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Can Predestined Reject Christ

Can anyone who has been "predestined" or "ordained" to believe in Jesus Christ reject that faith when the Holy Spirit witnesses to his heart? Is there SCRIPTURE directly stating that irresistable grace is truth.

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Therefore, ... saints mentioned in the Scripture were His sheep and Christ died only for those who are His.
---christan on 1/12/11

How can a Gentile be chosen by God before they are born, when they are not of Jewish Ancestry and under the Everlasting Covenant God made with Abraham?
---David on 1/12/11

She's on right track...but, doesn't complete being unaware of other precept scripture. Unaware in totality who the remnants/Sheep are. Sheep are always Israel all 12 nations of. Lost Sheep were the divorced Northern House Nations who lost their married name an were mixed amongst "non-Israelites". Also explaining your question. Matt 15:24.
Judah equals 1/12 of Israel.
---Trav on 1/13/11


If God has elected (chosen) chosen only some to be saved, it follows that he has chosen the rest to be not saved, and therefore destined (by His will) for Hell

Now why would he do that if He wants all to come to repentance?
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/13/11

The only ones given "Laws" that could be broken was Israel. Both houses. Nth House did (divorced)....and Judah/Benj last.
Is it fair to punish for laws unknown? No.
Renpentance is granted to Israel. All Israel.
Heb 8:10-11. New Covenenant...New Law location.
Matt 15:24. Explains/points along with...hmmm... 5,000+ other verses.
---Trav on 1/13/11


Therefore, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King David & Solomon, Matthew, Luke, Mark, Paul, saints mentioned in the Scripture were His sheep and Christ died only for those who are His.
---christan on 1/12/11

Christan
You make some very good points, but these people you mention, were all Jewish, they were under a Covenant with God before they were born.

How can a Gentile be chosen by God before they are born, when they are not of Jewish Ancestry and under the Everlasting Covenant God made with Abraham?
---David on 1/12/11


"There is a remnant according to the election of grace. And, if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise, work is no more work." (Romans 11:5-6)

There's "a remnant," i.e. some of fallen mankind, who shall be everlastingly saved through Christ, it is "according to election" - God's own will and choice are the determinate rule, by which the saved remnant is measured and numbered. This is "election of grace," or a free, sovereign and unmerited act of God. The Apostle would not leave out the word grace, lest people should imagine that God elected them on account of something He saw in them above others.
---christan on 1/13/11


Repentance and faith, new obedience and perseverance, are not conditions of interest in the covenant of grace (for then it would be a covenant of works), but consequences, and tokens, of covenant interest:

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election [which is the standard of covenant mercy] might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:11-13).
---christan on 1/13/11




Alan, I too have wondered about that verse.

If God GIVES men the ability to repent AND that verse is directed towards the elect only, just what is God suffering through? His own plan?

Totally makes no sense.
---CraigA on 1/13/11


Mark ... Thanks for your reply ... but

If God has elected (chosen) chosen only some to be saved, it follows that he has chosen the rest to be not saved, and therefore destined (by His will) for Hell

Now why would he do that if He wants all to come to repentance?
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/13/11


MarkV: "Jerry, you know not what you are talking about and the reason you did not provide any Scripture. You said:
"If Jesus doesn't save you, then you are LOST! There is salvation in no other name."

How about ...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

BTW, "Jesus has to save all who are lost" is anti-biblical, and "The elect are lost until they come to Christ" is self-contradictory.

Face it, according to your own doctrine, you're LOST!
---jerry6593 on 1/13/11


Christian, how can they believe they come to Christ with no repentance no remorse, no faith, and then after they make a commitment to Christ without faith or repentance they expect to get all those things after. What does that tell you? That they have a false doctrine. How can they come to Christ without a repented heart? Or without faith? They need a conviction by the Holy Spirit in order for them to have a contrite heart and ask for forgiveness. What Kathr stated concerning her salvation was that she prepare herself for salvation instead of God preparing her for salvation. More self works. They don't understand that Spiritual birth is different then been indwell by the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 1/13/11


And if God has arbitrarily chosen whoever He wants to save before the world even began.....it doesnt even really matter if we believe what Calvinists do.
But yet they sure do like to push the matter and claim its for Gods glory...

Im still convinced it is a way to brag that God picked them and not you. Think about it. That is the only purpose it could serve.

And lastly...whoever calls upon the name of Jesus was obviously a "sheep" to begin with, so denomination wouldnt matter in that situation either. Without Gods approval they never would have called upon the name of His Son. You cant have it both ways.

Youre actually arguing against your own Lord and proving you dont even believe what you say you do.
---CraigA on 1/12/11




Does the word faith mean "confidence in Christ" or does it now mean "adherance to Calvinist doctrine"?

One type of faith saves you. One does not.
---CraigA on 1/12/11


Donna66,

What Kath means is that calvinist say you have to be born again of the Holy Spirit before you can get saved.

The Holy Spirit is not in anyone until they repent and believe. The Bible is clear about that. Then the Holy Spirit comes into their heart and seals them.
---ginger on 1/12/11


Donna66, you need not make any apologies for speaking the Truth. When the prophets, apostles and Jesus spoke the Truth from God, they never made any apologies to the people whose feelings were dented by the Truth of the Word. It's obvious that these people do not understand doctrines and presume that they do.

However, we must still love them and pray for them that God Almighty will show mercy and grace upon their souls as He did with ours. As Christ declared, "For man, it's impossible, for God all things are possible."

This declaration by Christ clearly screams at mankind that salvation for man is impossible, regardless of what they think or try to do to earn it.
---christan on 1/12/11


David, Jesus declared, "To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." John 10:3 - Your dictionary isn't going to tell you that Jesus knew His sheep by name.

Therefore, Abel. Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King David & Solomon, Matthew, Luke, Mark, Paul, saints mentioned in the Scripture were His sheep and Christ died only for those who are His. The elect salvation was a promise from the Father to the Son. And these are the "all" that God has given to His Son.

Scripture teaches us that God has chosen as He has declared and love it or not, it isn't going to change God's will as far as who He has chosen.
---christan on 1/12/11


Alan, He wants all of His children to come to repentance. Some of the elect have not even been born yet, they need to be physically born and spiritually born again in order for them to be saved. Election does not make someone save, it makes him chosen by God to be saved. Since God knows the day we will be born, He also knows the day we will die. God has an immense capacity for patience before He breaks forth in Judgment (v. 15, Joel 2:13, Luke 15:20, Romans 9:22).
Mean while He endures endless blasphemies against His name along with rebellion and murders, and on going breaking of the law, waiting patiently while He is calling and redeeming His own.
---Mark_V. on 1/12/11


Kath4453-- //Their teaching is very close to mormonism, believing themselves to have actually existed prior to their birth.//

I'm not sure who you are talking about here, but if you mean Calvinists, you certainly misunderstand.
God is outside of time. He surely "thought" of many things before they actually existed in time and space.
I'm not a Calvinist per se, but I've never heard any of them say they existed before their birth! That would be like saying animals existed before the earth was formed!

Also Calvinists do not claim they were BORN saved (as some people seem to think). Don't get upset. I'm not "taking anybody's side" here, just looking for accuracy.
---Donna66 on 1/12/11


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MarkV You say "But God is long suffering not willing that any should parish but for all to come to repentance"

You seem to be saying that God wants us all to come to repentance.

Why then do you insist that God will only allow a tiny proportion of humanity to come to repentance?

How can He want all to come to repentance, and yet predestine them to Hell.

Perhaps, in your theology, the words "want" and "wish" don't carry for Him the meaning that He has given to us. Same as His "just" "punishment" for "disobedience" don't carry the same meanings as He has given us for our dealings between ourselves
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/12/11


StevenG, you make a great point. God CREATED everything in teh first 6 days and it was all GOOD.

Man messed that up. And in Adam all die.

CHRIST, who is head of the NEW CREATION, has invited lost man( that means ALL of us) To receive HIM, being baptized into HIM to be part of the NEW CREATION.
Only those who reject His New Life in You, will and are still part of the old creation that will one day, along with the heavens and earth be destroyed.

You must be Born Again, Born a NEW CREATURE in Christ.

No one was pre-born again before they were born of Adam 1.
---kathr4453 on 1/12/11


Jerry, you know not what you are talking about and the reason you did not provide any Scripture. You said:
"If Jesus doesn't save you, then you are LOST! There is salvation in no other name."
Jesus has to save all who are lost. The elect are lost until they come to Christ. Just because they were elected or chosen by God, does not mean when they are born they are save. They are born just like everyone else. In sin. All descendants of Adam are born that way. But God is long suffering not willing that any should parish but for all to come to repentance. If God has not given you understanding to know that, it is not my fault. With all your knowledge you could only come out with that?
---Mark_V. on 1/12/11


--Can someone recommend a dictionary, so that I can read the Bible in it's proper context?
---David on 1/12/11

Westminster Confession of Faith

Valued more highly by some than the Bible itself it seems.

You can read anyones opinion of what the Bible teaches and follow their 50 verses at random throughout the book and label it as "Truth" or you can throw the opinions of men in the garbage, repent and ask Jesus Christ to make you a new creature, read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit teach you.

Biography vs. Relationship

There are numerous denominations that are easily offended at those who criticize the extrabiblical content they have based their whole set of beliefs on.
---CraigA on 1/12/11


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StevenG, you speak like a fool speaks, pretending to be wise and all knowing about who you think God is and how He should go about doing His will. For all your rhetoric and words of foolishness, this is Scripture judgement of you -

Isaiah 55:8,9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts."


Matthew 12:37
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified,
and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
---christan on 1/12/11


The "all" refers only to "All those the Father gives me."
---christan on 1/11/11

Christan,
You explained that beautifully.
I have wonderered how the Calvinist is able to overlook the word "All", as in Jesus died for "All".

So from what you have said, the word "All", actually means "Few", just like in other church denominations, the word "Everybody", as in "Everybody that sins, is a Slave to sin" doesn't mean "Everybody", and "Does not", as in (1John 3:9) has a different meaning than what what I was taught as a child.

Can someone recommend a dictionary, so that I can read the Bible in it's proper context?
---David on 1/12/11


yes of course and beneath this 3rd temple flows a mighty river...think it not so then read the scriptures!
---richard on 1/12/11


Steven G, I believe God did exactly as He wanted to do in the eternal plan He made. He did not have to get anyone's opinion or ideas what was right and what was wrong. What He purposed that He did and what we are seeing is the unfolding of His plan. And His plan was perfect. He is after all the Creator of all things.
From all eternity God designed that our world should be the stage on which He would display His manifold grace and wisdom in the redemption of lost sinners, "To the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the Church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus Our Lord" Eph. 3:11.
---Mark_V. on 1/12/11


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ALL Predestionalists are LOST! They believe that they were "chosen" (i.e., "saved") before they were born. But, Jesus came to save the LOST - not the saved or chosen. So, if they weren't lost, then Jesus doesn't save them. If Jesus doesn't save you, then you are LOST! There is salvation in no other name.
---jerry6593 on 1/12/11


I do not believe God is suffering, waiting for the wicked who reject Him to believe in Him. //
You don't believe MarkV BUT God says in his word that he is.
Are you saying you don't believe what God says through his word?
Or maybe the prophets and apostles made this stuff up, right?

Look up how many times God is grieved,saddened and angry and what caused God to be this way. Search for the truth without your bias.

Steveng is right.
---ginger on 1/12/11


Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Well, John, I guess you never heard of teh dispensation of the GRACE of God given Paul to YOU-WARD, meaning that in this dispensation GENTILES are brought near by the blood of Jesus Christ, who were once allianated from the Covenants made to Israel.

A dispensation where INDIVIDUAL believers, Jew and Gentile are made a NEW CREATURE in Christ, becoming one NEW MAN?
---kathr4453 on 1/12/11


Come on, folks.

God created everything. He said it was good. Do you really believe that God chose some of his creation and cast out the rest? God forbid! He gave us a choice: follow Christ and live forever or die in your sins. God created earth not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited. Every person on this planet can repent this very day and God would be pleased and he would not destroy it. But today's circumstances reveals the true nature of man's heart - evil.
---Steveng on 1/11/11


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DISPENSATIONALISM IS HERESY!!!
Started 1830 by a 15yr old witch by the name of Margaret Macdonald (Google it)along with the Pre-trib heresy.

John Darby (UK Pastor) visited her seances in Scotland. It was then brought to Amerca in the John Scoffield study Bible.

Dispensationalists actually believe that there will be animal sacrifices and a Third Temple.

SICK!!!
---John on 1/11/11


For all who has a mind to understand, consider this:

If every man was predestined, why would God waste his time and the killing of his son knowing that sending his son would be in vain? Christ's preaching of the gospel - the Kingdom of God and how to get there - would be in vain knowing that a small group of people were already chosen from the beginning.
---Steveng on 1/11/11


I do not believe God is suffering, waiting for the wicked who reject Him to believe in Him. He already knows where they are going. He has hardened their hearts for their rejection.
He says He is long suffering toward "us" believers and those who will believe, His children, not willing that any should parish. God endures endless blasphemies against His name, along with rebellion, murders and ongoing breaking of His Law, waiting patiently while He is calling and redeeming His own. 2 Peter 3:9.
---Mark_V. on 1/11/11


Unless one understands we are in the DISPENSATION of GRACE, one will never understand the reason God is LONGSUFFERING, that all will come to repentance. The dipensation of GRACE is WHOSOEVER will may come.


God KNOWS when this dispensation is over, that God's judgement is going to fall on all who had an opportunity to receive Jesus Christ and be saved.

God is longsuffering, because God has already stated He takes NO PLEASURE in the destruction of the wicked. However His Sovereign word has let us know it is a must.
---kathr4453 on 1/11/11


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Steven G, if you want to make a point give the passage. You say read Revelation, well Revelation has a lot to talk about. I could say to you read the Bible and it would be impossible for someone to answer, without providing the context where the word is found that you are speaking of. Election is found in many places. So why don't you read your Bible again or go to the website you talk about maybe you can get an answer from there. Then give me the passage and I will be more the happy to answer if I can.
---Mark_V. on 1/11/11


Steveng - "First, the elect is not all christians (read Revelation)."

When the Scripture says elect, it clearly points to those whom God has elected (chosen) for salvation. Eg, Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, King David and Solomon, Matthew, Mark, Paul are elects. In a way, Abel, Noah, Abraham are also Christians. Why? Simple, their sins were paid for by Christ's blood at Calvary.

"Second, read the verse very slowly: "...but that all should come to repentance."

The "all" refers only to "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37)

And God never gave everyone created to Christ!
---christan on 1/11/11


Mark_V: "God's promises are for the elect only, those who will come to Christ."

First, the elect is not all christians. (read Revelation)

Second, read the verse very slowly: "...but that all should come to repentance."

The elect and the christians have already repented. Should the elect and the christians repent again? Hogwash! All means all his creation.
---Steveng on 1/10/11


Craig, here is how they continue to contradict themselves over and over. They say they are the good clay, Romans 9-11, and Jacob, who God chose to be the head of a NATION, and earthly nation formed out of clay..that is earthly man.

All else are the vessels of dishonor God made to destroy. THEN they say, man had a choice. This is a complete contradiction to their own twisted theology.

Their teaching is very close to mormonism, believing themselves to have actually existed prior to their birth.

---kathr4453 on 1/10/11


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Ive actually read in the WCF where it says people receive the Holy Spirit and that enables them to believe on Jesus.

But yet I read scripture and it states we receive the HS AFTER believing in Christ.
---CraigA on 1/10/11


--Craig, the reason you and Kathr are arrogant concerning the Word of God is because you don't even know who God is in the first place.--

WOW! What brought that on?

Are you insinuating that Im a liar? That I dont believe Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and died for my sins and was raised again for my justification?

Its not too hard to figure out the nature of God when He came here in the flesh to show us WHO He is.

Please refrain from such remarks so we can continue to have a civilized discussion. I have not judged you as lost because we disagree. Do not judge me as lost either. That was totally uncalled for.
---CraigA on 1/10/11


Kathr, your interpretation of 1 Peter 1:23 is wrong. The word of God here is talking about the gospel. The Spirit uses the gospel to produce life. It is the truth of the gospel that saves (Romans 10:17. Your attempt to use the word "word" as Christ every time is wrong. Some times the word is the whole gospel, other times it is God speaking concerning some area of our lives. And in John 1:1 the word is "Christ."
---Mark_V. on 1/10/11


1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


David, Peter tells us we are Born again by the WORD of God, who IS Christ. This is why too they fail to understand the parable of the soils. They see themselves ans individual little gods, and do not see themselves IN CHRIST.

They don't even believe in the transforming work of the Holy Spirit,giving them a NEW HEART to obey, since on the 2 Chronicles 7:14 blog, which I questioned WHY do you all call yourselves wicked and evil, they alll hissed at me, as they still see themselves as WICKED and evil.

What a mess!
---kathr4453 on 1/10/11


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--Those who do perish, and go to hell, go because they are depraved and worthy only of hell and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ,--

So they made a choice? How can one make a choice if they dont have the power to do so?

Its not a "choice" if youve been predestined to make it.

So do you or don't you believe in predestination?
---CraigA on 1/10/11


They believe anyone in the OT who had faith was born again.
---kathr4453 on 1/8/11

Thank you Kathryn
You gave me the answer I was after.

Could you tell me why they believe Jesus had to die for the sins of everyone, if only a few are selected by God to be the elect, before they are born?
---David on 1/10/11


brethern. the bible is in place for us to read from beginning to end with the gift of the holy spirit and to live by that that dwells in us. when we pull scripture out and use it to defend God as you know Him then your missing something as a whole. God does not need man to speak for Him but to completly love Him and love the treasures He loves. the bible is anaccount of the progression of how mans relationship with God is restored. when you refer to yourself as calvinist baptist etc you identify yourself with man and not Christ. u may not be reconize in our predestined. our theological veiws will determine where our purpose lies. we are to assemble for that purpose.the road is narrow.love first
---cagirl on 1/10/11


Craig, the reason you and Kathr are arrogant concerning the Word of God is because you don't even know who God is in the first place. You want me to show you where in Scripture we learn about the Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience of God and His nature. You know why? Cause you have not studied to be approve. You only argue without even knowing God. You and Kathr have no clue who He is, and argue for no good reason but to mock the very Word of God. You think you are mocking me, but you are mocking the Word of God. You don't know God, how could you give your life to someone you don't even know? I suppose you too didn't have any faith, or conviction before you committed your life to Christ. That is evident by your answers.
---Mark_V. on 1/10/11


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Hebrews 6:4-6
---jim on 1/9/11


Steven G 2: Also His patience is not so he can save all of them, but so that He can receive all His own. He can't be waiting for everyone to be saved, since the emphasis is that He will destroy the world and the ungodly. Those who do perish, and go to hell, go because they are depraved and worthy only of hell and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ, not because they were created for hell and predetermined to go there. The path to damnation is the path of a non-repentant heart, it is the path of one who rejects the Person and provisions of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin. (Is. 55:1, Jer. 13:17, Ezek 18:32, Matt. 11:28, 13:37, Luke 13:3, John 3:16, 8:21,24, 1 Tim. 2:3,4).
---Mark_V. on 1/9/11


Thats really desperate, Mark.

Is it really necessary to change the meanings of words in the Bible to suite a belief? Wouldnt it be better to read them for what they say?

Its interesting that the meanings of words are changed in scripture that deny a selective salvation, but never questioned in ones that support it. Maybe you have interpreted those verses incorrectly and just dont want to admit it.

Just as his word says, He died for the sins of all men and tasted death for each of us.

It almost seems as thought the WCF has become the "word" for some and they simply look for Biblical support for it. Thats exactly what Mormonism does
---CraigA on 1/9/11


There is scripture that directly says, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)
And, Paul directly says, "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ," (Philippians 1:6)
And, "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5)
And when Peter denied Jesus, it was the prayer of Jesus that brought Peter back > Luke 22:31-32.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/9/11


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No they can not reject Christ. Believers are kept by the power of God and have an inheritance that will never be taken away and God caused us to be born again. (1 Peter 1:3-5) Believers are His adopted kids, according to the good pleasure of His will. (Eph.1:5)
---Tony on 1/9/11


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, God's Omniscient is revealed in Isaiah 46:9-10, for God declared the end from the beginning, the things not yet done...

I don't much know nor care who coined the phrase "Irresistible Grace", but I do Believe wherever sin abounds Grace does much more abound and is irresistible to those Foreknown to accept Christ !!!

All things work together for good to us that Love God, whom are the Called according to His Purpose. Whom God did Foreknow, He Predestinate to be conformed to the Image of His Son... Moreover whom He did Predestinate, them He Called : and whom He Called, them He Justified: and whom He Justified, them He Glorified. Rom.8:28-30
---Shawn.M.T. on 1/9/11


Steven G, the god you introduced from the passage in 2 Peter 3:9, is not the God of Scripture. God's promises are for the elect only, those who will come to Christ. Because if God was not willing that any should parish none would. Your interpretation is wrong, v, 7 speaks of those reserved for fire until the day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men" If He was not willing any should parish, why are ungodly men reserve for it? Second, the passage is talking to the beloved v.8 the "any" refers to those whom the Lord has chosen and will call to complete the redeemed, the "us." Since the whole passage is about God's destroying the wicked.
---Mark_V. on 1/9/11


"Do you need to be born again, since you come from your Mother's womb as the Sons of God, and if you do, what is the purpose of being born again?"

Though you think you mock a calvinist, you speak from your heart and of one who's not born of the Spirit of God. Be very careful of what you speak, Jesus declared,

Matthew 12:36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." 37 "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Question yourself, are you born of the Spirit of God? If you are, you will be justified by faith and the Truth lives in you.
---christan on 1/9/11


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Every calvinist has a different answer. According to MarkV, no one ever had free will. According to calvinists, those unelect can in no way say to God, why have you made me thus, stating God created the vessels of dishonor to be just that, vessels of dishonor.

You can't give up something you never had.

But then again, Markv states God made a covenent with Adam, a covenent of works that if Adam obeyed, he would have life.

So if that is the case, Jesus was plan b,(SINCE ADAM FAILED THE TEST) and with plan b, no one was pre-elected. I know, I know, you all are totally confused.
---kathr4453 on 1/9/11


Mark, can you please supply me scripture that says there is a separate call for the 'elect' that they cannot resist?

--God is Omniscient.--

Meaning he knows all things in the future before they even happen. Not just because he makes them that way.
---CraigA on 1/9/11


David, to answer your question of 1/8/11. You can be chosen to be in the Elect and not realize it. It is impossible to get saved or save any one as you are trying to change the outcome of an event that previously occurred [The Elect were chosen by God prior to creation]. But it is possible it come to the realization that God has chosen you. In doing so you become born again you renounce Free Will [Bing in a state of rebellion against God] and chose to follow God's plan for your life. As a member of God's family you well never me expelled [God has said, nothing can take you out of the palm of my hand]. Christ Died only for the Salvation of the Elect [Read all of John Ch. 17:6 - 19 Christ is praying only for those that God the Father gave him.]
---Blogger9211 on 1/9/11


david, the problem with the Calvinist definition of Born Again is totally different than what scripture teaches or what you or I understand. They believe it means being given teh ability to have faith to believe and be saved, or something like that.

The TRUE definition is we are a NEW CREATURE in Christ.

Born of the Spirit of the Life of THE RISEN LIFE OF Christ in us, becoming begotten sons through Jesus Christ.

They believe anyone in the OT who had faith was born again.

They totally diminish the meaning.
---kathr4453 on 1/8/11


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"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God doesn't want anyone to perish. He wants all people to come to repentance. He wants all his creation to come to repentance. Does that sound like predestination if he's hoping all would come to repentance?
---Steveng on 1/8/11


--"to the elect a special inward call"--

Im sorry Mark but since you put these words in quotes I assume they are taken from the word of God. I don't recognize them. What scripture is this?
---CraigA on 1/9/11


Craig, Any soul can resist Christ, just as any child can resist their own parent. A Christian is a person who "has" a relationship with Christ. Like any relationship, our relationship with Christ needs to be stirred up or cultivated through spending time reading the Scriptures, praying, worshipping him, singing to him, doing his will, etc. And the blessings for fostering a healthy and deep relationship with Christ are beyond words.
---Eloy on 1/9/11


Kathr, again you said,

"Again, the ONLY people God FOREKNEW were Israel."

So what you are saying is that God foreknew those from Israel but didn't foreknow about the Gentiles? Here is where you speak against the deity of God.
God is Omniscient. Knows all things, remembers all things and never learns something new that He didn't know beforehand, for He designed the plan. You are saying He didn't know those who were coming to Christ from the Gentiles only the those from Israel. Not True at all. Your theory does not support the nature, character or attributes of God.
---Mark_V. on 1/9/11


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Anyone and Everyone can reject Christ - it is called free will. Yes, we are predestined to be saved, but even then we have free will to reject Christ.
---Leslie on 1/8/11


Question?
This question is for anyone who believes Calvinism.

Do you need to be born again, since you come from your Mother's womb as the Sons of God, and if you do, what is the purpose of being born again?

I have always been a bit curious about this, and hope someone can answer this question in a way that I can understand.
---David on 1/8/11


JOHN 6,37 All that the Father giveth me SHALL COME TO ME, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise case out.
---RICHARDC on 1/8/11


We know predestination is in scripture. EXACTLY what is predestined is the question.

As far a foreknowedge of anyone, God clearly said to Israel:
Amos 3
1Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,

2You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Now try and reconccile that with a Gentile claiming to be foreknown....

Either you call God a liar, or you have mis-interpreted.
---kathr4453 on 1/8/11


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Romans 11
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Again, the ONLY people God FOREKNEW were Israel.

However God PREDESTINED man to be saved THROUGH JESUS CHRIST ALONE, and those who receive Him are PREDESTINED to be conformed to His Image.

God FOREKNEW man would sin.
---kathr4453 on 1/8/11


CraigA, No. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. [For] This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent. It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. [Therefore] It is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy. [Truly] As many as [have] been appointed to eternal life [believes]. [For these are] Those who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Rom.8:29>Eph 1:5>Jhn 6:29>.Phl 2:13>Romans 9:16>Act 13:48Jhn 1:13
---joseph on 1/8/11


Craig, if a person has been predestined to believe in Christ, how can they reject Christ? Pre means before hand, and destine means where they are heading. It has been predestined where they are going to go. If they did not go there, they would not have been predestined.
Irresistible Grace is a different topic altogether. Here in addition to the "outward general call" to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends "to the elect a special inward call" that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is rejected. whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected.
---Mark_V. on 1/8/11


Rejectors and mockers of predestination, the doctrine of predestination originates from the Predestinator, who is God Almighty. God created the world and all in it and nothing happenes outside of God's sovereign will and purpose.

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation." Acts 17:26

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11

You see, your rejection and mocking serves a Holy purpose for God.
---christan on 1/7/11


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There's no such thing as "predestination" of people,
If Adam was predestined to sin, then the whole thing is a sham!
---1st_cliff on 1/7/11


Irresistible Grace only applies to God's beloveds, those whom God only loved before the foundations of the world. God never loved everyone, that's why He clearly proclaims, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:13

And Paul reminds His fellow Christian brothers, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Yes, "free-will" has been predestined/purposed that one will reject election and predestination, clearly taught in the Scriptures.
---christan on 1/7/11


Craig, that scripture does not mean predestination. It does not say FORordained....but ordained.

Just like someone is ordained to be a pastor. One is ordained to LIFE when they receive Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/11


Well I can draw on my own experience to answer this, I have rejected the invitation earlier in life, and I know for sure now that I was foreknown of God.

I am aware of this, that I could have rejected Christ at the time that I did accept his invitation, but when God moves on you to reveal himself in Christ there is no point. In that way I find some truth in the irresistible grace idea but to state it as an absolute truth is reckless theology in my opinion.
---Pharisee on 1/7/11


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We aren't predestined to be saved. We are predestined to have the way to be saved available to us if we choose to accept it. Jesus made the way for our salvation and a way to God. He did that through giving his life for our sins,that whosoever believes in him,his life,death,and that he rose and lives sitting on the right hand of God,shall be saved if they repent,accept Christ and live for God. Nothing can take us out of the hand of God except ourselves. If we return to sin,and live like the sinner world,we take ourselves away from God. Jesus obeyed God,we too have to obey God and follow Christs example of life for God. We are debted to God for our opportunity to be saved through Jesus and therefore we owe it to him to live a righteous life.
---Darlene_1 on 1/7/11


When discussing predestination, there are always problems! The idea of predestination is not stated directly, but it follows from what is written......
---peter3594 on 1/7/11


The answer is NO as God the father has perfect for knowledge of every decision and action we will make and the results from it. I does not mean the elect by any means perfect God may still take them to the wood shed for corrective medication. And there is still the concept of the refiners fire where we are tempered from brittle iron to tempered steel to be better servants for Gods tasks for us.
---Blogger9211 on 1/7/11


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