse is key. It indisputably proves that Jesus loved and gave himself only for Paul.

How limited is that!
---kathr4453 on 12/10/10


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1stCliff, as I said "substance" and "accidents" have TECHNICAL philosophical meanings that most dictionaries will not give. (You will find similar terms in law, medicine, and even computerese that have different meanings from these contexts.)

For those who want to know, in Aristotelian metaphysic, the ACCIDENTS of something are what we perceive with our senses, which can be weighed, measured, and otherwise quantified.

The SUBSTANCE of something is what makes that thing what is is in itself.

To use a less loaded example, the SUBSTANCE of a book is not the same as the ACCIDENTS of the book.

Orthodoxy, btw, does not use these categories. I'm simply explaining them here.
---Cluny on 12/9/10


Cluny, it is manifested that your thinking is cloudy: "Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
---Eloy on 12/10/10


\\Cluny, until you get saved you will continue to believe and say whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 12/8/1\\

As St. Paul said, yet not I, but Christ Who lives in me.

If you think I'm not saved, Eloy, that means I'm in good spiritual shape.

Keep on blessing me. All you do is increase my heavenly treasure.
---Cluny on 12/9/10


Cluny, The body and blood of Christ is one "substance".the wine and bread are another "substance"
When one substance changes into another substance it's "transubstantiation (or metamorphosis)
To incorporate the word "accident" ,an exhaustive dictionary search comes up with "unforeseen or unpredictable event" does not seem to have any relevance here except maybe a little smoke and mirrors!
No wonder the "people on here just don't get it" it doesn't make sense!
Either some miraculous thing takes place or it doesn't!
---1st_cliff on 12/9/10


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Cluny, until you get saved you will continue to believe and say whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 12/8/10


\\My understanding of this is what they call "transubstantiation" that the wine and bread actually turns to blood and flesh at mass. The way I heard it!
---1st_cliff on 12/8/10\\

And you misunderstand it. It's been discussed here several times already, and most of the people here still don't get it.

"Transubstantiation" says that the SUBSTANCE of the bread and wine are changed into the SUBSTANCE of the Body (not merely flesh) and Blood of Christ, the ACCIDENTS (that is what can be perceived by the senses) remaining this same.

Keep in mind that "substance" and "accidents" have technical philosophical and theological meanings here.
---Cluny on 12/8/10


"we must be clear that Catholics as well as Lutherans affirm the unrepeatable character of the sacrifice of the cross. The Council of Trent, to be sure, affirmed this, but Lutheran doubts about the Catholic position were not resolved. Today, however, we find no reason for such doubt, and we recognize our agreement in the assertion that "What God did in the incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, he does not do again. The events are unique, they cannot be repeated, or extended or continued. Yet in this memorial we do not only recall past events: God makes them present through the Holy Spirit, thus making us participants in Christ (I Cor. 1:9)"

Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue
October 1, 1967
---Ignatius on 12/8/10


My understanding of this is what they call "transubstantiation" that the wine and bread actually turns to blood and flesh at mass. The way I heard it!
---1st_cliff on 12/8/10


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"the Catholic affirmation that the church "offers Christ" in the mass has...been....explained in terms which answer Lutheran fears that this detracts from the full sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice. The members of the body of Christ are united through Christ with God and with one another in such a way that they become participants in his worship, his self-offering, his sacrifice to the Father. Through this union between Christ and Christians, the eucharistic assembly "offers Christ" by consenting in the power of the Holy Spirit to be offered by him to the Father. Apart from Christ we have no gifts, no worship, no sacrifice of our own to offer to God."

Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue
October 1, 1967
---IGnatius on 12/8/10


"There is no other sacrifice except the one offered by Jesus on Calvary. That sacrifice cannot be repeated. The Mass, therefore, is not a repetition, it is a re-presentation of that sacrifice.

Because Christ was a unique human being, the sacrifice He offered on the cross once and for all is a unique act. He was a human being, so it was an act that took place in history and is therefore past. He is God, who is outside of time: past and future are always present to Him. This means that His death and resurrection are eternal acts that can be made present by the power of the Spirit"

Understanding the Mass Part I - A Unique Sacrifice Made Present by: Marcellino D'Ambrosio

In IC.XC.,
---IGNatius on 12/8/10


\\a catholic mass is not a Christian assembly so their beliefs may or may not correspond to the Christian way
---Eloy on 12/8/10\\

You think YOURS is a Christian assembly, Eloy?

**Christ died once for us**

The Roman Catholic Church has never said otherwise.

OTOH, the Bible DOES say that Christ gets crucified again when you sin, candice. Hebrews 6:6
---Cluny on 12/8/10


Christ died once for us.Not over & over. Sounds like church traditions are trying to push over Gods word no matter where this idea came from, if by the RCC or elsewhere.
---candice on 12/8/10


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I would prefer to see a proper quote with references that say Catholic believe and teach such things.

We need to stop accusing people without proper proof.
Many times we MISSUNDERSTAND or are intentionally misleading people as it conerns doctrine which we do not understand.

I think thi sis happening with this question.

This question is shameful.
---francis on 12/8/10


a catholic mass is not a Christian assembly so their beliefs may or may not correspond to the Christian way
---Eloy on 12/8/10


Why did you post such lie against our brethren in Christ?

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 12/7/10

Perhaps he did not. Maybe mima got the wrong group of people.

In studying the Lutheran Catechism I read a similar statement to what mima has posted, that the blood and flesh of Jesus is shed anew every time the eucharist is performed.

Any Lutherans out there to refute or confirm?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/8/10


\\Cluny, maybe it's not what the Catholic church says. But it is what it does.\\

Wrong again, as in everying you say about the Roman Catholic Church.

||And to prove that, your Jesus is still hanging on a cross.||

I have no idea what you mean by this remark. Do you?

As as I've frequently said, I'm ORTHODOX, and not Roman Catholic.
---Cluny on 12/8/10


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Well, whoever says this is wrong, as this is NOT what the Catholic Church acutually says, as can be found by looking it up in the CCC.

Why did you post something untrue, mima?
---Cluny on 12/7/10

Cluny, maybe it's not what the Catholic church says. But it is what it does.

And to prove that, your Jesus is still hanging on a cross. Ours Rose again.

Israel's day of atonement was once a year, you all do it several times a day.
---kathr4453 on 12/8/10


Mima,
They are right. The RC belief is in an "unblody" sacrifice. However, they do believe that the sacrifice "unblody" or not, must be repeated, well, repeatedly in order to be effective for us today. In the same way that the OT sacrifices had to be repeated over and over. This I believe, as I would think you do to, lowers the sacrifice of Christ to the level of that of bulls and goats. It seems that the author of Hebrews was trying to teach that the sacrifice of Christ was once and for all effective and not necessary to be repeated.

Hebrews 10:10, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
---Bruce5656 on 12/8/10


Mima,

Can you give a actual document from the Roman Catholic Church that they believe such? I was bought up in the Catholic school system, attended Mass, and have study Catholicism for 4+ years, and I was never told such a thing. The Mass is a re-presentation of Christ' sacrifice, not in a bloody, physical way, but in an unbloody, sacramental way. For example, read What Catholics Really Believe-Setting the Record Straight: 52 Answers to Common Misconceptions About the Catholic Faith by Karl Keathing. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (#1366-69)

So who is right? Your quotation (which most likely came from a Anti-Catholic source) or the RCC? Why not go to Catholic sources Mima?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/7/10


In the Decree of the Holy Office, 1918 (#490), and the The Council of Trent, twenty-second session on September, 17, 1562 (chapters 1-3 concerning the Eucharist) the Roman Church expressed her belief that Christ is NOT sacrifice over and over again in the Mass.

Mima, I suggest you study Catholicism by purchasing a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, The Church Teach: Documents of the Church in English Translation, United States Catholic Catechism for Adults, by becoming a member in Catholic forums, and by attending a nearby Catholic parish where you can talk to a Priest.

Why did you post such lie against our brethren in Christ?

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 12/7/10


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\\The Catholic religion does not understand this and contends that the blood is shed over and over again in the mass."\\

Well, whoever says this is wrong, as this is NOT what the Catholic Church acutually says, as can be found by looking it up in the CCC.

Why did you post something untrue, mima?
---Cluny on 12/7/10


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