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Explain John 12:32

What did Jesus mean by "all" in John 12:32?

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 ---Leej on 12/29/10
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I honestly dont understand what harm there is to teaching that Christ died for every man and that God wants to save everyone as his word says.
---CraigA on 1/7/1

Craig, no harm at all. Since we do not believe in universal salvation, it will be only those who receive His Gift of eternal life.

But you are correct. We do put down scripture and it is ignored, and then after we do, we're still accused on not putting down scripture. If it's not that, then we are accused of twisting scripture, or some silly excuse.

Somehow the truth that Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, and that men who reject Christ will be judged on REFUSING the Gospel truth seems to be a threat to these ELITE secret society elect.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/11


Kathryn//Do you actually believe God our Father cannot explain to His Children?

Good for you. The problem as I see it is that we believe God must think like we do in our concept of what is fair.

Howbeit, scripture is very plain that God is sovereign and can do whatever He wishes with His creation and that is the crux of Calvin's teachings.

Thro some may pity poor old Judas who betrayed Christ or poor old Pharaoh who probably died in the drink with his soldiers and that at the command of God.
---leej on 1/7/11


...nor can you provide any rational that women should be inferior to men, I suggest you shut up.
---leej on 1/7/11

You would like for scripture to shut up you mean. Your idea of inferior is twisted. It is not my order... GOD didn't arrange things to suit you. Thank GOD.
Fulfill you position quit mewling....it is not becoming.
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

My mother raised me to fear GOD and love the special gifts of women who are women. Not women who are men. My Dad taught me to be a man not a girlie boy.
---Trav on 1/7/11


Trav ... I was always sure you were male, from the way you argued your case!

But some othjers has addressed you as if you were female, so I thought it would be a good idea the make it clear

I have never heard of Alan as being anthing other than a male's name ... and so it is in my case!
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/7/11


I am sure that after Kathryn studies the scripture references that make up TULIP, the more she will understand this doctrine.
---leej on 1/7/11
leej, I understand it COMPLETELY without any TULIP. The LORD Himself explained it to me...and then some, more than Calvin explain to you.

Do you actually believe God our Father cannot explain to His Children?
---kathr4453 on 1/7/11




trav //1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

The word "effeminate" is often translated as "sexually immoral" and that is one thing I am not.

You do a disservice to fellow Christians by labeling those who are not sexual bias as sexual immoral.

Since you cannot point to a single verse of scripture that women should not hold church offices, nor can you provide any rational that women should be inferior to men, I suggest you shut up.
---leej on 1/7/11


---Hardly no one puts any Scripture down, only talk, angry comments, and a lot of twisting of Scriptures.
---Mark_V. on 1/6/11

What about the ones who do put down scripture and it is ignored or the meaning of simple words that a child can understand are changed to fit a different doctrine?

For example if one claims Jesus died for only some and I post a verse saying he died for the sins of every man and that he tasted death for "every" man.

I honestly dont understand what harm there is to teaching that Christ died for every man and that God wants to save everyone as his word says.
---CraigA on 1/7/11


OK We've established now tha Leej is male.

But what about Trav? ... I've always thought him male, but Leej thinks she is female ---alan8566_of_uk on 1/7/11

My kids call me Dad. My Grandkids PaPa. You can call me Mr. if you like.
Lets establish alan....Mr or Ms?

lee cattily established that objecting/uncomfortable with GOD's order in the universe he will make his own neutal order. Which actually falls below both masculine and feminine orders.
Many preachers now fall into this category.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
---Trav on 1/7/11


//You admit freely you would have no problem being under the scriptural/gov authority of a woman....which places you in a specific effem category biblically speaking.

From a Biblical standpoint we can see that there were women even in OT times that had what it took to get the job done.

Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

So we do see leadership with women in OT times.

As to the New Testament, I would maintain that Paul was addressing specific problems with a specific group of church, when he stated let the women be silent in the church was not not a universal injunction.

Unfortunately the culture often defines roles of both men and women.
---leej on 1/7/11


//Election is only recognize after you have been saved. No one who is lost cares about election, salvation, or Christ.

It is more accurate to state that one realizes he or she is of the elect only upon accepting what is confirmed in Scripture.

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I am sure that after Kathryn studies the scripture references that make up TULIP, the more she will understand this doctrine.
---leej on 1/7/11




trav - as I stated previously, I am the father of 3 grown children, one flies airbuses, one is a nurse, and the other with the Marine Corps in Afghanistan.
---leej on 1/6/11


Thanks to your Kids.
Please forgive addressing you as a woman.
You've never established you were a man. You admit freely you would have no problem being under the scriptural/gov authority of a woman....which places you in a specific effem category biblically speaking. Your Political correctness reveals effeminate confusion.
Isaiah 3:12
As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
---Trav on 1/7/11


Kathr, No one who commits his life to Christ has any idea he is one of the Elect. Election is only recognize after you have been saved. No one who is lost cares about election, salvation, or Christ.

---Mark_V. on 1/6/11

I remember when the Lord asked me for my whole life, after I was saved. I totally surrendered it once and for all. I learned then that Christ was the head of the Elect Church of which, I as a member of His Body was infact elect to reign and rule with Him during the 1000 year reign.

I also learned too I was a remnant( as only Jews are a remnant ) according to the election of GRACE, and that God had not cast off His People.


---kathr4453 on 1/7/11


OK We've established now tha Leej is male.

But what about Trav? ... I've always thought him male, but Leej thinks she is female
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/7/11


trav - as I stated previously, I am the father of 3 grown children, one flies airbuses, one is a nurse, and the other with the Marine Corps in Afghanistan.

And I can see that you continue to label me as a woman as you obviously have a problem with women that most mature people do not.

Having worked as an equal employment opportunity counselor with the federal government, it has been easy for me to see that women with talent are often wasted because of the stupidity of gender bias in those who simply are ignorant.

Sorry I do not buy into your stupidity.
---leej on 1/6/11


Kathr, No one who commits his life to Christ has any idea he is one of the Elect. Election is only recognize after you have been saved. No one who is lost cares about election, salvation, or Christ.

Tom"
Coming to Christ should be the same for everyone. You have to have a contrite heart. Contrition is true and godly repentance. It is genuine. It includes a deep remorse for having offended God. The contrite person openly and fully confesses his sins with no attempt to excuse it or justify it. When repentance is offered to God in a spirit of true contrition, He promises to forgive us and restore us to fellowship with Him.
---Mark_V. on 1/6/11


Craig, I do not brag about been one of the elect. I never have. I thank my Lord and Savior for having mercy on me. What I have done is written the Truth to everyone, wrote down Scripture, defended the faith, and send it out. God does not require me to convince anyone. God requires me to put down the Truth. When the Truth goes out, it accomplishes the purpose for which God wanted it out. The Truth is His Word, which I even write down for you, because many are lazy to look the passages up. I answer questions with Scripture. Hardly no one puts any Scripture down, only talk, angry comments, and a lot of twisting of Scriptures.
---Mark_V. on 1/6/11


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Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify, and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.



Who is your teacher?
Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
---TheSeg on 1/6/11


//the gift of teaching is a GIFT of the SPIRIT just as Prophesy, Evangelism, pastors.

Very true, and the believer who would grow spiritually would avail himself or herself of those that have the gift of teaching.

What you state about history being slanted is very true. Take for instance, the disgusting views posted on this forum by those who follow olde Ellen White. She blames Roman Catholicism and brands everyone who is not an Adventist as belonging to a step-sister of the Roman Church. Such slanted history can only keep the truth from those who believe themselves to be intelligent Christians as well as fostor dissension.
---leej on 1/6/11


Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God, and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Apparently Ms. Trav is under the belief that she already knows everything ...---leej on 1/6/11

Your scripture makes my point again. You have need of meat (milk) of the word. As a woman...you are not designated to teach....a scriptural second point.
I've only rebuked your non scriptural wordy commentary of men with scripture Heb 8:8....as a man.
No I don't know everything...but with two or more witnesses in scripture I can plainly see urerror. U make Scripture your enemy...not Trav.
---Trav on 1/6/11


I love history. Yet I find that History is actually subject to the authors interpretation of an event. Take Queen Elizabeth for example. If a Protestant Historian is telling the story is quite different than if a Catholic is telling the story. ITs SLANTED one way or another. Take Arafat. He was the worlds first terrorist, but historians have lionized and sanitized that man, and then he got the Nobel Peace prize, for whatmurdering Jews during the Olympics???
History is in the eye of the beholder. One mans hero is another mans monster!

KNOW your History. Read the OT, it's all you need to UNDERSTANDING the New Testament!!!That is with the help of the REAL teacher..the Holy Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 1/6/11


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While that may be true of the basics of the faith, the meat of the Word requires studying and one gains by studying under those who are called of God to be teachers.
---leej on 1/6/11

leej, the gift of teaching is a GIFT of the SPIRIT just as Prophesy, Evangelism, pastors.

It is not of our flesh, or self effort that makes one a teacher.

Paul said, though you have 10,000 teachers, be ye followers of me the way I am of Christ.

PAUL TAUGHT out of his own personal life with Christ.

On the day of Pentecost UNLEARNED MEN as Peter spoke, as God spoke through them.

---kathr44553 on 1/6/11


alan8566_of_uk And YES, God has foreordained that some will be teachers in His church.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, ...

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God, and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Apparently Ms. Trav is under the belief that she already knows everything and hence does not need anyone to teach her.

While that may be true of the basics of the faith, the meat of the Word requires studying and one gains by studying under those who are called of God to be teachers.
---leej on 1/6/11


//God makes us sinners, makes us stupid, just so He can punish us for being as He decided and commanded we would be

According to the WCF, God is not the author of sin. It is His desire all repent and turn to Him (Acts 17:30).

They (our 1st parents) being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceeds all actual transgressions.WCF VI:3,4

However your solution is to acknowledge your need for a Savior as you cannot in yourself save yourself.
---leej on 1/6/11


MarkV, no one is arguing one need repent/believe to be saved.

I also don't see any publicans here on line who say they are not sinners.

A Pharisee is one who, like Paul before conversion, believed himself blameless under Law.

Your argument is not with those who have faith in Christ, but with Pharisees.

Can you show any examples of one begging for forgiveness to be saved .

Repent/believe is not begging. One does not beg for a gift. Then it would not be a GIFT. One receives the Gift with humility.
---Tom on 1/6/11


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So MarkV, does that mean you all have to BEG for unmerited favor? You have to BEG to be elected?

Is that clearly stipulated in the TULIP?
---kathr4453 on 1/6/11


Leej ... you say to Trav "trav//Using other men's discourse to explain scripture" (Just as you do when you rely on the self contradictory Westminster Confession).

"You have to be pretty stupid not (the WC says this stupidy is foreordained by God, so why blame Trav?) to benefit from someone else training and experience"

Your approach in learning scripture is much like re-inventing the wheel. You waste time (again, as foreordained by God)

God makes us sinners, makes us stupid, just so He cvan punish us for being as He decided and commanded we would be
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/6/11


MarkV, so you've placed your faith in being (not a they, who don't understand like you).

So all the WE's are those who understand like you, and all the THEY's are those who don't understand like you.

Even Mormons, JW, Scientologists, Christian Science believe that. That proves absolutey nothing. I believe this is how cults identify one another.

I'm Saved because of what Christ did on Calvary. Only GOD can forgive sin...that is correct. I'm incapable of forgiving myself, or imputing the righteousness of Christ to Myself. ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT!!
---kathr4453 on 1/6/11


Tom, you can disagree with me all you want but if you do not have a contrite heart you are not saved. A person has to humble himself to be saved. He has to acknowledge that he is a sinner and deserving of nothing. It is to repudiate his own will and be ruled by His will. But is the sinner willing to take such and attitude before God? No. For in the first place, he does not realize the danger of his situation. They will not acknowledge that their righteousness are as filthy rags but, like the Pharisee, will thank God they are not as the Publican. They are not ready to receive Christ as their Savior and Lord, for they are unwilling to part with their idols. Left to himself, the natural man is so depraved at heart that he cannot come to Christ.
---Mark_V. on 1/6/11


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trav//Using other men's discourse to explain scripture.

You have to be pretty stupid not to benefit from someone else training and experience.

..... there are many issues that are not that plain in scripture.
---leej on 1/5/

You've made my point again ...missy. Training & experience. The OT Prophets experience negate all your teachers/teaching. The Apostles? Same. When you can't hear or see Christ himself in scripture.....adios senorita's.
Proverbs 14:1
Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.
---Trav on 1/6/11


Kathr, I say they, because they do not understand like you. I understand so I know who I am and know I am depraved. I can never measure up to God. I didn't come to Christ with no faith or no conviction like you did. I came to Christ by the Father drawing me to Him. Giving me faith to believe, and a contrite heart, for I was not worthy of anything other then death for my rebellion. I ask for forgiveness and He forgave me. You told us you came to Christ with no faith, no conviction, hoping you could get in and getting them later. To the day you have not gotten them, because your commitment did not come with a contrite heart. And here you argue about how great your abilities are. "Without God "I" can do nothing."
---Mark_V. on 1/5/11


trav//Using other men's discourse to explain scripture.

You have to be pretty stupid not to benefit from someone else training and experience.

Your approach in learning scripture is much like re-inventing the wheel. You waste time and remain confused as there are many issues that are not that plain in scripture.

You comments are of little use in way of contributing to the topic at hand as it is obvious you have little or no training or education in these areas.
---leej on 1/5/11


Mark V ... From your latest posts .... "It is to repudiate his own will and be ruled by His. How can man come to Christ proud he has all kinds of abilities when he is speaking of his own powers? Proud of what he already has"

But Mark, that repudiation is a matter of FreeWill
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/5/11


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MarkV, you're totally confused. Christ died for the sin/forgiveness of the elect. You are saying,then we beg for forgiveness?

So, Jesus died on a cross for the forgiveness of sin, but you have to beg to receive forgiveness, not believe to receive?

As I look through scripture at all the examples shown us from those who received salvation, I do not see any one begging for forgiveness after they are saved, or even before.

What you are teaching MarkV is the false doctrine of Lordship Salvation. A false doctrine that has even crept into the Calvinist doctrine. You will not find this in the TULIP, or the Westminster Confession of Faith.

I see many different Calvinist interpretations. I disagree with yours.
---Tom on 1/5/11


--why do you persist in trying to convince us when we are not predestined to understand?--Aka

Excellent question!

The only answer I can come up with is that Mark wants everyone to know he is one of Gods elect. It appears to be a form of bragging.
---CraigA on 1/5/11


Confusion? what confusion? I believe myself to be well established in the faith being one that is teachable.
And what about yourself, are you teachable? Plain lazy?
---leej on 1/3/11

Confusion...yes I recognize it from my own experience. Using other men's discourse to explain scripture.
Scripture explains scripture much better and highlights all other men's interpretations faulty.
Would/will I read other mens writings....yes.....but, they must have witnesses scriptural and multiples of to reveal credability.
You have never offered these in your post to defend a position.
Comfort zone? All scripture.
Lazy? Dealing with you, has not shown profit, yet....
---Trav on 1/5/11


Aka, I am not trying to convince you of anything. You already have that hope. I write what Scripture Truth is. Been predestined or not, does not effect your salvation now. So I do not know why the comments. How can pointing out what constitutes the total inability of man before God be wrong? What you are saying is for me to stop talking about the Truth. So I explained "no Hope" and that bothered you who are already saved. Why?
To come to Christ for life, is for the sinner to feel and acknowledge that he is utterly destitute of any claim upon God's favor, is to see himself as "without strength" lost and undone, is to admit that he is deserving of nothing but eternal death, thus taking side with God against himself.
---Mark_V. on 1/5/11


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Aka 2: it is for him to cast himself into the dust before God, and humbly ask for Divine mercy. A sinner has to abandon his own righteousness and be ready to be made the righteousness of God in Christ. It is to repudiate his own will and be ruled by His. How can man come to Christ proud he has all kinds of abilities when he is speaking of his own powers? Proud of what he already has.
No Aka, he has to see his transgression against God and beg for forgiveness and to unreservedly receive the Lord Jesus as his Savior and Lord, as his All in all. If he hold's on to the believe he himself has a hope he does not have a contrite broken heart. Why then is it wrong? Everyone needs to know. How can they bring the good news without the Truth?
---Mark_V. on 1/5/11


"NO Hope" How hard can that be to understand? They continue to reject the Truth of Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 1/4/11

How can those without hope understand if they are predestined not to?

why do you persist in trying to convince us when we are not predestined to understand? who is it that is rejecting the Truth. You cannot reject something that you cannot grasp.

maybe you need to let the Lord decide who is rejecting the Truth and show some love, patience, kindness through the Spirit instead of sarcasm and pride and superiority.
---aka on 1/4/11


MarkV // Every descendant of Adam who is born is condemned already.

The bad theology is really one of works. Simply put the good go to heaven and the bad go to hell. Being raised between a Roman Catholic neighbor on one side and a Seventh Day Adventist on the other, That is basically what i was taught before I learned that our righteousness was viewed by God as filthy rags and if we did not acknowledge that our righteousness was in Christ, there was no hope for us.

In the Left Behind series of books and videos, we see babies missing, supposedly having been ruptured because of their innocence. But I can agree one is born into the sin of Adam and stands condemned.
---leej on 1/4/11


Did Judas have a choice? Yes! What he did was of his own free will.


---leej on 1/3/11

So leej, you do believe in free will. So do you and markv have the same bible?
---kathr4453 on 1/4/11


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Leej, I really don't know what Bible this guys are reading. Every descendant of Adam who is born is condemned already. They are all heading to hell, and Scripture tells us they are "without hope" no hope at all. ---Mark_V. on 1/4/11

MarkV, this is the state of ALL including yourself. You kep saying THEY, THEM. You claim you were some sort of privledged to have an awakening, before hearing the Gospel...it's just something that happened...you just woke up one morning and said GEE, I have no Idea what happened to me, I'm awake to God...

That is not scriptural markV. That didn't even happen with Paul.
---kathr4453 on 1/4/11


Leej, I really don't know what Bible this guys are reading. Every descendant of Adam who is born is condemned already. They are all heading to hell, and Scripture tells us they are "without hope" no hope at all. If they had the ability to change their own hearts and come to Christ, they would have a hope. But they have zip of hope. Paul said, there is no one good, not one, and no one who seeks God. There is no hope in them. What they need is for the Holy Spirit to bring them alive to Christ. Convict them of sin, and grant them faith to believe in the Lord. Otherwise they have "NO Hope" How hard can that be to understand? They continue to reject the Truth of Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 1/4/11


trav //1 Corinthians 14:34-36 ,I agree with you that if you female and a member of the Corinthian-like church, you should in the church keep silent.

As to learning, much of what I believe much of what I read has been directed by God's Spirit as my understanding has grown.

Confusion? what confusion? I believe myself to be well established in the faith being one that is teachable.

And what about yourself, are you teachable? Or since you talk of Ecclesiastes 12:12
are you afraid if you learn you will fall out of your comfort zone? Plain lazy?
---leej on 1/3/11


Alan8566 - //What that says then is that God ordained and ordered everything that would happened and what everyone would do, and yet do it in such a way that those people were responsible for deeds and behaviour over which they had no control.

Suggest that you obtain a copy of the Westminster Confession of Faith that has the scriptural references and study it for yourself as the discussion is fairly long.


Article III.1 speaks that God has ordained whatever comes to pass, whereas He is not the author of sin, does not force man to do what they do not want to do in the way of sin.
---leej on 1/3/11


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As to Adolf Hitler & genocide, read Revelation about the seal, bowl, & trumpet judgements where God permitted (or even ordained) the destruction of most of the human race.

Sorry but God is not the big loving pansy in the sky who would never permits evil.
---leej on 1/3/11

Alan, what leej fails to unerstand is God is going to punish everyone who worshiped and bowed down to the beast. Hitler was thought to be the anti-christ, and look what Tom posted..who bowed down to Hitler and aided him in murder?

History has a way of repeating itself!!
---kathr4453 on 1/3/11


//We do know Judas did not care for Jesus, or care for the lost.

And God fore-ordained that Judas would do exactly what he did that the scripture may be fulfilled in that Christ would be delivered up to die for our sins.

Did Judas have a choice? Yes! What he did was of his own free will.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
---leej on 1/3/11


Why? As one that has studied the Bible and its derived doctrines for the past several decades, even taking formal courses in it, I have come to realize that there are different schools of thought on various theological topics.

So sweety, I hope you can grasp my position on this subjects.
---leej on 1/3/11

Your scriptural confusion is easy to grasp....and easier to let go of. How many years/decades do you estimate u have left to study/wallow in all mens doctrines?
Ecclesiastes 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36
---Trav on 1/3/11


Janet, I agree. It may very well be that one in ever 12 who claim the father gave them to Jesus are in fact lost, But will be used for God's purpose, ending up like Judas.

We do know Judas did not care for Jesus, or care for the lost.

I do as a matter of fact see much of Judas charactor in many professing they were given to Jesus by the Father.

But will they be able to answer back to God saying...why have you made me thus? NOPE!!
---kathr4453 on 1/3/11


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Coincidence?

There were more people convicted after The Second World War for collaboration with the German Nazis in The Netherlands. Some 419 per 100,000 people in The Netherlands were convicted for collaboration with the German Nazis These figures can be found in "The Resistance vs. Vichy," pages 186-187, published in 1968 by Chatto and Windus, London and New York. Most of the supporters of the Dutch Nazi Party, the National-Socialist League or NSB led by Anton Adriaan Mussert, were found in Protestant small-farming districts in the southwest of The Netherlands, were hardline Dutch Calvinist. Theologian, Franciscus Gomarus 1563-1641,who came up with the doctrine of supralapsarian predestination, was anti-Jewish.
---Tom on 1/3/11


Leej ... What that says then is that God ordained and ordered everything that would happened and what everyone would do, and yet do it in such a way that those people were responsible for deeds and behaviour over which they had no control.

It's just words, Leej which are self contradictory.

It's like saying to a prisoner in the dock ... "I know you did not do it, but you are guilty so I am sentencing you to punishment"
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/3/11


Tom//Let us remember John 3:16 does not say, For God so loved the Elect. Jesus used the word elect in several passages, yet did not use it here. There must have been a reason.

Scripture must be interpreted with Scripture.

Since John 6:44 states -

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 3:16 makes sense in that only those who are led to believe will not perish but have everlasting life.

Remember salvation is wholly of the Lord, not something within us that enables us to convert and save ourselves.

As a natural man, dead in sin, we are not able by our own strength to convert ourselves or to prepare ourselves thereunto.
---leej on 1/3/11


Tom //God is not in the business of genocide.

The following from Westminster Confession of Faith fairly well represents my position.

God from all eternity by the most wise & holy counsel of his own will, freely & unchangeably ordain whatsoever come to pass, yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or continency of 2d causes taken away, but rather established. (III,1.)

As to Adolf Hitler & genocide, read Revelation about the seal, bowl, & trumpet judgements where God permitted (or even ordained) the destruction of most of the human race.

Sorry but God is not the big loving pansy in the sky who would never permits evil.
---leej on 1/3/11


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trav, //howbeit, their (the Puritans)interpretation thereof.
Your own statement above should be your light woman.
---
Why? As one that has studied the Bible and its derived doctrines for the past several decades, even taking formal courses in it, I have come to realize that there are different schools of thought on various theological topics. To me, it is importanat to recognize their strengths & weaknesses. And their strengths are derived primarily from their arguments from scripture.

The Puritians believed Christ changed the Jewish sabbath to Sunday, but I believe Calvin has more support from scripture in believing it was abrogated.

So sweety, I hope you can grasp my position on this subjects.
---leej on 1/3/11


Radical Calvinism is a splinter group from the doctrine of Calvinism. As a Calvinist, I am ashamed to be associated with the name for fear of being grouped with the radicals.
Leej, youre admitting and associating God with Hitler, and to many is appalling to say the least. God is not in the business of genocide.
As we witness genocide around the world today, God forbid we have to witness genocide in our churches at the hands of radical Calvinism.
Let us remember John 3:16 does not say, For God so loved the Elect. Jesus used the word elect in several passages, yet did not use it here. There must have been a reason.
---Tom on 1/3/11


howbeit, their interpretation thereof.
---leej on 1/1/11

Your own statement above should be your light woman.

You are placing way too much faith in tangled up interpretations. And getting further confused. The truth is simple and witnessed reliably and multiple times scripture....it is yourself... doubts, fears and logic standing in the way of it.
---Trav on 1/3/11


John 6:37 does not imply what Calvinists teach. John 17:12, "Those whom You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition." So, Jesus plainly states that, out of the twelve apostles whom the Father had given Him, there was one who was not able to be kept, which was Judas Iscariot.

According to the Scriptures, Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, yet he is called the "son of perdition", and is certainly a lost soul.
---Janet on 1/3/11


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//Leej, nor is God Hitler in the sky, picking and choosing who will live and who will die. If that were so, then Hitler himself would be the personification God Himself.

Scripture very plainly provides an answer to your statement.

Romans 9:20ff But who are you, O [wo]man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

Sorry, but God is sovereign in all that He does.

While salvation is wholly of God, if His Spirit indwells you, then you are one of the Elect.

You need to purge yourself of that Arminianism.
---leej on 1/2/11


Leej, nor is God Hitler in the sky, picking and choosing who will live and who will die. If that were so, then Hitler himself would be the personification God Himself

It is true , man cannot die and shed his own blood to atone for his own sin, but those who place their faith in Jesus Christ who shed HIS OWN sinless spotless blood for our sin and the sin of the whole world will be saved.

That alone is How God saves sinners. To say otherwise leej is to say God used some sort of eugenicists to make his selection the way Hitler decided who was acceptable and who was not..

Calvin's THEORY of salvation is no different than HITLER's evil practices.
---kathr4453 on 1/2/11


trav//Calvin was blind and has some blind followers then. You use his quote and kneel to calvy.

Apparently a lack of knowledge on your part as the Westminster confession of faith was a product of the Puritans in England around 1646.

Everything and I mean everything in the Confessions is based solely upon scripture. howbeit, their interpretation thereof.

In any case, do you not agree with the statement that salvation is wholly of God, not man?
---leej on 1/1/11


Calvins commentary ..Yet I agree with Chrysostom, who says Christ used the universal term, all, because the Church was to be gathered equally from among Gentiles and Jews, according to that saying, There shall be one shepherd, and one sheepfold, (#Joh 10:16).
---leej on 12/29/10
Calvin was blind and has some blind followers then. You use his quote and kneel to calvy. When scripture plainly states who are sheep several hundred times. Iknow, I know GOD's OT prophets are not calvy cemetary/seminary approved.....except to sheep of course.
Ezekiel 36:37
Thus saith the Lord GOD, I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them, I will increase them with men like a flock.
---Trav on 1/1/11


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The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness, drew all men to Himself for their eternal salvation.-Ignatius
Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.
Deu 30:19 ...I have set before you life and death...therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way, and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
---micha9344 on 1/1/11


kathr4453//And look, we don't need anyone commentary to explain it...is's very simple.

And that in the opinion of Biblical scholars is a doctrine most plain in Scritpure, namely, that God died only for the Elect - those whom He had called to be saved.

Westminster confessions of Faith supports the following fully by scripture alone:

Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost ALL ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation, so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is NOT able by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

Those that disagree are really fallen into a heresy known as Arminianism.
---leej on 1/1/11


In JOHN 12:32, when YAHUSHUA (JESUS) said "all" men, He was referring to "all of those" who the Father YAHUVEH gives Him. For YAHUSHUA prayed to His Father in JOHN 17: "I pray for them (the Redeemed): I pray not for the world (the Rebellious), but, for THEM which Thou hast given Me, For THEY are Thine. And, all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine...Keep, through Thine own Name, those whom Thou hast given Me,...Those that Thou gavest Me I have kept,...Neither pray I for these alone, but, for THEM ALSO which SHALL BELIEVE on Me through their word:..." "All" does not mean "every person ever born", it means "ALL who believe and follow GOD".
---Gordon on 1/1/11


John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


When I be lifted up is lifting up the truth of the Gospel that Christ died for ALL men.

And look, we don't need anyone commentary to explain it...is's very simple.

John 17 also categorized two groups..the disciples God gave Jesus while on earth, and John 17:20 those who believe on Him through Their word...their meaning the first group.Thosw who were EYEWITNESSES of Christ and his death and resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 1/1/11


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MarkV,

i believe that salvation is instantaneous and i believe it is a process, i believe that Jesus was 100% man and was 100% deity, and i believe in predestination and i believe in choice. Do you know why?

There are scriptures to support both extremes. in God's economy, 1+1=2 and 1+1=1.

i believe that, without controversy, Godliness is a mystery.

Also, without controversy, I believe i am not instructed to remain in endless debate.

to many, the defense of some scripture has become more important than the whole Scripture itself.

To me, predestination without the balance of freewill is like an alcoholic saying it is genetic and therefore there is no power to choose.
---aka on 12/31/10


I totally agree with this answer,"It means what it says, ALL MEN and I say that confidently, because while all men will be drawn, not all men can be lead and surrender their heart's pride." Given by Pharisee.

---mima on 12/30/10


Aka, in answer to your quote of John 12:35.
"Then Jesus said, 'A little while longer the light is with you.".
Here Jesus was referring to Himself, for He is the Light they had before them.
"Walk while you have the Light, lest darkness overtake you"
If they didn't walk with Him, the conclusion was they would be in darkness.
"Although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him" You know why? v. 40, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them" They did not believe because God had hardened their hearts.
---Mark_V. on 12/30/10


Christian compare it with Matthew 10:34-36, Here Jesus claims that he will be a point of division between everyone, this is more in keeping with drawing all men to himself, and as I said, even as all men will be drawn not all will be chosen and given to Christ.
If the lost aren't drawn and given the opportunity to reject then there is no cause for their damnation, but it is as the scripture says ALL MEN, not just the elect.
The fact is it's an ages old question, what's the meaning of life, why are we here, and eventually everyone comes to Christ in that search most however cannot and will not believe.
---Pharisee on 12/30/10


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You guys are looking for eternal security in Christ in the wrong area. It should be based on Gods promise for those who exercise faith in Jesus Christ and not in an elitist election that you have no part of.

God desires ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Not just a select few. If a man resists that calling he has only himself to blame.

It is YOUR faith that is required. That is why the word says we will not be ashamed if we place that faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 9:33 & 10:11)

Your faith in Him allows him to save you by HIS faith which was shown by His obedience unto death.
---Craig on 12/30/10


"All" by any and all definitions usually means "all" - there is no difference. This means ALL people will be drawn to Christ, when He rules and reigns at the 1000 year reign from Jerusalem. In other words EVERY knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
---Leslie on 12/30/10


Compare John 12:32 with John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

In other words Christ declaration is consistent when "all man" refers clearly to those whom the Father has given to Him. And truth be told, the Father has never given "everyone" to Christ as some might want to believe and suggest. For if it was so, Hades will be empty and Heaven will be full.
---christan on 12/30/10


It means what it says, ALL MEN and I say that confidently, because while all men will be drawn, not all men can be lead and surrender their heart's pride.

The spectacle of Jesus Christ's crucifixion has drawn all men from the scoffers to the super saints, all have taken notice and none remain neutral. Even those that try to remain neutral are met with the understanding that they're neutrality is their rejection of his leading.

No one who meets the lamb on the cross walks away the same, it's the single greatest thing ever done and to this time and eternity testify.
---Pharisee on 12/29/10


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when he rises physically on the cross and spiritually from the grave, He will draw us all to judgment.
---aka on 12/29/10


John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Scripture must be interpreted by scripture,'all men' could not meant all people will be saved eternally, only the Elect in Christ.

Calvins commentary -I will draw all men to myself. The word all, which he employs, must be understood to refer to the children of God, who belong to his flock. Yet I agree with Chrysostom, who says Christ used the universal term, all, because the Church was to be gathered equally from among Gentiles and Jews, according to that saying, There shall be one shepherd, and one sheepfold, (#Joh 10:16).
---leej on 12/29/10


For all that will come to Him.
But, All will not come unto Him.

This for sure, All Will bow their knee to Him.
---Lawrence on 12/29/10


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