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Explain Ephesians 1:6

What exactly does this verse refer to? Ephesians 1:6,
"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

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 ---mima on 1/11/11
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Thanks Trav,
My understanding-
The Bride defined by the Old Testament Prophecies pertain to Yirael.
Your Check/balance is appreciated.
---char on 2/5/11


Likewise always on check....balance....confirm. But, the interest was in seeing the wording your study put into place. 12 people....may word the same thing with twelve perspectives. All (with witnesses)will conclude the same thing. Many times with different refence points or unappreciated/unreferenced witnesses.
Your studies chex and balances me to.
YAH bless Char and all who seek truth....(and provide the witnesses,reconciling the time and times)
---Trav on 2/6/11


Thanks Trav,
My understanding-
The Bride defined by the Old Testament Prophecies pertain to Yirael.
But-the Church(Body of Christ)is the groom. Christ being the Head of His Body and "New Man" Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace,
Restored Yirael is to be the bride and Lamb's Wife of the "New Man"(Christ).This as an arranged marriage(custom).The Father has (chosen-predestined) the wife for His Son.
Prepared from times past-God has taken from Himself- as "One" Husband and [wife-Forsaken] and Now forgiven.Gen2:22
Jer31:31-33
Your Check/balance is appreciated.
---char on 2/5/11


Acts 28:25-28 ,Col:26-27,Rom16:25-27
Purpose-"Faith obedience"
Holy Spirit through "witnesss chosen before of God" Act10:41, during the final offer the children of Yirael of national repentance and obedience.
by Father as Yehovah, through prophets Heb 1:1-was rejectedZech6:12-13.Offer renewed in and by the Son-again-rejected Mt 23:37-39 "Acts is the 3rd and final presentation by the Holy Spirit-final rejection by the Nation(28:25-28).Acts 2 Jews and (resident-converted-proselytes)alone[2:10]"unto you (Jews) first"(3:26)then Gentiles.(9:15)
The rejection was for the purposed plan-Bride/groom.
-checks/balance appreciated.
The Reject was also kept secret mt 10:11,1Peter 1:10-12
---char on 2/5/11


Hidden until the period of Yirael's national probation was closed by [pronouncement of the decree].
---char on 2/3/11

Elaborate with scripture Char, on how you see this above. If you would. Curious if we are looking at the same thing, or you have a different angle.
---Trav on 2/4/11


Romans 16:25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I am crucified with Christ, It is no longer I but CHRIST in me, and the life that I now live in teh flesh, I live by the FAITH of the only BEGOTTEN Son who loved me and gave His life for me.


THIS is the Grace of God by which you are saved..Justified by His Blood, and SAVED by HIS LIFE!
---kathr4453 on 2/4/11




Markv, your condescending remarks are not necessary. Craig and char are correct.

Colossians 1:26-28

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Those IN CHRIST and Christ IN YOU make up the CHURCH, His Body.


Paul Clearly tells us WHAT the Mystery is, that was Kept Secret...CHRIST IN YOU.

No longer I but CHRIST IN ME!
---kathr4453 on 2/3/11


Romans speaks of the sinner In Christ, as having died and risen with Christ.
NOW-is Revealed of a further-cycle-the sinner not only died and rose again In-Christ, but is NOW In God's sight and purpose seated with Christ in the heavenlies.
"Great secret" individual sinners amoung Jews and Gentiles are being "called out" and formed into "the church" which is His body-neither Jew nor Gentile.That this church should be..."to the praise of the glory of His grace"

Hidden until the period of Yirael's national probation was closed by [pronouncement of the decree].
Acts 28:25-28 (all)
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
---char on 2/3/11


Craig, if you had read the passages correctly, you would have known that the mystery refers to truth, hidden until now, but revealed for the first time to the saints in the N.T. Such truths includes the mystery of the incarnate God (2:2,2, 9) Israel's unbelief (Rom. 11:25) lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:7), the unity of Jew and Gentile made one in the Church (Eph. 1:7,17,18, 3:8-10, 16-19).

Also, you are wrong in what you say, because some people in the Old Testament were indwell by the Spirit. The Spirit was clearly in Joshua (Num. 27:18) in Daniel (Dan. 4:8, 5:11-14, 6:3). The Spirit filled some in (Exodus 31:3, 35:31). Even John the Baptist had the indwelling of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 2/3/11


Regeneration is the New Birth, that comes through the FINISHED work of Christ. Christ's work was finished at Calvary, not before.

No one was made ACCEPTABLE IN Christ before Christ died and rose again. OT Saints were in Abraham's Bosom, until Christ rose from the dead!

No one in the OT was IN CHRIST or was Christ IN THEM in the OT. Those who are IN CHRIST are a New creature.

Israel was baptized into Moses.


Regeneration is named only 2 times in scripture...and not mentioned at all in the OT.

To FOLLOW Jesus in the Regeneration, is to follow Him in death and resurrection life!
---kathr4453 on 2/3/11


Kathr: Define 'Regeneration/the new Birth or Born Again' - We need to be sure what we are arguing about. Majority/minority often depends on how people understand something

Regeneration is especially hard, as it may mean a one-off (like born again ) or continual regneration (being improved by the Spirit) UNTIL death
---Peter on 2/3/11




Theres a difference between God dwelling WITH a man and God dwelling IN a man.

The Holy Spirit did not live IN men before Christ. That mystery was hidden from ages to generations and revealed at the time of Christ. (Col 1:25-29)
---CraigA on 2/2/11


Mima: The way I understand the original Greek, it seems that 'in the beloved' may also mean 'accepted to/for His beloved (Jesus), or that God's grace makes us accepted by Jesus (Jesus' sacrifice means God's grace which means we are accepted by Jesus)

Maybe?
---Peter on 2/2/11


MARKV, you are in the extreme minority to believe Regeneration/the new Birth or Born Again was in the OT.
---kathr4453 on 2/2/11

There is a regeneration/rebirth in the OT.
Chap 37 is witnessed by New Covenant N Heb 8:8.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
---Trav on 2/2/11


Kathr, again I say, what comes out of your mouth condemns you,

"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil thoughts come from within, and they defile a man" Mark 7:21-23.

You spoke from your heart. And you cannot deny it. I said it before that evil thoughts come out of your mouth.
---Mark_V. on 2/2/11


No markV they were not.

Jesus stated in teh Gospels to teh Apostles..those who FOLLOW ME IN THE REGENERATION....therefore no one before Christ's death and resurrection were REGENRERATED.

You are using the WRONG WORD, and regeneration is the WRONG word for you to use.

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
---kathr4453 on 2/2/11


Kahtr, you said to me,
"MarkV, yes it does appear you are doing the desires of your father..satan, the author of confusion, the father of LIES!!!"
Your last response to me on another blog came right out of your heart,
"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil thoughts come from within, and they defile a man" Mark 7:21-23.
It was the best answer you can give when you cannot answer Scripture, you answer with what is in your heart.
---Mark_V. on 2/2/11


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MARKV, you are in the extreme minority to believe Regeneration/the new Birth or Born Again was in the OT.

You have taken something that is given to us, through the FINISHED work of Christ ( yes, that is totally NT) and have cheapened it's meaning to mean nothing.

Many today are drawn by the Holy Spirit yet not regenerated. Hebrews 6 make that clear.

I only wonder if with your belief if you actually have been BORN AGAIN according to Scripture and a New Creation IN CHRIST, the Mystery that was kept secret in the Old, but Now revealed through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 2/2/11


Kathr, you still do not get it.
The Old Testament saints were "all regenerated by the Spirit," the reason they had faith and repentance. Regeneration is the act of the Spirit transforming a person. Only a few were "indwell" by the Spirit in the Old Testament. On others "He came upon them."
We are talking about three actions by the Spirit. Upon, made spiritually alive (regeneration), and indwelling. There is also Baptism of the Holy Spirit, in which all believers are joined together into one body in Christ and empowering for ministry. And also been sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit. A careful study will reveal this Truths.
---Mark_V. on 2/2/11


Most of those who had faith in the coming Lord, died without been indwell by the Spirit. But received the promise of salvation by Faith in the coming Christ.
---Mark_V. on 2/1/11


Thank you MarkV, this is what many here have been trying to tell you over and over. OT saints had faith WITHOUT first being indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

The EXACT same faith is available today. NO ONE has to first be indwelt by the Holy Spirit to have faith.

FINALLY!
---kathr4453 on 2/1/11


Kathr, I will explain it again. When the Holy Spirit brings those who are dead in sin, alive to Christ. That is called born of the Spirit. After Pentecost, the Spirit indwells those who believed by faith already, who make up the Church, who are alive to Christ, and baptized into the body of Christ, to empower them for ministry, guide them to all Truth, and cause them to walk in God's statues and to seal them with the Spirit.
Only a few were indwell by the Spirit in the Old Testament. To some the Spirit came upon them to empower them through faith to do work for the Lord. Gal. 3:5. Most of those who had faith in the coming Lord, died without been indwell by the Spirit. But received the promise of salvation by Faith in the coming Christ.
---Mark_V. on 2/1/11


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1."At Ephesus"-not found in some of the oldest MSS-addresses names of various churches
2.Revealed sinners not only died and Rose with Christ[But-Now]seated in Heavenlies
3.Vs 3 "blessed us with with All spiritual blessings in heavenly[places]in Christ
4.Individual sinners amoung Jews/Gentiles(ethnos)-being "called out" form "His Body" niether Jew or Gentiles-This church"to the praise of the glory of His grace.2:7
Was the "secret hid" from ages and generations-Not permitted "to make known unto the sons of men."(Col 1:26)until-period of Yisrael national probation was closed Acts 28:25-28
5. "One New Man" taught "All the truth" by the Holy Spirit.
---char on 1/31/11


--Craig, your answer that Israel hardened their hearts is just not good enough since they were never saved. If they had, they would have believed by faith as very few of them did.--

Hate to break it to you Bob, but your argument is with the HOly Spirit. Go read Hebrews 3.
---CraigA on 1/22/11


--if the Holy Spirit does not testify the person of Jesus Christ? doesn't that say... the person will remain the same? Lost?--Bob


If the Church were not on earth today testifying of Christ, no one would be saved.

The Holy Spirit today is working through the church, Christ's Body. We are His hands and feet on earth, testifying of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 1/22/11


The Holy Spirit DID testify of Christ..on the day of Pentecost. Thousands of Jews were saved. Even to this day, thousands of Jews are saved.
---kathr4453 on 1/22/11


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---Kathr, you blaspheme the Elect of God for your own purpose.---Mark_V

I certainly hope the word "Elect" in that statement referred to Jesus Christ. If it didnt it is a horribly arrogant statement.

What makes you so much more special to God than any other believer in Christ?
---CraigA on 1/22/11


Craig, your answer that Israel hardened their hearts is just not good enough since they were never saved. If they had, they would have believed by faith as very few of them did. The Spirit did not testify of Christ to them. And they were millions of them. If the Spirit had testified of Christ, they would have believed in the coming Lord by faith. That is why they refused.
---Bob on 1/22/11


Amen Craig.
You are right. The Holy Spirit testifies to ALL men.
Didn't Christ say he poured out his spirit on All flesh? I believe he did.
Joel and acts state this.
It does not say only the elect but ALL. This tells me that God has his hand stretched to all persons because the word says, God is no respecter of persons.
God calls all unto him through the Holy Spirit. God has his hand stretched out. It is up to man to take it.
Why? Because God wishes than NONE parish.
Salvation is to whosoever will accept God hand..Christ the savior who died for our sins.
Kath, great teaching again sis!
---ginger on 1/21/11


--if the Holy Spirit does not testify the person of Jesus Christ? doesn't that say... the person will remain the same? Lost?--Bob

Yes, Bob, that man would remain lost.

The problem with what Calvinists teach is nowhere in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit only testifies to a select group of people. That is an assumption based on the false belief that men cannot resist the call of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit directs states in scripture in Hebrews chapter 3 that is IS indeed possible for men to resist Him by hardening their hearts. We are expressly warned NOT to make the same mistake the children of Israel did (Heb 3:8)

God has done everything else for us. It is the man's responsibility to believe.
---CraigA on 1/21/11


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The fatal mistake of the Jews was that they came to believe that their election as God's special people was "unconditional."

God elected Abraham. that "all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" is repeated in Genesis 22, 26 and 28.
God chose Abraham as a means of blessing the others.

Israel was chosen to be His instrument in that saving purpose.

The Jews erred because they misunderstood the purpose of election. They interpreted election selfishly as if it were their privilege to sit down in isolation and contemplate their good fortune. They thought that God's choice of them meant His rejection of all others. And they compounded their error by assuming that their election was unconditional.
---kathr4453 on 1/21/11


How does one become a SON???Not one thing about God picking and choosing.


John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Galatians 4:5
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
---kathr4453 on 1/21/11


Kathr, you blaspheme the Elect of God for your own purpose. The words from your mouth have venom. They condemn you every time you speak. Nothing and nobody can change your behavior, only God.
---Mark_V. on 1/20/11

Might I ask how she did that when she gave scripture?

And how does one do that?
Only the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed.

Anyway, do we clean ourselves up before coming to Christ?
or after?
I say after because we can't clean ourselves up. Only Christ can do that.

Remember, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We need Christ's spirit to make us stronger than our flesh so we can put down the sins of the flesh.
---ginger on 1/21/11


The adoptable child may have a preference, but he does not make the CHOICE. The parent chooses the child.
---Donna66 on 1/20/11


Donna66, adoption here is not as humans would choose.

God did not Choose anyone outside of Christ. Yet, you were not already IN CHRIST when you were born either.

"You have received the Spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba [Daddy]! Father! '"

Donna66, this comes AFTER we receive Jesus Christ. We are begotten sons through Jesus Christ....We are not individuals up for adoption that God picks and chooses!

Sons is now our Standing In Christ.
---kathr4453 on 1/21/11


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Craig, you mentioned that the Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus Christ and then we believe in Him. So my question now is what happens if the Holy Spirit does not testify the person of Jesus Christ? doesn't that say that without that testimony the person will remain the same? Lost? I hear you say the truth, but I see you don't believe what you know is truth for some reason, that is why I was wondering and asked you.
---Bob on 1/21/11


donna66, Paul never BOASTED that he was an elect person. Paul BOASTED in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul said, I am not ashamed of the Gospel.

Paul Boasted IN CHRIST, not in his own election.

As a matter of fact Paul said, 1 Corinthians 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.


---kathr4453 on 1/21/11


D onna66, please don't forget to read verses 1-5 before reading verse 6, THEN read all teh verses after to get a perfect understanding of Ephesians.

We ONLY THROUGH CHRIST have been made sons. We have become sons, Begotten through Christ. It took Jessu death and resurrection to bring any sons into Glory, called the Church.

Notice how many times the word WE is used.

The WE here is the Church, the HEAVENLY BODY.

Whosoever will may be part of the Elect Church, who put their faith in Christ.
---kathr4453 on 1/21/11


Kath4453// Calvinists believe this means to BOAST, day and night... THEY are the Elect and YOU are going to Hell//

At first I was not going to speak to this false charge,because it's not what I have read on CN (We are talking about the same site aren't we?) Whether you became a Christian by your choice, or by His choice, you are still bound for heaven.

I do see this scripture as pointing to God's choice of us (not vice-versa) because "making us accepted in the Beloved" is something only Christ can do through His blood. Our desire to "belong" won't bring it about. He has adopted us into His family. The adoptable child may have a preference, but he does not make the CHOICE. The parent chooses the child.
---Donna66 on 1/20/11


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Bob, there are lots of things that I dont understand about God. Noone has all the answers. There are some things we must just accept by FAITH.

How the Holy Spirit is able to influence someone without directly controlling their actions is possibly something we dont have the capacity to understand now. I will not **speculate** and call it "Truth". Some people here dont know where scripture ends and their opinions begin.

All I do know is scripture tells us the Holy Spirit was sent AFTER Christ ascended, He testifies of Jesus Christ, and AFTER we believe in Jesus Christ He SEALS us with His presence.
---CraigA on 1/20/11


--Craig, if you speak for God why are you oppose to God saving whom He wills?--Bob

Bob, if you speak for God why are you opposed to God desiring to save the whole world?

I can do this all day long. Lets not be judgemental shall we.

---Doesn't God have to make him willing?--Bob

Absolutely NOT, Sir.

The WILL to change is there. The POWER to change is not. (Romans 7:18) We were without strength (Romans 5:8)

The Holy Spirit directs us towards the Lord Jesus Christ, because in Him lies the atonement and the POWER to change!
---CraigA on 1/20/11


Craig, I also would like for everyone to be saved. The reason we give the good news. But you are expecting the person to change himself. How can he change himself? Doesn't God have to make him willing? Give him faith to believe, and convict his heart so that he can turn to Christ for forgiveness and repentance? Can you explain how he is able to do that without a changed heart? please do not get mad at me for asking. I just wonder what your thoughts are.
---Bob on 1/20/11


Kathr, you blaspheme the Elect of God for your own purpose. The words from your mouth have venom. They condemn you every time you speak. Nothing and nobody can change your behavior, only God.
---Mark_V. on 1/20/11


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Craig, if you speak for God why are you oppose to God saving whom He wills? Something inside of you influences you to deny God that right to choose, because it's written in Scripture. Do you not realize all protestant church's came from work believes? Here is another point to be made, just about everyone of you who argue against God choosing, get very angry and say many terrible words to others. The evidence of rebirth is hardly seen. Kathr even sounds evil. Whatever influences most of you to argue, is in control of the emotions which shows by the words that come out of the mouth. They are very bad.
---Bob on 1/20/11


---Craig, can you give a reason why you oppose for God to save anyone He so wants to save? Why is it such a terrible thing to you?
---

Wow Bob, Im dissapointed. Who said I opposed God saving anyone? I love the whole world. He put that love IN me when he saved me! I want everyone to come to repentance and the knowledge of the truth to be saved.(2 Peter 3:9)

There is not a single person who has done evil against me that I would wish to spend an eternity in hell. Not one!

Do you honestly expect me to believe that this desire to tell everyone about Jesus Christ so they can be saved comes from the heart of the sinful man that I am? Did satan give me this love?

No, sir. That love comes from God (Romans 5:5)
---CraigA on 1/19/11


Psalm 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/11


Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed [it] unto them.


WOW what an indictment against the ELECT of God, who alone only know truth.

We certainly don't know truth, as we've been told over and over here on line. Only the Elect do!!

SO is God's sovereign will that YOU hold the TRUTH in unrighteousness???

Don't think YOU will escape God's WRATH!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/18/11


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Kathr, the first half of your answer is true

"Interestingly Calvinists believe this means to BOAST, day and night, in season and out of season, 24/7/365 here on CN"
Yes Kathr, we boast day and night in the power of God. His sovereignty and His right to Rule over all things.
You also said, as if you were God and could see our hearts,

"THEY are the Elect and YOU are going to Hell."

Again you change the Truth to a lie. "Who shall bring a charge against God's Elect? It is God who justifies, who is him who condemns? It is Christ who died, and further more is also risen"
But you act as God to condemn God's Elect. What comes out of your mouth condemns you.
---Mark_V. on 1/18/11


Ephesians 1:6,"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.".

Interestingly Calvinists believe this means to BOAST, day and night, in season and out of season, 24/7/365 here on CN, THEY are the Elect and YOU are going to Hell.


This is what brings God Glory, as All Calvinists ( not the unelect, praise God for His Selective Sovereignty, while no one can do anything about it.

Yea for those guys!


---kathr4453 on 1/18/11


Alan, you haven't to this day presented any passages to your theory. You know why? Because there is no such passages that say God gave man free will. If there was, then Scripture would contradict. And we would never know what is the Truth. While you are not happy God has His own way of doing things, you want to conform Him to your own understandings of what is right and what is wrong. I put Scripture in front of you, you completely ignore it, refuse to listen to what Scripture tells you of who you were before God made you alive. It's in plain sight. Only a blind man can miss it. And the blind do miss it, you know why, cause they are not spiritual. But you are, so why do you not see it?
---Mark_V. on 1/17/11


Alan 2: It's in plain sight. Scripture.
"And you He (God) made alive" Who did He made alive? the believers Paul is talking to. And he goes on to say,
"in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience among whom also we all once walk" Everyone of those believers before they were made alive, walked according to the world, according to the prince of the power of the air. No exceptions Alan.
"among who also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, following the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature children of wrath"
---Mark_V. on 1/17/11


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Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
---micha9344 on 1/17/11


Ephesians 1:6

God gives His abundant riches to Christ,( Phil 1) and because we are in Christ, we are recipients as well.

Christ is accepted by the Father and we are accepted because of our relationship to His Son.

Only those who receive Christ and are baptized into Christ have been made ACCEPTABLE.

God extends His grace to us because we are in Christ, not before we are In Christ.

Who are WE? Jew and Gentile, making ONE NEW MAN. IN CHRIST.

In the OT, Israel was ELECT.
In the NT, Jew and Gentiles are REDEEMED!
---kathr4453 on 1/17/11


Here clearly CHRIST is the ELECT ONE!

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.


1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you, and so doth Marcus my son.

Here clearly the Elect are those IN CHRIST, called the Church.

---kathr4453 on 1/17/11


Alan, when you think about it, If God really chose who He wanted and rejected those He didn't, Wouldn't God also make sure that ALL He chose for His Glory would be pefectly SINLESS in this life.

If one does not have free will before salvation, why on earth would God give free will to SIN after He elected.

MarkV is actually saying no obedience necessary even after salvation., God just picks randomly.

No according to Eph 1:6 WE ARE TO BE TO THE PRAISE OF THE GLORY OF HIS GRACE.
---kathr4453 on 1/17/11


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MarkV .. God has given us commands regarding the way we live. Your theory requires God to break all those rules.

Why do you always insist that we reject God's sovereignty? Because we do not.

The poassages you often quote sit very comfortably with those the show Jesus & God giving us the power to choose, yet you ignore hte latter, so that you can beleive in your tyrant.
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/17/11


Alan 2: you also said,

"We say that it means God is so great that He grants free-will, so He does not have to play dictator. He can be a real King"
God's love for people is different. Was He a dictator when He ordered the slaughter of millions who never had a chance to use what you call free will? God rules Alan. For He is God. There was millions of people women and children and babies who were slaughtered by God's commands. That never had a chance to exercise what you call free will. Is that the love you were looking for? yes, it was love and mercy for Israel, but judgment to all others. Sure they were corrupt, but so were the Israelites. They were idol worshipers. Yet God show mercy and love for them.
---Mark_V. on 1/17/11


Alan, I know you have a theory, and you have given it many times. But you refuse to believe Scripture Truth. Bob posted the very same passages I have posted before. How can you reconcile the Word of God if it is right in front of you? You read it. You know what it says. yet as a believer you don't believe it. Why? You, He made alive who was dead in trespasses and sin," and He even says who you were before He made you alive. Gives every detail of who man was following and who he was, a child of wrath, before He made them alive, and yet you refuse. Why?
I know you don't like that but it is the Word of God. How do you live rejecting His Word?
---Mark_V. on 1/16/11


Please don't go on about God being Omnipotent, for we all know that He is. None of us dispute it.

What we differ on is what that Omnipotence means

We say that it means God is so great that He grants free-will, so He does not have to play dictator. He can be a real King

You say that He is weak and cannot allow free-will, that the only way He casn demonstrate His Omnipotence is by making Himself a dictator.
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/16/11


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Craig, can you give a reason why you oppose for God to save anyone He so wants to save? Why is it such a terrible thing to you? You fight each day against His sovereign will, ability and omnipotent power. And you know He will's those because you have read it in Scripture, why do you disapprove? Why is it so important to be against Scripture?

Here is who we were before God made us alive,
"in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience among whom also we all once conducted ourselves"
You say it is not true, you did not give God permission.
---Bob on 1/16/11


James L
You can't choose to be convinced of something. That is illogical.
A statement worth repeating.

Man always wants to be in control (at least in Western Civilization) and take credit for whatever good comes to him. (but not the bad,of course). Eph 1:6 should be a lesson in humility, for it shows God as both the source of our salvation and the deliverer of it to us.
---Donna66 on 1/16/11


BUT what is compromised is scripture and sound reason. John 1:13 says we are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." ---James_L on 1/15/11


Jesus explains John 1 in John 3 that one must be Born again of the Spirit.

Now this may have been NEWS to Gentiles, but not to Jews.

If we already have recorded Jesus came to SAVE His people from their sin, and many long awaited the Messiah, for salvation....what is the big mystery here.

The SPIRIT was PROMISED in the OT to Jews. Even to Abraham.

NOW you Gentiles can be partalers of the promise of the Holy Spirit, just as Paul told the Galatians. That the PROMISE of the Spirit would come on the Gentiles
---kathr4453 on 1/16/11


CraigA,
You're right that God's sovereignty wouldn't be compromised by man being able to choose Christ.

BUT what is compromised is scripture and sound reason. John 1:13 says we are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." There you've compromised scripture.

You would not dare choose salvation in Christ if you weren't convinced that He could save you. Right??

So you become convinced that Christ can save you, then choose to be saved? NO

When you become convinced, the bible calls that faith (Rom 4:21-25). Before you ever get around to choosing, salvation is already done.

You can't choose to be convinced of something. That is illogical.
---James_L on 1/15/11


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--Salvation was decided before God created the world.
-- Christan

Noone is arguing that point. The argument is over WHO God has decided to save. Some say only a few chosen elite, others say it is His will that none perish.

Noone is arguing that God is not sovereign either. I personally think its insulting to Him to suggest that although God is all-powerful, all-knowing and present in all places at any given time, that if He grants men the ability to choose if need to be rescued from their sin that somehow compromises His sovereignty! It absolutely doesnt! The judgement is still coming regardless of what we choose!
---CraigA on 1/14/11


It is simple God through Jesus gave us life even though we are sinners and deserved to die. A payment that could NOT be repayed.
---Scott on 1/14/11


Neither Joshua or Ephesians is about individual election, ...
Only the mature, heavenly minded christian can see and understand.
---kathr4453 on 1/13/11

By your own words
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

(This one is interesting...to a believer... although addressed to men)
5: 6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon children of disobedience.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it,
---Trav on 1/14/11


Paul, the apostle of the gentiles,writing to the BoC "saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:"(which includes us)"wherein he hath made US accepted in the beloved."
"In whom WE have redemption through his blood" (Crosswork)
Salvation came to the Gentiles, as a result of the finished work of the Cross ref, 1 Cor. 15:1-4

---michael_e on 1/14/11


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The Letter was NOT written to the Ephesians, but to the Laodicians(Col 4:16). It was mislabeled Ephesians. (The 1st line does not exist.)

The text you are referring to Mima is the beginning of a Hymnal Prayer (A Psalm).

Saul's Hymnal which he Cantor(Sang) continues until the end of the 1st chapter. (Amen)

So you would need to encompass the entire Prayer to understand
---John on 1/13/11


Ephesians parallels Joshua. As the Land was the Promise God made to Israel,with all it's blessings, division of land, and life in obedience to God, never to look back at egypt=world.

The Church, who is Christ is OUR promise land, with it's heavenly calling, blessings IN CHRIST, crucified to this world, and the Hope of our calling.

Neither Joshua or Ephesians is about individual election, but about promise, victorious life, blessings snd purpose.


Only the mature, heavenly minded christian can see and understand.



---kathr4453 on 1/13/11


Answer to blog question is found in Old Test and Eph 2:12 ...aliens from commonwealth of Israel,strangers from covenants of promise, having no hope,without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us,

Wall of separation is between Judah and the Divorced Nth House nations of Israel.
Divorced...they were without hope. Aliens to the common-wealth of Israel.

Reconciled two parties of New Covenant. Heb 8:8.
Jeremiah 46:27
But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off,
---Trav on 1/13/11


mima, does anyone know how a letter is constructed? The first thing in a letter should be the subject, then we have the body, and then the conclusion.

How can anyone KNOW the explination of the subject unless you read the body. The conclusion is also important because it SUMs UP the whole context.

The body and conclusion state Jesus will present to Himself a Church without spot or wrinkle.

Conclusion, the CHURCH is HIS BODY...bone of His bone, Flesh of His flesh.

Therefore EPHESIANS is about the CHURCH, not individual election.


TOO many questions here take one verse and never read scripture before and after.
---kathr4453 on 1/13/11


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His grace is His action of the Holy Spirit in us to make us become how Jesus is, "in this world." (1 John 4:17) So, grace makes us pleasing to our Father like Jesus is, and has us enjoying His love (Romans 5:5, John 17:23,26). So His grace is not distant, but God acting in us (Philippians 2:13).

The glory of this, in us, is the shining and beauty of His love in His love's "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (in 1 Peter 3:4) This makes us so pleasing to Him and praises Him, by how we are, not just our say-so praising.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/13/11


Ephesians 1:6 must be read in context with v1-5, not by itself. Paul reminds the Ephesians Christians of their salvation and how it came about.

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God..."
His apostleship is of God's will.

4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"
Salvation was decided before God created the world.

5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
It's God's will.

Verse 6, only He is praise and glorified for saving His people in Christ.
---christan on 1/12/11


I see Eph 1:5-12 together as a sort of doxology. Verse 12 also says "so that we...might live for the praise of His glory.

I see that praise of His glory in Rev 5:13-14:
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing, "To the One seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever."
---James_L on 1/12/11


Mima, my interpretation of Eph. 1:6 goes together with v. 4,

"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"

Those are the elect chosen from the foundation of the world. So v.6 is saying, that the ultimate purpose of election to salvation is the glory of God (v. 12, 14, Phil. 2:13, 2 Thess. 1:11,12).
---Mark_V. on 1/12/11


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It is the grace of Jesus Christ that makes us acceptable to the father. This verse has reference to the glory of his grace it is the glory of this grace which we will spend eternity meditating on and praising the Lord for!!!
---mima on 1/12/11


I believe that "Ephesians 1:6" is saying we are His children, and trust in Him to make us acceptable to give the Lord the praise and glory for His Work.
---Kimbe7395 on 1/11/11


Ephesians 1:6 is proof the Apostles got drunk. Here the apostle Paul is drunk with praise for God. Honestly this doxology here in the opening chapter of Ephesians is fully reflective of the majesty of our God.

To put that verse simply is to say, he has adopted us (ver 5) so that the kindness he had given us in his dear Son would be praised and given glory.
---Pharisee on 1/11/11


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