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Thousand Year Reign Of Christ

"The premillennial view says there will be a literal thousand-year reign on the earth by Jesus from Jerusalem to fulfill all the unfulfilled prophecies and covenants made to the natural descendants of Jacob." Do you believe the same? Why or why not?

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 ---mima on 12/21/10
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Richard- Jehovah's Witnesses are one of the only Christian religions who believe Jesus Christ to be 'the SON of God'. Unlike trinitarian organisations who fail to understand why Jesus is called 'Christ, the Son of God'. The lost believe God is Christ.

Elder- you haven't answered any of my questions. You are unable to because you teach what is contrary to scripture. For example, you claim the 144,000 are Jewish when Rev.14:3,4 says otherwise.

I've never said the 144,000 and the 'Great Crowd' are the same. This is a ridiculous statement and reveals you are running out of arguments. They are 'one flock under one shepherd'- Jo.10:16- 'one' in the sense of being 'Christian'. 144,000 in heaven, the 'Great Crowd' on earth- Rev.7:4,9.
---David8318 on 12/31/10

Those who become believers during the tribulation do so from what they have heard or read before the tribulation begins, and it they perpetuate themselves in the same manner.(From Bibles or hand-me-down information. And of course the Church can not be here during the tribulation since it would have to take the mark of the beast(and that condemns all who take it to hell).
---mima on 12/30/10

The blood bought church has "gone up" the elect of Israel are sealed in their foreheads and probably raptured to escape the wrath of JUDGEMENT (armageddon for example) then many will believe and face the persecution to follow...probably to the death of be-heading....the rest will burn,---no flesh enters the millenium!...
---richard on 12/30/10

trib begins with peace deal between Israel and Anti-christ.Deal broken at 3 1/2 years...the rest is horrendous...first half "known as" trib,second half "known as" great trib...J.W.s are lost if they dont know Jesus as "THE SON OF GOD"....
---richard on 12/30/10

Elder has difficulty believing what the Bible teaches and promotes his own views.

Elder states- 'The 144,000 are not sealed' (12/29/10). However, the Bible teaches- 'And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000.' Rev.7:4.

Elder states- the 144,000 are, 'Jewish virgins that preach the Gospel during the tribulation.' (12/24/10). However, the Bible teaches the 144,000 are not exclusively Jewish but are 'bought from the earth... These were bought from among mankind'- Rev.14:3,4.

Elder states regarding the 'anointing' and 'sealing' of Christians by HolySpirit- 'It only applies to the Church Age Saints.' (12/29/10) Elder thus believes 'born again' Christians existed only during what he calls 'the Church age'.
---David8318 on 12/30/10

Elder believes the 'anointing' and 'sealing' of Christians (2 Cor.1:21,22) only applies to what he terms, 'Church Age Saints'.

This is not a Bible expression or teaching. Rather, Christians 'born again of HolySpirit' have been chosen from Pentecost 33CE down to this day.

Paul said regarding these 'anointed' Christians- 'But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem.'- Heb.12:22.

John was given further details of these 'anointed' and 'sealed' Christians who approach a Mount Zion- 'And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him 144,000'.- Rev.14:1.

Christ & 144,000 make up Jehovah's heavenly government or 'Kingdom of the Heavens'.- Matt.13:24-47.
---David8318 on 12/30/10

12/29/10 - Since the church is here during the tribulation -

The people that are save in end time is the spiritual church.Out side the denominations, The denominations are over run with falses gospels.

REVELATION 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven say, come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

REVELATION 3:9 Behold I will make them of the synagogue of satan -------------

2 CORINTHIANS 11:14 And no marvel: for satan himself is tranformed into a angel of light.
11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the minsters of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works

---RICHARD on 12/30/10

David I answered your questions time and again. You just don't like the answers that show the truth. Now you post foolishness. There are many tribulations only one Jacob's trouble great tribulation.
You tried to say that the great crowd and the 144,000 are the same group. Again they are not. That was your question. Stop your speculation and post some truth. You have not answered my questions at all so I believe you do not know what you are talking about.
Cluny said, "How can that be since the Church is here during the Tribulation?"
Oh ye of great swelling words and little understanding.
If what you say were true then where and when does the Bema Judgement take place?
---Elder on 12/30/10

\\The Holy Spirit has left that ministry and no longer comes into believers during the Tribulation.\\

How can that be since the Church is here during the Tribulation?
---Cluny on 12/29/10

So Elder, judging by your inability to provide any counter-argument to Rev.14:3,4 which states clearly the 144,000 are 'bought from the earth... These were bought from among mankind' we can take it that you've abandoned your view the 144,000 are Jewish saved 'preachers of the Gospel during the Tribulation' people.

You've also been forced to acknowledge by your silence that according to Matt.25:31, the 'Great Crowd' of 'other sheep' do not have to be in heaven to be standing before Christ's throne- Rev.7:15.

But why is it you continue to believe there are 2 'Great Tribulations'? Your inability to equate Jesus' words at Mt.24:21 and Rev.7:14 mean you do believe there are 2 'Great Tribulations'.
---David8318 on 12/30/10

David every Church Age Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit. The 144,000 are not Church Age Christians. The Holy Spirit has left that ministry and no longer comes into believers during the Tribulation. The 144,000 are not sealed in the sense that the Church Age Saints are.
I told you that Matt 24 & 25 was about the 2nd coming and Tribulation. I am glad you finally realized that.
II Cor 1:21-22 is an "earnest" of the Holy Spirit. This is a Real Estate term. It is a "down payment" if you will. It is assurance that God will do what He said. It only applies to the Church Age Saints.
Since you don't accept Dispensational Truth, tell me are we in the Old Testament age or the New Testament age?
---Elder on 12/29/10

Micha9344- I do not believe Peter was one of the '24 elders' group of 144,000 at the point in time Jesus spoke at Luke 22 for the following reasons.

Importantly, HolySpirit was not poured out on the disciples as reported at Acts 2 until some 52 days after the events of Luke 22. Thus, Peter at Luke 22 has not yet been 'anointed' and 'sealed' by the HolySpirit yet (Eph.1:13,14). And in Luke 22:31 onward, Jesus warns his disciples (Peter included) to remain faithful. Thus, their 'sealing' as at Luke 22 was not yet given or guaranteed.

HolySpirit was poured out from Pentecost 33CE onward- Acts 2- and Christians began to be 'anointed' and 'sealed'- 2 Cor.1:21,22. The number required to complete the symbolic '24 elders' total '144,000'.
---David8318 on 12/29/10

Elder, I'm still interested to know why you believe the 144,000 are exclusively Jewish saved "preachers of the Gospel during the Tribulation" people, when Rev.14:3,4 explicitly states the 144,000 are 'bought from the earth... These were bought from among mankind'?

The 'Great Crowd' are the ones who survive the 'Gt.Tribulation'. The Great Crowd are the ones under discussion from verse 9. John was already familiar with the HolySpirit 'sealing' Christians with the hope of immortality in heaven. However, John is unfamiliar with the 'Great Crowd' seen after the 144,000 because he is unable to answer 'Who are they?' (7:13). He is told at 7:14- 'These (the 'Great Crowd') are the ones that come out of the great tribulation'.
---David8318 on 12/29/10

Elder, your comments 12/28/10 raise further questions:

'Your group in Matt 24 comes out of the millennium.' What group, and where in Matthew 24 does it speak of the Millennium?

'In Matt 24 Jesus... explained the 2nd coming.' Jesus also described the 'Great Tribulation' at Mt.24:21. Do you believe this is the same 'Gt.Tribulation' at Rev.7:14, or do you believe there are 2 'Gt.Tribulations'?

'Numbers 1 is the same tribes with the exception of Dan.' Really? There never was a tribe of Joseph and the tribe of Ephraim as well as Dan are not included in Rev.7. The Levites were not one of the 12 tribes.

'Dan became involved in idol/false worship and replaced by Levi.' Any scriptural reference? The Levites never replaced Dan.
---David8318 on 12/29/10

First Century Christians such as Apostles Peter, Paul and John were among those 'sealed' and 'anointed' by HolySpirit. They were 'sealed' and thus initial members of the 144,000 'sealed' as described at Rev.7:1-4.

Reasons for this conclusion are (among other scriptures) 2 Cor.1:21,22- 'he who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.' Clearly, Paul was an 'anointed Christian', a 'sealed' member of the 144,000.

When did the 'sealing' by HolySpirit begin? Acts 2 tells us it started at Pentecost 33CE when HolySpirit was poured out. Peter was among the number and gave a speech, applying the prophecy at Joel 2:28-32.
---David8318 on 12/29/10

There is more then one Premillineal view. Those who follow the Secret Rapture or Pretribulationist belief teach this.

While I am a premilliealist I do not believe there will be a reign on the earth during a thousand years. I believe the church will go through the tribulation. Matthew 24 teaches me that JESUS will come and leave the earth empty.
---Samuel on 12/29/10

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David please note Rev 7:9-17 and you will see in v14 these people came out of the Great Tribulation.
Your group in Matt 24 comes out of the millennium.
The 144,000 also come out of the tribulation. They are descendants from the 12 tribes listed in Num 1.
In Matt 24 Jesus was asked, What shall be the sign of thy coming? He explained the 2nd coming.
Numbers 1 is the same tribes with the exception of Dan.
In Num 1 Moses took the first ever census to build an Army and determine who was eligible for the priesthood. Dan became involved in idol/false worship and replaced by Levi.
Does this answer or help with the question?
---Eldr on 12/28/10

Luk 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me, That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
And to whom was Jesus talking?
Not His disciples, which numbered many, but:
Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
Peter still sits as an elder an not one of the 144k in these verses.
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
multitude in the temple? by the elders? while the 144k on the earth are sealed?
---micha9344 on 12/28/10

Elder, you ask- 'Stop using one verse picked from here and there to try to prove an erroneous statement' (12/27/10).

I don't. I assumed you knew Mathew chapters 24 and 25 contain details given by Christ regarding the 'Great Tribulation' (24:21,29). Evidently you don't. You evidently don't believe the Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matthew is the same Tribulation Jesus spoke about at Revelation 7:14? So you must believe there are 2 'Great Tribulations'? How bizarre.

I view the Bible as God's complete Word or message to us. There is only one 'Great Tribulation', and only the 'Great Crowd' are said to survive it- Rev.7:14. The 144,000 have no need to survive the Gt.Tribulation because they've already been 'sealed'- Rev.7:4.
---David8318 on 12/28/10

Elder & Micha9344- not only Peter, but also Paul was an initial member of the 144,000 for the following reasons.

The 144,000 are said to be 'sealed'- Rev.7:4. Obviously this 'sealing' is done through the HohlySpirit as Romans 8:15 (read whole chapter Elder) says, 'but you received a spirit of adoption as sons'.

Paul said at 1 Cor.1:21,22, 'He who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.'

It is clear that Paul and the Corinthian congregation were 'anointed Christians', 'sealed' by HolySpirit. The resurrected Jesus later revealed the total number of 'sealed' ones as 144,000- Rev.7:4 & 14:1-4.
---David8318 on 12/28/10

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Micha9344- I do not believe the 144,000 are on earth and the 'Great Crowd' in heaven. My comments 12/24/10: 'the 144,000 rule with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom (Rev.14:1-4), a Great Crowd will enjoy Kingdom blessings on earth.'

The 24 elders represent the 144,000 in heaven after having been 'bought from among mankind'. At Rev.4:4, the 24 elders are seen as wearing 'crowns'. Jesus said those in the 'kingdom' with him would 'sit on thrones' (Lu.22:28-30), and Paul said anointed Christians would gain 'an incorruptible crown' (1 Cor.9:25).

Thus, Christians 'born again' and 'sealed' by HolySpirit numbering '144,000' rule as kings in heaven with Christ for 1000yrs over the 'Great Crowd' who on earth survive the Gt.Tribulation.
---David8318 on 12/28/10

Elder- where do you come up with the idea the 144,000 are all Jewish, saved "preachers of the Gospel during the Tribulation" people?

Revelation 7 shows they are not from the fleshly, literal tribes of natural Israel as found at Numbers 1:4-16.

Revelation 14:3,4 tells us that the 144,000 are 'bought from the earth... These were bought from among mankind'.

As for the 'Great Crowd', I used Matthew 25:31,32 to show that people on earth can be said to be 'before Christ's throne' without actually being in heaven- unless you believe the wicked ('goats') will be in heaven also. Thus, the 'Great Crowd' at Rev.7:9 will be on earth and yet be 'standing before the throne'.
---David8318 on 12/28/10

The book of Revelation has much metaphor. The 144,000 thousand are not literal virgns, but spiritual virgins, they are virgins to sin and are sinless. The key word in the verse is "defiled", holy woman cannot defile a man during intimacy, for God himself created the woman for the man. Only carnal woman can defile a man. Recall how the Israelites became defiled when they were captives in Babylon by yoking to unholy women? then they repented of this sin and God took them back, both the sanctified singles and the sanctified couples: Ezra 10:10-12. The 144,000 are the twelves sons of Israel of the o.t. by the twelve apostles of Jesus of the N.T. for 144. And take the 144 by God's number one Thousand, of a thousand to one, for 144,000.
---Eloy on 12/28/10

David, where do you come up with this stuff?
Peter was not an initial member of the 144,000. This is not a Jewish tribal club of some sort. The 144,000 are saved during the tribulation.
You posted verses which have no validity in this subject. No where does the Bible say that Peter was a member of the 144,00 as you say.
Next, the word used in Rev 14:4 is the Greek, "Parthenou." It literary means, virgin, celibacy and sometimes maiden. (Dont mess with my Greek) Non-virgin women were not called maidens.
Then the Bible plainly says These are they which were not defiled with women, for they ARE virgins,
Rev 14:4.
---Elder on 12/27/10

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Peter? One of the 144k? Not one of the 24 elders?
interesting point of view...
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment, and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands,
144k on earth, 24 elders + the great multitude in heaven... a little backwards compared to JW theory?
---micha9344 on 12/27/10

"agree, the 'Great Crowd' are not 'sealed' neither are they 'born again'. But they have a righteous standing with God through Christ's blood- Rev.7:14. They do stand before Christ's throne, but Matthew 25:31,32 indicates not in heaven." David

Com'on David. Stop using one verse picked from here and there to try to prove an erroneous statement. Certainly the great multitude is Born Again/ Saved. Read Rev 7:9-17.
Can someone have a righteous stand, serve God and not be Saved?
Matt 25:31-32 is speaking of all people from all nations on earth at the 2nd Coming. The multitude was saved during the Tribulation. Matt 25 is after the 2nd Coming.
You have got to separate the time periods of what is happening and when.
---Elder on 12/27/10

Elder- You still miss the point of Revelation 14:3,4 in that the 144,000 are 'bought from among mankind'. They are not all Jewish as can also be deduced as the tribal listing at Revelation 7 is not that of natural Israel as found at Numbers 1:4-16. The 144,000 thus are not specifically from natural Israel, but must be spiritual Israelites- 'the Israel of God' (Gal.6:16).

The Apostle Peter was one of the initial members of the 144,000 and yet he had a 'mother in law'- Mk.1:29-31 & 1 Cor.9:5. Thus, Peter was not a virgin in the sense of being celibate. 'Virgin' at Revelation 14 means something entirely different as the word 'virgin' is not exclusively used to describe someone who has not had intimate relations with another.
---David8318 on 12/27/10

StrongAxe- but you did say 'the Bible contains errors', and you repeated it in your 2nd post of 12/26/10- 'you must EITHER conclude that the Bible contains errors, OR that it says something that it doesn't really mean literally'

This is different to what you initially said on 12/26/10, 'it leads to the conclusions that the Bible contains errors, or that it is not consistent with itself.' (Which statement do you want?)

Had you initially said the Bible 'either contains errors' or has 'meanings that are not literal', then yes I agree with the later as I've shown previous, in that the tribal listing at Rev.7 is not literal/natural Israel (who rejected the Messiah and vice-versa), but spiritual Israel- the 'Israel of God'- Gal.6:16.
---David8318 on 12/27/10

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Elder- no I didn't miss the 2nd group the 'Great Crowd' at Rev.7:9. I highlighted the 2 groups of Rev.7 in my post of 12/24/10, long before you mentioned them. It's been a long held Biblical view of Jehovah's Witnesses that there are 2 groups of Christians- the '144,000' and the 'Great Crowd', who become 'one flock under one shepherd'- John 10:16.

I agree, the 'Great Crowd' are not 'sealed' neither are they spoken of as 'born again'. But they have a righteous standing with God through Christ's blood- Rev.7:14. They do stand before Christ's throne, but Matthew 25:31,32 indicates not in heaven. The separating of the 'sheep and goats' who are 'gathered before Christ's throne' must be on earth unless you believe the wicked also go to heaven.
---David8318 on 12/27/10

David8318 on 12/26/10 I would let you read to me but... I can't.. I still have my mind set on an adult.
You are either reading wrong or studying wrong infomation
Did you miss Rev 7:4 where these 144,000 come from the TRIBES of Israel? Did you miss the 2nd group that are not the sealed but stand before the throne? The second group is not any part of the virgins listed in Rev 7:5-8 or 14:1-4. This is not symbolic as you say either. The great multitude is the ones saved in the tribulation.
If you are this confused about Scripture how can you enjoy God's Word?
Get someone to read you my post of 12/25.
---Elder on 12/27/10

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
---micha9344 on 12/26/10

StrongAxe, I believe Mark 13:32 /Luke 12,10 are explained by Philippians 2:6-10. The Son of God made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness(part). He in becoming man and servant inherited human limitations. He therefore did not know that day and that hour.

Today in His perfected body He no longer has these limitations.

Notice also that in Luke 12:10 He calls Himself the Son of Man, pointing to his humanity. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable because He is God, but then, as servant and man, Jesus could not be blasphemed.

Can I with limited intelligence really explain such things? That is why we were given faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
---Warwick on 12/26/10

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Elder believes, 'The first group (144,000) only contains the male born Virgin Jews. Rev ch 7 & ch 14.' (Elder 12/25/10)

Elder obviously has not got an adult to read him Rev.14:3,4 which clearly states the 144,000 are 'bought from the earth... These were bought from among mankind'.

So the 144,000 are clearly not just Jewish people, but 'bought from among mankind'. They are 'virgins' in a symbolic sense.

High Priests in Israel were required under the Law to marry only a virgin- Lev.21:14. The Greater High Priest, Jesus Christ- the 'Lamb', also has a symbolic 'bride- the Lamb's wife'- Rev.21:9. The Lamb's bride is the 144,000 'bought from the earth', who are symbolically described as 'virgins'.
---David8318 on 12/26/10

I got the thousand years as a symbolic number, a number of completeness.

REVELATION 20:2 And he laid HOLD on the dragon,that old serpent,which is the devil and satan and bound him a thousand years. ( this had to be at the time of the cross) - Refer MATTHEW 12:29

REVELATION 20:3 ------ till the thousand years should be fulfilled, and after that loose a little season.( satan loose - REFER 2 THESSALONAINS 2
( this was the period of time when the churches were in full swing - in the end the fallenaway happens.)

REVELATION 20:6 ------ and of CHRIST , and shall reign with him a thousand years - ( Forevermore - completeness )
---RICHARD on 12/26/10


I id not say "the Bible contains errors".
I said that you must EITHER conclude that the Bible contains errors, OR that it says something that it doesn't really mean literally - and the latter is something that you yourself have been pointing out several times.

However, you have yet to explain why the list in Revelation goes to great lengths to explicitly enumerate every single tribe by name, rather than just saying "they are from all the tribes of israel" and allowing that to be treated literally or metaphorically as the context dictates? An explicit list makes metaphor less likely.
---StrongAxe on 12/26/10

If we take the word meanings and make some sort of statement out of them it may sound something like this,
I will praise the Lord because He has looked upon me and
He has Granted good fortune to me. Happy am I because in my wrestling with evil He is making me to forget all of my trials.
I know that God hears me because He is joined to me. He has Purchased me a dwelling place with His own Blood. I know that God will add to me the blessings of the Son of His right hand.
---Elder on 12/26/10

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The Meanings of the Names of the Tribes
And/or the Sons of Jacob
Rev 7:4-8

1. Judah = I will praise the Lord
2. Reuben = He has looked upon me
3. Gad = Granted good fortune
4. Asher = Happy am I
5. Naphtali = My wrestling
6. Manasseh = Making me to forget
7. Simeon = God hears me
8. Levi = Joined to me
9. Issachar = Purchased me
10. Zebulum = Dwelling
11. Joseph = God will add to me
12. Benjamin = Son of His right hand
---Elder on 12/26/10

StrongAxe- Rather than conclude that 'the Bible contains errors, or that it is not consistent' (your comments 12/26/10), could it be that your conclusions are in error or inconsistent?

The evidence in Revelation 7 and 14 clearly indicate that the 144,000 are not from natural Israel for at least 2 specific scriptural reasons-

1. the tribal listing in Revelation 7 is not that of natural Israel, and

2. Revelation 14:3,4 clearly states the 144,000 are 'bought from the earth... These were bought from among mankind'.

Thus, rather than holding to a long held belief perhaps passed to us by a respected teacher or relative and conclude the Bible to be in 'error', would it not be prudent to allow the Bible to speak for itself?
---David8318 on 12/26/10


Yes, I have long known about the discrepencies in the Revelation tribe list. Unforunately, the 125-word limit forces one to discuss things in bite-sized morsels.

So, what do you do when the Bible says something very explicitly, yet that disagrees with something it says somewhere else? You can either believe that the Bible says what it means, or it does no.

If it says what it means, it leads to the conclusions that the Bible contains errors, or that it is not consistent with itself. If it doesn't say what it means, it means that there are times the Bible plainly says something it doesn't mean, so we can never really be sure when it is being literal.

In either case, the ramifications are very unpleasant.
---StrongAxe on 12/26/10

StrongAxe I would rather say my conclusions are obvious from Scripture. Acts 4:12 tells us Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." The OT calls God the Saviour and the Redeemer and now His word says salvation comes only through Jesus! Is God therefore no longer Saviour and Redeemer. Did He retire or is it they are one and the same God, in three persons. That which we call the Trinity.

Can I explain the mystery of the Trinity, or the paradox of Jesus fully God/fully man? No but does my limitation of knowledge or intelligence in anyway negate its reality? We know it doesnt. cont
---Warwick on 12/26/10

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Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
Even though Ephraim was the younger, Israel gave him the blessing of the first-born, hence his father's place, so, the tribe of Joseph is the tribe of Ephraim.
Num 1:32 Of the children of Joseph, [namely], of the children of Ephraim, by their generations
Gen 48:5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, [are] mine, as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
Israel called both his.
Levi did not receive an inheritance, so the names stand Rev 7 compares with Num 1 equally.
---micha9344 on 12/25/10

Well, let's see what the Bible says.
There is one group, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. They are sealed by God, Rev 7:1-8.
There is another group, a great multitude which no man can number, Rev 7:9.
The first group only contains the male born Virgin Jews. Rev ch 7 & ch 14.
It is the second group that contains the different races, peoples, nations and languages.
There are two witness that testify and are murdered in Rev 11:3-13.
They lie dead in the street for 3 days. Then a voice from Heaven calls, "Come up hither."
They are raptured up to heaven. And some say there is no Rapture. In all reality this is the 4th Rapture spoke of in Scripture.
---Elder on 12/25/10

Yes, I see my error in regards to Dan and Levi before, or at least, while someone is jumping down my throat because of my gross negligence.
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Num 3:12 And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine,
Any insight on why Dan is not counted in Rev 7 other than just 'spiritual'?
---micha9344 on 12/25/10

StrongAxe- have you compared the list of tribes given in Revelation 7 with the actual list of the 12 tribes of natural Israel found at Numbers 1:4-16. I don't think you have.

When you do, you'll find they are not the same. The tribal list at Revelation 7 cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes.

However, there is obviously an organisational similarity. Revelation 7 is describing not natural Israel, but spiritual Israel- 'the Israel of God' (Gal.6:16), the '144,000... bought from among mankind'- Rev.14:3,4.
---David8318 on 12/25/10

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But don't forget Revelation 7:2-8 which also mentions 144,000 and not only says they're from the tribe of Israel, it emphasizes this point by explicitly enumerating each of the 12 tribes they are from.

If it had said "And I saw 50,000 Americans", one might argue about just what "American" meant in this context, but it if also said "1000 from New York, and 1000 from Virginia, and 1000 from Rhode Island, and..." there would be no ambiguity at all.

The 144,000 are mentioned twice, and most assumed these two groups are one and the same, but what if they were two separate groups of 144,000 - one group of Jews, and a separate group of gentiles? Does anyone have an ideas on this?
---StrongAxe on 12/25/10

"According to Elder the 144,000 are- 'male born Jewish virgins that preach the Gospel during the tribulation" I am in complete agreement with Elder on this statement.
---mima on 12/25/10


That does not, in itself, say that they are one and the same. If you change a few of the words to get a similar sentence:

"When you see me, you see my face. My face is in me". I am NOT my face, nor is my face me. We are closely related and inseparable, but we are NOT one and the same.
---StrongAxe on 12/25/10

to fulfill the prophecy...we have seen the suffering servant, but Israel still waits for their king...actually this so called "pre-millenial" view is scripture and all the "living in a symbolic 1000yrs" now brigade are off track by a country mile!
---richard on 12/25/10

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According to Elder the 144,000 are- 'male born Jewish virgins that preach the Gospel during the tribulation'.

The Bible however teaches the 144,000 are chosen not only from the Jews, but also from the rest of mankind:

'you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.'- Rev.5:9,10

'144,000... bought from the earth... These were bought from among mankind'- Rev.14:3,4.

'... but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.' Rev.20:6.
---David8318 on 12/25/10

I could be wrong about this, but I am quite sure that "Elder" is Elder's given name not one he made up. Several years ago there was a discussion over some names and I think I remember at that time that he said this to be so. If it was not him, who was it? Anybody remember that conversation?
---Bruce5656 on 12/24/10

Thank you Alan.
David is like one of those sparrows that we don't shoot with a cannon. The more he writes the more we see how unlearned he is in everything.
Speaking about lies, he said "the 144,000 rule with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom." In truth they are male born Jewish virgins that preach the Gospel during the tribulation.
But I do get his cult mixed up with the LDS. That is where the miracle wheat came from.
God bless you Alan.
As long as we share truth we will always have our own personal David8318s to deal with.
---Elder on 12/24/10

Jesus said, "When you see me, you see the Father. I in the Father and the Father in me."
---Doris on 12/24/10

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David ... Elder is too wise to feel insulted by your guttersnipe attack.

And Elder is his actual name
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/24/10


You use logic to INFER Father and Son must be one and the same, but there is no scripture explicitly saying they are. Scriptures say they are ONE, NOT one and the same. In fact, it says so directly:

Mark 13:32
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

If Son and Father were one and the same, how could He simultaneously know and not know? Is He schizophrenic? Son and Holy Spirit cannot be one and the same either, for similar reason:

Luke 12:10
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."
---StrongAxe on 12/24/10

Do you honestly believe I'm getting angry over such an inconsequential individual as yourself Elder? You're having delusions of grandeur. You obviously call yourself 'Elder' to compensate for something you're not?

But what you are Elder is a persistent liar. What issue have you got with someone growing wheat? Do you also have psychological problems with wheat growers? Let's see where your persistent lies and misrepresentations lead you.

According to Revelation 7, there are 2 groups- the 144,000 (7:4) and the 'Great Crowd' (7:9). Which one I belong to is irrelevant. I will not be casting my pearl before swine. 144,000 rule with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom (Rev.14:1-4), a Great Crowd will enjoy Kingdom blessings on earth.
---David8318 on 12/24/10

David, from another thread. You write nonsense. Adam was given the opportunity to obey Gods but 'failed at the first jump.'

Satan attempted to tempt Jesus but failed utterly. Though Satan tried, Jesus was not tempted. The tempting was in the tempters attempt, no more! No comparison.

You cannot seriously deny both the Father and the Son are alike called the Creator, the Redeemer, the Saviour, the Alpha and the Omega. Being given identical exclusive titles means they are one and the same. Adam is only called Sinner.

Only Obama is 'The President of the United States.'

Any son is of the one substance and equal in his nature to his father. Your cultic indoctrination blinds you to Scripture and rationality.
---Warwick on 12/23/10

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David you are so right adults reading to me does help. The Christians are great. I understand now that you need picture books.
Candice should have said, "I'm not a JW now." Ask her if she studied with that cult.
I like how you can "read the minds" of people.
So why didn't you answer if you are one of the 144,000 or not?
I know you are angry because I have hit an exposed error nerve with a dose of truth.
If Charlie Russell were still alive do you think he would still sell his miracle wheat?
---Elder on 12/23/10

\\That would depend on just what the Greek word "aion" means. I always thought it meant "an age" (i.e. "an aeon", a long but finite period of time) - and meant "forever" only hyperbolically.
---StrongAxe on 12/23/10\\

While the Greek expression "eis tous aionas ton aionan" (compare with the Latin "in secula seculorum") is literally "unto ages of ages", most English Bibles render it with the colorless "forever and ever" or something similar.

FWIW, Orthodox English liturgical texts prefer the more literal rendering.
---Cluny on 12/23/10

No Cluny I was including that to show that though his kingdom is not of this world there will be a time when this world will again be a part of his Kingdom as it was in the beginning.
---Pharisee on 12/23/10

Daniel 7:22 JUDGMENT was given to the saints of the most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?

Three times in the bible we are told that WE shall judge the earth.

Revelation 20 says it will last for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and JUDGMENT was given unto them: and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The reign is a reign as JUDGES with christ in heaven.
and when the 1000 years was over then the NJ comes down to earth with the saints.
---francis on 12/23/10

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Elder- having an adult read for you helps with your comprehension does it? Thanks for the suggestion.

Even Candice in her comments 12/22/10 understood what you meant. By implication of her mistaken belief you took the opportunity to falsely misrepresent Jehovah's Witnesses. You continue your misrepresentations by labeling JW's as a cult. JW's are not a cult. They do not have a human as their leader such as the RCC and Anglican churches.

I agree with your comments and application of the verses you cite at Rev.20 and 21. JW's believe what the Bible teaches at Revelation regarding the 1000yr reign as you point out. Your only interest however is to misrepresent JW's through your own ignorance.
---David8318 on 12/23/10


That would depend on just what the Greek word "aion" means. I always thought it meant "an age" (i.e. "an aeon", a long but finite period of time) - and meant "forever" only hyperbolically.
---StrongAxe on 12/23/10

So, Pharisee, are you saying that "forever and ever" is the same as 1000 years?
---Cluny on 12/22/10

//Understand that there is no such thing as a literal earthly millennium.\\

Revelation 11:15 and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired
Revelation 20:6 they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:4 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Bible says it so I believe it.
---Pharisee on 12/22/10

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//Next, there are two places in the Bible, namely Psalm 90 (Hebrew) and 2 Peter 3 where it says that 1000 years are NOT to be understood as we experience and understand earthly time.\\

2 Peter 3:8 one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

The language used here is descriptive and explains a thousand years in god's perspective. That doesn't mean we should interpret a thousand years as ONE day or less then 1000 years every time we see it written or even at all for that matter.
---Pharisee on 12/22/10

\\I stand corrected, we are IN the end times, \\

Quite right, candice.

We have been in the last days for the last 2000 years (or so) since Pentecost. As St. Peter said in Acts 2, "THIS is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel: In the last days I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh....."

The Apostle was not talking about a future event, but something that was going on right that moment in his lifetime, when he mentioned the "last days".
---Cluny on 12/22/10

David8318 try to get an adult to read what I wrote to you then you may see I never said the JWs believed this or that.
I said that Candice was speaking from her experience as a JW. She has been a JW.
Why don't you comment on the Scripture I posted? Am I right or wrong in your view?
You try to protect a cult while an important biblical subject is being distorted. Kinda makes me wonder why?
Are you one of the 144,000?
---Elder on 12/22/10

Candice as I have told you before I have seen Christian growth in you. I find no fault with you personally. But, you are still a bit confused about this issue.
We are in "end times" as far as the beginning and end is concerned. We are not yet in the end times as far as the 1000 years are concerned.
Satan has not been bound yet.
Now the Holy Spirit restrains him. When the Holy Spirit is removed from earth Satan will then go rampaging. That will be during Jacob's Trouble/The Great Tribulation. He will be later bound and cast into the bottomless pit to be loosed later.
That is the Biblical order
Read Rev 20 and Rev 21.
---Elder on 12/22/10

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I stand corrected, we are IN the end times, but I donot know when it will occur since I am not God. I should have said the 1,000 yrs occured & Satan is let loose again for awhile.
---candice on 12/22/10

To put right the falsehood and misrepresentation of Elder- Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe the 1000yr reign of Christ has begun.

Christ's 1000yr reign is still future and will begin at the time Satan and his demons are abyssed, evidently after Armageddon (Rev.16:16 & 20:3).

Christ's 1000yr reign will involve earth as it is the earth Christ will rule over- Rev.5:10 & 20:5.

The earth is still in existence at the conclusion of the 1000years at Rev.20:7, and will remain forever to be inhabited- Is.45:18, and Matthew 5:5 where Christ quotes Psalms 37:11.
---David8318 on 12/22/10

Alas! Christians need to study Apocalypse chapter 20 more carefully.

The two witnesses already came. Christians in the West (today) are the tents of the Saints and the Beloued city in Reuelation 20:8-9.

I'll write no more. Because, I'm going to take plenty of heat for saying this.

We most likely will now have to hear the fantasies that:

The Antichrist is "still" to come.

The two witnesses are still to come in spite of 2,010 years passing by.

The 7-year Tribulation first.

Reality-checker: I E S V S CHRIST'S second coming could be today.

Sources: The Bible and Protestant theology
---Kev on 12/22/10

I am not a jehovah's witness nor speaking for them, this is personal & what God showed me. If they believe this too great, if not then that's up to them.
---candice on 12/22/10

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Pharisee, Candice is speaking from her experence as a JW.
She, in error, said, "We are in the 1,000 yrs now. When Satan was let loose he is doing his damage."
The Biblical Truth is when Christ returns (2nd Coming) He binds Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit, Rev 20:1-3.
There will be no satanic influence on earth during that time. Evil will be produced in the heart of mankind.
After the 1000 years Satan will be loosed and gather the evil ones for battle against Christ (the final revolt of Satan), Rev 20:7-15. Then comes the new heaven and earth, Rev 21:1-7.
The Truth is clear even though cults like the JWs try to distort it.
---Elder on 12/22/10

\\If there's some point I don't understand please enlighten me.
---Pharisee on 12/21/10\\

Gladly, Pharisee.

Understand that there is no such thing as a literal earthly millennium.

There are two reasons for this.

1. This is a kingdom of this world, and Jesus said His Kingdom was NOT of this world.

2. Next, there are two places in the Bible, namely Psalm 90 (Hebrew) and 2 Peter 3 where it says that 1000 years are NOT to be understood as we experience and understand earthly time.
---Cluny on 12/22/10

We are in the 1,000 yrs now.
---candice on 12/21/10

Where in the world did you get that idea?
The Book of Revelation shows the 1000 year reign of Christ occurring after his return. I know he hasn't returned because it's never been recorded by anyone. Further in that time Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. If you think the events of this age are according to the way God would have it as an absolute ruler I'd be hard pressed to believe that you know him at all.

If there's some point I don't understand please enlighten me.
---Pharisee on 12/21/10

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