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Is Church History Important

Is knowing Early Church History (first 5 centuries) important? If so, what is important? If not, why not?

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 ---Rod4Him on 12/22/10
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frances //"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday.

No serious student of the Bible will dispute that the Bible authorizes Sunday as a day of worship. Howbeit, it is very PLAIN from scripture the church does NOT have a Sabbath - only that rest in Christ for the Christian.Hebrew 4.

Calvin was totally correct in his view the Jewish Sabbath was abrogated.

And Samuele Bacchiocchi (SDA church historian) was correct that the church made Sunday a worship day as early as 135 A.D.

Romans 14:5 one may esteem one day over others or none at all.

Why can't you get it? Are you that stupid?
---leej on 12/28/10


francis ------

Please address the fact that the Eastern churches - Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Nestorian and other Apostolic churches NEVER observed the Jewish Sabbath.

Can you not admit the olde Ellen White simply did not even know of their existence in blaming the Roman Church for changing the Sabbath to Sunday?

The fact that the Roman Church claims the authority is totally irrevelant!

Suggest strongly you find a good book on Church history written by historian with credentials and READ IT. Otherwise you will remain ignorant and in the DARK.
---leej on 12/28/10


francis //Only a fool, or one who cannot read the bible for himself would fall that that.

The Westminster Confession was written by the Puritans. I rather doubt if anyone would agree with your view that they were fools that could not read the Bible.

Perhaps in making such a statement, you are regressing even more so in obeying your master the snake in the Garden of Eden?

Kathr4453 -As to the Westminster Confession of Faith, I am reading the commentary on it for what it is worth but do not agree with everything they supported especially their view that the Jewish Sabbath was changed to Sunday, thro I may agree with the principle behind the Sabbath commandment.
---leej on 12/28/10


{Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness, for he that does not work, let him not eat.}{no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the of the Lords Day}-Ignatius to the Magnesians Ch9
{For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses, no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God}-Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho ch23
---micha9344 on 12/28/10


//is that the best you an do? Come on you,re stumping with the big dogs do better:

And was not Ellen White one of them?

Isa 56:10 [Her] watchmen are blind, they are all without knowledge, they are all silent dogs, they cannot bark, dreaming, lying down, loving to slumber.
---leej on 12/28/10




---leej
is that the best you an do? Come on you,re stumping with the big dogs do better:

James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.
"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we (THE RCC) never sanctify."
---francis on 12/28/10


So leej, are you now admitting the Westminster confession of faith is NOT all that?
---kathr4453 on 12/28/10


Westminister Confession of Faith, XXI,7 As is the law of nature, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God ...blah blah blah
---leej on 12/28/10
Only a fool, or one who cannot read the bible for himself would fall that that.

Sabbath is, and will always be a memorial of God's creative power. the FACT that God created the world in SIX days and rested on the seventh CANNOT be change by the death of Jesus. You cannot go back in time and undo creation.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
---francis on 12/28/10


Cluny//Only those councils that were allowed to deliberate without the emperor's interference does the Orthodox Church recognize as Ecumenical.

Was one of those councils the Orthodox church recognizes the Council of Laodicea - a regional synod of approximately thirty clerics from Asia Minor, that assembled about 363-364 AD in Laodicea, Phrygia Pacatiana?

Among the major accomplishments was the Outlawing the keeping of the sabbath and encouraging rest on Sunday (the Lord's Day) (canon 29)

Maybe Adventists will want to re-write history and instead of blaming Rome for the change of the Sabbath, will instead blame the Orthodox Church?

LOL
---leej on 12/28/10


Westminister Confession of Faith, XXI,7 As is the law of nature, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God ... by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed 1 day in 7, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him, which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ, was changed to the 1st day of the week, in scriputre called the Lord's day and is to be continue to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath.

However, in Scripture (Romans 14) we see no day was mandated as the Sabbath for the church.

So, francis, both you and the Puritans who wrote the WCF are in error.
---leej on 12/28/10




Roman 14:5-6 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord, and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks, and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

And we also have the testimony of the Lord's church that Sunday was the day of worship.

"We keep the 8th day (Sunday) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas, (A.D. 74)

Poor illiterate Adventists, afraid of the truth, will not and cannot study the Bible or church history.
---leej on 12/28/10


\\Granted, he was not in Rome, but the emperors were very much involved in the councils.\\

Only those councils that were allowed to deliberate without the emperor's interference does the Orthodox Church recognize as Ecumenical.

There were other imperial councils called during this time that the Church does not recognize.
---Cluny on 12/28/10


Alexander Campbell, The Christian Baptist, Feb. 2, 1824,vol. 1. no. 7, p. 164.

'But,' say some, 'it was changed from the seventh to the first day.' Where? When? and by Whom? No man can tell. No, it never was changed, nor could it be, unless creation was to be gone through again: for the reason assigned must be changed before the observance, or respect to the reason, can be changed! It is all old wives fables to talk of the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day. If it be changed, it was that august personage who changes times and laws ex officio - I think his name is DOCTOR ANTICHRIST.
---francis on 12/28/10


//However, it is impossible to get around the fact that the Eastern Orthodox Churches and other churches that claimed Apostolic succession were never under the control of Rome and never observed the Jewish Sabbath.//

All seven of the Ecumentical Councils, which are recognized by the Eastern Orthodox, were called by the Emperor. Granted, he was not in Rome, but the emperors were very much involved in the councils.

However, I am not agreeing that the emperor changed the day to gether for church.

But let's be honest and keep the facts straight.
---Rod4Him on 12/28/10


Wordonly, Phil 3 tells us HOW we become conformed to His Image. One is Conformed to His death.

Secondly only those who are crucified with Christ and raised a New creature are Baptized into His Body making up the Church.

It's all there in scripture.

And as long as we have those who NEED the first five century whatevers, to understand salvation, they will never understand the early church trashed the Gospel...turning it to VIOLENCE, forcing people to become Christians and believing the Church is an earthly dominion run by thugs. These THUGS are still here with us today. Many are right here on line.
---kathr4453 on 12/28/10


Alexander Campbell, The Christian Baptist, Feb. 2, 1824,vol. 1. no. 7, p. 164.

'But,' say some, 'it was changed from the seventh to the first day.' Where? When? and by Whom? No man can tell. No, it never was changed, nor could it be, unless creation was to be gone through again: for the reason assigned must be changed before the observance, or respect to the reason, can be changed! It is all old wives fables to talk of the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day. If it be changed, it was that august personage who changes times and laws ex officio - I think his name is Doctor Antichrist.
---francis on 12/28/10


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Kathr, it does not surprise me that you are so confused about Scripture. You spoke and ranted and rave that you can come to Christ without God first bringing you to life. That by your own free will you can do what we say is impossible to do. Now you present a passage to support your view here which clearly speaks against what you ranted an raved about. Who brings you out of darkness? You suggested before you could come out of darkness with your own free will. God speaks different from your own quote:
"1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of "Him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light,"
---Mark_V. on 12/28/10


---Wordonly we need both holiness and righteousness to enter the kingdom of heaven. With the acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ both holiness and righteousness are imputed to us. In other words we cannot depend upon our righteousness or holiness but only upon the righteousness and holiness of our Savior.
---mima on 12/28/10


kathr4453:

How are we conformed to His image do we keep the Law?

How do we become a holy nation?

Thanks,
---Wordonly on 12/27/10


francis//D.L. Moody, at San Francisco, Jan. 1st, 1881.

Moody believed that the Christian Sabbath was Sunday observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ.

The Puritans (see Westminster Confessions) believed the Sabbath was changed to Sunday by Christ.

Calvin believed that the Sabbath was abrogated.

However, it is impossible to get around the fact that the Eastern Orthodox Churches and other churches that claimed Apostolic succession were never under the control of Rome and never observed the Jewish Sabbath.

And that in effect, totally demolishes Ellen White's view that Rome changed the Sabbath. Her assumption was that all the early church was Roman Catholic. She did not know church history.
---leej on 12/27/10


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\\Probably the most recognized authority on the church history is Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church.\\

Speaking as an Orthodox, I will assure you that Philip Schaff's facts are entirely trustworthy.

Since he's a German Calvinist, his INTERPRETATION of those facts I need not accept.
---Cluny on 12/28/10


1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light,


Here is the KEY, A chosen GENERATION meaning THIS church age, the Mystical body of Christ..both Jew and Gentile.

Now we do see Jesus referring to This generation or that generation.

Don't get your GENERATIONS confused. Generations can also mean DISPENSATIONS!!!

So it is the CHURCH in this generation who is called out!
---kathr4453 on 12/28/10


\\If I had a credible sources for any christian church doing this I would be able to better answer. I have seen no credible source.\\

In other words, since you have no credible sources for church history, we should not take what you say about it seriously, now should we?

**If the RCC is claiming to make the change, how then can E G WHite be credited with false accusation?**

Maybe the RCC's claim is itself untrue.

As far as EGW herself, have you ever heard of the book THE WHITE LIE?
---Cluny on 12/27/10


//LEEJ all your posts add up to NIL because I posted several RCC sources which claim to have made the change.

You are simply stonewalling and deliberately refusing to acknowledge verifiable historical facts.

And you even refuse to believe your own Adventist church historians as well as others whose work can be verified that the Jewish Sabbath was not observed by the ancient churches.

Like Cluny stated, you cannot even find any reference to the Eastern Orthodox or other Apostolic churches in any of Ellen Whites works. She was totally ignorance of their exitence and the fact that they never observed the Jewish Sabbath.

Poor soul when will you ever find the truth?
---leej on 12/27/10


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//If I had a credible sources for any Christian church doing this I would be able to better answer. I have seen no credible source.

Probably the most recognized authority on the church history is Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church.

Suggest you take the time to read some church history otherwise you will continue to stay incredibly ignorant.
---leej on 12/27/10


"The [Seventh-day] Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This Fourth Commandment [Exodus 20:8-11] begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath had already existed when God wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they admit that the other nine are still binding?
"Dwight. L. Moody, Weighed and Wanting", 1898, pp.46-47 [D.L. Moody, (1837-1899) was the most famous evangelist of his time, and founder of the Moody Bible Institute].

"This Fourth is not a commandment for one place, or one time, but for all places and times."
D.L. Moody, at San Francisco, Jan. 1st, 1881.
---francis on 12/27/10


As I have pointed out, ancient Churches of Apostolic foundation that were NEVER part of the Roman Church or even Empire observe SUNDAY as the principal liturgical day, though services are held on other days as well.

How do you explain this, francis?
---Cluny on 12/27/10

If I had a credible sources for any christian church doing this I would be able to better answer. I have seen no credible source.

LEEJ all your posts add up to NIL because I posted several RCC sources which claim to have made the change. Thus it could NEVER be WEG white who made such a claim.

If the RCC is claiming to make the change, how then can E G WHite be credited with false accusation?
Truth is a COMPLETE DEFENCE.
---FRANCIS on 12/27/10


francis - Whereas Adventists claim the Roman Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday, again they apparently ignore the fact that the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Nestorian and other church groups who were never never under the control of Rome always observed Sunday as the day of worship.

I am sure Cluny will tell you that they all simply snapped their heels together and obeyed when Rome made the pronouncement that the Sabbath was to be changed.

And then you have nothing in the writings of the early first 3 century church writer that supported the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.

Thus the claim that Rome changed the Sabbath to Sunday is totally without any merit.
---leej on 12/27/10


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kathr4453 //God doesn't forgive/have mercy based on our begging, God forgives based solely on Jesus death and sacrifice.

While we need not beg for forgiveness, we obtain forgiveness when we confess our sins.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As for works, they are merely a reflection of the handiwork of His Spirit within our lives (Eph. 2:10).
---leej on 12/27/10


It is very important that church historians have credentials others recognize.

For instance, Ellen White had only a 4th grade education but should we take her views of history over those of her own denomination?

Samuele Bacchiocchi, Adventist historian wrote in an E-mail message to the Free Catholic Mailing List on 8 Feb 1997 and said:

I differ from Ellen White on the origin of Sunday. She teaches that in the 1st centuries all Christians observed the Sabbath and it was largely through the efforts of Constantine that Sundaykeeping was adopted by many Christians in the 4th century.

My research shows otherwise. ... I place the origin of Sundaykeeping by the time of the Emperor Hadrian, in A. D. 135.
---leej on 12/27/10


markV , "the Many are called but few are chosen" does not support your bogus doctrine.

If you read Romans...those who are Called are also conformed to His image. How do you rectify that...no one was chosen to be conformed to His Image. If your THEORY is correct, then why didn't God use the CHOSEN ONES rather than the CALLED OUT ONES in reference to the Church.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light,
---kathr4453 on 12/27/10


T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18,1884.

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic Church says: 'No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church."
---francis on 12/27/10


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francis - it is important to see the early church continued to follow in the Mosaic tradition by observing the Sabbath and all the temple ordinances.

In fact, the early church was considered a mere sect of Judaism.

Even Paul participated in Jewish rights & practices after conversion. This is clearly seen in Acts 21:26.

Howbeit we read in Acts 2:46-47 Christians were celebrating the Eucharist in their homes on the 1st day of the week - something they could NOT do in the Jewish synagogues (20:7).

The early church was noted for the conflict between Jews and Gentiles, that has to be resolved at the Jerusalem council.

Thus, we see a departure from observance of laws strictly Jewish.
---leej on 12/27/10


It isn't important to ones salvation to know the History of Early Churches. The only authority and guide given us by God is the Holy Bible. That is our early church History. All the churches which formed outside of that,no matter what their origin is claimed to be,doesn't decide our salvation. Knowing those churches development is only educating us to know the social,political,and religious practices of their time. Learning History feeds our head knowledge,not our heart knowledge and our relationship with God is one of the heart. The Bible says in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show yourself approved unto God,a workman,that needs not be ashamed,rightly diving the Word of Truth. The most important thing is to know the Word of God.
---Darlene_1 on 12/27/10


Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927), p. 136.

"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday ..the Church..instituted by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."

Bishop Seymour, Why We Keep Sunday.

We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic Church."
---francis on 12/27/10


Mark We are back to the same old disagreement between us!

I say "Why would the king punish the man unless the man had chosen to not to dress properly"

You say that everything, including what we do ( & in this case, how we dress) is pre-ordained by God.

That means God had decided in advance, and caused, the man to come not properly dressed.

What 'just' king would 'punish' someone for behaving as the king had caused him to behave?
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/27/10


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\\Had she( RCC) not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her - she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."
---francis on 12/26/10\\

To CLAIM to have done something is no proof that the claim is true.

As I have pointed out, ancient Churches of Apostolic foundation that were NEVER part of the Roman Church or even Empire observe SUNDAY as the principal liturgical day, though services are held on other days as well.

How do you explain this, francis?
---Cluny on 12/27/10


On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits, because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting, lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time [A.D. 321].) Source: Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3, trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol.3 (5th ed., New York: Scribner, 1902), p.380, note 1.
---francis on 12/27/10


Church history has its place if it is rooted & grounded in what the Bible teaches. But, if it takes one's focus (mind) deep in the hellish hole of debate, far away from Scripture, it is then of no consequence (is wood, hay & stubble) & a snare (trap) to one's soul.
---Leon on 12/27/10


Four hundred years after the death of Christ and one hundred years after Constantine's linking of Church and State by his Sunday law edict, Rome and Alexandria were the only places in the world where many of the Christians kept only Sunday and not the true Sabbath. Why was it that Rome and Alexandria were also the first locations that Sunday worship began? Because this is where the pagan practices of Babylon eventually landed after it was conquered. And what was the dominant pagan practice that the Babylonian priests brought with them? Sun worship which was done on Sun-day! See the history of Sunday worship for more detail.
---francis on 12/27/10


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Mark ... If the man had not choice, and had done as the king ordained, how can he have been guilty of disobedience, and how can he be justly punished?

Yes, in this parable, everyone, from the highest in the land, to the tramps in the hedges, were called.

Most of them refused the invitation, and of those that did come, one failed to wear the right clothing.

Only those who came and with respect, wearing the wedding garments, were finally chosen.

Sounds just like free will.
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/27/10


Knowing the history of the church may help one understand the church of today.
---Eloy on 12/27/10


Alan, why did I not think you would answer that way? You said,

"Second, those that eventually came had the choice as to how to dress, and one man chose not to dress properly, and so was thrown out."

If they had a choice as to how to dress, why would the king say,
""Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" "For many are called, but few are chosen"
Does it say the man had free will? Or lets just say, "a choice.?" Punished him after giving him a choice?
Alan, he had no choice.
---Mark_V. on 12/27/10


It says we should contend for the faith originally given unto the elect.
The only church history I am concerned with id that which the original apostles had.
The church had already been perverted in James days.
It's far more evil now. Far too many Diotrephes spoken of in 3 John. That proud spirit that won't give place unto the truth and the messengers that bring it.
---Frank on 12/27/10


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2Cor 11:13-15 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.
-God creates, Satan distorts...
---micha9344 on 12/27/10


MarkV, I believe one is saved by Grace through faith plus NOTHING...no works here!

But you believe after your saved you begged for mercy...now that my friend is RCC WORKS salvation.

God doesn't forgive/have mercy based on our begging, God forgives based solely on Jesus death and sacrifice.
---kathr4453 on 12/27/10


\\Howbeit, Adventists are forbidden to read church history except that of Ellen White who had only a 4th grade education.\\

In common with many other great psychics and mediums, such as Peter Hurkos and Edgar Cayce, EGW suffered a head trauma followed by an extended period of unconsciousness, during which period the walk-in demon of divination walked in.
---Cluny on 12/26/10


Ellen WHite did not blame the RCC for the change. the RCC admitted it:
THE CATHOLIC EXTENSION MAGAZINE
180 Wabash Avenue, Chicago, Illinois

Dear Sir:
Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:

(2)We say, this Church(RCC),.. has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to the Sunday. We frankly say, "Yes, the Church made this change, made this law, (3) We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their teachings.

With best wishes,
Peter R. Tramer. Editor
---francis on 12/26/10


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James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.

"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify

Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.

Had she( RCC) not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her - she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."
---francis on 12/26/10


//Could it be that she simply was unaware of their existence?

Ellen White in blaming the Roman church for changing the Sabbath to Sunday, merely took advantage of religious prejudice.

I would like very much for Jerry and Francis to shine some light on this if they are capable of doing so.

Howbeit, Adventists are forbidden to read church history except that of Ellen White who had only a 4th grade education.

For them to know the truth would certainly change their entire world. Imagine they could no longer stand in judgment of others and condemn them for not observing the Jewish Sabbath.



---leej on 12/26/10


\\You will not find anything in her writings that even mentions the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Coptic church, Nestorian church or any other non-Roman group.
---leej on 12/26/10\\

You took the words right out of my mouth, leej.

Could it be that she simply was unaware of their existence?

And it is merely a coincidence that those churches of Apostolic foundation, such as the Assyrian Church of the East and the St. Thomas Churches of India that were NEVER part of the Roman Catholic church have their principal worship day on Sunday?
---Cluny on 12/26/10


Early church history as depicted by the early writers of the church, can give us a clue as to what the Apostles and their immediate successors taught.

For instance, we can read from their writings that the early church did not teach laws that were strictly Jewish in nature, such as the keeping of the Sabbath, the dietary laws, or physical circumcision.

Unfortunate, such non-historians like Ellen White maintained that the Roman Church changed the sabbath to Sunday, but her assumption was that all the early church was Roman Catholic. You will not find anything in her writings that even mentions the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Coptic church, Nestorian church or any other non-Roman group.
---leej on 12/26/10


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MarkV In two ways, that parable speaks to me of Free Will.

First, those that were the king's first choice did not accept the invitation.

Second, those that eventually came had the choice as to how to dress, and one man chose not to dress properly, and so was thrown out.

Those who were eventually chosen were not those originally invited, but those who finally came, and came properly dressed
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/26/10


Alan, your opinion is not surprising to me. I will answer you with the parable of the Marriage Feast. The king invited everyone to come, and no one came, the king said, "The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy." So the king sent his servants into the highways to find guest. "But when the king came in to see the quests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment, So he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?" The king said to the servants, "Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" "For many are called, but few are chosen"
---Mark_V. on 12/26/10


Mark ... If yu are invited to someone's house and then asked to join them in a meal, and you say "Thank you, I would love that" ...
Does that make you the cook?
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/25/10


Kathr, let me say I was enlightened by history, and all the reformers that what you teach is false. You teach a work salvation just as Catholics do. If I had not read what was taught to us when I was a Catholic I would not know what I know about you and others who remain using the same believes. You might not think you are using works for salvation, but you gave your testimony, and there was no repentance or remorse for your rebellion against God, the fact is, as you gave it, you didn't even have faith, you expected to get it later. Your own words. They (Catholics) think once they work hard enough with their rituals of do's and don't, they can have salvation.
---Mark_V. on 12/25/10


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\\"Nobody but you ever said that the writings of the fathers were on par with the Holy Scriptures." Cluny

And when exactly did I ever say such a thing?
---scott on 12/24/10\\

You did imply that Orthodox think that on 23 December 2010:

**In my experience the RCC & Orthodox (generally) seem much more comfortable discussing and examining that history because they view the creeds that were composed by uninspired 'fathers' of equal importance to the bible itself.**
---Cluny on 12/24/10


Part 2--Please post.

You also said this:

**However, are you suggesting that the words these men spoke and the words that they put into writing are divinely inspired as were those recorded in the bible?

Were the words written by the 'fathers' (that formed the Church creeds and doctrine) inspired as were the words of Matthew, Luke, John...Christ himself?
---scott on 12/23/10**
---Cluny on 12/24/10


"Nobody but you ever said that the writings of the fathers were on par with the Holy Scriptures." Cluny

And when exactly did I ever say such a thing?
---scott on 12/24/10


\\ When an RCC finds out how wrong they were to believe something not in Scripture, his eyes are opened.\\

When I was a Baptist, and I found out how many wrong things I was to were not in Scripture, my eyes were opened, too.
---Cluny on 12/24/10


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church history is so important to us because if we do not find out what happen in history we will not know where so much of the false teachings come from and why. Will it change our believes? Of course it will,---Mark_V. on 12/24/10


Well MarkV, not everyone is enlightened by history. Take yourself and Calvin's history of VIOLENCE. Has teh knowledge of that changed your beliefs. NO!!!

Even Calvin was influenced by te VIOLENCE of Constantine. Righeous wars and crusades are not just RCC.
Stop point fingers unless you have one pointed at you/Calvinism!

Even the Puritans were VIOLENT. So much so they even murdered themselves...their own elect. Over what? That teh elect can cast demons on other elect? NUTS to that!
---kathr4453 on 12/24/10


\\Were the words written by the 'fathers' (that formed the Church creeds and doctrine) inspired as were the words of Matthew, Luke, John...Christ himself?
---scott on 12/23/10\\

Nobody but you ever said that the writings of the fathers were on par with the Holy Scriptures.

Certainly Orthodox and Roman Catholics never said that.

But I believe that St. John Chrysostom or St. Nicholas Cabasilas to be more inspired, and therefore more trustworthy, than Tim LaHaye (for example).
---Cluny on 12/24/10


Rod4him, church history is so important to us because if we do not find out what happen in history we will not know where so much of the false teachings come from and why. Will it change our believes? Of course it will, but not faith in Christ. When an RCC finds out how wrong they were to believe something not in Scripture, his eyes are opened. What's happening is that God is beginning to influence us through great man in history to teach us. God works through His Word and through many of the remnant to bring us Truth of Christ. The real Truth. So many have been blinded for so long. The Bible speaks of many things that we do not understand unless we learn history and customs of the time, or else we will have trouble understanding a passage.
---Mark_V. on 12/24/10


What i know for a fact is this. Through Constantine and the RCC Christianity turned VIOLENT and teh cross became a symbol of violence to Jews, and anyone not Christian. There were more mass murders of Jews after Constantine and has carried on even through WWII, the absolute hatred of God's chosen People.

One certainly MUST see WHERE anti-semitism started and who started it.

THAT is not God, but a doctrine from hell itself!



---kathr4453 on 12/24/10


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"It's these very same uninspired fathers whom you speak of with such contempt..." Cluny

Not sure how you get 'contempt' from my comments. I am fascinated by the rich and important history of the 'fathers', a topic that I think many would do well to research.

However, are you suggesting that the words these men spoke and the words that they put into writing are divinely inspired as were those recorded in the bible?

Were the words written by the 'fathers' (that formed the Church creeds and doctrine) inspired as were the words of Matthew, Luke, John...Christ himself?
---scott on 12/23/10


SCOTT, We don't need History to SHAPE our faith. It's this shaping that the conscience of man has become dull and seared to the teaching of Holy Spirit as we OBEY.

Here's how it's going to go at the Judgement:

YOU: Lord, look at all we did to shape Christianity.

Jesus says, the ONLY SHAPE I asked for is for you all to be conformed to my Image.

YOU: Yes we discussed that and came up with a plan. Haven't we done marvelous things in you name?

Jesus says: Only those who DO teh will of my Father...not discuss what I asked you to do.

Did YOU do what I ASKED?

YOU: Well, we discussed it for almost 2000 years now. We keep changing it....

Jesus says: Get out! I never knew you!
---kathr4453 on 12/23/10


It sounds like & No doubt that' that serious historian was here, 2nd. Tim.3 v 7.
---Lawrence on 12/23/10


People today have still bought into the false idea that they are too stupid to read and understand scripture.

Isn't that what the original so called church fathers?? brainwashed people then to believe...telling the little people ONLY THEY can understand and will pass along what THEY ALONE can understand. (The "I've read more books than you" mentality)

I hear this over and over on line here...those who have read this and that have some grandiose idea they alone are used by God to pass down to
the little people the truth.

They still have that RCC mentality going on, having no clue what the Individual Priesthood of the believer is, being a MAJOR issue of the Reformers, and falling into the same trappings.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/10


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\\In my experience the RCC & Orthodox (generally) seem much more comfortable discussing and examining that history because they view the creeds that were composed by uninspired 'fathers' of equal importance to the bible itself.\\

It's these very same uninspired fathers whom you speak of with such contempt that God worked through to reveal what should be in the Bible to start with.

And what exactly in the classical creeds goes against the Bible? Please be specific.
---Cluny on 12/23/10


"Church history...God's plan of salvation...not important to salvation." kathr4453

Absolutely agree. But since much of what is taught from the pulpit today would be foreign to 1st century Christians, learning when those particular ideas developed, influenced by well intentioned apologists, can be enlightening.

In my experience the RCC & Orthodox (generally) seem much more comfortable discussing and examining that history because they view the creeds that were composed by uninspired 'fathers' of equal importance to the bible itself.

Protestants (again IME) like to believe that all facets of their modern faith find support in God's word itself and they ignore the very history that shaped it.
---scott on 12/23/10


A thorough study of the works of Justine Martyr , Apostolic Fathers collection and writings of Eusebius Pamphilus should gut one to the time of Constantine after that you would likely have to use RCC source documents. Much of this information used to be available to public Internet access at online seminary libraries but regrettably most institutions now limit access to registered students. I had down load a significant part of the collection to diskettes an number of years ago but modern computer have no previsions to reading that media unless one purchases external USB diskette readers.
---Blogger9211 on 12/23/10


Rod4him, since church history did not CHANGE God's plan of salvation it is not important to one's salvation.

OT History is what is important.

Chuch History for the first 5 centuries lets us know WHY so many are confused to this day.

God's plan of salvation and our Life In Christ is perfectly stated and explained through God's word.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/10


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A serious historian once said that the average person actually knows very little about the past in anything, and especially in Church history, but has definite ideas about it.

Lawrence proved it by his post.
---Cluny on 12/22/10


The Early Church Acts 2 v 38.

About 300 yr's later, 2nd.Cor.11v's 14 - 15 gave to man, the Man - made relig org's churches begining with the trin rcc. The rcc gave birth to her daughters churches, how ever the correct order is, the cath church, luth, presby, naz etc trin churches. Rev. 17 v's 4 - 6.

The Remnant of The Early Church, Acts 2 v 38 lives today in 2010 & until the rapture takes place.
---Lawrence on 12/22/10


It is in a lot of ways, because the steps of the Apostles and those that followed their teachings are a starting point to the line of history that continues to this day. They are a bench mark if you will.

I will say that their witness apart from the New Testament is not crucial, but in a supplemental way helpful.

Important is a stretch in my opinion, what's important is the discipline of being a Bible reader, to continually hide his word in your heart and be affirmed of his grace and goodness.
---Pharisee on 12/22/10


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