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Did Cross Fulfil The Law

If "all was fulfilled at the cross", then what are we still doing here? And what did Jesus mean when He said the Law would remain "Till heaven and earth pass" (Mat 5:18)?

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Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
---francis on 12/20/10

francis, Matthew again is to Israel and pertains to the Great Tribulation. I have no intention of taking FLIGHT anwwhere.

Paul never taught the Church was or had need to take Flight.

The only FLIGHT the Church is going to take is UP and out of here..to Meet Jesus in the clouds.

so francis, when that day comes, where will you take flight to? The mountains, desert? under your bed?

Or in teh arms of God through Christ, who promised His WRATH will not come on the Church?
---kathr4453 on 12/20/10


francis//Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

The prophecy regarding this verse was fulfilled in 70 a.d. when the Romans overran Jerusalem.

During a break in the seige, Jewish Christian fled to Pella under the leadership of Simon, James' brother. But they were later butchered by the Romans. And that ended the Jewish leadership of the Church and an participation in the Temple. Leadership then passed to the Gentiles who did not not not observe the Jewish sabbath or the dietary laws.
---leej on 12/20/10


---kathr4453 on 12/20/10
BIBLE ALWAYS RIGHT

Ezekiel 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which [if] a man do, he shall even live in them, and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which [if] a man do, he shall even live in them, they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
---francis on 12/20/10


Not only does the bible say that they did not enter cannan because of not keeping the laws/ sabbath, It was also a KEY reason why they were in exile:

2 Chronicles 36:21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: [for] as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
---francis on 12/20/10


//Strange that Jesus never mentioned to His disciples that His Holy Day was to be changed.//---jerry6593


Not strange at all, since they were Jews and Jesus was a Jew.

When Gentiles began to become followers of Christ, they had little or no experience with the "Sabbath". Jesus didn't teach the need to keep the Sabbath. In fact,(Mar 2:27)... He said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath
A Gentile, depending on the teachings of Jesus alone, might well conclude that keeping of the Jewish Sabbath was of minor importance. It wasn't mentioned in the great summary of the Commandments
that He gave in Mark 12:30 and 31.
---Donna66 on 12/20/10




Strange that Jesus never mentioned to His disciples that His Holy Day was to be changed.
---jerry6593 on 12/20/10
Even stranger since he expected his disciples to be faithful sabbath keepers in the future.
Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
---francis on 12/20/10


-kathr4453
In the wilderness the jews provoked God by not keeping his sabbath. Thus they were not allowed to enter his rest(Canaan)
---francis on 12/19/10
francis that is absolutely not true. The Promise of the land was UNCONDITIONAL having nothing to do with keeping or not keeping a sabbath. The Land was promised to Abraham, long before any sabbath was established through Moses Law.

Just as SALVATION today is unconditional except we too must believe/have FAITH to enter and take posession of. THIS is what the parallel means...to enter His rest was to ENTER into a PROMISE.

And that's also why Romans 9 has nothing to do with FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/10


Methodist - "The reason we observe the first day instead of the seventh is based on no positive command. One will search the Scriptures in vain for authority for changing from the seventh day to the first." Clovis G. Chappell, Ten Rules For Living. pg. 61

Baptist - Harold Lindsell, former editor of Christianity Today. said, "There is nothing in Scripture that requires us to keep Sunday rather than Saturday as a holy day." Christianity Today, November 5, 1976.

Episcopal - "The Bible commandment says on the seventh day thou shalt rest. That is Saturday. Nowhere in the Bible is it laid down that worship should be done on Sunday." Philip Carrington, Toronto Daily Star, October 26, 1949.
---francis on 12/20/10


//Strange that Jesus never mentioned to His disciples that His Holy Day was to be changed.

Not strange at all! It is very clear from Romans 14 that observance of the Jewish Sabbath, dietary laws, and other laws that were strictly regarded as Jewish were not not not not not required of Gentile converts.

And there is the testimony of the early church writers that the Sabbath observance was not not not not taught. That would indicate the Apostles and their immediate successors did not teach Sabbath observance.

Such Jewish laws would certainly have hindered the spread of the gospel and Christianity would have been viewed simply as another jewish sect.
---leej on 12/20/10


Lee: "The Puritans in creating the Westminster Confessions believed Christ changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday."

Strange that Jesus never mentioned to His disciples that His Holy Day was to be changed.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
---jerry6593 on 12/20/10




PROPHECY FULFILLED:
Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast (ROME) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,
Daniel 7:25 And he (ROME)shall ..think to change times and laws:

The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." "The Pope has authority and has often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap.

The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers. pg. 111, said, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."
---FRANCIS on 12/19/10


TWO RESTS are mentioned in hebrew 4.
One given by Joshua
One given by God after creation

The phrase REST IN THE LORD is not to be found n the NT. IT is found in the OT
Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him.

It means to TRUST and BELIEVE in God/ and Believe God.
Resting in God for those in the OT did not mean working on the sabbath.

Trusting In God and believing God neans keeping the sabbath.
See Eziekel 20, 2 Chronicles 36:21 and Nehemiah 13:18, Revealion 10:1, Isaiah 66:22-23, Matthew 24:20, Acts 15:21, Acts 13:42-44, Acts 16:13

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Eziekel 20: and Nehemiah 13:18
---francis on 12/19/10


-kathr4453
In the wilderness the jews provoked God by not keeping his sabbath. Thus they were not allowed to enter his rest(Canaan)
Ezekiel 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Hebrews 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Hebrews 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart, and they have not known my ways.
Hebrews 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
---francis on 12/19/10


Jerry //It is very clear those who advocate keeping a counterfeit, man-made sabbath instead of the only one sanctified by God Himself are the true children of Hagar.

The Puritans in creating the Westminster Confessions believed Christ changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. In that they fell in much the same trap as did the Pharisees in creating all kinds of rules & regulations regarding how the Sabbath was to be obeyed.

Calvin (more knowledgeable of the Scripture) concluded the Sabbath was abrogated.

Clearly it was NOT NOT NOT mandated by the early church at the Jerusalem Council, and it was not not not taught by any of early church writers.

Calvin has more backing of scripture for his conclusion.
---leej on 12/19/10


The idea came to the jews that having entered canaan and given rest by Joshua they did not have to keep the sabbath. This was the primary reason why they went indo idolatry and had to be exiles from the land.

Ezekiel 23:38 they have profaned my sabbaths.
2 Chronicles 36:21 until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
---francis on 12/19/10


It is very clear that those who advocate keeping a counterfeit, man-made sabbath instead of the only one sanctified by God Himself are the true children of Hagar.
---jerry6593 on 12/19/10


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It is very clear that those who advocate keeping the Jewish sabbath are the true children of Hagar - who represented that covenant made at Mt. Sinai. Gal. 4:24f

Fortunately, Francis, Jerry and others have failed to convince anyone on this forum that the Christian needs to observe laws that are not applicable to the Christian walk.

They fail miserably in trying to convince us from Scripture that the Jerusalem council mandated laws that were strictly Jewish to Gentile converts.

Fortunately their position represents the minority view as it has the least support either in Scripture or in church history.
---leej on 12/18/10


Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Hebrews 4:4 God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

BELIEVERS rest AS GOD DID. On the 7th day.
---FRANCIS on 12/18/10

francis, There is a difference between REST and entering INTO HIS REST.

If you have in fact entered into His rest, HIS FINISHED WORK, not your works, you would know that you cannot enter into Saturday.
---kathr4453 on 12/18/10


The workless are condemned, not saved.
---Eloy on 12/18/10


Psalms 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psalms 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. also Hebrews 4:3

Joshua 22:4 the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them:(THIS JOSHUA REST DID NOT REPLACE THE SABBATH)
Hebrews 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of ANOTHER DAY.
SEE Joshua 22:5
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Hebrews 4:4 God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

BELIEVERS rest AS GOD DID. On the 7th day.
---FRANCIS on 12/18/10


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Those who TRULY have entered into his rest do not STRIVE to force Calvinism on anyone.

Those STRIVING to force Calvinism on you have not entered His REST to begin with.

Their stiving to cause you to doubt, therefore causing UNREST in any believer who hs already ENTERED HIS REST.
---kathr4453 on 12/18/10


leej - "We need not strive to earn our salvation for that is strictly a gift from Jesus our Savior, not the law as you would proclaim."

God's Rest & Celebrations are also gifts. They can be tools that point men to the giver of salvation but are not a means of salvation. Therefore there is no striving involved.
---AG on 12/17/10


jerry6593: "Steveng: I agree that we are in the time of the end. But I have a problem with putting an exact time (15 years) on Jesus' return."

The word "about" is not an exact time. Did you figure out the meaning of the tree and the duration of generations?

jerry6593: "I hope it's a lot sooner than that."

Be patient.
---Steveng on 12/17/10


francis //Which rest do you think remains for the people of God?

Heb 4:3,10 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,' although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.... for whoever has entered (past tense) God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

We need not strive to earn our salvation for that is strictly a gift from Jesus our Savior, not the law as you would proclaim.
---leej on 12/17/10


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Circumcision was given because Abram did not believe in the promised son through his loins. That promised son was Jesus through which all nations would be blessed.

Once the messaih came and died, why should circumcision as faith in the ocmming messiah continue?

It ended at the cross, not in acts 15.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
---francis on 12/17/10


Hebrew 4 speak about two types of rest. the first given or spoken of by Joshua when they came into the promise land.
Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Joshua 22:4 And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them:

the other rest is the one sanctified by God after creation

Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Which rest do you think remains for the people of God?
---francis on 12/17/10


Events are moving along at a scary pace. More and more restrictions will be put on people. We are certainly tending towards a One World Government and simultaneously with that OneWorld Government will be the one world religion and that religion will be headed by the Antichrist and his sidekick the false prophet. All this in the very near future
---mima on 12/17/10


Steveng: I agree that we are in the time of the end. But I have a problem with putting an exact time (15 years) on Jesus' return. I hope it's a lot sooner than that.
---jerry6593 on 12/17/10


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jerry6593: "Steveng: "It's a lot closer than you think - say about fifteen years?"

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

Is your faith so weak to think it's closer than you think? It is true that we neither know the day nor the hour, but Jesus did gave us signs to look out for. Actually, there are three things to consider: one, the fig tree, two, how long is a generation and, three, the sign of the times.
---Steveng on 12/16/10


jerry6593, many christians don't want to believe that the time is short for one reason or another. Many fear the unknown. Many don't want to end their existance on earth. Most don't recognize that we are living in the end times BECAUSE they are living through it.
---Steveng on 12/16/10


AG//Where is it written that the OT laws were changed or even tweaked just a little bit???

Happy to get the easy questions to answer!

Circumcision was an OT law which if one was not physically circumcised, one could not be part of God's covenant people.Gen. 17:11, Jos. 5:2 (Even Moses had a problem as he did not circumcise his sons Ex. 4:25)
The requirement was nullifed in Acts 15

The 4th commandment referred back to the rest of God at Creation. Hebrews 4 tells us those that believe enter into that rest. Romans 14 states we need not observe any day as holy.

Christ 'tweaked' the commandments, such as if you look on a woman lustfully, you are guilty of adultery. He said a similar thing w/r/t murder.
---leej on 12/16/10


leej - "many of the OT laws were changed"

Where is it written that the OT laws were changed or even tweaked just a little bit???
Did the Father ever say that his instructions could be altered by another? Did the Son ever claim to alter any of the Father's instructions?
---AG on 12/16/10


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jerry //As you are well aware, the context of Mat 5:17,ff clearly shows that Christ did not abolish the Ten Commandments, rather, He fulfilled the requirement of the law (paid the price) by His sacrifice.

yes, we can agree, howbeit, many of the OT laws were changed. For instance, physically circumcision became something of the heart, and the OT Sabbath became the rest that those who believe enter into. Hebrews 4 is very clear on that issue as well as what we see adherence to the Jewish Sabbath was not taught in the early church.

Howbeit, of the over 600+ laws those that were strictly Jewish such as the civic and ceremonial laws were certainly not mandated to the church.


---leej on 12/16/10


The answer lies in the ancient hebrew concepts of "fulfillment" and "the law".
---AG on 12/16/10


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, We know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be Justified in God's sight: for by the law is the Knowledge of sin.


The law, though fulfilled in Christ, remains as a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be Justified by Faith. But after Faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster, b/c we are all God's Children by Faith in Christ.


Ref. Rom.3:19-20, Gal.3:24-26
---ShawnM.T. on 12/16/10


Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof
It is a WALLED CITY, lighted by the GLORY OF GOD. It does not need the light of sun, the glory of God is as or maybe brighter than the sun.

But this is limited to THE CITY. The CITY does not take up the entire earth.

elsewhere the sun and moon continue to shine:
Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
---francis on 12/16/10


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Steveng: "It's a lot closer than you think - say about fifteen years?"

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The new heaven and the new earth will not occur until 1000 years AFTER Jesus returns.
---jerry6593 on 12/16/10


francis, Revelation 21:23
The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

This Francis is the NEW. Also after the 1000 years and all is passed away to the New, there won't be anyone in FLESH either.

FLESH in scripture francis refers to man in the state he is now.

AND no dead carcass either. Isaiah and Zechariah describe the EARTHLY kingdom reign Before the New H/E.

The cross made it Possible for Christ to come as originally planned in ALL HIS Glory. Remember the first time He left His Glory behind.
---kathr4453 on 12/16/10


Lee: "Did Christ fulfilled all the law, or did He fulfill only part of it as the earth still remains?"

As you are well aware, the context of Mat 5:17,ff clearly shows that Christ did not abolish the Ten Commandments, rather, He fulfilled the requirement of the law (paid the price) by His sacrifice.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission.
---jerry6593 on 12/16/10


This verse Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Is the more likely connected to:
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

and these verses
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.


The righteous will witness the distruction of the wicked
---francis on 12/16/10


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what you need to understand is what christ did when he gave him self up, which was he was the last sacrifice for our sins back under the laws of moses if you sinned you would be killed or you would have to make sacrifices of animals for your sins under the LAW, what christ did was through GRACE you would no longer have to do such things as long as you repent and was sorry for the things you did and that you would do them again so by grace do you continue to sin no as the scripture says GOD FORBID so in short all christ did was take away the fact that you do NOT have to die for your sins and through him he showed us grace so we can repent the law still STANDS he was a breathing example of how to live by GRACE through the LAW
---jay on 12/16/10


Who said that there will be no moon in the new earth:
Isaiah 30:26 The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun..

ISAIAH 66 talk about the fate of the saved and unsaved. Yes the saved will come before God every new moon and every sabbath.

The text does not say that there will be dead bodies in the new earth.

COMPARE:
Isaiah 66 15-23 to Malachi 3:17-4:3

Malachi 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
---francis on 12/15/10


This is the Kingdom reign, we know the New Heaven and earth have no moons or dead carcases lying around!

Isaiah 66:22-24

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/10


//And this earth will not pass away until the 1000 years are over.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did Christ fulfilled all the law, or did He fulfill only part of it as the earth still remains?

Or is it more likely, the purpose of the law has changed as its functions now to reveal sin and man's need for the Savior? Romans 3:20-21

In Galatians we read that the law was but a guardian UNTIL we could be justified (declared righteous) by faith, but after that was accomplished, the believer is no longer under the law.

Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
---leej on 12/15/10


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//Remember that He and His entire audience were Commandment keepers (including the 4th one),...

yes, and the foremost advocates of commandment keeping were the Pharisees and the Saduccess and it was they that put Christ on the Cross.

What they did was evil, but that evil God permitted for His own glory that we who would believe would be saved, not by our own merits but on the merits of Jesus Himself.

Eph. 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
---leej on 12/15/10


It is only those who are considered righteous that will enter into the new heaven or new earth, not those who honk the law especially OT laws that are not applicable to the Christian.

For those who advocate righteousness by keeping the law, consider -

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.

For those who live by faith are considered righteous in the eyes of God.
---leej on 12/15/10


jerry6593: "I agree that the new heaven and earth will take place far into the future..,"

It's a lot closer than you think - say about fifteen years?
---Steveng on 12/15/10


kathr4453: "Scripture says SIN was not imputed to them, because there was no Law."

Do you not know the definition of "sanctified?"

What about the law that they could eat the fruit of every tree except from a certain tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
That sure sounds like a law to me.

And what about God's law was from the beginning?

Psalm 119:160
Isaiah 40:21
Isaiah 41:26
Isaiah 48:3-8
John 1:1
2 Peter 3:4
1 John 2:7
2 John 1:5
2 John 1:6
Revelation 1:8
---Steveng on 12/15/10


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so to say that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law while heaven and earth remain, is a clear directive to "keep it up."
---jerry6593 on 12/15/10

Exactly jerry, that is why the Kingdom reign is not the New Heaven and earth. And this earth will not pass away until the 1000 years are over.

A KING was promised under the Law. Not one jot or tittle will pass until Christ reigns as KING here on earth for 1000 years.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/10


Steveng, let me ask you. You did read romans 5 correct, where Paul separated these different TIMES.

Scripture says SIN was not imputed to them, because there was no Law.

Now,we see Cain KILLED Abel, but God could not kill Cain in return, as the Law of Moses would require.

And if the Law was inforce from Adam, I see no one put to death for not keeping the sabbath.

Can you explain? After the flood, God never said one word to Noah about any sabbath-keeping, but He did for the first time say not to kill.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/10


kathr: "That fulfillment will take place during the Kingdom Reign of Christ. THEN after that heaven and earth will pass away to the NEW."

I agree that the new heaven and earth will take place far into the future, but Jesus' words clearly command the the keeping of the Ten Commandments in the interim (TILL). Remember that He and His entire audience were Commandment keepers (including the 4th one), so to say that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law while heaven and earth remain, is a clear directive to "keep it up."
---jerry6593 on 12/15/10


kathr4453: "Adam to Moses was a dispensation...no Law,sin was not imputed , however DEATH fell upon all."

The Law of God was instilled in man from the beginning. The first law was, and is to this day and well into the future, to keep the Sabbath. The second law in the bible was directed toward Adam and Eve about not eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
---Steveng on 12/14/10


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Oh, and by the way, we are to keep all the commandments until the appearing of Jesus.

Jesus gave us one commandment that all the laws and of the prophets hang upon - love. Love encompasses all the ten commandments. The ten commandments encompasses all the 613 Mosaic Laws.

1 Timothy 6:14
2 Peter 3:2
1 John 2:3
1 John 2:4
1 John 3:22-24
1 John 5:3 (apparently, many of you are)
2 John 1:5
Revelation 12:17
Revelation 14:12
Revelation 22:14

How much more proof of keeping the commandments?
---Steveng on 12/14/10


//Rightly dividing the Word of God, also include rightly dividing dispensations.

Better yet, rightly dividing the Word of truth, also includes rightly dividing the Old Covenant from the New.

Adventists have the problem of believing the New Covenant is but a re-hash of the Old, ignoring the fact that the over 600 laws found in the OT have no reflection in the New Testament.

2Ti 2:15NLT Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth.
---leej on 12/14/10


Francis - while the term "moral law" is not found in the Bible, in fact the Bible never makes any distinctions as to types of law(moral, civil, ceremonial),it generally involves right and wrong conduct and how individual people should behave.

It is also something that is universal in scope as we read in Romans 2,14 that the Gentiles fulfilled the requirements of the law simply by following their conscience.

(Of course, this testifies against those who promote the Jewish sabbath as the Gentiles did not not not observe the Jewish Sabbath- something that apparently is not not a moral law).
---leej on 12/14/10


jerry, Under the Law was also the Promise of a KING. Heaven and earth will not pass until ALL is fulfilled. That fulfillment will take place during the Kingdom Reign of Christ. THEN after that heaven and earth will pass away to the NEW.

The LAW of the Kingdom which is the Kingdom reign will again be under sabbath- keeping. This is what Paul tells us in colossians 2. WE, under grace are not under Moses Law or Kingdom Law, where the sabbath is a shaddow OF THINGS TO Come...

Those who undertand dispensations will recognize this to be true.

Rightly dividing the Word of God, also include rightly dividing dispensations.

Many even then confused the Gospel of Grace with the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Paul rebuked them.
---kathr4453 on 12/14/10


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mima //question, do you consider yourself under the law?

My position is really that expressed in the Westminister Confessions XIX,VI.

Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned,yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others, in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly,discovering also the sinful
pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives,so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.
---leej on 12/14/10


//Does the following verses imply that lawkeepers(those under the law) cannot become sons? Galatians 4:4-5

While those verses specifically do not say lawkeepers cannot become sons, the later verses do as they speak of the sons of Hagar (born of the flesh 4:29)as the lawkeepers who advocate adherence to the Mt. Sinai law, as the ones who persecute those born of the promise.
---leej on 12/14/10


Does the following verses imply that lawkeepers(those under the law) cannot become sons?

Galatians 4:4-5
"But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

question, do you consider yourself under the law?
---mima on 12/14/10


Actually the courts do make a distinction in the law. A man will go to prison for murder or stealing but not for adultery or coveting unless it leads to murder or stealing.
---Linda on 12/14/10


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Again, you really did not read my post as I clearly stated the believer is not under the law but has an obligation to moral law. ---leej on 12/14/10

Where in the Bible do you see the phrase MORAL LAW?

The entire law of God is the MORAL LAW.

4 speaks about Moral obligation to GOD, and 6 speak about moral obligation to neighbour
---francis on 12/14/10


Some Law! I can just see our courts saying that the law only applies to some of you, but not to others. Adultery is OK for you, but not for me. Yeah, great plan! No confusion there!
---jerry6593 on 12/14/10

You misunderstand Jerry, all have been judged equally even Christians except an innocent man was convicted and sentenced in their place. No True holy ghost filled Christian wakes up and says to 'I'll go out fornicating today just because I can.' A changed heart chases new desires and has a new vision for life, to be like Christ. Sin is not the objective.
---Pharisee on 12/14/10


//Some Law! I can just see our courts saying that the law only applies to some of you, but not to others. Adultery is OK for you, but not for me. Yeah, great plan! No confusion there!
---jerry6593 on 12/14/10

Again, you really did not read my post as I clearly stated the believer is not under the law but has an obligation to moral law. You probably do not realize it but adultery - perhaps your favorite pastime, is a moral law to which all have an obligation to.

Like a festering sore on your head is the verses -

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. Gal. 4:4-5
---leej on 12/14/10


Both are NOT contraditory.

Jesus took upon Himself the Law and nail it to the cross, he said "It is Finish" In other words the Law has been fulfilled. Now Jesus The Christ is the Law (in a sense the carrier of the Law). It is a misconception that G-d change his mind about the law.
Jesus said it best. He did not come to abolish it, but to fulfill it. And every letter of the law MUST be fulfill. We now give Glory to the One who fulfill it and holds it until eternity. If he didn't hold the law we would cease to exist.

So yes, The Law still exist as commanded by G-d. Nothing changed concerning its importance. Man failed to uphold it, but Jesus did not.

The Law is G-d, it must be kept to the absolute for Eternity!
---John on 12/13/10


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Lee: "So yes,jerry the law remains but has a different function to the believer and the unbeliever."

Some Law! I can just see our courts saying that the law only applies to some of you, but not to others. Adultery is OK for you, but not for me. Yeah, great plan! No confusion there!
---jerry6593 on 12/14/10


It is strictly a mater of selection. God Chose some and Rejected others. Christ crucifiction on the cross paid the price for God' chosen elect to enter God's family.

This is the most exclusive group any where, it was by invitation only and new members are not being accepted.
---Blogger9211 on 12/13/10


I guess this will be another "go to church on Saturday" blog.
---Rod4Him on 12/13/10


The law has to remain in effect because it's what those who have not received God's forgiveness will be judged by. To those who have been forgiven the requirements of the law have been met by the one singular perfect life that fulfilled it.

The part of your question "what are we doing here" I don't understand, there are many who have not received Christ, and believe it or not, some don't know the message of the gospel. If you share your faith enough you'll find some who have no idea.
---Pharisee on 12/13/10


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Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

While we are not under the law, there is still an obligation to law especially moral law as such behavior pleases God and is for our own benefit.

For the unsaved, the law condemns, but for the Christian it is but a guide to our understanding of what should constitutes our walk with Christ as the law reflects the hoiness that is in God.

So yes,jerry the law remains but has a different function to the believer and the unbeliever.
---leej on 12/13/10


Jesus did NOT say "Till heaven and earth pass" - you have taken a part of the sentence out of context. He said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

IF the law didn't end (fulfilled), then you can't even change one jot or one tittle, therefore, we are still under all 613 laws.

Can't change tithing from crops and animals to income. Must continue to kill disobedient children. Etc. etc.
---Gary on 12/13/10


The law remains for those who will not receive grace.---mima on 12/13/10
Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
I wonder of Moses and Noah had to keep the laws of God, since they both accepted GRACE?
---francis on 12/13/10


"All" was not fulfilled at the cross, but only Christ's mission and all that he came to earth to do was fulfilled at the cross. Christ did not come to reestablish the o.t. laws, nor to establish lawlessness or anarchy, but Christ our Liberator came to give us a higher law and his new law which sets us free from the ot. law and ministry of death. "Think not that I came to undo the law or the Prophets: I came not to undo the law, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass, one mandate or one point will not fail from the law, until all happen." Mt.5:17,18. When Christ came to earth he fulfilled precisely that what was written about him in the law and the Prophets.
---Eloy on 12/13/10


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"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure,

Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11

God Almighty from eternity has decided the number only known to Him, those whom He will save and destroy. And until that number is fulfilled, the world will continue to bring forth the vessels of honor and dishonor.
---christan on 12/13/10


-- Jerry :

Brother, We're still here to spread the Gospel while Christ prepares a place for us among our Heavenly Father's mansion, then He will come again and receive us unto Himself. John 14:2-3

The law's purpose(Rom.3:19) for remaining is as a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be Justified by Faith. But after Faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster, b/c we are all God's Children by Faith in Christ.(Gal.3:24-26)

Jerry, What Christ said was "one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law". The law still remains b/c it has a purpose, but now that all has been fulfilled in Christ, the jot/tittle which has passed is that all are under the law !!!
---Shawn.M.T. on 12/13/10


I have seen many many blogs about THE LAW. Very few people can make a difference between the LAW of God and the law of Moses.

So let me help those who do not know what they do not know.

Jeremiah 7:22 For I SPAKE NOT unto your fathers, NOR COMMANDED THEM in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

IF GOD DID NOT COMMAND THEM TO SACRIFICE WHOSE LAW WERE THEY FOLLOWING?

Deuteronomy 5:22 These words THE LORD SPAKE unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and HE ADDED NO MORE. And HE WROTE them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
---francis on 12/13/10


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