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Gospel Based Upon Genesis

Another poster said on a blog ... "the one and only gospel is based solely upon the events of the first few chapters of Genesis". Thoughts please.

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 ---alan8566_of_uk on 1/2/11
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MarkV, I disagree with what you said to Warwick.
If God was willing that some should parish..
1- He would have said it
2- He would not have given the 1st prophecy/sign of provision in Gen 3:15.
3- most important, God would not have sent his son to die for the sins of the world, which by the way was set before the foundation of the world.
You argue yourself to death to prove God does not love all of his creation when that is not true. If he didn't he would not have given his only son to put on flesh and die for the sins of the world.
What you say totally contradicts scripture because you believe in the "elect"- which is false and a heresy.
---ginger on 1/31/11


Warwick, another comment that I disagree with you is when you said,
"God is not willing that anyone should spend eternity unsaved therefore separated from Him."
If God was not willing that anyone spend eternity separated from Him, He would not have been willing to put the curse that separated man from Him. He was willing to do that, and could have punished Adam and Eve another way. He could not have been testing them either to see what they would do, since, not only does God know everything, but foreordained Christ from the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sin. Just a thought to your statement.
---Mark_V. on 1/31/11


///This was accomplished by Jesus' death and resurrection and will be completed in His timing. In our time reality is is to come but in God's reality it is just as if it has been accomplished. As Jesus says He is the beginning and the end. Note He does not say I will be the end.
---Warwick on 1/21/11 //

To this I agree.
---charl on 1/30/11


Cluny this has been done to death. Pun intended.

It has been explained numerous times that the death we speak of is the death of 'nepesh' (sentient) creatures. Not including plants.

Now you are saying plants die but wasn't it you recently who said plants are not alive?

You believe non-human species died before the fall, but Scripture, says sin brought death and suffering into the whole of creation.

The cause of Noah's flood was man's sin, but both man and animals died. Sin distorts and destroys eyerything.
---Warwick on 1/29/11


\\I have no clue why anyone would not believe that physical death came after the fall. We know Adam died a physical death 930 years later, and at the moment of the fall, he died spiritually\\

Physical death for human certainly did.

But I believe that non-human species died before the fall.

Plants certainly die when they are eaten.

This should answer Warwick's objection, too.
---Cluny on 1/28/11




MarkV, those who will not believe it act this way because they have accepted long-ages/evolution (LA/E) which obviously has death, disease and suffering aeons before man evolved (in evolutionary terms).

Conversely Scripture states death entered the whole of creation (Romans 8:20-22)and because of sin.

Further 1 Corinthians 15:26 says "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." But in their LA/E thinking death can't be an enemy because death of animals and man is in the fossil record, which they believe predates Adam.

Therefore they are locked into a nonBiblical view which stops them from accepting that physical death came after sin. They thereby undermine the gospel!
---Warwick on 1/28/11


I have no clue why anyone would not believe that physical death came after the fall. We know Adam died a physical death 930 years later, and at the moment of the fall, he died spiritually. To "die" has the basic idea of separation. At the moment of their sin they died spiritually, but because God was merciful they did not die physically until later (5:5) There is no reason for his prohibition other than it was a test. The tree of life was a real tree, with special properties to sustain eternal life. it was placed in the midst of the garden, where Adam could observed it, and its fruit perhaps eaten by him thus sustaining his life (2:16). There was no prohibition from eating of that tree of life before the fall.
---Mark_V. on 1/28/11


Hey Cluny you quote Scripture as truth when it suits you and reject it when it doesn't. How can death be an enemy if it is as old as evolution? And that method which God used to 'create.'

Your story doesn't make sense either by Scripture or logic.
---Warwick on 1/28/11


\\My query is why, if it was a complete remedy, did He not do away with physical death?\\

Eventually He will.

St. Paul said, "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
---Cluny on 1/27/11


My query is why, if it was a complete remedy, did He not do away with physical death?

It leads me to doubt that physical was introduced because of the Fall
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/21/11

I'm curious for more detail on your doubt.

Here's how I see it. He died...he arose. The cure is the resurrection.

His wounds appeared the same.
He ate and he drank.

But, the life that is carried in the blood in not present....the blood is absent.
The physical we are aware of is changed .....to something we are not familar with....yet.
---Trav on 1/25/11




Alan, as I have said we all face physical death, and cannot avoid it. But to the saved it is followed by eternal life with the Lord. What a blessing.

But, we do not have to face eternal separation from God. It is everyone's choice to either accept or reject His free gift of forgiveness. God is not willing that anyone should spend eternity unsaved therefore separated from Him.

Physical death is a transitory thing. So nothing like the horror of eternal separation.
---Warwick on 1/23/11


Solely ?

So no Jesus, no resurrection, no salvation?
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/22/11


Another poster said on a blog ... "the one and only gospel is based solely upon the events of the first f
ew chapters of Genesis". Thoughts please.

Absolutely true:
---francis on 1/22/11


Warwick ... What is worse ... a physical death, or the permanent separation from God?
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/22/11


Alan, Scripture says-The wages of sin is death. Death is spiritual but also physical otherwise Jesus would not have died physically.

See Revelation 22:20 'He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon" Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.'

Jesus will come again to fulfill all that was promised, including that the saved will be transformed, with new perfect bodies, as was Jesus.

This was accomplished by Jesus' death and resurrection and will be completed in His timing. In our time reality is is to come but in God's reality it is just as if it has been accomplished. As Jesus says He is the beginning and the end. Note He does not say I will be the end.
---Warwick on 1/21/11


MarkV Please read back through the correspondence. I do indeed know why Jesus came, to die for our sins to make us righteous before God.

I beleive also that it was a complete remedy for the sin of Adam.

My query is why, if it was a complete remedy, did He not do away with physical death? It leads me to doubt that physical was introduced because of the Fall
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/21/11


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MarkV Please read back through the correspondence. I have NEVER questioned the coming of Jesus.

I do indeed know why Jesus came, to die for our sins to make us righteous before God.

I beleive also that it was a complete remedy for the sin of Adam.

My query is why, if it was a complete remedy, did He not do away with physical death? It leads me to doubt that physical was introduced because of the Fall.

And for your information, I have never been Roman Catholic
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/21/11


Cluny you clutch at straws.

I have clearly said that Adam's sin, and the curse (the bad news) was the foundational reason for why Jesus came to give us the good news. Just as the NT says.

But you are obsessed with Rachel and her idols! Is this healthy?
---Warwick on 1/21/11


Alan as Bible-believing Christians know God does not perform at mans beck and call. His timing is not our timing and that which He says He will do is what He will do, when He is ready. How long did faithful people await the Saviours coming? We also wait for the consumation of all things.

Philippians 3:20,21 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will (future tense) transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."

Alan may I also remind you that judgement day and its rewards have yet to come.
---Warwick on 1/21/11


Alan, when you speak against Scripture it puzzles me. You know why Jesus came, to die for our sins to make us righteous before God. You also know that we are not sinless and will receive a glorified body after death, yet you question the coming of Christ. Why?
You also know that Cluny questions the sufficiency of Scripture because he believes it needs another truth that comes from his denomination. Which is no truth at all. So why do you question the Bible? You don't have to. Are you still a Roman Catholic and believe they have Truth outside of Scripture? Cluny does what about you?
---Mark_V. on 1/21/11


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Warwick ... Are you not "avoiding the point" raied in my question about spritual & physical death?

You have said "Therefore why did Jesus come? To overturn the curse which was brought about by Adam's sin. God's word plainly says that Adam's sin (the bad news) is the foundational reason for why Jesus came, to give us the Good News"

If Jesus came to overturn that curse, He would overturn both physical death and spiritual death.

Physical death has not been overturned, so Jesus has done only half the job. Or has He? That would be true only if there was no physical death before the Fall
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/20/11


(warwick)you are doing the very same thing that I have been accused of: deciding which parts of Genesis were more important than others. ---Cluny on 1/20/11

Cluny,Cluny preachers ask questions... don't answer them. Lest he be found scripturally.
Ezekiel 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I am against the shepherds, I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock, neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more, I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Isaiah 56:11
Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
---Trav on 1/20/11


Warwick, first you say this:

\\Cluny now you have appointed yourself arbiter of what is important in God's word.\\

Then you say this:

\\This idea is opposed by those who will not accept these Genesis chapters as historical reality. In doing so they undermine the foundation for the gospel, gospel meaning the good news, which is the antidote for the Bad news of Adam, and the curse.\\

So you have done EXACTLY what you accuse me of doing: deciding which of Genesis is more important that other parts.

And you get very angry when I point out your double standard--or "diverse weights and measures" as Proverbs 20:10 calls it, labelling it an ABOMINATION!
---Cluny on 1/20/11


Cluny I see your feigned interest in Rachel's behaviour as a blatent ploy to avoid the point. I am sure others see it this way also.

I have never inferred that Rachel's behaviour is or isn't important. That is a fabrication of your fertile imagination.

What is important is that the first few chapters of Genesis are the foundation for the gospel, that makes them more than important, vital. That flies in the face of those who prefer the opinions of falible man to the Truth of God who makes no mistakes and cannot lie. The NT clearly shows us that all of Genesis is historical fact.
---Warwick on 1/20/11


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Trav, what opinion about this story did I express that I'm asking you to kneel to? Please be specific.
---Cluny on 1/19/11

If you review the post again...I pointed that Opinionated preachers and pup want all/you to kneel to their unsupported opinions. Genesis is their platform. Foundationally to them because some areas are vague to most.
It is a doctrinal death for their beliefs when Genesis witnesses against them.

What part does the story play....Jacob.....Rachel (hidden idols)...Israel. She's her own brand deceptive...perhaps her children are.....ever know one?
---Trav on 1/20/11


\\Cluny, you seem to have missed the point. This thread is about the first few chapters of Genesis, that which covers Adam's sin, the curse, and the reference to the coming Saviour. In the NT we read that God says that Adam's failure is the reason for why Jesus came. \\

In other words, you are doing the very same thing that I have been accused of: deciding which parts of Genesis were more important than others.
---Cluny on 1/20/11


Cluny, you seem to have missed the point. This thread is about the first few chapters of Genesis, that which covers Adam's sin, the curse, and the reference to the coming Saviour. In the NT we read that God says that Adam's failure is the reason for why Jesus came.

This idea is opposed by those who will not accept these Genesis chapters as historical reality. In doing so they undermine the foundation for the gospel, gospel meaning the good news, which is the antidote for the Bad news of Adam, and the curse.

I do not see what Rachel's behaviour has to do with this. Can anyone?
---Warwick on 1/20/11


Well put Lionel. Those who reject Genesis as historicasl reality undermine the foundation of our faith.

Maybe some of them have not thought it through. Maybe some are here with the intent of undermining Biblical Christianity. It would seem so.

As Psalm 11:3 says "If the foundations be destroyed what can the righteous do."

Some others ignore God as King, He who made us, therefore owns us, therefore sets the rules. Judges 21: 25 is relevant "In those days Israel had no king, everyone did as he saw fit." When we follow what the Lord says we do as He sees fit. When we follow man and God we end up doing what we see as fit.
---Warwick on 1/20/11


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Cluny, you said,

I think you're just mad and are shooting the messenger.
Cluny, I'm not mad but sadden that your denomination changed the Truth to a lie. Yours is no different then the Catholic church. Divided by another misterpretation. And when you attack the sufficiency of Scripture, it calls for others to speak for Scripture. You ask where those comments are found, they came to oppose what your Church had change from Scripture. Your theology teaches that baptism is the primary instrumental cause of justification and that the sacrament of penance is the secondary, restorative cause. Adding works of man to justification. Theologians within your church argued those points against what it was teaching.
---Mark_V. on 1/20/11


\\Cluny, you wrote "I'm asking those spiritual people around here, including you if you so consider yourself, to explain how that incident plays into our salvation."

Please be clear, what incident do you refer to, and what does 'plays into mean?'
---Warwick on 1/19/11\\

The story of Rachel stealing her father's idols, sitting down on them, and saying she's menstruating.

Trav, what opinion about this story did I express that I'm asking you to kneel to? Please be specific.
---Cluny on 1/19/11


Genesis is the foundation book that supports every other book in the bible.

Whitout the book of genesis how much of the bible could be understood.God's creation(heaven,earth,man), sin,redemption,saviour,satan,penalty,salvation, victory,all in genesis.
---lionel on 1/19/11


Cluny, you wrote "I'm asking those spiritual people around here, including you if you so consider yourself, to explain how that incident plays into our salvation."

Please be clear, what incident do you refer to, and what does 'plays into mean?'
---Warwick on 1/19/11


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\\Cluny now you have appointed yourself arbiter of what is important in God's word.\\

No, I didn't.

I'm asking those spiritual people around here, including you if you so consider yourself, to explain how that incident plays into our salvation.

Can you tell me?
---Cluny on 1/18/11

They are distressed that you don't kneel to their opinions,(which are never,supported scripturally). Genesis is hidden to them,by their doctrines.
The point of the story, is the heart of Rachel. She stole,she lied. Being Jacob's she was protected from Jacobs declaration of killing whoever stole the idols. (You can bet she got rid of them later).
GOD protected Jacob and what was Jacob's. Despite their actions. Even today.
---Trav on 1/19/11


\\Cluny, I know you want to question Scripture for the sole purpose of showing that God's Word is not sufficient enough for Truth, that somehow it needs your denominations traditions to help it out\\

I think you're just mad and are shooting the messenger because I called your attention to one of the many odd incidents in Genesis that beggar explanation.
---Cluny on 1/19/11


Genesis is the foundation book that supports every other book in the bible.

Whitout the book of genesis how much of the bible could be understood.God's creation(heaven,earth,man), sin,redemption,saviour,satan,penalty,salvation, victory,all in genesis.
---lionel on 1/19/11


\\Cluny now you have appointed yourself arbiter of what is important in God's word.\\

No, I didn't.

I'm asking those spiritual people around here, including you if you so consider yourself, to explain how that incident plays into our salvation.

Can you tell me?
---Cluny on 1/18/11


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\\On what basis do you claim Rachel's behaviour is not included in God's word for good reason? Who are we to second-guess God about the importance of one Scripture as compared to another. Is this not faithless arrogance?\\

All I'm asking is for someone as spiritual as yourself to say WHY it is included, Warwick, and what spiritual meaning we are to derive from it.
---Cluny on 1/19/11


Cluny, the importance of that passage was to show that she was lying. And God want to show us what she was lying about. It could have been something else, but God choose that action to convey to us that Rachel theft and dishonest cover-up had precipitated a major conflict between her father and her husband which could only be resolved by judicial inquiry before witnesses.
Cluny, I know you want to question Scripture for the sole purpose of showing that God's Word is not sufficient enough for Truth, that somehow it needs your denominations traditions to help it out. Sorry, but man's traditions or not always true, they carry a lot of baggage.
---Mark_V. on 1/19/11


Cluny now you have appointed yourself arbiter of what is important in God's word.

In reality you are not prepared to accept the early chapters of Genesis as historical fact. This is because you prefer nonBiblical views over God's word. If you accepted Genesis 1-3 as historical reality you would have to give up your man-made views which are contradicted by God.

On what basis do you claim Rachel's behaviour is not included in God's word for good reason? Who are we to second-guess God about the importance of one Scripture as compared to another. Is this not faithless arrogance?
---Warwick on 1/18/11


Alan, surely no one has a perfect knowledge of all that will happen.

However Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Hebrews 9:27 says "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.."

Those who refuse Jesus' offer of forgiveness will face judgement, die physically and inherit eternal consciousness in Hell-sadly.

But the forgiven (other than those alive when Christ returns)do die physically but inherit eternal life in a new resurrection body.

The unforgiven die in hoplesness but the forgiven die knowing what wonderous things await them. A new body in place of this diseased, worn out one!
---Warwick on 1/18/11


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warwick ... As you say, Jesus came to overturn the curse brought about by Adam's sin.

You also say that Adam's sin brought death, both spiitual and physical, into the world.

If Jesus overturned the curse, why do we still die physically?
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/18/11


\\Cluny, are you suggesting that God inspired the writer or writers of Genesis to write something in Scripture that is not important?\\

Then please tell us the importance of the event I mentioned, and how it directly relates to our salvation.

I shall await with interest.
---Cluny on 1/18/11


God's word plainly says that Adam's sin (the bad news) is the foundational reason for why Jesus came, to give us the Good News.
---Warwick on 1/18/11

Ok, where is it Orthoplainly.
You make a notable "plain" point, by not showing any of "plainly witnessing" scripture. Common. (Rather your wordy ortho-doc's opinion should suffice)
Making yet another point avoiding the scriptures that are listed. (U would rather ask than tell,)
My post of three scriptures "plainly" say your "orthodox doc" is avoiding many,thousands of other witness scriptures.

---Trav on 1/18/11


Trav, your reaction to my orthodox views of Christianity are a puzzle to me. The NT clearly says (Roman's 5) that sin entered the world through one man (Adam) and that Jesus came to die to be the antidote for Adam's sin.

1 Corinthians 15:22 puts it succinctly "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

Therefore why did Jesus come? To overturn the curse which was brought about by Adam's sin. God's word plainly says that Adam's sin (the bad news) is the foundational reason for why Jesus came, to give us the Good News.

Please explain what you mean by a universalist.
---Warwick on 1/18/11


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Cluny, are you suggesting that God inspired the writer or writers of Genesis to write something in Scripture that is not important? That He just puts things there for no reason at all? Is this the reason you believe it was ok to remove the Second Commandment?
---Mark_V. on 1/18/11


\\All the events that happen in Genesis are as important to us as the rest of Scripture.\\

Does this include Rachel sitting on her father's household idols and telling him she's menstruating? (Genesis 31)
---Cluny on 1/17/11


Warwick, I completely agree with you. All the events that happen in Genesis are as important to us as the rest of Scripture. The fall is the reason for the Atonement. The events that happen were told to us so that when we bring the good news to others, we can explain why the need for our Savior Jesus Christ. We do not have all the clues of every detail because God saw it was not needed or else He would have included every single detail. What we have is what God purposed was right, for He is always righteous and Holy. There is no deception with God.
---Mark_V. on 1/17/11


The gospel (i.e. the Good News) is that Jesus came to die as a direct result of Adam's sin.---Warwick on 1/3/11

Well it is always notable that you-niversalist always avoid "Stone" scriptures building your doc'd house.

Romans 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Jesus states the mission,Prophets state the mission. Rather, believe them,Lost Sheep.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 1/17/11


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God declares-End from Beginning.Is46:10,Mk13:23
He is eternal.Discern the sharp beguiled word of the adversary."Traditions of Men"-heavy burden.
Word of God-Mat 11:25-30...27
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Gen 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Just as the man named adam had the choice--so to does mankind.

-Cause put for effect-(IF)
Hate-"Love Less"
Luke 14:26 Rev 14:10-11
---char on 1/17/11


We are getting away from the point.

To understand where a person is coming from we need to know their world-view. If someone does not believe the first chapters of Genesis are historical reality they cannot accept that these chapters explain The reason Jesus actually did come to die to pay the price of sin. But that is exactly what the NT says-Adam's sin is The reason why Jesus came to die.

If the basis of the gospel is not historical reality how can the gospel itself be historical reality? If Genesis does not define sin then what does?

That Jesus and the apostles accepted Genesis events as historical reality is not in dispute. Therefore why would any Christian doubt this?
---Warwick on 1/17/11


Alan: I am not sure whether we can say that things God does are based on other things God has said.

For God is outside time, and I think that the sentence A is based on B means that B came before A. If God is outside of time, then God does not base - he does both, but we see one thing God does after the other thing
---James on 1/15/11


Warwick, no, Kathr and I are not saying the same thing. She says that no one was indwell by the Spirit in the Old T. and gives reasons why.
It was not the norm to indwell every believer but to say He never did is wrong and so her reasons are also wrong. The prophets were guide by the Spirit within them. Pharaoh recognized the indwelling of the Spirit in Joseph (Gen. 41:38. The Spirit was clearly in Joshua and this is the reason for God' choosing him (Numbers 27:18). The Spirit is also said to be in Daniel (Dan. 4:8). The preposition "in" in all these verses is "beth" in Hebrew.
---Mark_V. on 1/11/11


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Peter Peter quotes Joel(2:28)

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
---kathr4453 on 1/6/11

And the preceding verse shows who this message was addressed too.....as Peter was well aware of by quoting the verse.
Joel 2:27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
---Trav on 1/7/11


Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Peter Peter quotes Joel

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Even this didn't happen in Genesis.
---kathr4453 on 1/6/11


MarkV, the Holy Spirit ministry in the New Testament is to build the Church, bringing God's elect into the Body of Christ, as we receive the New Birth and a New Life in Him.

I fail to see anyone called a New Creature before Christ, or even a hint.

The Ministry of the Spirit before Christs death and resurrection was to prophecy concerning Christ and His promise of the Holy Spirit that would one day be in us.

The New Covenant did not come into effect until Christ rose from the Dead.




---Tom on 1/5/11


Mark, maybe my understanding is incorrect but you and Kath seem to be saying much the same thing, that in OT times some were selected to be filled with the Holy Spirit. However today, since Christ rose and sent the Holy Spirit, He is freely available to all who call upon the name of the Lord, and repent.

It is interesting to see the various comments, most of which point to the foundation of the gospel being the historical events as reported in the fist few chapters of Genesis. Just what Paul says in the NT.

This of course contradicts the various compromisers, especially the theistic evolutionists.
---Warwick on 1/5/11


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Kathr, again you talk and make up things as you go. You said,

"Men were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit of the Risen Christ in the OT. One needs to be crucified with Christ and raised up with Him to have the Spirit of the life of Christ in them"

In the Old Testament the Spirit was selective on those He would indwell, it was not universal as in the New Testament. Gen. 41:38, The reason God chose Joshua was because the Spirit was in him (Numbers 27:18) The Spirit was said to be in Daniel (Dan. 4:8) 5:11-14, 6:3) The Spirit is said to have filled some. (Ex. 31:3, 35:31) The New Testament reveals that the Spirit in the prophets gave them discernment and wisdom ( 1 Peter 1:11) and their is more cases.
---Mark_V. on 1/5/11


Cluny, Matthew ch. 25 clearly divides those who will stand before Him at judgement into sheep and goats.

The sheep listened to His voice and were saved by faith "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-" Ephesians 2:8. And in faith served Him, and the least of His (Matthew 25:40). Heaven was theirs.

The goats had no saving faith in Him, so not saved at all, and no works born of faith-hell was theirs.

As we know James 2 tells us true faith exhibits itself in the desire of the saved to do good works.

It is clear those who will inherit heaven travel there by the grace of God and faith. No faith no heavenly reward.

The orthodox view!
---Warwick on 1/4/11


Alan I absolutely agree. The Gospel is announced in Genesis 3:15. A redeemer is promised immediately after Adam/Eve sin.

The BLOOD sacrifice of Abel, and all after him is now fulfilled IN CHRIST.

All men who sacrificed showed evidence man knew he was a sinner WAITING for the Redeemer.

Even Job said, I know that my REDEEMER liveth...Job also sacrificed...making a sin offering for his sons.

Men were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit of the Risen Christ in the OT. One needs to be crucified with Christ and raised up with Him to have the Spirit of the LIFE of Christ in them. The prophets Priests and Kings certainly had the Holy Spirit anointing...but not Born Again.
Men have had faith from Adam/Eve to Abel on to today.
---kathr4453 on 1/4/11


\\At judgement, before the Lord we will be judged by our faith.\\

Not according to Matthew 25, Warwick, or is that chapter in your Bible?
---Cluny on 1/4/11


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THIS IS THE GOSPEL:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
---francis on 1/4/11


No, the gospel is Christ the Messiah has come in the flesh to give his life a ransom to redeem man.
---Eloy on 1/4/11


Cluny our only responce to God must be one of faith in Him-see Hebrews 11.

"Whatever is Not of Faith is Sin" Romans 14:23.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God,.." Hebrews 11:6.

At judgement, before the Lord we will be judged by our faith.

From Scripture it is clear Jesus and the apostles treated the opening chapters of Genesis as historical fact. Nothing in Scripture hints otherwise. Therefore those who play 'fast and loose' with God's revealed truth do so in a state of rebellion.

Scripture tells me that your unfaithful attitude to His word places you in dire jeopardy.

I do not imagine for one moment my words or those from Scripture will change your mind.
---Warwick on 1/4/11


Warwick, you gave great explanations on why Genesis is part of the gospel of Christ. We could say that the Gospel begin in Gen. 3:15, since it is the first time that "Her Seed" is mentioned which is Christ. This first gospel is prophetic of the struggle and its outcome between "your seed" (satan and unbeliever who are called satan's children in John 8:44) and "her Seed". (Christ, a descendant of Eve, and those in Him) which began in the garden. In the midst of the curse passage, a message of hope shone forth-the woman's offspring called "He" is Christ, who will one day defeat the Serpent.
---Mark_V. on 1/4/11


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May I point out that at the Last Judgement, you will not be quizzed on what you think about the opening chapters of Genesis?

The final exam questions are given Matthew 25.
---Cluny on 1/3/11


Cliff it wasn't a typo but an attempt to be brief which may be unclear. I wrote "... that our sins may be forgiven." The accent upon 'may.' I agree, just as Scripture says, Jesus came to pay the price of sin (death) to overturn the mess that Adam introduced. And praise God for that.

However we also may have our sins forgiven if we repent and accept He died taking our rightful punishment. And ask Him for forgiveness. No ask, no get!
---Warwick on 1/3/11


I originally made the comments regarding Adam's sin being what caused Jesus to come and die. I did so because many Christians have been erroneously taught that the first chapters of Genesis are not to be taken as historical reality, or at face value. That despite the fact God's word says the opposite, He may have used billions of years and evolution to create.

Paul's words (quoted below) show he took Genesis as historical reality.

Jesus and the apostles also took Genesis as historical reality, quoting from or aluding to the first 11 chapters 107 times, always as historical fact.

As God's word says Genesis is historical fact why do some Christians reject this? Not for Biblical reasons. So why?
---Warwick on 1/3/11


How can we understand the reality of the Incarnation without knowing that the babe in Bethlehem was the Creator of the World. And why did He take on human nature to die for our sins? Precisely because He was "the last Adam", coming to conquer the physical death brought by "the first man, Adam" (1 Cor. 15).
---Ktisophilos on 1/3/11


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Even doctrines like the Virginal Conception can be traced to Genesis. When God was pronouncing judgement on Adam, Eve and the Serpent, He also promised a Saviour. Genesis 3:15 is the "Protevangelion", the first mention of the Gospel in the Bible. Here, the coming Seed of the Woman would crush the head of the serpent. Since biblical genealogies went through the male line, this was a prophecy of someone who didn't have a human father.
---Ktisophilos on 1/3/11


Warwick, maybe it's a typo? but **overturned and that our "sins" (plural?)may be forgiven** No Jesus' sacrifice nullified only Adamic sin. Day to day sins are forgiven on an "asked for basis"
---1st_cliff on 1/3/11


What is sin?
Rebellion against God.
Who first rebelled?
Adam, whose actions define sin -this is the Bad News.
The gospel (i.e. the Good News) is that Jesus came to die as a direct result of Adam's sin so that the consequences of Adam's sin could be overturned and that our sins may be forgiven.

As 1 Corinthians 15:22 says "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

See also Romans 5: 12-21 (entitled "Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ,') which shows us that the only foundation for why Jesus came to die, is the historical reality of Adam's sin as found in Genesis 3. It shows that Jesus came to overturn the results of Adam's sin.
---Warwick on 1/3/11


While the events in Genesis hold types and shadows of being a new creature in Christ the gospel is not based solely on Genesis.
It is based on Christ.
---Frank on 1/3/11


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I do wish the Moderators would be more careful that the title they give reflects the actual question asked.

In this case they omitted the crucial "solely"
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/2/11


Somehow, I thought the Gospel was about Jesus Christ--His Incarnation, Passion, Death, Resurrection, Ascension, et al.
---Cluny on 1/2/11


Some of the truths contained in Genesis are foundational to the gospel, but overall I'd say the basis of the gospel is God's character in relation to man.
---Pharisee on 1/2/11


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