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Is God's Grace Unmerited

If the saving Grace of God is unmerited, why did Paul teach us that Abraham's faith, was credited to him as Righteousness?

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 ---David on 12/11/10
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(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,)


What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

tell me!
---TheSeg on 12/16/10


//God only WORKS in the hearts of those who belong to Him AFTER they receive Christ.

Your statement ignores what the scripture has taught.

Romans 9:7 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.'

And God continually worked to harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would willing decide to do what God wanted him to do.

There is no reason to believe God will not work even NOW within the hearts of those who do not know Him for His own glory.

The LORD looks down from heaven, he sees all the children of man,...he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds. Psalms 33:13,15
---leej on 12/16/10


AFTER THEY RECEIVE CHRIST

If a person says they RECEIVE CHRIST - That person is trying to do the WORK, or have something to do with getting themselves save. And the Bible assures us, that there is nothing we can do to get are selves saved.

LAMENTATION 3:26 It is good that a man should HOPE and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD ( It's the HOPE of salvation,)
---RICHARD on 12/16/10


The Seg, I really read you statements a few times and I always like what you write and wanted to answer you but I do not get what the question really is. Can you present it again for me? This blog is closing down so we have to talk about this very important truths on another blog OK?
---Mark_V. on 12/16/10


"It is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for His good pleasure" Phil. 2:13. ---Mark_V. on 12/16/10

I do hope people know this verse is to someone who is already saved. It has nothing to do with before salvation.

God only WORKS in the hearts of those who belong to Him AFTER they receive Christ. That is a wonderful promise to uswho are saved and go on in obedience of His WILL after salvation. It's Gods POWER in you through Jesus Christ.

To use this before salvation is false doctrine. God THROUGH Christ is not in an unbeliever..
Or else you are saying Christ was in you before you were ever born...FALSE!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/16/10




alan8566_of_uk While the idea that God is in control of all His creation, even down to the lowest life form, may sounds like we are only puppets on a string, we are given very little wiggle room for interpretation in Romans 9.

However, you must consider the fact that scripture tells us that we can grieve or quench His Spirit (Eph. 4:30, 1 Th. 5:19), and that we are under His discipline as adopted children, should reveal to us that we have been granted some liberty to do what we wish on our part.

We do not have to like it, but that is the Word of God. I am told Calvin did not like it either but could not find any other plausible interpretation that would give us equal rights with God.
---leej on 12/16/10


Hi mark
Forgive me, man!
but i'm having a hard time trying to understand.
what commitment can I make to christ. I mean one that I can keep?

I said to myself, to believe him! I ask myself did I make this commitment? I would have to say, No! I believe even this was given to be, by him.
And even now i'm asking myself can i say, i will believe in him no matter what. Yea, i can say it.
Someone please help me out here!
what did or what can i do.
That is only from me? whitout the word try!
I can do nothing!
---TheSeg on 12/16/10


God opens our eyes to who Jesus is and why we need Him and then we are required to repent and believe.

It is Gods will that all men be saved, but just as men have always done most harden their heart to the voice of God.

It is not a WORK to place your trust in someone who has done all that is necessary to save you from your own stupidity. Therefore all the glory still goes to God.

You dont have to be a Calvinist to give glory to the Lord for the things He has done for us.
---JackB on 12/16/10


Mark ... I made the decision, and God did not force me.

Your scenario describes Him as a puppeter, direting everything I do.

It follows then that He directs others to continue their sinful life, and to remain unsaved ... so He can punish them for doing as He directs (but you call it disobedience!)
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/16/10


Alan, let me ask you, did you make a commitment to Christ or did God make you? That decision came from within your heart. You made it. Did God forced you? No. "God, so presents the outside inducements that man acts in accordance with his own nature, yet does exactly what God has ordained for him to do."
Scripture has many references concerning the works of God in a man's heart. "It is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for His good pleasure" Phil. 2:13. You are doing the choices from your heart, but God is directing you. "A man's heart devices his ways, but the Lord directeth his steps" Prov. 16:9.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/10




Mark ... I would not disagree with your answers!

But your opening words refer to decisions that we make. And previoulsy you have confirmed that we do make decisions. Which I agree with.
But the predestination that you present has God decreeing (which is deciding & causing to happen, by law) that some will repent, and that others will not repent.

That means they do not make their own decision.

Cannot you see where you are confused?
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/16/10


(Romans 8:29)"For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren, and whom He foreordained, them He also called, and whom He called, them He also justified, and whom He justified, them He also glorified" ---Mark_V. on 12/15/10

Mark
If a farmer plants a watermelon seed, What is foreordained to come from that seed?
A Watermelon!
If God has planted his good seed in us, What is foreordained to come from that seed?
The Son's of God!

But, do all who receive the seed of God, become Son's of God?
Notice in Romans 8 it says, Might be the Firstborn, it does not say, Will be the firstborn.
---David on 12/16/10


leej ... But since God has decided and controlled everything and everyone since before time ... how can you possibly say that man chose to disobey?

Mark ... You now say ""The elect of God are chosen by Him to be His children, in order that they might be made to believe, not because He foresaw that they would believe"

That is in direct conflict with what you previously said .."The decision will come from your heart, but what you decide is already known by God"

Donna "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Yes, and we can accept or reject the gift
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/16/10


Alan, they are serious questions to those who want to do everything possible to keep God out of our decisions in life. They insist on been autonomous. They want complete free will and insist on it. Who designed that sin was rebellion against God?
Answer-God.
Who imposed commands on men?
God.
Who made the curse?
God
Who set the moral laws?
God.
Who demands obedience?
God.
Who made Adam our representative?
God.
Why did He? Because He wanted to. He didn't have to.
Who designed heaven and hell? God.
Why are many people going to heaven?
Because of God.
Why are many going to hell? Because of God.
Don't you get it? It is all about God. Not about what you feel or think is right.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/10


--- "By faith Abel offered unto God..." And now that we are talking about Abel's faith, was this faith in him from the beginning or from without? Bet you're stuck right here.

Abel's faith is from God and not from himself!
---christan on 12/15/10

christian, I'm not STUCK at all,

Let's say this. According to God's revealed will to men **Genesis 3:15, Abel OBEYED from withing himself what he knew God wanted.
Moses too obeyed God once he found out who he was and left Egypt. Again Obedience to God's known will.

No scripture in all the bible says God gave any favorites faith to obey! He gave His Word so we could by faith OBEY!
---kathr4453 on 12/16/10


Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,

Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
---Donna66 on 12/15/10


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In Romans 8:29,30 we read,
"For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren, and whom He foreordained, them He also called, and whom He called, them He also justified, and whom He justified, them He also glorified"
If you notice that "The elect of God are chosen by Him to be His children, in order that they might be made to believe, not because He foresaw that they would believe. "For it is God who worketh in us, both to will and to do of His good pleasure" Phil. 2:12,13.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/10


The nature of unregenerate flesh is to receive, receive, receive, and to give nothing..."what do I get for free?...how much can I get for free?...can I get paid without working?...will God love me when I serve sin instead of serve him?..."can I follow the world and follow Christ too?..."can I have carnal comforts and also have a godly life?...what is in it For Me?...why should I care For Others in need?..."
---Eloy_December_15_2010_A.D. on 12/15/10


I just need to say that my last post did not represent my belief, but what has been said here by others claiming that we don't have freewill. and thta God controls, predestines every thing that has ever happened since the start of creation
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/15/10


When Christ said:
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

And when he said:
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

indeed saying:
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
---TheSeg on 12/15/10


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kathr, when you mention about Abel and Cain, you stop at what Abel did that was pleasing to God, again making it sound like Abel had the ability to obey and please God on his own will.

What you do not say is, Hebrews 11 specifically speaks about Faith. You deliberately left out "By faith Abel offered unto God..." And now that we are talking about Abel's faith, was this faith in him from the beginning or from without? Bet you're stuck right here.

Let Scripture help you, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9.

Abel's faith is from God and not from himself!
---christan on 12/15/10


//... But why are they in that unregnerated state? Since God controls everything ... it is because He put them in that state.

When man (whom God made for His glory) chose to disobey, he came under the curse resulting in death.

1 Cor. 15:21-23 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order:

While we have freedom to do whatever we wish - God's permissive will - He rules and overrules according to His good pleasure.

The fact that we can grieve or quench God's Spirit should indicate to us that we do have some freedom to do what we wish.




---leej on 12/15/10


The only reason man do anything good is because of God. In fact my whole dependence is on God. For God says, "Everything good comes from above" The saving of the Gospel was provided by God using the remnant to bring us the gospel, just as we are commanded to preach the gospel to others so that God can bring faith to those whom He wants to have mercy on.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/10


//Free will Arminians views takes election out of the hands of God and puts it into the hands of man

Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has chosen you,

Scripture commands us to make certain our election.

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
---leej on 12/15/10


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Mark ... You said "The decision will come from your heart, but what you decide is already known by God. That is why people are held accountable. You are a free agent, what you do, will do, and when you are born and when you will die is all known by God. If He didn't know, He would not be all Knowing, Omniscient. If you make a decision to learn the Sovereignty of God, then it was determined that you would. You still have to make the decision"

That describes Free Will ... not your extended & distorted version which says FreeWillers claim they have saved themselves, want to control God, & deny His Sovereignty.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/15/10


"Calvinism offers us a great God who is infinite in His perfections, who dispenses mercy and justice as He sees best"
So He dispenses justice and mercy by eternally punishing those who behave as He has decreed from before time. God decidees they will sin, and punishes them for following His decree. Some justice, some mercy!!

"What other reason would we pray and ask God to change our children when they are lost?"
Why do you pray, since God decided before time what He would do with those childrens hearts?

Mark these are serious questions, not attacks on you.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/15/10


Free will Arminians views takes election out of the hands of God and puts it into the hands of man, --. This makes the purposes of Almighty God to be conditioned by the precarious wills of apostate men and makes temporal events to be the cause of His eternal acts.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/

MarkV, is this a contradiction to your comment on another thread? You stated there God indeed needed men in the 1st century to to carry on the Gospel or else the Gospel would have been lost forever? SO LITTLE faith in God? Obviously God did need first century commentators who were sinners to carry on His work on earth.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/10


Free will Arminians views takes election out of the hands of God and puts it into the hands of man, sinful man at that. This makes the purposes of Almighty God to be conditioned by the precarious wills of apostate men and makes temporal events to be the cause of His eternal acts. It also means that God has created a set of sovereign beings upon whom to a certain extent His will and actions are dependent. In contrast to all this, Calvinism offers us a great God who is infinite in His perfections, who dispenses mercy and justice as He sees best, and who actually Rules in the affairs of men. What other reason would we pray and ask God to change our children when they are lost? What happens is that everyone on their knees is a Calvinist at heart.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/10


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Leej ... But why are they in that unregnerated state? Since God controls everything ... it is because He put them in that state.
That's the same as making them thus.

So it makes God the author of evil.

N"Satan and his host are the real "authors" of sin, although God created them and decreed even their sin without being Himself the author of it"


Decree means order. If God decreed that Satan should sin, God is responsible for Satan sinning.

.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/15/10


It's not "if" he is in control of everything. You just can believe it.
Did not Christ say there is none good but one, that is, God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

But, you won't will you?
You stand on the law!
---TheSeg on 12/15/10


God's Grace is merited to those who hear teh Gspel and respond.

Merit also means favor.

Let's see what God said about favor/merit in Genesis:Genesis 4:3-5
In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 And Abel also brought an offeringfat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

Now read Heb 11 concerning Abel's offering.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNMERITED FAVOR/GRACE!
---kathr4453 on 12/15/10


alan8566_of_UK //If God controls all things, including all our decisions (as some have claimed here) it does mean that God must be the author of our sins, as we are not allowed any choice as to whether to sin, repant or anything.

For those whom God has not ordained unto eternal life, He has simply left them in their unregenerative state in which is their nature to sin.

However, they are still responsible for what they do and accountable.

God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. James 1:13

Satan and his host are the real "authors" of sin, although God created them and decreed even their sin without being Himself the author of it.

---leej on 12/14/10


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If God controls everything, then I am not responsible for what I do.
That's what you think foolish man.

Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" 20 "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" 21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Praise the Lord, for He is Sovereign and man will be held accountable.
---christan on 12/14/10


"If God controls all things, then he must be the author of sin."

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." And for a Holy purpose of throwing evil into hell to demonstrate His hatred and intolerance (0%) of evil and sin.

God is Holy, Holy, Holy (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). And in His Holiness, He can never sin. While mankind is the opposite, we are sinful and can never be Holy, unless God changes the sin nature through regeneration of the Spirit. And this is the sole work of God.

That's why the doctrine of free-will is evil, robbing God of His glory like what happened in Eden between Satan and Adam.
---christan on 12/14/10


Leej "3) If God controls all things, then he must be the author of sin.

False - He has decreed that we should obey Him"

If God controls all things, including all our decisions (as some have claimed here) it does mean that God must be the author of our sins, as we are not allowed any choice as to whether to sin, repant or anything.
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/14/10


donna66,

i did not make the Westminster quote leej did in defense of Calvinism.

as far as predestination goes, i believe that both sides are correct.

now, there is no more need to discuss this.
---aka on 12/14/10


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Alan, I have not described "free will." In fact the will of the lost is enslaved to sin. He has no "free will." It does what it's sinful nature desires. When a person is born of the Spirit, his will is enslaved to Christ, and does what Christ desires. The will is not autonomous. Autonomous implies absolute freedom. We are free agents, but there are limits to our freedom. The ultimate limit is the sovereignty of God. Does the law of God place restrictions on human freedom? Yes. Is God not permitted to impose limits on what I may choose? Not only may God impose moral limits upon my freedom, but He has every right at any moment to strike me dead if it is necessary to restrain me from exercising my evil choices.
---Mark_V. on 12/14/10


leej, I'm still waiting for your reply that Jesus redeemed angels.

eternal lfe is given to HUMANS through Christ and His death and resurrection.

So yes, I object to your Westminster Confession here.

And I do believe Judas could have been forgiven if only he asked. cripture does say one would betray Christ, yet, unless I missed something there was no OT Prophecy also stating that person could never receive forgivness.

Because of that, I say there is NO PROOF Judas was predestined or forordained to hell. He's there by his own choice.
---kathr4453 on 12/14/10


aka 1) If God controls everything, then I am not responsible for what I do.

False - God does not force anyone to sin against ones will, However, one acts within the ones nature and if God has not given you a new nature, then whatever you do will not please God.

2) If God controls everything then things will turn out the same no matter what I do.

False, as the assumption here is that certain personal actions may happen in a random & uncertain way. There is a cause & effect for certain actions.

3) If God controls all thins, then he must be the author of sin.

False - He has decreed that we should obey Him.
---leej on 12/14/10


AKA, my suggestion to anyone that has questions on what God's Word says about God, should take a study only on God. Know Him, His Omniscience, His Omnipotence, His Omnipresence, His immutability, His nature. If they study all the passages that pertain to God's character, nature, and attributes, they will know all the answers to their questions. If they go against who God is, they are wrong. His character, nature and attributes, and His immutability never changes. The problem many have is they don't want to take the time to know Him, they know the incarnate Son Jesus Christ, but forget He is also God. They can spend a lot of time watching TV, watching a football game, but not time in whom they are depended on.
---Mark_V. on 12/14/10


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Pharisee - if Sarah had been Abraham's pet ape, yet living with Abraham in the capacity of his wife, I believe that the consequences would be important to us all
---RitaH on 12/13/10

You're right, thanks for the chuckle, it's all I meant to provide
---Pharisee on 12/14/10


/"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others forordained to everlasting death." Westminister Confessions III.3// --leej
---aka on 12/14/10


OH MY here we go again putting our faith in the Westminster confession and not God's Word.

Where on earth are angels given everlasting life. Angels are eternal beings from the beginning, having eternal life, some will burn forever in hell, and others didn't LEAVE and fall with Lucifer.

Again leej, you've gone from diapers to DEPENDS! Depends on who/ not God said what!
---kathr4453 on 12/14/10


aka-- Be sensible will you?
The Westminister Confession has to do with eternity, not a temporary state of ignorance...else we might as well close all schools.

1Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Does Paul expect them to stay that way?

And most applicable of all to this blog is:
1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
You are just arguing for the sake of argument, now, and have no real point to make. I'm done with this discussion.
---Donna66 on 12/14/10


Mark WE AGREE !!!

You have described FreeWill.

We differ I think over the use of the word predetermination, which in common parlance, and as used by Calvin, means that God decides & decrees what will happen.

What you have talked about here is God knowing what we will choose. And FreeWill jhas no argument with that
---alan8566_of_UK on 12/14/10


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Donna66

//Are you saying that whatever state you are presently in, Calvinists believe you were predestined to that forever? Nobody believes that, as you well know. You are taking things to a ridiculous extreme. -donna66

//"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others forordained to everlasting death." Westminister Confessions III.3// --leej
---aka on 12/14/10


Leej, Josef and Christian, all three of you have answered the question very well. Without the calling by God and that faith from God, Abraham would have continued his own way just as so many others. He was called out of Ur in southern Babylonia at about 2000 b.c. and lived in Haran in the Northern Mesopotamia until his father, Terah died. Then he entered Canaan. His faith and obedience as a 'sojourner and pilgrim' and his offering of Isaac are portrayed as outstanding illustrations of justifying faith in action (Heb. 11:8-19, James 2:20-23).
---Mark_V. on 12/13/10


//How can I understand Calvinism if I were predetermined ignorant to Calvinism by God?

That is truly a good question as we read in scripture -

Php. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So now you know why you have not been called to be a plumber.
---leej on 12/13/10


Aka, great question:

"My question: How can I understand Calvinism if I were predetermined ignorant to Calvinism by God?"

The answer is, you cannot. And it will not be because God stopped you from learning, but because of the decision you make. All is already known by God what it will be. The decision will come from your heart, but what you decide is already known by God. That is why people are held accountable. You are a free agent, what you do, will do, and when you are born and when you will die is all known by God. If He didn't know, He would not be all Knowing, Omniscient. If you make a decision to learn the Sovereignty of God, then it was determined that you would. You still have to make the decision.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/10


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aka//Reading and understanding other peoples post is easily remedied, also, because I do not think you were predetermined.

To make matters even worst (Kathr will really love this comment) -

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others forordained to everlasting death." Westminister Confessions III.3

While we cannot impose our value system unto God, we really need to determine if Scripture truly supports this viewpoint.

Was Judas foreordained to betray Christ? Is his eternal abode in the bowels of hell? John 17:12
---leej on 12/13/10


AKA 2: When you ask the question it was about predetermined and what I answered was concerning that topic only. I would expect that all genuine Christians would learn who God is first before they answer questions. Most of the answers that are given by those who oppose the sovereignty of God, go against the Attributes, Character and nature of God, so they have to be wrong. No answer is outside the attributes, character and nature of God. All those work together in every answer. There is thousands of passages that speak of the Sovereignty of God, and everyone that we have shown to others are completely ignored. You know why? Because the passages do not fit their theology, their answers.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/10


Warwick //It was God's choice, and prerogative to credit this faith to Abraham as righteousness.

Totally agree (for a change), however, wonder if you can convince Kathryn that it is God that choses as we in ourselves are as dead spiritually.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
---leej on 12/13/10


God's grace is not unmerited, but always conditional upon ones repentance and obedience. God did not made the very real and horrific lake of fire and brimstone in vain. When a person sins they have broken the law and must pay the consequences, but when the sinner fesses up to their sin and genuinely repents to God and makes amends, then and only then will God extend his grace: but when the sinner fesses not and continues in their sin, then there is no restoration nor fellowship, and God rightly extends his wrath and not his grace to that law-breaker.
---Eloy on 12/13/10


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This good enough, Pharisee?
---Cluny on 12/12/10

"and they will slay me for my wife's sake." Gen. 20:11

What did he call her? You are right though, she WAS at one time a half sister to him, I'll give you credit there, but in any event you have to admit this is trivial knowledge, and the truth is he covered the true nature of his relationship to Sarah, and that was my point.
---Pharisee on 12/13/10


Pharisee - if Sarah had been Abraham's pet ape, yet living with Abraham in the capacity of his wife, I believe that the consequences would be important to us all
---RitaH on 12/13/10


credited as you say is also grace and unmerited.
---larry on 12/13/10


Not obstinate...but confused about what you meant. Are you saying that whatever state you are presently in, Calvinists believe you were predestined to that forever? Nobody believes that, as you well know. You are taking things to a ridiculous extreme.

Or maybe you liken Calvinists to Mae West, who used to say. "Why am I single? I'm single because I was born that way!" :)
---Donna66 on 12/13/10


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Abel's faith was also credited to him as righteousness.

When we start at Hebrews 11, the GREAT chapter explaining faith and the examples of those who posessed true faith and the evidence in their lives, I do not see one, not even one verse or word or thought that calvinism teaches.

What I do see is a long list of men and women just like you and me who did it all without the indwelling Holy Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 12/13/10


Donna66, Since the Is Church History Important blog is closed, I will address your response here (which seems very appropriate).

//aka--I think it was a blogger who called you ignorant, not God. And I think he said you were ignorant about Calvinism, which is easily remedied.//

I already said that it was the blogger who called me ignorant and suggested that I study. I have already studied Calvinism, and Calvin says that everything is predetermined by God. Therefore...

My question: How can I understand Calvinism if I were predetermined ignorant to Calvinism by God?

Reading and understanding other peoples post is easily remedied, also, because I do not think you were predetermined obstinate.
---aka on 12/12/10


leej, what ever...It was still Abraham's Faith. No where does it say it was God's faith given to abraham.

and no where is there anything that says Abraham was regenerated first to have faith. That is all extrabiblical stuff just as the RCC believe all that extra biblical stuff about Mary.

Just as the woman who touched Jesus robe was the womans faith. Jesus asked WHO did touched me that virtue left my body?If he gave it to her, why would He ask?

Jesus is telling us all through out scripture Abraham's faith, YOUR faith has healed etc.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/10


Regarding Abraham we need to remember 2 things. Firstly, all mankind (obviously including Abraham) are sinners-Romans 3:23. Secondly, God alone is Saviour-Isaiah 43:3,11.

So no man can save himself, no matter how faithful or 'good.'

Therefore it was Abraham's faith, not sinlessness, which pleased God. It was God's choice, and prerogative to credit this faith to Abraham as righteousness. Abraham could not do this for himself and it was not merited, but as for us a gift of God-Ephesians 2:8-9.

Abraham surely was a man of extraordinary faith but nonetheless like you and me, (sinners who desperately needed forgiveness) did not merit forgiveness but received it only through God's free gift.
---Warwick on 12/12/10


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\\I don't remember seeing where Sarah was his half sister, can you give evidence for your claim?
---Pharisee on 12/12/10
\\

Genesis 20:12
And yet indeed she is my sister, she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife.

This good enough, Pharisee?
---Cluny on 12/12/10


Genesis 20:12 And yet indeed [she is] my sister, she [is] the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife.
---micha9344 on 12/12/10


Because he believed God! Not in God!
But, God! He believed, God!

This might sound strange, but so many believe in God.
But, have absolutely no faith in him to do, what he said!
Many here say they believe God can do anything.
But at other times and with other words deny this!
You may not see this, but you do!

You are the ones denying him!
Yes, you say its from the bible.
So, are the Ten Commandments!
And everyone was so sure they had it right.
Before he explain them!
And till today you dont understand!

Today most think they have it right too.
But look at the things you say about each other.
Look at the words coming out of your mouth.
---TheSeg on 12/12/10


the saving grace of God,and faith are 2 different things,grace by definition is unmerited,thats why its called grace,scripture plainly tells us that there is nothing we can do to merit Gods grace ,he gives it freely,faith is a choice
---tom2 on 12/13/10


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//why did Paul teach us that Abraham's faith, was credited to him as Righteousness?

Abraham did not chose God but God in His sovereign will chose Abraham out of all people for the purpose of His will. Acts 7:2f

And since Abraham responded and believed God, his faith was counted as righteousness.

Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

It is hard to deny the fact that God predestined Abraham for His good pleasure as the Father of those who would believe by faith.
---leej on 12/12/10


Actually, Sarah WAS his half-sister.
---Cluny on 12/12/10

And I needed to know this??? if it was his pet ape, half sister, or summertime hireling is of no consequence, she lived in the capacity of his wife.

I'm not going to reread the text for this (call me lazy if you want to) but I don't remember seeing where Sarah was his half sister, can you give evidence for your claim?
---Pharisee on 12/12/10


kathr4453--- No Calvinist I know of calls themselves "wicked" (unless referring to their natural sinful nature). You keep claiming they do, but no contorted play on words will make it so.
---Donna66 on 12/12/10


Leslie, if you read all of romans 4, abraham's FAITH was in a promise of a son. That son pointed to Christ. Isaac was also placed on an alter, and abraham was asked to sacrifice him, also pointing to Christ. Heb 11 states in that Abraham saw the resurrection.

Abraham's faith in teh coming redeemer is the SAME faith we have in the Redeemer.

Galatians also tells us those who are of the faith of Abraham are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise. If abraham's faith was work, then Galatains is teaching works. Paul is certainly not!

And donna66, it's calvinists who are calling themselves wicked. I never did!
The Body of Christ is NOT WICKED or responsible for the ills on America!
---kathr4453 on 12/12/10


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In the way in which the Lord has taught me, Abraham is an example of one who was CHOSEN by God, and why he was CHOSEN.

Paul was expounding on Christ's teaching that "Many are called, but Few are Chosen", and why it is that God chooses the Few and not the Many.
Abraham was not chosen by his one act of Faith, but it was by many acts of Faith.
Just as we are not Chosen by one act of Faith,(Baptism, Sinner's Prayer, etc..) but we are chosen by walking in the ways of the Lord, which is the purest definition of Faith in God.

Those who are Chosen, are not Chosen not by their works, but it is by their works that they show their love for God, and it is by being chosen, that God shows his love for them.



---David on 12/12/10


\\He lied and said his wife was his sister, and then slept with his servant to conceive a child instead of waiting on God.\\

Actually, Sarah WAS his half-sister.
---Cluny on 12/12/10


Abraham was in the time before the cross (death and resurrection), so therefore his faith (trusting and obeying) was credited to his account as righteousness. Today we have been redeemed by the cross (death and resurrection), so while we are still REQUIRED to trust and obey in our faith, Jesus was the fulfillment of our salvation. Abraham did on his own by works, we do by Christ in faith.
---Leslie on 12/11/10


Reading the Scriptures without the Spirit guidance, one will be totally lost and the Scripture will be a complete mystery. Without the epistles, we will never know of God's works and plans in Jesus Christ which He revealed to Paul, Peter, John in their epistles.

It is now that we know from the first saint, Abel to the last who walks in to His kingdom are saved through the Justification of Faith by God only. For without Faith from God, which is His Holy property, no one can please Him. God glories in His own work through the salvation of His people and the destruction of His enemies.

And this He tells us that He has chosen them before the foundations of the world for eternal life and death.
---christan on 12/11/10


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Righteousness, faith, and grace are NOT the same things.

Did you think they were?
---Cluny on 12/11/10


If we take into account all of Abraham's life there is plenty that will keep him from heaven. He lied and said his wife was his sister, and then slept with his servant to conceive a child instead of waiting on God.

If we looked at Abraham's works there is nothing to merit salvation. What work is done in believing something? Sure, there will be actions that make that faith manifest physically, but his faith is something that God gave him, or how could he have faith in God apart from God's existence? So even his faith is God's work, Abraham didn't earn it if God did it.
---Pharisee on 12/11/10


Faith is what gets us connected so we receive what is unmerited.

It's like you have a million dollars in a safe, and you don't deserve it, but you need to have the combination to get into the safe. If you use the combination, you get the million dollars to your credit (c: But if you refuse to use what can get you the million dollars, no one will give you credit for it!
---Bill_willa6989 on 12/11/10


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