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Distance Of God And Adam

Is the Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter VII lines 1 and 2 suggesting that there was "great distance" between God and Adam BEFORE he even sinned?

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 ---CraigA on 1/5/11
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Pedant, any spirit filled believer can read the context of the message and know what the meaning is. The meaning might only apply to people in Scripture, it could apply to us, or it could apply to angels etc. A careful study will reveal the Truth. When someone purposely distorts the context to use the passage for their own agenda, it can be expose very easy by anyone who is spirit filled.
---Mark_V. on 1/16/11


//While the word of god has many applications on many passages, they only have one meaning, the one God wanted to convey//
But who is to decide what meaning God wanted to convey?
---Pedant on 1/16/11


Kathr, what it has to do with is, your continue giving of different meanings on the word of God then those God wanted to convey. While the word of god has many applications on many passages, they only have one meaning, the one God wanted to convey. And when you change that meaning to suit your own agenda, you are changing the Truth to a lie. The Bible tells us that those who do that, receive a worse punishment. Hope that helps you to stop what you are doing.
---Mark_V. on 1/16/11


MarkV, since you were once RCC I can understand your hesitation with the RCC. But what does that have to do with the scriptures I did post?

When Paul scolded the Galatians who were being confused by Law, he asked them in Galatians 3....Have you suffered so much IN VAIN.

Life under Grace brings the fellowship of His sufferings, that lead to maturity.

That I may KNOW HIM and the fellowshipf His sufferings and the power of His resurrection. To be conformed to HIS image, includes being conformed to His sufferings.

Obedience to God and being crucified to this world is indeed a painful process.

You think you can escape it by READING BOOKS?

No, you can't....Jesus said buy of me Gold TRIED in the FIRE.
---kathr4453 on 1/16/11


Kathr, I'm only suggesting that what you write is not found in Scripture. You make it up as you go. When you make a point it is easy to know if it comes from Scripture or not. I don't know if you realize you are changing Scripture meaning as you go, and changing the Truth to a lie. Be careful what you say. The RCC manipulated the passages to conform to their own believes, and how to make money and have authority. The reason the reformers wanted to reform the Church. They didn't want to leave the Church, they loved the Church but not what they were doing.
---Mark_V. on 1/16/11




MarkV, are you sugggesting teh fellowship of His sufferings is spiritual abuse from God? What did Peter also tell us in 1st Peter 4??

Also those who suffer with Him will also be glorified together with Him,,Romans 8, and Hebrews tells us Christ SUFFERED SO THAT He could help us in our sufferings.

You completely DENY the Cross.

Your Gospel is not the Gospel of Scripture.
---kathr4453 on 1/15/11


Confession VII Line 1

The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of Him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He hath been pleased to express by way of covenant
---peter3594 on 1/15/11


Kathr, you don't want to be spiritually abuse, why do you go on and on?
Here again you quote something not in Scripture when you said,
"MarkV, When God brings us to maturity He does it through the fellowship of HIS SUFFERING. Phil 3..pressing on, pressing UP."
In fact I could not find what you said at all, you made it up just like what you do every time you write something. Putting your own meaning. I really don't know why you do that. No wonder you did not give the passage.
Here is Scripture,
"Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind, and if in everything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you"
---Mark_V. on 1/15/11


Westminster confession VII, line 2

The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works,(1) wherein life was promised to Adam, and in him to his posterity,(2) upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.(3)
---peter3594 on 1/15/11


Is the Westminster Confession of Faith

Consider the source.
Only SIN seperates God from Man, so why would there be any distance between adam and God when Adam had not even thought of sin.

Again consider the source.
---francis on 1/15/11




Mark, Yes they sure would stay dead. Problem is you wont find a single place in the Bible that says God wants men to stay "dead" for his "glory".

The parable of the prodigal son should show everyone that. When the son who "was dead" came to himself (repented) and wanted to return to his father, his father seeing him coming fell on his neck and kissed him. His father was more pleased by the return of his son rather than punishing him for riotous living.

Our God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". A God who takes "no pleasure in the death of the wicked". A God who delights in mercy and forgiveness more than sacrifice.
---CraigA on 1/15/11


---Craig, I will tell you why, because if a person does not know what the word is in a given passage in Scripture he can easily fall victim to error. ---

Do the words "all, any whosoever, every man, all men" really need to be defined for you?

Men who twist the meaning of simple words that need no explanation tend to appear desperate to keep their version of the "truth".

(example)
Bill Clinton:"That depends on what your definition of the word IS is?"
---CraigA on 1/15/11


--In Chapter VII, you are probably reading line 2 (the first covenant) but that appears to be dealing with the covenant with Moses and the Israelites, not Adam before the fall
---peter3594 on 1/15/11

Nope - Thats not what the article says.

"The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to ADAM and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience."
---CraigA on 1/15/11


CraigA: In the Wesminster Confession, as I understand it, Chapter VII deals ONLY with the situation AFTER Adam sinned, not before.

The condition of Adam BEFORE he sined is dealt with in Chapter IV.

In Chapter VII, you are probably reading line 2 (the first covenant) but that appears to be dealing with the covenant with Moses and the Israelites, not Adab before the fall
---peter3594 on 1/15/11


MarkV, When God brings us to maturity He does it through the fellowship of HIS SUFFERING. Phil 3..pressing on, pressing UP.

You're suggesting God works in us as one going to a worldly university. Then suggesting one needs a PHD in order to become Mature IN CHRIST.

Being changed from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord comes through Christ alone, HIS LIFE in you, THROUGH FAITH, not INTELLECT.

Ephesians 3:14 to the end of the chapter, IS where the truth of MATURITY is.

And we are also partakers of HIS Divine nature, BY FAITH, not intellect.
---kathr4453 on 1/15/11


Hello Craig, did you not say that the Spirit convicts the person of sin? With those who are lost, what do you think happens if the Spirit does not convict them of sin and brings them to repentance? Don't they stay dead in sin?
---mary on 1/15/11


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Craig, I will tell you why, because if a person does not know what the word is in a given passage in Scripture he can easily fall victim to error. The Bible is understanding enough to bring salvation, speak about the atonement of Christ, and bring faith to individuals, but when you want to grow to maturity as a believer, you first need a passion to learn, and the Spirit will direct you to people He has equip for those matters, because you will need to be able to understand what parables are, allegories, similes, metaphors, proverbs etc. otherwise you will not understand most of Scripture. What the words mean in Hebrew and Greek. Even the traditions at the time the passage is given is needed many times.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11


--What I do Craig is when I find words that seem to contradict other passages I look them up on the Hebrews and Greek lexicon to know the meaning of them.--

Why do you not rely upon the Holy Spirit to teach you the meaning?

Dont trust in man's explanation rather than what the Spirit that gives you LIFE says. The Bible explains itself perfectly if you actually cross reference quotes from the Old Testament to help you read things in context.

Like I said before... extrabiblical material causes people to go astray when you value the opinion of those things OVER the Word of God.

You have been given scripture before and simply changed the meaning of simple words in order to defend your beliefs.
---CraigA on 1/14/11


Craig, you are only giving opinions, why don't you put passages down. What I do Craig is when I find words that seem to contradict other passages I look them up on the Hebrews and Greek lexicon to know the meaning of them. Since the whole word of God does not contradict. But a person has to have a passion to learn about God first. But they don't have it because they don't want to change what they already believe even when the Truth is right in front of them, so they fight with all they can at the expense of God's Word. That is called "theological bias" so my question is, how can they witness to a none believer the gospel? What do you tell them? What gospel do the present?
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11


--You read them but you don't believe them, you go so far as to change the meaning of Scripture when it doesn't fit your theology. --

What about all the verses where Calvinists change the meaning of the words "any, all, all men, every man, whosoever, world, whole world" so that they only point to one group of people?
---CraigA on 1/14/11


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MarkV TOOTH AND NAIL was your very words. WIFE was also your words. You had an opportunity to correct yourself then, and didn't. NOW after I posted spiritual abuse, NOW you change your story.

Like so many stories you tell.

Like, being down and out in Beverly Hills, your neighbor comes over to share the Gospel, you then go to Church...bla bla bla. Faith comes by hearing....There's the proof..

But No, you now say, gee, I just woke up one morning, AWAKE TO GOD, I don't know how it happened..it just did.
---kathr4453 on 1/14/11


Kathr 2: you said,

"Markv, when you believe you are the only person here who has truth, and one must line up with YOUR truth, yes it is abuse."

I do not believe I am the only person with the Truth here answering, in fact there is so many others. And there is some that will not answer on account of what they would have to go through because of you. Second, You do not have to line up with me on anything you do not want. I present the Truth and you have the ability to except it or reject it just like the lost. There is no abuse there. In fact it is a show of Love expressed to you. To know the God of Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11


Kathr, just to correct you, I have never faught with my wife. I'm a Christian. When we discussed the doctrine of predestination we were not even married. She didn't have to agree with me, all she had to do was open her eyes to the Word of God. And because she had been taught like you she overlooked the Scriptures concerning God, and because of her love for learning, she saw the real Truth as to who had saved her. And was shocked she had believed like you for twenty years. It was not because of me that she learned, its because it was her time to learn so the Spirit revealed the Truth to her. You read them but you don't believe them, you go so far as to change the meaning of Scripture when it doesn't fit your theology. No Spirit to help you.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11


Markv, when you believe you are the only person here who has truth, and one must line up with YOUR truth, yes it is abuse.

You are the one who posted your own testimony. You are the one who said you fought with your wife tooth and nail until she sucummed to your doctrine. Again, that is abuse.

Why didn't you disclose your beliefs before your marriage. If you doctrine is SO important to you, you should have told your wife what you believed before marriage. Rather than making her change her beliefs after your marriage.

If I married a closet calvinist, who knew I wasn't, believe me I would divorce, without any hesitation.
---kathr4453 on 1/13/11


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Craig, David did. There is many crimes committed by believers but God brings them to repentance by convicting them, either by His own words or sending someone to bring the conviction to them. Let me say also concerning my last post that anything without faith is sin. In the case of David, the Lord send Nathan to bring conviction to him. Through the story Nathan had told him, David realized it was him whom Nathan was talking about. 2 Sam. 12:1-14. David repented and Nathan said to him that the Lord had put away his sin. David was already a man after God's own heart, yet he sinned. You and I might not murder anyone but we do still sin. God chastens us His children. If we are not chasten we are not His children.
---Mark_V. on 1/13/11


Kathr, is it abuse when I correct the false statements concerning salvation, covenants, the deity of Christ, the ministry of the Holy Spirit, Spiritual birth, combining Scriptures without context, and I could go on. If that is abuse then I'm guilty. Since you are the biggest speaker for free will, you get answered more then anyone else. Last year you questioned my salvation, trashed my testimony, spoke against my family, made continuing remarks of my ability to know Scripture, and I still loved you, still prayed for you. So you do get a lot of answering from me, but only when it is due and only when you are wrong. I don't have a agenda against you personally, only in what you teach, even then I still love you, just oppose what you teach.
---Mark_V. on 1/12/11


Mark, I will agree with you on that point, but...

The Spirit of God convicts men of unbelief and their sin (John 16:9). That doesnt mean He indwells their being yet. It is directly stated in scripture that we receive the Holy Spirit as our seal AFTER we place our trust in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:13).

Just because a man is spoken to by the Spirit does not mean the Spirit lives IN that man. (Psalms 51:11)

David was a man "after Gods own heart" but yet committed murder. Do regenerate people commit murder? (1 John 3:15)
---CraigA on 1/12/11


Here is the truth of the lost person, The unregenerate man can, through common grace, love his family and he may be a good citizen. He may give a million dollars to build a hospital, but he cannot give even a cup of water to a disciple "in the name of Jesus"
If a drunkard may abstain from drink for utilitarian purposes, but "he cannot do it out of love for God." All of his common virtues or good works have a fatal defect in that his motives which prompt them "are not to glorify God."
It matters not how good the works may be in themselves, for so long as the doer of them is out of harmony with God, none of his works are spiritually acceptable.
---Mark_V. on 1/12/11


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Markv, why not tell Leslie/ginger/craig the same thing you said here to me. Your comments to me are out of your own rage towards me alone. Totally discrediting anything you say.

You attack when asked to back up with scripture that not there. When you can't you personally attack the person.


Markv, Your commants are called "spiritual abuse". Look up "Spiritual Abuse" and see yourself.

Those who resort to spiritual abuse use cultish tactics, because they are the ones who do not really understand truth.

Attacking me is not answering the question. TWO or three scriptures Markv,where are they? YOU are the one who insists we use scripture to BACK UP. Except for you??
---kathr4453 on 1/12/11


Spiritual abuse is the maltreatment of a person in the name of God, faith, religion, or church, whether habitual or not, and includes any of the following:

Psychological and emotional abuse
Any act by deeds or words that demean, humiliate or shame the natural worth and dignity of a person as a human being
Submission to spiritual authority without any right to disagree, intimidation
Unreasonable control of a person's basic right to make a choice on spiritual matters
False accusation and repeated criticism by negatively labeling a person as disobedient, rebellious, lacking faith, demonized, apostate, enemy of the church or God


The last one bolded is exactly what YOU do here markV.
---kathr4453 on 1/12/11


Only Israel and the Bride?
To Noah: Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you,
To Abraham: Gen 17:7a And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee...
Exodus 2:24 ---micha9344 on 1/11/11

From the first Adam until the last Adam....the lineage spoken of is continuous. Now this offends many including you if I remember. But, the book is written by this lineage for and about this lineage regardless. Could others come in to Israels blessings....it appears so. Have you found the Lost Nth house nations. No,they are still lost to you/most but not to Christ. Matt 15:24. Have you looked for them? No.
---Trav on 1/12/11


Kathr, you can believe it or not, that the contract that God made with Adam was a Covenant or not. You didn't even know what a Covenant was. In fact you don't know much because you do not study only talk a lot.

Salvation is accomplished by the Almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.
---Mark_V. on 1/11/11


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Craig I do not know the Westminter Confession but in Genesis Ch3. It says that God and Adam walked in the cool of the day. That means he saw God and God saw him, no sin, nothing hidden, complete perfection between them. We can not image what it was like until heaven when we are washed white as snow.
---Scott on 1/11/11


Only Israel and the Bride?
To Noah: Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you,
To Abraham: Gen 17:7a And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee...
Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Even though God didn't use the word 'beriyth' to Adam, a 'promise' was still made by God.
---micha9344 on 1/11/11


Mark_V, I don't see ginger assumed any such thing. She clearly stated there was no such covenent.

But here markv, you go on and on and on with OUT any scripture to support your ASSUMPTIONS.

If in fact there was a covenent, you should find at least two other supporting scriptures.

The only reason YOU assume is because the WCF stated so based on the Calvin doctrine.

Well, their both WRONG!! Even they cannot find any supporting scripture. We don't place our faith in ambiguous nonsense! That's left to the Gnostics!

Fact is, if Adam & Eve never sinned, they would still be living in a small peace of realestate " The Garden" and running around naked.
---kathr4453 on 1/11/11


Craig, as Ginger stated it is assume because if he sinned he would die, of course meaning he would not live. Very simple. He could continue to live as long as he obeyed. This contract or covenant is an agreement, however covenants in the Bible are not usually equal agreements. Rather they follow a pattern common to the ancient Near Eastern suzerain-vassal treaties. Like contracts between a King and the conquered. There was no negotiation between the two parties. God showed who He (the Conquerer) compared to (what man) was as Article one of chapter seven. Then God listed what He will require of those rules He gives, and third He list the blessings for obeying, and the curses for not obeying. That is a Bible Covenant.
---Mark_V. on 1/10/11


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Craig, I believe scripture makes it clear that it is a choice. When Abraham sent his servant ( a type of the Holy Spirit) to find a BRIDE for Isaac, again a type of Christ, Rebecca was not forced against her will. Abraham said, if they don't RECEIVE YOU, kick off the dust and don't go there again.

Now a picture of one taken against her will was Dianna, of which we do see the end of that mess. And not only Dianna, but Tamar. Both women taken ...raped of you will.

God has shown us even through the actions of these men what is detestable. And they say God committed the same offense?
---kathr4453 on 1/10/11


Mark, Jesus Christ is GOD IN THE FLESH. When He says "I" he means "God".

And youre missing the entire point of my post. God desired to take them under his wing and they RESISTED his will! You cant dance around that fact.

Why do you insist on changing the object and meaning of verses when you are faced with scripture that argues against you? Would you dare claim that I dont give you scripture to back up my beliefs as you have done others?
---CraigA on 1/10/11


MarkV,
That is a command from God not a covenant.
You are assuming but God did not say he made a covenant with Adam ever.
He gave commands and he meant for them to be followed.
The only covenants given in the Bible are to Israel in the OT and the bride of Christ in the NT.
Don't you see you are defending a man made tradition over what God sys in the Bible?
---ginger on 1/10/11


--Craig, Jesus in His incarnated human state experienced everything any human being experiences. --

Are you suggesting that God the Father was ignorant of what it was like to live in the flesh? Did God not know what He was creating when he made Adam and Eve and had to come as Jesus to fully understand?

There is scripture stating that if God had eyes and tears He would cry himself. He obviously FEELS the same things we do. Just because He is morally perfect doesnt mean He doesnt experience the same range of emotion that we do.
---CraigA on 1/10/11


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It is a clear thing that some do not have the faintest clue of what is a covenant and what is the law (command from God). Some who claim to be Christians are fully lead by the Spirit through His Word and others are lead by the Westminister Confession and whatever. Instead of pointing to the Word for guidance, they rather be lead by laws made by man. As Paul told us in 2 Timothy 4:3,

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers."

And by the way, when God makes a covenant - it is a divine promise by Him and does not require the man to consent or approve.
---christan on 1/10/11


MarkV, you put scripture, but no covenent is mentioned. When God makes a covenent, He uses teh word COVENANT.

Again, you suggest there is a covenent called the covenent of Grace, however there is no covenent in SCRIPTURE called the covenent of GRACE.

You ll MAKE UP covenents not found in scripture, laying a foundation of sinking sand.

The EVERLASTING Covenent was made from before the foundation of the world,and that is the ONLY covenent promising LIFE. Hebrews 13:20-21. Not even the Mosaec Covenent promised LIFE!!

---kathr4453 on 1/10/11


Can you not see from this scripture that Gods desire to gather someone and protect them still does not FORCE them to come to Him?

Even God Almighty our Creator with all of his power doesnt FORCE people to love Him. This is essentially what you say when you claim some people were predestined to repent and believe in Christ.

Those people are not willing followers of God. They are puppets.

To me thats an insult to God to suggest that He cant freely receive love from his creation but has to force them to love him.
---CraigA on 1/10/11


Kathr, a lot of talk and no Scripture,
You said,
"God never made a Covenant with Adam of works"
Answer,
"And the Lord God commanded the man saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you many freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" I don't know how much more clear that could be. Obey, and he would have life forever, disobey and he would die. God is the giver of life. Adam already had eternal life given by God and could maintain that life if he obeyed, but he didn't. God already knew he couldn't, the reason why Christ was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin from the foundation of the world.
---Mark_V. on 1/10/11


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Craig, Jesus in His incarnated human state experienced everything any human being experiences.
The passages you gave concern the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus was characterizing them. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" Therefore they were witnesses against themselves. Jesus called them serpents, blood of vipers how could they escape the condemnation of Hell? Many that the Lord sent to them they murdered. In actuality they had no excuse. God provide for them, but they refused the provisions of God. But they were worse in that they set in Moses seat, but what they said for others to do, they never did themselves. Their hearts were corrupt.
---Mark_V. on 1/10/11


---Because you cannot answer Scripture. On some other topics, you might be right, but you are completely wrong on God's character, nature and attributes.---

How would you define Gods character, nature and attributes after reading this?

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 3(Matt 23:37)

It almost seems as though some Christians hate the idea that while God is allpowerful he is all meek and lowly and does experience emotional hurt just as we do.
---CraigA on 1/9/11


Actually MarkV, the article I gave leej was on the sovereignty of God, and how the westminstr confession totally distorts the sovereignty of God.

The sovereignty of God forordained CHRIST to die for our sin, long before God created man.

Therefore article 1 and 2 totally negate the Sovereign will of God. God NEVER made a covenant with Adam, promising life if HE OBEYED, thwarting even your own understanding of no free will.

You claim God gave Adam free will/works to obey leading to life.

Absolutely a lie. Even by your own understanding of the Sovereignty of God!

The tree of LIFE was the only guarantee of eternal life, and that never happened.

God forknew Adam would sin. therefore no such covenant existed.
---kathr4453 on 1/9/11


--Here the WCF engages in vain, speculative nonsense teaching God promised Adam an opportunity to thwart His eternal purpose in Christ Jesus.--

I never thought about it that way, Kat, but you are right. That makes no sense.

Why would God offer Adam a way to "life" thru a covenant of obedience when He had already foreordained Jesus Christ to come into the world to save us?

Very nice! Sounds like Calvin was a bit confused.
---CraigA on 1/9/11


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-- Article two has nothing to do with article one.--

Are you kidding me? Any child can see they are related.

1. talks about why god needs to make coventants with man and 2. talks about the first covenant he made with Adam.

Im asking you, Mark. Why did Adam need a covenant with God to guarantee him "life" BEFORE he even sinned?
---CraigA on 1/9/11


The Westminster Confession of Faith is a calvinistic politic. And like other faulty doctrines, they are based upon man's interpretations and analogy of the scripture. Get back to the Holy Bible people, and get back to God.
---Eloy on 1/9/11


Kathr, I will answer you again since you ask me. Your attitude to Leej is different then your attitude to me. So I answer you as you answer me, just not the same ranting and raving as you do. I can understand you not believing the Sovereignty of God. Many believers don't. But by not understanding the Sovereignty of God you strip God of His attributes, nature and character when you state your opinions about Scripture. You never answer the passages we give, you only answer with angry opinions. We give you Scripture, you answer with Calvin, we give you more Scripture and you answer with tulip. Why? Because you cannot answer Scripture. On some other topics, you might be right, but you are completely wrong on God's character, nature and attributes.
---Mark_V. on 1/9/11


Answer to the above question:

Here the WCF engages in vain, speculative nonsense teaching God promised Adam an opportunity to thwart His eternal purpose in Christ Jesus. According to this teaching, if Adam had persevered in obedience , he then would have vitiated the cross of Christ, robbed Christ of His redemptive glory, and impugned the righteousness of Christ, believe that there was a time in,which man could have been saved by his works, which denies the absolute necessity of the atonement. The righteousness of Christ that is imputed to believers is insidiously impugned by the notion that Adam was, by his own righteousness, his own obedience, capable of earning the kind of life that believers now have in Christ.
---kathr4453 on 1/8/11


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MarkV, where are the scriptures for article two?

After the fall of man, man certainly was distanced from God. However before the fall, there was a place called the Garden of Eden, Paradise, of which no human can know or understand the relationship God had with man/Adam.



---kathr4453 on 1/8/11


MarkV, I understand more than you thnk.

Craig, there are many articles on the web about the false doctrine of the Westminster Confesssion. One is called the Wicked Westminster Confession of Faith.


I just sent to to leej, along with another I asked him to read. HE said, Thank you, and appreciated it. He does find many things he questions about the WCF.

He didn't accuse me at all of being angry, or ranting or raving. Funny how EVERYTHING I say to you mark sounds ANGRY.

Please do not address me again on line. I have a right to my opinion.
---kathr4453 on 1/8/11


Craig, you are correct, Adam was mentioned in article two, but your question had the wrong context. For article one was talking about the distance in comparison between God and man. His Almighty God, the Creator of all things and we are but sand in comparison. In fact the Scriptures are provided so that anyone who reads the article will understand where those comments came from. Article two has nothing to do with article one. Article two speaks of the covenant of works that God made with Adam. Here are the Scriptures for Article one:
Isa. 40:13-17 Job 9:32-33 1Sam. 2:25 Psa. 100:2,3 Psa. 113:5,6 Job 22:2,3 Job 35:7,8 Luke 17:10 Acts 17:24-25.
---Mark_V. on 1/8/11


Markv, Craig's question is a great question.

Was God's supposed covenent made with ADAM b4 that he would live if he did not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. MAN here would ONLY be Adam. And who knows, maybe they did live a million years before eating that fruit.

BUT no such covenant was made After adam sinned. Because the everlasting covenant was made with MAN, now all men, after Adam's fall Genesis 3:15, which is the everlasting covenent of a REDEEMER.

Adam lost fellwship with GOD. They walked together, and were very close, that when they sinned, God looked for them and they were hiding. He personally covered them in animal skins.

INSIDE THE GARDEN WAS A CLOSE INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP!
---kathr4453 on 1/8/11


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Kathr, the reason you do not understand is because you are not willing to understand. The very same problem the unbelievers have. That is why they are without excuse. You do what your will wants to do, and so you have a motive why you refuse to understand. Your will is not free, it is guided by your desires or motives. And your motive here is to refuse the very word of God because it does not line up to what you have been saying all along, its guided by your anger with Calvin so much that you miss the Truth from Scripture. If you were honest enough, you would see how that has blinded you so much. Do you even know what a Covenant is? No.
---Mark_V. on 1/8/11


Kathr 2: A Covenant is almost like a contract. Both are binding agreements. Contracts are equal bargaining positions and both parties are free not to sign the contract. A covenant is also an agreement, however it is not an equal contract. In the covenant the Lord list what He will require of those He rules. The final part of the Covenant lists the blessings for obeying, and the cursing for disobeying. He list the benefits that He will bestow upon His vassals if they follow the stipulations of the covenant. With Adam, God commanded him to tend the garden and also told him "but of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die." This covenant was binding.
---Mark_V. on 1/8/11


Since only God Himself is uncreated, there is a distance even between God and angels on this account.
---Cluny on 1/8/11


I do not believe in the Westminster Confession of faith.

There was no such Covenant made with Adam that if he OBEYED/works, That he would have eternal life.

The EVERLASTING covenant was made before the foundation of the world. That is a Covenant NOT OF WORKS.

There would certainly be a conflict of interest, if two completely opposing covenants were in place at the same time.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/11


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Thanks Mark V I'd have to agree with your statement.
---Pharisee on 1/7/11


--Craig, I believe that is not a very good question to ask since chapter seven, 1,2 do not speak about Adam or before Adam sinned or not.
-- Mark

(see below)

Do you see it now?
---CraigA on 1/7/11


CHAPTER VII
Of God's Covenant with Man.
I. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of him, as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.

II. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam, and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.
---CraigA on 1/7/11


Pharisee, I have always liked your motives and the spirit in which you answer questions. Concerning hell I agree with you. Whether the words pertaining to hell are literal or symbolic, they describe a very awful place by the words of Jesus. It is probable that the sinner in hell would prefer a literal lake of fire as his eternal place to the reality of hell represented in the lake of fire image by Jesus Christ. For if the images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol. The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself contain.
---Mark_V. on 1/7/11


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Craig, concerning the question you should have ask,
""why did God need to make a "covenant of works" with Adam that would guarantee him life? Adam at that moment already had life. He was without sin." all commands like naming the animals, to tend and keep the garden were of works also.
and the other command was to obey His Word and not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil are else he would die. If he obeyed he would have eternal life. Adam was not permitted to eat from the Tree of Life after he sinned. Before he ate of the Tree of Knowledge, he could have eaten from the Tree of Life, but instead he ate from the Tree of knowledge. As soon as he did eat, they were both kick out of the Garden.
---Mark_V. on 1/7/11


Read your Bible, ALL of this is in there.
---Leslie on 1/6/11

So are the words now we see through a glass dimly...

Obviously some more dimly than others, have a great day Leslie.
---Pharisee on 1/6/11


CraigA - I do not know what you are talking about when you mention a "covenant of works" that God made with Adam before sin - the Bible does NOT mention anything about this. The only thing it mentions that is close to this had to do with after sin, when God says that mankind will have to work by the sweat of their brow. The ONLY way that we could be in right relationship with God according to the Bible is by the shedding of perfect blood (by Jesus).
---Leslie on 1/6/11


Craig, I believe that is not a very good question to ask since chapter seven, 1,2 do not speak about Adam or before Adam sinned or not. What that chapter is describing is the distance between man who is a created being and God Almighty who is the Creator of all things. It is comparing us to Him. And if it was not for His choice to make a Covenant with man, we would have nothing at all. To Adam He made a covenant of works, obey and the promise was life, disobey and death would be the outcome. Adam failed, and death came to all man.
---Mark_V. on 1/6/11


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There has Always been a great distance between God and man...Both before the fall and after. God as creator, has all power, all knowledge and is everywhere at once. Man is....well, not much (tho he was created in the "image of God).

The gulf that Adam opened when he sinned, was that closed by Jesus because of His death and resurrection.
We are not "together" in the sense of being "on a eqaul plane". But we are RECONCILED to God.
2Cr 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation,
---Donna66 on 1/6/11


Craig 2: So the question you ask on the post had nothing to do with what you are now saying. That question did not come from what is written in chapter 7:1. It is not talking about spiritual separation. The Scriptures for that comment are provided so that you can look them up. And they all talk about the comparison between who we are and who God is. Man is but duct compared to God.

Now, what you should have posted was what you just said now, which is,
"why did God need to make a "covenant of works" with Adam that would guarantee him life? Adam at that moment already had life. He was without sin."
That is a good question and I would love to hear what others have to say.
---Mark_V. on 1/6/11


The reason why I ask the question is if there was no **SPIRITUAL** distance between God and man immediately after the creation and before Adam sinned, why did God need to make a "covenant of works" with Adam that would guarantee him life? Adam at that moment already had life. He was without sin.
---CraigA on 1/6/11


Pharisee - According to the Bible, you are WRONG. When Jesus Christ died and rose He took away ALL separation between God and mankind. Now the ONLY distance we have is because we CHOOSE it, NOT God. Also, if anyone does not choose Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior while alive, they will be ETERNALLY separated from God by Hell. Read your Bible, ALL of this is in there.
---Leslie on 1/6/11


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Leslie even though they had fellowship and the fellowship was later broken God was on the throne in Heaven and man upon the face of the earth.
THERE WAS DISTANCE even though that distance didn't include spiritual alienation as it is now. In the future that distance will be no more and God will dwell with people.

There's a difference and disagreeing with somebody over stuff that can't be proven isn't even intelligent. Maybe you should check your motive?
---Pharisee on 1/6/11


This is NOT true according to the Bible. The Bible in Genesis says that God walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the day before their sin. This indicates that God was INTIMATE with mankind and wants that intimacy still with them. The ONLY distance with God and mankind came AFTER their sin - because mankind was now spiritually dead and separated from God.
---Leslie on 1/5/11


Although it would have to be speculation I would agree with the premise.
The statement in revelation that says "the tabernacle of God is with men" is unprecedented, the closest thing I can recall to it is in Isaiah when the name Emmanuel is given.
This however doesn't make it truth either. It's one of those things that can't be proven until knowledge is completed in the translation of the saints into God's eternal Kingdom.
---Pharisee on 1/5/11


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