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Biblical To Wear Outfits

Is it Biblical to wear certain outfits if you are a minister of the gospel? I would like to know why some groups such as Catholic or Orthodox wear robes, etc.

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 ---KarenD on 12/17/10
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BTW, in this discussion of "outfits", is it ecclesiastical vesture that is being discussed?

Or is it usual clerical street attire--that is, the so-called clerical collar?

Maybe if this were settled, we could understand each other better.
---Cluny on 12/27/10


The only time I have a problem with outfits is when some so-called preacher has a proud spirit and thinks it makes him important.
I have known a few and the word says any man that thinks himself to something when he is nothing deceives himself.
The calling comes from God who blesses it and an outfit is useless when the person is heeding the wrong spirit.
---Frank on 12/27/10


Is it Biblical to wear certain outfits if you are a minister of the gospel? I would like to know why some groups such as Catholic or Orthodox wear robes, etc.

BIBLE SAYS:
Exodus 28:4 And these [are] the garments which they shall make, a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

Seems God has no issues with " outfits."
---francis on 12/24/10


BTW, "Theotokos" properly means "God Birthgiver" and not "God bearer", as there is a completely different word for this latter term: "Theophoros".
---Cluny on 12/24/10


\\Now we all know the origin of Marian worship and the doctrine of the immaculate conception.
---leej on 12/24/10\\

I've been waiting for someone to mention this.

Many people think that "immaculate conception" refers to the virginal conception of Christ--and therefore think that it also means that the Virgin Mary was born of a virginal conception.

Jack Chick spreads this falsehood.

"Immaculate Conception," as dogmatized by Pius IX, means that the Virgin Mary's body was formed according to the ordinary laws of nature, but her soul was preserved free of all stain of original sin in anticipation of the merits of Christ.

Orthodoxy does not accept this teaching. Why is off this blog's topic.
---Cluny on 12/24/10




//Theotokos is a theological definition that is used as a title.

Theotokos (Gr. God-bearer) A term used in the ancient church for Mary as the "mother of God". It was used at the Councils of Ephesus (431) and Chalcedon (451) to affirm the deity of Jesus Christ. Because Jesus had 2 natures, it was permissible to speak of Mary as 'God-bearer' since the human Jesus was also the divine Jesus. Westminster Dict of Theo terms.

Now we all know the origin of Marian worship and the doctrine of the immaculate conception.
---leej on 12/24/10


\\Well we know from Jesus own mouth he had no where to lay his head...SO I doubt He shopped at Tommy Hilfiger.\\

And this relates to the subject of this blog just how?

In any case, Tommy Hilfiger didn't exist 2000 years ago.
---Cluny on 12/24/10


\\**Cluny, then why is it the GREEK TITLE of Mary?
**\\

Theotokos is a theological definition that is used as a title.

It's about Who JESUS is ultimately.
---Cluny on 12/24/10


Well we know from Jesus own mouth he had no where to lay his head...SO I doubt He shopped at Tommy Hilfiger. Jesus was not a High Priest as he walked on earth...before His death.

Today as the ONLY High Priest who alone make intercession for our sin, has the only authority to wear any garb separating Himself from sinners.

The ONLY thing we are asked to wear in the whole armour OF God!!
---kathr4453 on 12/24/10


\\Question, do the following verses speak against special outfits for ministers of the Gospel?\\

Nope. Not at all. Jesus was talking about JEWS. The phylacteries were what ALL pious male Jews wore at morning prayer.

I'm willing to bet that the cassock and riassa of an Orthodox priest look more like what Jesus and the Apostles wore than what your preachers wear, mima.

**Cluny, then why is it the GREEK TITLE of Mary?
**

I don't understand your question. Can you rephrase it?

**Along with her thousand other titles.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/10**

And what "thousands of other titles"? (In these, can you limit yourself to ORTHODOX titles?)
---Cluny on 12/24/10




Perhaps the most spiritual person I have ever encountered was a street preacher in Georgetown Barbados. This man appeared to be in dire circumstances, his clothes were in terrible condition, he didn't have any shoes, he was holding a Bible and preaching to cars at an intersection in the city. When I offered him some money he said, Sir the gospel is not for sale!!!
The man had a certain aura about him and you knew he was God's man!!!
---mima on 12/24/10


Or maybe uses dress as a motive to have the chief seats.

Ministers of the Gospel are not placed above another in the Body of Christ. Aren't we all to be in submission to one another, and Christ is head of the Church.

Do those who have the gift of Prophesy dress any different than another?
---kathr4453 on 12/23/10


Mima-
I think Matthew 23:5-6, speaks to motive rather than dress.
"make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments" sounds as if they were embellishing their usual manner of dress in order to draw attention to themselves. Sounds like it's a sign of their real motive, i.e. to have the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues ,"
---Donna66 on 12/23/10


Question, do the following verses speak against special outfits for ministers of the Gospel?

Matthew 23:5-6,
"But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,"
---mima on 12/23/10


Cluny, then why is it the GREEK TITLE of Mary? Along with her thousand other titles.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/10


\\Cluny, are you suggesting Mary gave Jesus His divine/GOD nature?

Or did that come from His Father?\\

I've already answered that question below.

What Jesus experienced in His human nature, he also experienced in His divine nature.

**I think it is ironic (maybe revealing) that the Council of Ephesus, concerning the theotokos, was held in a city which had a long history of female worship.**

Merely coincidental, as the Bishops at the council came from all over, not just from around Ephesus.

The term THEOTOKOS is really about who JESUS is.
---Cluny on 12/23/10


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//It means that Mary is NOT the mother of a mere human nature,Cluny//

Cluny, are you suggesting Mary gave Jesus His divine/GOD nature?

Or did that come from His Father?
---kathr4453 on 12/23/10


To be fair to Nestorius, his complaint about the usage of Theotokos was that it would indicate that Jesus was divine but not human. Nestorius wanted to keep a distinction between His divinity and humanity. How different people understood the meaning of words were a great part of church dissentions.

This controversy, the divinity and humanity and how to explain it, has caused much grief for hundreds of years.

I think it is ironic (maybe revealing) that the Council of Ephesus, concerning the theotokos, was held in a city which had a long history of female worship.
---Rod4Him on 12/23/10


\\Mary should be called Christotokos, meaning "Birth-giver of Christ," to restrict her role to the mother of Christ's humanity only and not his divine nature.\\

This is PRECISELY the heresy of Nestorius.

He made a separation between "Jesus" and "Christ."

Did you actually READ what I said about the meaning of Theotokos--and what it does NOT mean?

FWIW, the Assyrian Church of the East (erstwhile Nestorians) have officially said that "Mother of Christ our God" means EXACTLY the same thing as "Theotokos."

You believe what you want to believe, kathr.

I'll believe the Bible.
---Cluny on 12/22/10


Alan,
Mary should be called Christotokos, meaning "Birth-giver of Christ," to restrict her role to the mother of Christ's humanity only and not his divine nature.

Theotokos means Mother of God.

Cluny knew exactly what he meant when using the term Theotokos rather than Christotokos, as this has been an issue for hundreds of years.
---kathr4453 on 12/22/10


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Amen Kath!
John chapter one certainly testifies to that, too!!
Before Jesus became flesh, He was the word..GOD.
Before Jesus became flesh he was not the son. He was and is God.
So how can Mary truly be the mother of the everlasting God that actually created Mary in her mother's womb?
Makes absolutely no sense at all, does it?
---ginger on 12/22/10


\\BUT, since Jesus is God, and He was God whilst He walked this planet 2000 yearsa go, and so they feel justified o say that she was God's mother ....thus confusing almost everyone, including a large number of their own members!!!\\

Catholics, Orthodox, and non-Chalcedonians are not confused by it at ll, though many Protestants may be.

"Theotokos" NEVER meant "progenitrix of the divine nature". It means that Mary is NOT the mother of a mere human nature, but of a PERSON Who is both God and Man. I gave the scriptural reasons for it, but kathr doesn't accept sound doctrine.

BTW--the Byzantine mitre is a turban the ladies of the altar guild got hold of.
---Cluny on 12/22/10


Kathr ... This may go on and on and on ... it has before!

The RC and Orthodox churches seem to agree that Mary was mother of the Jesus that appeared here 2000 years ago.

They agree, I think , that Mary is not mother of the eternal God ... if she was. she would be older than God!

BUT, since Jesus is God, and He was God whilst He walked this planet 2000 yearsa go, and so they feel justified o say that she was God's mother ....thus confusing almost everyone, including a large number of their own members!!!
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/22/10


There are irreconcilable problems with the unscriptural title given to Mary as mother of God.

The Word has always been God from the very beginning who became man when born in Bethlehem.

Jesus only got his humanity from Mary and, therefore, she cant be correctly labeled Mother of God. The aforementioned syllogism is in error.

The Mary of Catholicism is not the Mary of the Bible.
---kathr4453 on 12/22/10


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\\are your headdresses after teh Levitical priesthood, or sometthing you made up yourselves. I see they have 4 IKONS on them...one symbolizing Mary as the MOTHER OF GOD!!!\\

Who else would Mary be, because Who else is Jesus but God and Man in one Person?

It's quite Biblical to call Mary Mother of God (Theotokos). After all, inspired by, the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth called her "Mother of my Lord"--literally Mother of YHVH. Luke 1.

Who else is Lord BUT God?
---Cluny on 12/22/10


Cluny,


kathr said:
"And no one wore a crown on their head either."

Ignatius replied:

Yes, they did (Exod 28:36-38, 39:30, 31). Did you missed those Scriptures or you just never read them?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/18/10

So, you tell me Cluny,

are your headdresses after teh Levitical priesthood, or sometthing you made up yourselves. I see they have 4 IKONS on them...one symbolizing Mary as the MOTHER OF GOD!!!

I stated earlier, Peter or Paul never wore anything of the such!

Yet you all claim to be the only PURE ones from the original Apostles.
---kathr4453 on 12/22/10


\\Cluny, OK, please tell us what the ORTHODOX Crown looks like and what it represents.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/10\\

There's no such thing as Orthodox crowns.

By "crown", are you trying to say "mitre"?
---Cluny on 12/21/10


Cluny, OK, please tell us what the ORTHODOX Crown looks like and what it represents.
---kathr4453 on 12/21/10


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kathr, the Papal tiara was always a sign of SECULAR authority, and wasn't adopted until Clement IV, the first Avignon pope.

And Ignatius and I are ORTHODOX, the Church that the Pope left in 1054.
---Cluny on 12/20/10


Cluny, the point was, Igantius insisted that these ornate CROWNS are what the Leviitical priesthood wore making it OK for your popes bishops priests to wear too.

I simply objected and gave scripture as to why.

So what is Your point?

Your CROWNS are fashioned after Emporers. As a matter of fact the THREE Tier Crown worn by the Popes until John set his down, was to show authority over Kings and Emporers. Kings wore ONE tier, Emporers wore two tier, and the Popes wore a three tier. CROWN.

Absolutely nothing to do with any Levitical Priesthood to begin with.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/10


\\Only the PLATE was made of Gold, fastened to the bonnet made of fine linen.
---kathr4453 on 12/19/10\\

And your point is......?????

You may not know that the English word "priest" comes from the Greek word "presbyteros", which was the name for the second order of Christian ministry, between deacon and bishop.

Most languages make a distiction between "presbyteros" and "priest", such as Greek "presbyteros" and "ierevs".

Alas, English does not.
---Cluny on 12/19/10


Please post.

Exodus 39:28-31
28And a mitre of fine linen, and goodly bonnets of fine linen, and linen breeches of fine twined linen,

29And a girdle of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, of needlework, as the LORD commanded Moses.

30And they made the plate of the holy crown of pure gold, and wrote upon it a writing, like to the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.

31And they tied unto it a lace of blue, to fasten it on high upon the mitre, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Only the PLATE was made of Gold, fastened to the bonnet made of fine linen.
---kathr4453 on 12/19/10


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Ignatius,

The High Priest(OT) wore a Mitznefet translated in English "mitre", which was wound around the head to form a broad, flat-topped turban. Attached to it was Gold plate inscribed "Holiness to God" Exodus 39:14-30 And in no way represents teh crowns worn today modeled after Emperors.

And you now do admit you believe yourselves Priests after the Levitical priesthood.

JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY HIGH PRIEST!

That is why the symbolism of the woman who rides the beast is accociated with MOCK Christianity....

The CROWN of a Christian will be given to us personally by Jesus Christ. Paul said., there is now laid up a Crown for me....he never wore one here! Nor did Peter!
---kathr4453 on 12/19/10


"I don't see any teaching from Paul or Peter or James on dress codes for bishops and pastors." (kathr)

While it is true that they do no mention any clerical vestments directly, they never forbade them either. It works both ways Kathr.

"This certainly is mens tradition."

It is not. It has it's roots in the Judaism, God-ordained.

"And no one wore a crown on their head either."

Yes, they did (Exod 28:36-38, 39:30, 31). Did you missed those Scriptures or you just never read them?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/18/10


the bible say that if a man even look upon a woman and lust...

it also says to not cause your brothers to sin...

there is a large group out there that does not believe in Jesus, but they dress in such a way, they in no way tempt a man and a man can look at them every which way but cannot muster a lustful response.

BUT, if you so much as mention modesty or conservatism in dress, Christian women are in full revolt mode.
---aka on 12/18/10


\\Even in OT Israel there was NOT different ranks with different outfits among the levitical priesthood. And no one wore a crown on their head either.
---kathr4453 on 12/18/10\\

Obviously, kathr, you've not read what the Bible actually says on the subject.

And if by "crown", you're letting fly at the Roman Catholic Church, nobody there wears one either.

The Western Mitre represents the "horns of both Testaments" to scare the devil, according to the prayer at its imposition on the new bishop's head.
---Cluny on 12/18/10


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\\I don't see any teaching from Paul or Peter or James on dress codes for bishops and pastors.\\

I meant to ask you, kathr--

Do you follow St. Paul's dress code about women covering their heads when they pray?
---Cluny on 12/18/10


I don't see any teaching from Paul or Peter or James on dress codes for bishops and pastors.

This certainly is mens tradition.

As far as the RCC and all the different outfits, isn't it showing who is a Cardnal, or Bishop or Pope etc.
Even in OT Israel there was NOT different ranks with different outfits among the levitical priesthood. And no one wore a crown on their head either.
---kathr4453 on 12/18/10


\\Bishop Eddie Long wears one too. Hummm! What do they all have in common?
So much for Robes!
---kathr4453 on 12/18/10\\

What they have in common, I hope, is faith in Christ.

What Eddie Long and most Protestant clergy wear would not be ecclesiastical vestments properly considered (chasuble, alb, stoles, or their eastern equivalents). Rather, it is ACADEMIC dress, a style set by Martin Luther.
---Cluny on 12/18/10


I wonder if Mima dressed himself up with he goes to his church. Or perhaps Mima dress like the various hunter gatherer groups?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/18/10


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---KarenD the proper terminology would be "Pomp and circumstance"!!!
---mima on 12/18/10


Well, it says, "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3) So, if leaders are to be "examples", why would they dress in a way to show they are so different than us? Examples are ones doing what is for all of us to follow, I consider.

But ones understand that the priestly robes are symbolic, including with different colors for different religious times and events. For example, purple can mean royalty or mourning. As Jesus people, we all are royal, His "royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9). So, His "examples" are for all of us.
---Bill_willa6969 on 12/18/10


Bishop Eddie Long wears one too. Hummm! What do they all have in common?
So much for Robes!
---kathr4453 on 12/18/10


KarenD:

I have attended both Assemblies of God and Catholic churches. I have MY opinions of both denomination's dress codes.

The AOG churches seem to just let their Pastors wear what most peope wear: Suits, Ties, etc. for Men, and Dresses, Skirts, etc. for Women. Well-Dressed and Acceptable to others.

The Catholic church has dress codes that are difficult to understand. I think that they just go with what their Pope, Cardinal, Archbishop, Bishops, etc. VOTE and DECIDE is correct. I think that they want their Leaders to "Stand Out" in public. Man-Made traditions?

Anyway, I believe that GOD is more concerned with our HEARTS for HIM, than our DRESS codes. The important thing is that you wear something.
---Sag on 12/18/10


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\\Not trying to prove anything Biblical or non-Biblical. \\

Then why did you phrase your original post the way you did? It actually sounds like the typical attack question here.

\\Just wanting to know why these garments are worn and why.
---KarenD on 12/17/10\\

If that's really what you want to know, then read what Ignatius suggested.
---Cluny on 12/18/10


NonChristians and false religions will wear all manner of dazzle, for their attention is not exalting Christ, but self.
---Eloy on 12/18/10


Not trying to prove anything Biblical or non-Biblical. Just wanting to know why these garments are worn and why.
---KarenD on 12/17/10


If the robes are worn as their outfit all day everyday and THAT is their custom then who cares

If a suit or other outfit is worn under the robe than it is OBVIOUS they have started their own tradition to be separate from their flock

in these cases SIMPLY pious men and no rational thinking human would follow a pious man regardless of religious association?

one cannot be separate YET claim to be ONE
---Rhonda on 12/17/10


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\\Easy!

De 22:5 A woman shall not wear a mans garment, nor shall a man put on a womans cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.
---leej on 12/17/10\\

You don't think that ecclesiastical vestments were designed to be worn by women, do you?

Or was this your idea of being witty?

If so, you were half right.

BTW--one of the function of the traditional vestments is to ensure the minister becomes anonymous and disappears into his ministry.
---Cluny on 12/17/10


Karen D,

There is a article online that might interest you "The Symbolism of Vestments by Reader Phillip Blyth". The Orthodox Church in America website has a article about it under "The Orthodox Faith".

Cluny made a interesting point. A lot of celerical vestments that are in Orthodoxy are simply stylizations of everyday "streetwear" of Apostolic times (the garments of ancient Greece and Rome). Others elements (predominately the vestments unique to bishops) came from the Byzantine Imperial Court. They were simply "Christianize" if you will.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/17/10


leej-- I don't care about clerical vestments one way or the other...but have you noted how God commanded the Jewish priests to dress?
(It wasn't exactly as a women of the day dressed, but todays macho Christian might consider it bit "girly")
---Donna66 on 12/17/10


Men's wear in bible times were tunics and cloaks, both were open at the bottom, like a dress.

If one is wearing garments for show, that may be another issue.
---Rod4Him on 12/18/10


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pleeeease. We are told to dress modestly. What does it matter if you are a born again christian. People who wear robes want to be identified with certain denominations. I just want to be identified as being a child of the King.
---shira3877 on 12/17/10


//just how do you intended to prove that the custom of clerical vestments is UNBIBLICAL on the basis of Biblical data,

Easy!

De 22:5 A woman shall not wear a mans garment, nor shall a man put on a womans cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.
---leej on 12/17/10


BTW--just how do you intended to prove that the custom of clerical vestments is UNBIBLICAL on the basis of Biblical data, KarenD?

You'll have a hard time doing so.
---Cluny on 12/17/10


Traditional ecclesiastical vestments worn by pre-Reformation churches are derived from what EVERYONE wore 2000 years ago, though after the ladies of the altar guild got hold of it.

Those worn in most Protestant churches are mostly academic dress.

Once upon a time a Church of Christ member criticized an Orthodox monk for his "levitical robe. Jesus and the Apostles didn't dress differently from others." The monk replied, "You're right. They wore three-piece suits. I'll bet that my cassock looks more like what Jesus and the Apostles wore than what your preacher wears."
---Cluny on 12/17/10


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It is not just Latin/Eastern Catholics, and the Eastern Churches (Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Armenian, etc) but many within Protestant sects (Lutherans, Baptist, Pentecostals, Methodists, etc) also retain this custom (although the exact vestments differ in each).

The custom traces it's roots in the Old Testament Judaism, which was later adapted by the Church. One such book that might interest you will be Church Vestments: Their Origin and Development by Herbert Noris.

However, it must be noted that the "outfit doesn't make the man". Those in the clergy must exhibit spiritual fruits, or else they risk becoming like the pharisees, wearing clerical vestments, but inside full of dead bones.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/17/10


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