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Did Apostles Celebrate Christmas

Did Christians celebrate Christmas in the days of apostle Paul?

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 ---mike on 12/8/10
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\\It's been reported that many of the bishops inserted an iota, making the word "homoiousious" before they signed the Creed.\\

Actually, the debate was precisely over "homoousios" (same essence) and "homoIousios" (similar but different essence), which was the teaching of the Arians.

Since only TWO bishops refused to sign the decree, I don't know where you got the idea that "many of the bishops inserted an iota".
---Cluny on 12/15/10


"Wolves". "Human opinion lead[ing] Christians away from the...scripture." Warwick (1)

So that I'm clear, all of these individuals and/or publications are 'wolves' and have 'lead Christians away from God's word?' That's a mighty swath of judgment that you have delivered...on some of the most respected theologians in history.

Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Hippolytus, Athanasius, Melito, Novatian, Hermas, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Theodret, Justin Martyr, John Calvin, Adam Clarke (Methodist), Matthew Henry, the Geneva Study Bible, Browns Dictionary of the Bible, A Cyclopedia Of Biblical Literature, An Exposition Of The Bible, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia...

Continued.
---scott on 12/15/10


"Wolves". "Human opinion lead[ing] Christians away from the...scripture." Warwick (2)

Continued

The Godbey Commentary on the NT, Ernst Wilheim Henstenberg's 'Christology of the Old Testament and Commentary on Messianic Predictions', 'The Formation of Christian Dogma' by Martin Werner, D. D., Professor of Systematic Theology, 'The Bible Doctrine of God, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit', The Council of Chalcedon, 'International Bible Dictionary Illustrated', Langes 'Commentary On The Holy Scriptures', The Encyclopedia's Britannica and Americana.

You've judged some of the most highly respected theologians and church 'fathers'...perhaps a little prematurely since you've never read their comments.
---scott on 12/15/10


"To become enamoured with human opinion, no matter whose they be, leads Christians away from the sufficiency of Scripture." Warwick

Warwick meet Cluny, Cluny meet Warwick.

It was 'human opinion' (Nicea 325) that introduced the word Homoousios into the discussion about the relationship between Father and Son. An unscriptural word first attributed to Gnostics.*

Were these bishops 'wolves' because they 'opined', moving away from the 'sufficiency of scripture?' Or is this 'departure' acceptable because it fits with your theology?

Can't have it both ways.

* "It is conceded...homoousios had the first phase of its theological history in Gnosticism..." Christ in Christian Tradition
---scott on 12/15/10


"The CHURCH gave it [homoousios] a particular meaning separate from the gnostics." Cluny

Ironically this statement seems to tie-in nicely with the topic of this thread...

...Borrowing from pagan cultures to form our christological viewpoint and customs. Leaving the clarity and simplicity of God's word far behind.

"When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD (Jehovah)" Ex 32:5 NIV

Attempting to make something detestable to God (a pagan festival) acceptable by dedicating it to the Almighty and even attaching his name to it...really?

As Dr. Phil would say...'How'd that work out for them?'
---scott on 12/15/10




micha9344, Mary would not quilt-strap baby Jesus in the heat of summer in June. According to the scripture Christ's birth is (69 weeks= 69 x 7 yrs)= 483 years from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25). The decree was made the 7th year of Artaxerxes' 40 year reign= 458 B.C. (Ezra 7:8,13,21-23,27). Jesus began to minister at 30 years of age (Luke 3:23). Now count forward 483 years from 458 B.C. = 26 A.D. (1 is added because there is no date "0"), now count back 30 years= 5 B.C. (1 added again because there is no "0"). Thus, Jesus' birthday is December 25, 5 B.C.]. Also Cyril, bishop of Jerusalem in the mid 4th century A.D., confirmed this date from the original chronicle records which were kept in Rome.
---Eloy on 12/15/10


michah9344 "Christ was born in June of 2 B.C. in which Venus and Jupiter aligned..."

You sound more like an astrologer rather than a Christian. And which part of the Scripture told you "Christ was born in June 2 B.C.? As Christians, we have been warned by God,

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:18,19
---christan on 12/15/10


Christians have zero care about what dates are on pagan calendars, for Christians do not observe pagan celebrations because Christians are godly and not pagan. Pagans have their santy caluses and reindeers and elves, but we have the proven real and almighty Lord Jesus Christ.
---Eloy on 12/15/10


\\Ahhhh yes, the hotly debated word that was used to describe the mysterious new relationship between the Father and Son...\\

Nothing new about this relationship, as it existed in eternity before time.

\\...a word found no where in the bible. In fact the Gnostics were the first theologians to use the word homoousios.
---scott on 12/14/10\\

Just like "Bible" is found nowhere in the Bible.

But the CHURCH gave it a particular meaning separate from the gnostics.
---Cluny on 12/15/10


Scott no one is aware of everything people have said about Christ, nor the context within which they made their comments.

To become enamoured with human opinion, no matter whose they be, leads Christians away from the sufficiency of Scripture. That is a tool you and others employ.

Building a view of God upon the shifting sand of human opinion doesn't work, in fact is mightly underwhelming, as Scripture alone is from God and it clearly says Jesus shares many titles with the Father- the Alpha and the Omega, the Saviour, the Creator, the one who was pierced. The one God.

Did any angel say "I and the Father one" John 10:30 And the Jews picked up stones because Jesus was making Himself equal with God.
---Warwick on 12/15/10




Constantine not only called the Council, but according to Eusebius, it was Constantine that suggested the word "homoousios." Sounds like the secular Emperor interferred by participating in the Council.
It's been reported that many of the bishops inserted an iota, making the word "homoiousious" before they signed the Creed.

Concerning Easter/Passover, Polycarp and Irenaeus went to Rome trying to persaude Anticus to celebrate on the Jewish passover. He agreed to disagree and let them do as they wanted.
---Rod4Him on 12/15/10


"What certain people say..." Warwick

It was you who asked "Are you claiming Clement of Alexandria, Origen, et al believed Jesus was Michael the Archangel...?"

I simply provided you with the answer, which is yes.

It is clear from your question that you were unaware of this. Though I doubt you will look further into this topic because of the challenge it presents to your theology...at the very least...now you know.

You're welcome.
---scott on 12/14/10


" H O M O O U S I O S "

Ahhhh yes, the hotly debated word that was used to describe the mysterious new relationship between the Father and Son...

...a word found no where in the bible. In fact the Gnostics were the first theologians to use the word homoousios.
---scott on 12/14/10


POST#2

Anti-Semitism was endemic in the "Church." The Council of Nicea was attended by 318 bishops, "NONE" of whom were of Jewish ancestry.

Passover was still celebrated by Christians, but the bishops decided to move the Christian celebration of Passover. Centuries later, the very name of Passover also became distasteful to the church, and terms such as Easter (the name of a pagan goddess) were adopted by the increasingly paganized church. Until this time, both Christian and Jew generally observed the seventh day Sabbath, according to the Biblical commandment.
Constantine, as emperor, presided over the entire council. The decisions of the 318 church bishops were enforced by civil law and military power.
---John on 12/14/10


Christ was born in June of 2 B.C. in which Venus and Jupiter aligned in such a way as to make it the brightest star ever seen. Nine months earlier, Jupiter, the King planet, circled Regulus, the King star, in the constellation of the Lion just before the rising Virgo, clothed in the Sun and the new Moon at her feet.
The wisemen followed Jupiter as it led them from Jerusalem and it stopped over Bethlehem on Dec 25, 2 B.C., where the wisemen gave gifts to the baby Jesus, now about 7 months old.
Gen 1:14b and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Psa 19:1-4
Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
---micha9344 on 12/14/10


John, that the Church is the New Israel has been taught since the days of the Apostles. There's nothing post-Constantinian in this.

And in your attempt to play guilt by association, you have not mentioned ONE THING that the Council of Nicea actually said and did.

Have you actually read the acts and canons thereof?

It's most important decision was to proclaim that Arius was wrong that the Son was of the same essence (HOMOOUSIOS/CONSUTSTANTIALIEM) as the Father.

Did you know this?
---Cluny on 12/14/10


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Scott what certain people say, or believe is interesting. However what God's word says is the only testimony we should take at face value. Nowhere in Scripture is the Lord Jesus shown to be Michael the Archangel. And conversely nowhere in Scripture is Michael shown to be the Lord Jesus Christ.

One is a created being and the other is the creator of all things created (Colossians 1:15-17). I will leave it to you to work out who is who!
---Warwick on 12/14/10


\\which is the most sacred day on the pagan calenda\\

I thought Samhain at the end of October was the most sacred day in the pagan calendar.

That's what is usually said in October on these blogs.

Make up your mind.

**Easter is the celebration of the goddess Ister. The goddess of the rising Sun. The Pagans would climb a mountain and have a sunrise worship as they watched her rise from the sea.

Sounds familar???**

Not at all. It's in NONE of the practices of the Pre-Reformation Churches, which celebrate PASCHA (as it's called in most European languages, or a phonetic variation).

Only in GERMANIC languages is it called anything similar to "Easter".
---Cluny on 12/14/10


Cluny, Rod4him,

Part#1

The Council of Nicea was convened in 325 CE (AD) by Constantine, Emperor of the Roman Empire. Constantine, a worshipper of the "sun-god," technically "converted" to Christianity. His reign marked the alliance of church and state. Christians were no longer persecuted by the pagans. Instead, Christians persecuted Jews with a zeal and a vengeance that would shock the pagans.

Constantine, only one year after convening the Council of Nicea, had his own son (Crispus) put to death. Later he suffocated his wife. Then he had his sister's son flogged to death and her husband strangled. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were massacred. The "Church" was seen as the new Israel.
---John on 12/14/10


Part#3
Nicea, with its theological anti-Judaism, laid the groundwork for anti-Semitic legislation of later church councils. The Council of Antioch (341 CE) prohibited Christians from celebrating Passover with the Jews. The Council of Laodicea in the same century forbade Christians from observing the Jewish (and biblical) Sabbath and from Jewish festivals.
---John on 12/14/10


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\\It happened during the Nicean Council who remove every Jew from the council and then removed The Holy Days of G-d at the same time.\\

Obviously, you've never read the actual acts or canons of the First Council of Nicea, John.
---Cluny on 12/14/10


//It happened during the Nicean Council who remove every Jew from the council and then removed The Holy Days of G-d at the same time.//

John, do you have references for this? Thanks
---Rod4Him on 12/14/10


Cluny- you are not celebrating an important event that has anything to do with Christ or anybody's salvation. What you are doing is keeping alive and perpetuating the pagan holy-day of December 25.

You can't pull the wool over my eyes Cluny. Your celebration has nothing to do with Christ, but everything to do with December 25, which is the most sacred day on the pagan calendar. 1st century Christians of Paul's day had nothing, zero to do with the Roman pagan December 25 'Saturnalia'. Christians were tortured and put to death by the pagan Roman Empire who celebrated the death of Christians on December 25.
---David8318 on 12/14/10


AG,

They celebrated all the Holy Days decreed by G-d.
What today has been dubbed "Jewish Holidays". And replaced by Pagan Holidays decreed by The Pagan Emperor Constantine.

It happened during the Nicean Council who remove every Jew from the council and then removed The Holy Days of G-d at the same time.

You can see how Jesus and His Apostles celebrated The Passover. NOT EASTER!

Easter is the celebration of the goddess Ister. The goddess of the rising Sun. The Pagans would climb a mountain and have a sunrise worship as they watched her rise from the sea.

Sounds familar???
---John on 12/13/10


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        Yes birthday celebrations are recorded in the Bible. And we are told to
rejoice and to give honor where honor is due. Ecclesiastes 3:1,4:

John the Baptist's birthday, July 19th, 5 B.C. - Luke 1:14,58.
Christ Jesus's birthday (Christmas) was the 2nd hour of night,
between 7 and 8 o'clock Mediterranean time,
on December 25th, 5 B.C.-
Matthew 2:10,11 + Luke 2:10,11.
---Eloy on 12/14/10


Haggai 2:15-19 is not a prophesy of Jesus' birth on December 25. Eloy reads Hag.2:18 as though the 'foundation of YHWH's temple' is laid on the '24th day of the 9th month'. This is not true. Ezra 3:1,10 says the foundation of the temple was laid during the '2nd month'.

Seeing the Jews apathy toward the temple after Ezra's days, Jehovah used Haggai 17yrs later to rouse the Jews to get the temple rebuilt. So when Haggai speaks at 2:18 of the foundation of Jehovah's temple that "WAS" laid, Haggai makes a proclamation on the '24th day of the 9th month' to move the Jews to 'lay brick upon brick' on the already laid foundation.

Temple foundation was laid during the '2nd month', Iyyar (Ziv- Apr/May)- Ez.3:1,10.
---David8318 on 12/13/10


\\Did Christians celebrate "Christmas" in the days of Paul? No- first century Christians had nothing to do with paganism.
---David8318 on 12/12/10\\

Can you explain just how celebrating an important event in our salvation, namely the FACT of the Nativity according to the Flesh of Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ pagan?

It's not a day that's being celebrated. It's a FACT.
---Cluny on 12/13/10


'Clement, Origen, believed Jesus was Michael?' Warwick (1)

"...in the Post-Apostolic period the appearances of angels in the OT narrative...[were] interpreted as appearances of Christ. This identification long remained...as Origen, Justin, Irenaeus, Novatian and the Letter of Hymenaeus as well as other documents abundantly show us." Martin Werner, Formation of Christian Dogma, p. 130

"In a number of passages (from church father Hermas) we read of an angel who is superior...This angel is given the name Michael, and the conclusion is difficult to escape that Hermas saw in him the Son of God and equated him with the archangel Michael." J. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, p. 95

Continued
---scott on 12/13/10


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'Clement, Origen, believed Jesus was Michael?' Warwick (2)

Continued

You'll have to determine for yourself how viewing Christ as an angel (by those 'fathers' and all of the others from the previous thread) fit into their individual Christological views. Some referred to Christ as both 'God' and 'angel'. Were they using the word 'God' as it had (scripturally) been applied to other angels and even men? Can an angel be the 'Almighty' God?

The fact remains that Origen referred to Christ as:

"The Angel of God who came into the world for the salvation of men". The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, p. 568

Start another thread on the topic if you have a genuine interest. This one is about Christmas.
---scott on 12/13/10


Eloy- the foundation of YHWH temple was laid during the '2nd month'. Eye witnesses to the event wrote about it in Ezra 3:1 and 10. If you are trying to suggest that Jesus is the foundation of Jehovah's temple at Haggai 2:18, then you are 'misleading and have been misled'- 2 Tim.3:13.

It is Haggai's proclamation, his rouse to the Jews to get up and get on with temple reconstruction that was made on the 24th day of the 9th month. Not that the foundation of the temple was laid. That foundation was laid in the '2nd month' as reported by the eyewitness Ezra. So your theory is wholly flawed, unless you want to move your celebration to the '2nd month' (Iyyar)- April/May. But you won't because your pagan holy-day December 25 is sacred to you.
---David8318 on 12/13/10


No, Christmas came after the apostles which was a pagan holiday renamed by the Catholoic Church to put to refocus the pagan holiday toward Christ, and the holiday in the United States is to celebrate the birth of Christ.
Arguments about trees, wreaths and community signing miss the issue.
ANY day chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ is a good day and better than any other reason. Put Christ in Christmas or change the name.
---larry on 12/13/10


John & Eloy,
Can either of you give examples what events were celebrated by the NT and/or 1st century Christians? Can you also give examples of what these celebrations did or did not include?
---AG on 12/13/10


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My apologies Eloy! I thought you just wrote your own Gospel, but apparently you wrote an entire bible.

Did you use Greek or Hebrew? How many books are in your bible?

Does it have YOUR version of The Tanakh, (Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim) and The new Testament of Eloy.

I see you have 1 Prophet in your Bible.


NOT BAD!
---John on 12/13/10


Eloy ... Elswhere you have maintained I blasphemed by saying the following:

The only Jesus is sinless.

That the Lord's Prayer says "Forgive our sins"

That only God can judge ans send people to Hell

Can you please tell me which of these statements is blasphemous?
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/13/10


John, Repent. For God's holy word from the lit.Hb. & lit.Gk: "Now set your heart from this day and upward, from the twenty-fourth day of the ninth, (Chisleu is the ninth month= December) from the day that the foundation of Yhwh's temple was laid, set your heart: from this day will I bless. And she birthed the son of her, the first-born, and quilt-strapped him, and laid him in a feed rack, because there was no room for them in the quarters. And they went into the lodging, and found the infant with Mariam the mother of him, and kneeled down and worshipped him. And opening their treasures, they offered to him gifts: amber, libani, and sweet myrrh." Heggai 2:15,18,19+ Lk.2:7+ Mt.2:11 and Luke 1 through 2:39.
---Eloy on 12/12/10


People in sin commonly are "Sorry, I do accept your gospel." I suggest that sinners accept the gospel, then whenever you hear the gospel from a saint from God, you will no longer be sorry or ahamed for your dissing, but instead you will be lightened and become blessed, for the sorrow one has from blasphemy will remain until hard-hearted offender ceases and accepts the proven reality.
---Eloy on 12/12/10


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'Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church.'- The Catholic Encyclopedia.

'The first mention of the celebration of Christmas occurred in A.D.336 in an early Roman calendar.'- The World Book Encyclopedia.

'The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of N[ew] T[estament] origin. The fathers of the first three centuries do not speak of any special observance of the nativity.'- Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by McClintock and Strong.

Did Christians celebrate "Christmas" in the days of Paul? No- first century Christians had nothing to do with paganism.
---David8318 on 12/12/10


If a person is to be a Jewish Messiah and the second Adam they have to be born in the anniversary of the creation of the first Adam. And the answer is not in the Bible, it in the Talmud and that tell you the Jewish Holiday associated with Christ birth. Hint it is ten day prior to Yum Kippur, and the real reason there was no room in the inn because it was the start of High Holy days. Remember Luke was not Jewish and makes a lot of bad assumptions because of it.
---Blogger9211 on 12/12/10


Cluny, ** just goes to show you ,you can't keep the Gospel of Christ down**
What it does show you is it's almost impossible to stamp out paganism.
Carolling is hardly "the gospel of Christ"
Examples= "Remember Christ our saviour was born on Christmas day" Not!
"O Tannenbaum" praise the tree?
"Born is the king of Israel" Not!
(The First Noel)
"Here comes Santa Claus" etc.etc.
I think about one more "rumpa-pum-pum" will just about do me for this year!
---1st_cliff on 12/12/10


If they did celebrate, the evidence is quite limited!

But that does not mean celebration is 'bad' - eveni f there is a very high change the date is wrong
---peter3594 on 12/12/10


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\\Carolling was banned by Oliver Cromwell and the Puritans 16th century CE., but it survived!\\

Just goes to show you can't keep the Gospel of Christ down.
---Cluny on 12/12/10


Cluny, the pagan practice of carolling,(mummering) never "died out" St Francis of Assisi was responsible for again making it part of the celebration of Christ's birth and creating nativity scenes circa 12th century CE.
Carolling was banned by Oliver Cromwell and the Puritans 16th century CE., but it survived!
Christmas was banned for a time in Massachusetts again by Puritans , but carolling survived and is well even today!
---1st_cliff on 12/11/10


Eloy, While you are still looking up scripture to support your other heretical claims. Please also supply us with the scripture of this claim...
==========================================================
The magi followed the bright Daystar 783 miles to Jerusalem, where it would have taken the magi 6 days if they rode on camels, but only 4 days by ambling horses.
==========================================================

Sorry, I don't have "The Gospel According to Eloy" in my Bible.
---John on 12/11/10


Scott on another thread you wrote of those who "have connected Michael the Archangel with Christ." "Connected" a suitably vague word! Jesus is also connected with Adam- 1 Corinthians 15:45. Does this makes them one and the same person?

Are you claiming Clement of Alexandria, Origen, et al believed Jesus was Michael the Archangel, and therefore a creature?

To call those who would separate us from Christ "wolves" is not name calling, just the Biblical term for such people e.g Acts 20:29. Good enough for God, good enough for me.

Your purpose in attempting to deny the deity of Jesus, stems from your JW indoctrination. This sadly does make you a wolf.
---Warwick on 12/12/10


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John, there is No about 18 months when the magi visited Christ's birth. For noticing the star is not the beginning of the birth, nor that the birth has already been born, but following the star is the leading to where the location of the birth will be. The magi followed the bright Daystar 783 miles to Jerusalem, where it would have taken the magi 6 days if they rode on camels, but only 4 days by ambling horses.
---Eloy on 12/11/10


\\I already showed you were it said they visited Him at his HOUSE. \\

Actually, it says that it was at "the house", not CHRIST'S house. Mary and Joseph were living in Nazareth. They were in Bethlehem only temporarily.

But this is a small point.
---Cluny on 12/11/10


Eloy I said A-B-O-U-T 18 months. Its just an educated guess.

Now "Enlightened one" give us the PROOF of your claim

1) Show us where in Scripture is saids... The Lord was born on the Dec25th.

2) Show us in scripture where it saids...The Maji visited infant Jesus at the Manger.

(I already showed you were it said they visited Him at his HOUSE. (meaning not at the manger)

So show us YOUR light with the supporting scripture of your claims.

Otherwise, then you have written your own scripture and blasphmey G-ds word!
---John on 12/10/10


\\Anyway carolling had it's origins in the Roman custom of "Mummers" masking and singing and dancing at the winter solstice.\\

Was it you or someone else who said that Christmas CAROLLING was started by Francis of Assissi in the 12th century--a good NINE centuries (at least) after the pagan celebration had died out.

I think a nine century hiatus is enough to show no connection.
---Cluny on 12/10/10


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John, once again you speak falsehood because there is yet no light in you.
---Eloy on 12/10/10


O John, you are convoluting scripture again. Scripture does not say anywhere that Jesus was 18 months old when the magi came to him. After visiting the infant Jesus, they had a dream not to return to Herod. And after much time passed and Herod realized he was mocked when the magi did not return to him as he instructed them to do in Mt.2:8. Then "at that time Herod seeing that he was mocked by the magi, was enraged greatly, and sending he put to death all the childlings in Bethlehem and in all the borders of it, of two yeras old and under, at the time which he exactly asked from the magi." Mt.2:16.
---Eloy on 12/10/10


\\Enjoy your sun gods worship now decreed "holy" by the Pagan Emperor Constantine.\\

John, do you realize that the Nativity of Christ was observed by churches that were NEVER part of the Empire, such as the Assyrian Church of the East and the St. Thomas Christians of India?

How does this fit in with your theory?
---Cluny on 12/10/10


"This is too complex...to tackle...especially with people who have no idea of Church history." Cluny

Then dumb it down for me. Since 1st century Christians didn't celebrate the birth of Christ, do you view the extra-biblical traditions that came centuries later (including those that have assimilated pagan rites into them) just as important and 'approved' as the inspired biblical record of Christ and his disciples?

If so, what 'traditons' that borrow from modern pagan customs would be off-limits for Christians today? Any of them?

"Even as we have been approved of God to be intrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who proveth our hearts."
1 Thess 2:4 ASV
---scott on 12/10/10


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Once again Eloy, your deluded conception of scripture never fails to amuse me.

Jesus was about 18 months old and Mary was at her house(or more likely her relatives house) when the Magi/s visited. Thus the decree by Herod to slaughter males under 2 years.

If it was at the Manger, then Herod would have made it for males under 3 month or less etc.
It is only an assumption there were 3 Magis because there were 3 gifts nothing else.

Enjoy your sun gods worship now decreed "holy" by the Pagan Emperor Constantine.

He is a much better authority than G-d on what days are Holy. Isn't he?
---John on 12/9/10


\\The real date of Jesus birth...lies concealed beneath a veil of uncertainty...\\

Do you think you're saying something we don't already know?

Actually, 25 December was observed in Rome BEFORE the fourth century, but NOT just as the Nativity. It was the Solemnity of the Incarnation, including Annunciation, the Infancy, Finding in the Temple, Adoration of the Magi, and Baptism of Christ.

But this is too complex a subject to tackle in 125 words, especially with people who have no idea of Church history.

If you reject Nativity because the first generation of Christians didn't observe it, then you must reject the entire NT, too, because they didn't have it.
---Cluny on 12/9/10


Cluny,I'll tell Miriam Webster to check her dictionary next time I see her! Carole- ring, circle (of stones)
Anyway carolling had it's origins in the Roman custom of "Mummers" masking and singing and dancing at the winter solstice.
Pope Julius1 declared dec.25 the date to celebrate Christ's birth 350CE.
Let's celebrate April 20th (Hitler's birthday) and call it "Jesus Day" forgetting about Auswitch, Belsen Sobibor etc. just have fun!
---1st_cliff on 12/9/10


The shepherds celebrated the birth of Christ. And those three wise men did, later, I would say. Of course, every day has been a day to celebrate the birth of Jesus . . . His coming in the flesh.

"By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God," (1 John 4:2)

But did the Apostles celebrate December 25th as being His birthday? I suppose not that day. They were celebrating His birth, all the time, I would say.
---Bill_willa6989 on 12/9/10


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1st cliff, Mag"i" is plural, and not singular as in magos. And the scripture when naming only two individuals usually will either name each partners name, as in Peter and Paul went to...., etc., or else says "the two" came...Also there were exactly three different gifts offered and not four or more, therefore it would be insolence for a fourth to appear before the Most High King empty-handed, and likewise a fifth or sixth or more without an offering would be sin, and also if there were a crowd then scripture would have said so. They came from the east, and east of Jerusalem is Persia (presently, Iran) offering amber, Ur of the Chaldees (presently, Iraq) offering libani, and Arabia (presently, Kuwait) offering sweet myrrh.
---Eloy on 12/10/10


Eloy, You. who strives for accuracy are now claiming that there were "3" magi? What scripture is that?
---1st_cliff on 12/9/10


Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano-

Cluny-

"The real date of Jesus birth...lies concealed beneath a veil of uncertainty...The date of 25 December, as is well known, was chosen by the Church of Rome in the fourth century. This date in pagan Rome was dedicated to the Sun god...Christianity had already been affirmed in Rome by an Edict of Constantine, the myth of . . . the Sun god was still widespread, especially among soldiers...

...The...festivities...were deeply rooted in popular tradition. This gave the Church...the idea of impressing a Christian religious significance on the day by replacing the Sun god with the...Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ, choosing it as the day on which to celebrate his birth."
---scott on 12/9/10


\\Cluny, Carole is old French for "round" the pagans used to dance and sing in circles at the winter Solstice.\\

Wrong.

"Carol" is a contraction of "choros aulos"--to dance with flutes.

And I'm a music history major, so I think I know what I'm talking about.
---Cluny on 12/9/10


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"The three magi..."Eloy

How many Magi?

Check the account. Next you would have us believe that Eve ate the forbidden 'apple' or that Jonah was swallowed by a 'whale'.

Often, traditional details are assumed to be part of the biblical account(s) when in fact those details aren't in the bible itself.

Was it an apple? Could be, but the Hebrew word for 'fruit' is found in the account, not apple.

Was Noah swallowed by a 'whale'? Could be, but the the Hebrew is 'gadole dag' meaning simply 'big fish'.
---scott on 12/9/10


Eloy,
Since there is not a hint of evidence that the Apostles honored Christ's birth how do you theorize they celebrated it?
---AG on 12/9/10


...recorded that the three magi came and offered their gifts to baby Jesus, and we are commanded to give honor where honor is due. I am sure that they celebrated birthdays...
*****

no birth-date EVER celebrated by Hebrews it is and always has been a PAGAN tradition

FACTS

1) MAGI-CIANS were bringing gifts to Biblical Christ the future KING to rule in Jerusalem when He returns ...a custom heads of state still honor today ...HONOR Magicians gave Christ was to HIM as a KING not a birth-date

2) Biblical Christ was not born on the sun-gods day ...The Father in Heaven would not create that confusion only SATAN would ...nothing supports and nobody is foolish enough to claim Biblical Christ was born on 12/25
---Rhonda on 12/9/10


Only TWO accounts of birthday celebrations is mentioned in the Holy Bible. They were by heathen/pagan kings, Pharaoh (Genesis 40:20) and King Herod (Matthew 4:6 & Mark 6:21). Outside of these two Godless kings, there's no other mention that Christians were practicing such celebrations.

How does "make a wish", "happy", "merry", words that are so commonly used on such occasions be counted as Godly? Yet in the same breathe we say the Lord's prayer, "Thy will be done on earth as in heaven". And we are told that Jesus was, "Despised and rejected of men, A MAN OF SORROWS, and ACQUAINTED WITH GRIEF..." Isaiah 53:3, yet you call Him merry & happy?
---christan on 12/9/10


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in some article, the birth of christ is not december but around summer time bec. the shepherds were herding their sheeps when the angel delivered the news. you cannot do that during winter time.
---mike on 12/9/10


Some of you clowns are funny on here. It is recorded that the three magi came and offered their gifts to baby Jesus, and we are commanded to give honor where honor is due. I am sure that they celebrated birthdays, and weddings, and other joyful events, just as I am also sure they shaved and bathed and groomed and perfumed themselves, made cakes and breads and pies, etc. What do you think, that Christians instead of rejoicing they moped around in grey and ashes and cried "unworthy is me, woe and gloom am I?" Not so, Christians are some of the most joyous people in all the world.
---Eloy on 12/8/10


Scripture declares "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:11,12,18

As a theologian once said, "Every one of us is, even from his mother's womb, is a master craftsman of idols. Man's mind is like a store of idolatry and superstition, so much so that if a man believes his own mind it is certain that he will forsake God and forge some idol in his own brain." Bang right on target!
---christan on 12/9/10


Cluny, Carole is old French for "round" the pagans used to dance and sing in circles at the winter Solstice.
It is believed that St.Francis of Assisi introduced the Christmas caroling about 1223 CE. As for a "particular" song who knows??
Maybe Good King Wincisslasses (who knows how to spell this one?)
---1st_cliff on 12/9/10


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\\Really? You equate the use of mundane, modern day technology or hymnals with practices that have unquestionably been attributed to the worship of false pagan Gods? (Saturnalia, et al).\\

Attributing the feast of the Nativity of Christ to Saturnalia does not PROVE an intrinsic connection.

There were pagan prayer books and hymnals before there were Christian ones.

If you believe there is a connection in the first paragraph, then you must, by logic and justice, believe in the connection in the second paragraph.
---Cluny on 12/8/10


NO Christians did NOT celebrate Christmas in the Apostle Paul's day. Christmas started as a Pagan celebration of the sun god by Constantine. For more info. on this go to Jim Staley's website and Rico Cortes's website.
---Leslie on 12/8/10


"No, and they didn't use computers...If not, why do YOU and YOUR church use them?" Cluny

Cluny, this line of reasoning is beneath a man of your intelligence.

Really? You equate the use of mundane, modern day technology or hymnals with practices that have unquestionably been attributed to the worship of false pagan Gods? (Saturnalia, et al).

With that reasoning I would ask:

Would it be appropriate for a Christian to burn the (Hindu) 'Holika Dahan'. ('Holi' bonfire- attributed by some to the burning of the Hindu demonesses Holika) because the apostles didn't have food processors and ipads?
---scott on 12/8/10


\\Mike, Yes they(Christians?) celebrated big time with holly berries,mistletoe, yule logs carol singing,dressing up etc..only they didn't call it Christmas, they called it "Saturnalia"!\\

1stCliff, since Saturnalia was a pagan Roman feast, can you give any words (original Latin or translation) to a Saturnalia carol, please?

BTW--Yule log, as I said earlier, is a NORSE, not a Roman custom.
---Cluny on 12/8/10


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Of course not!!! They were not Pagans,they were Christians.

Also they were there when he had his birthday in September on Sukkot.

They did not burn the Yule Log effigy or brought in an Evergreen tree or sacrificed humans to the light gods of Pagan Emporer Constantine.
(Hmmm? Was he a Saint? Ortho/RCC term for their numerous g-ds)

Was Obama Born on Christmas?
---John on 12/8/10


christ-mass is a word developed by rcc ...a blending of christ and their mirtha mass (killing of christ)

xmas is a gentile christian celebration merging of pagan traditions which God HATES with Biblical Christ

Christ who was a JEW would not celebrate His birth - no Jew's celebrated the day of their birth only the pagan's did

centuries later many culture's now celebrate their birth

there are so many LIES about the pagan day of xmas if one truly LIVED for Biblical Christ it would be impossible to associate with the suns-day now called xmas ...many choose to be of the world its ways and live for majority then dismiss this day to LIVE for Christ
---Rhonda on 12/8/10


no, not in that day. it was at least 300 years after that this was adopted. however the pagans of that time celebrated the Winter Solsece with their sun god.
---candice on 12/8/10


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